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View Full Version : what is this in Ca. ? AOW or C&R SBR/SBS ?


Jeepers
05-04-2012, 2:46 PM
this is listed as a AOW but cant it also be considered a SBR/SBS under CA. law ?
not looking at buying this myself but found it while surfing AOW's and got me wondering .....

Springfield M-6 Scout orig 14 inch barrel
U.S.G.I. M6 SURVIVAL RIFLE/SHOTGUN AOW BY THE ITHACA GUN CO. "C&R" RATED .410/.22 SINGLE SHOT AOW.... THIS IS A MINT CONDITIONED U.S. AIRFORCE PROPERTY MARKED FIREARM..... THE M6 WAS USED DURING THE 1950's AS A DOWNED-PILOT/AIRCREW SURVIVAL WEAPON.... IT WAS SPECIALLY MADE AND ISSED TO US AIR FORCE AIRCRAFT CREWS IN THE EVENT OF A PLANE CRASH... THIS STACKED BARREL, DUEL CALIBER FIREARM IS CHAMBERED IN .410 AND THE .22 HORNET ROUNDS.... THE MOVEMENT OF A KNOB ON THE HAMMER ALLOWS YOU TO CHOOSE WHICH TYPE OF AMMO IS FIRED.... THE WEAPON IS HINGED IN THE CENTER TO ALLOW IT BE FOLDED TO FIT INTO THE COMPACT CONFINES OF AN AIRCRAFT AND SURVIVAL KIT..... THE BUTTSTOCK ALSO HAS A HINGED TOP COVER WHICH HOUSES AN AMMO STORAGE COMPARTMENT.... BESIDES BEING U.S.A.F. PROPERTY MARKED, THE RECEIVER ALSO HAS THE "CROSSED CANNONS" ORDNANCE MARKINGS AND THE GOVT INSPECTORS INITALS AS WELL... THE M6 IS A COOL LITTLE GUN.... MOST OF THESE GUNS THAT WE HAVE EVER BEEN OFFERED WERE "LIBERATED" FROM THE U.S. AIRFORCE (AKA STOLEN WITH NO PAPERWORK AND USELESS UNLESS JAIL IS YOUR THING) ....WE HAVE HAD VERY FEW OF THESE THAT WERE FULLY TRANSFERABLE.... HERE IS A RARE MILITARY FIREARM IN SUPER CONDITION THAT IS MISSING FROM MOST U.S. MILTARY WEAPONS COLLECTIONS ..... AND IT TRANSFERS ONLY WITH A $5.00 TRANSFER TAX..... ALSO CAN TRANSFER DIRECTLY IF PURCHASER HAS A C&R LICENSE $3,595
source http://autoweapons.com/products/othergoodstuff.html

pics here http://autoweapons.com/photos10/sep/ithacm6.html

http://autoweapons.com/photos10/sep/ithacm6o.jpg
http://autoweapons.com/photos10/sep/ithacm6x.jpg
http://autoweapons.com/photos10/sep/ithacm6m.jpg

EBR Works
05-04-2012, 3:44 PM
It's a C&R SBR/SBS. Legal in California!

ke6guj
05-04-2012, 3:54 PM
it is a C&R AOW. it must be transferered as an AOW. But as a registered AOW, it is exempt from CA's SBS/SBR law even though CA would consider it to be both an SBS and an SBR.

I can see the roster applying to this as well, which can be an issue if you need to SSE exempt it (since the only reason it is an AOW is because it is multi-barrel. if you plug one barrel is it still an AOW?). Oh wait, it is C&R so it is exempt from the roster

ElvenSoul
05-04-2012, 4:01 PM
About the same as this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TP-82

Capybara
05-04-2012, 4:14 PM
Jack, how could it be an AOW with a butt stock?

ClarenceBoddicker
05-04-2012, 4:25 PM
Wow, prices have sure gone up in 20+ years...

Jack, how could it be an AOW with a butt stock?

^ This. A lot of CA gun laws follow Fed gun laws. Acording to the Federal 1934 NFA: AOW are handguns that can be smoothbore, have a 2nd handgrip, a "gadget" gun that does not have a grip at an angel to the bore or is not recognizable as a firearm. It can never have a butt stock as handguns are not shoulder fired.

A SBS or SBR can be made from a pistol, handgun or non shoulder weapon if it has a butt stock. Barrel length is the main concern with them.

dantodd
05-04-2012, 4:37 PM
Is it because the two barrels are not both smoothbore like a double barrel shorgun? Are all combination or drilling guns AOWs then?

Or is it the fact that when folded it doesn't look like a gun? How is this different than an AR-7 then?

EBR Works
05-04-2012, 4:40 PM
Jack, how could it be an AOW with a butt stock?

Was wondering that myself....

ke6guj
05-04-2012, 4:47 PM
Jack, how could it be an AOW with a butt stock?

Was wondering that myself....

there are some AOWs that have shoulder stocks.

Is it because the two barrels are not both smoothbore like a double barrel shorgun? Are all combination or drilling guns AOWs then?
yup, because it is a combination gun with barrels <18". combination guns with barrels >18" are not AOW.



479.11 Meaning of terms.

Any other weapon. Any weapon
or device capable of being concealed
on the person from which a
shot can be discharged through the
energy of an explosive, a pistol or
revolver having a barrel with a
smooth bore designed or redesigned
to fire a fixed shotgun shell,
weapons with combination shotgun
and rifle barrels 12 inches or more,
less than 18 inches in length, from
which only a single discharge can
be made from either barrel without
manual reloading, and shall include
any such weapon which may be
readily restored to fire. Such term
shall not include a pistol or a revolver
having a rifled bore, or rifled
bores, or weapons designed, made,
or intended to be fired from the
shoulder and not capable of firing
fixed ammunition.

EBR Works
05-04-2012, 5:09 PM
Jack, I learn something every time I see you. I hereby officially knight thee as "knower of all NFA minutia" :thumbsup:

So, how does this work:

ALSO CAN TRANSFER DIRECTLY IF PURCHASER HAS A C&R LICENSE $3,595

ke6guj
05-04-2012, 5:19 PM
So, how does this work:

forgetting about CA law for a moment.

federally, the buyer (if he had an 03FFL) could submit a Form 4 with his 03FFL info on it, and when the Form 4 was approved, the seller could ship it directy to the buyer, even if we were in other states. The 03FFL lets me receive C&R firearms across state lines (even if they are NFA items) without needing to use an instate FFL to facilitate the transfer.

this does not work if the buyer is a trust (since a trust cannot get an 03FFL). Currently, you would need CLEO sign-off to get that. And with that being a C&R gun, you might be able to find more CLEOs willing to sign off on something like that vs. a modern SBR or SBS.

Now, with regards to CA, since the barrels are <16", in my opinion, CA considers them to be pistols. Because of that, it has to go through a dealer in CA, even for C&R pistols.

EBR Works
05-04-2012, 5:28 PM
Interesting..

ke6guj
05-04-2012, 5:37 PM
now, if ATF does actually remove the CLEO sign-off, if I wanted that AOW, we could submit the Form 4 with my 03 info on it, once it was approved, I could fly out to the seller, take possesion at the seller's house, and then import it back to CA and fill out a C&R handgun importation form.

Capybara
05-04-2012, 8:24 PM
Thanks for the details Jack, you are a the man when it comes to the minutiae of NFA.

CSACANNONEER
05-04-2012, 8:32 PM
Wow, prices have sure gone up in 20+ years...



^ This. A lot of CA gun laws follow Fed gun laws. Acording to the Federal 1934 NFA: AOW are handguns that can be smoothbore, have a 2nd handgrip, a "gadget" gun that does not have a grip at an angel to the bore or is not recognizable as a firearm. It can never have a butt stock as handguns are not shoulder fired.

A SBS or SBR can be made from a pistol, handgun or non shoulder weapon if it has a butt stock. Barrel length is the main concern with them.

It's all about the markings. I could make the same thing out of my 18" one for a $200 tax stamp. Then, all I'd have into it would be $285 and a hacksaw blade. Yea, 8 years ago I paid $85 for mine at my lgs.

Jeepers
05-04-2012, 11:34 PM
it is a C&R AOW. it must be transferered as an AOW. But as a registered AOW, it is exempt from CA's SBS/SBR law even though CA would consider it to be both an SBS and an SBR.

I can see the roster applying to this as well, which can be an issue if you need to SSE exempt it (since the only reason it is an AOW is because it is multi-barrel. if you plug one barrel is it still an AOW?). Oh wait, it is C&R so it is exempt from the roster

thank you now i understand a little better

i did not realize that its federal AOW status would exempt it from the CA SBS/SBR

Capybara
05-05-2012, 12:21 AM
So Jeepers, you going to go for it? ;-)

Jeepers
05-05-2012, 2:22 AM
So Jeepers, you going to go for it? ;-)

you know if i wasn't poor as dirt i would love to pick it up , but to do that i would have to sell my Jeep and then i would have to have my username changed to "the artist formerly known as Jeepers " and thats just to much to remember so forget it , its fair game ...LMAO

Capybara
05-05-2012, 10:05 AM
While I think it is a really cool little gun and I am sure that it is collectible, I wouldn't ever consider it for that kind of money. I mean, how exciting would it be to shoot and how boring would it be owning a gun that you couldn't even shoot because it would diminish the value?