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mpwang
05-03-2012, 6:40 PM
I have a friend who had a negligent discharge of a pistol inside an apartment. The local PD took possession of the weapon as evidence (he presumes). How long do you think it will take to get it back?

Thank you

CSACANNONEER
05-03-2012, 6:43 PM
TWO WEEKS

sammy
05-03-2012, 6:46 PM
Depends.

Did he kill anyone? If he did it will take a while longer than 2 weeks. If not I would call and ask. :shrug:

cntrolsguy
05-03-2012, 6:46 PM
Does he have a receipt from the pd?

Bladewurk
05-03-2012, 6:51 PM
If he's charged with a crime maybe never. If not and he has a clean record it will take a LEGR form from DOJ and the fee $$ ,and then he will get it only if the Firearm is in the AFS as belonging to him.
The clock is ticking some PDs destroy after 45 days and the DOJ paperwork takes weeks...gotta get busy.

Oceanbob
05-03-2012, 6:54 PM
I have a friend who had a negligent discharge of a pistol inside an apartment. The local PD took possession of the weapon as evidence (he presumes). How long do you think it will take to get it back?

Thank you

How did the Police know about the ND.? Did the bullet penetrate any walls?

glockman19
05-03-2012, 6:57 PM
How did the Police know about the ND.? Did the bullet penetrate any walls?

That's what I want to know...

tbc
05-03-2012, 7:00 PM
OP. Could you describe the ND in details. I would like to learn from this experience.


Sent from IPhone

Chief-7700
05-03-2012, 7:01 PM
NO such thing as a ND. Someone was stupid............

Lives_In_Fresno
05-03-2012, 7:10 PM
NO such thing as a ND. Someone was stupid............

what is it that you feel "negligent" means, then?

Sam
05-03-2012, 7:15 PM
NO such thing as a ND. Someone was stupid............

There's no such thing as an "accidental discharge." On the other hand, if someone is negligent, that means they acted below a reasonable standard of care. In this case, that standard means not shooting a gun unless it is at the range or to stop a threat.

Fjold
05-03-2012, 7:18 PM
Did he shoot a desk?

Sonic_mike
05-03-2012, 7:24 PM
desk pop?

http://youtu.be/948-2Vzgi3w

Lead Waster
05-03-2012, 7:25 PM
I imagine that he was cleaning it and it just went off by itself, like 99% of all ad/nds!!

Well I'm guessing nobody got hurt, so that's good. Since was in an apartment most likely he nd'ed and someone called on a gunshot, which is reasonable.

Chief-7700
05-03-2012, 7:37 PM
Rule 1 Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Rule 2 Never let the muzzle cover anything your not willing to destroy.
Rule 3 Keep your finger off the trigger and out side of the trigger guard until you're to shoot.
Rule 4 Be sure of your target and what's in line with your target.
Ok which rules did the guy who had the ND violate????????????

tacticalcity
05-03-2012, 7:42 PM
NO such thing as a ND. Someone was stupid............

You are confusing AD (accidental discharge) with an ND (negligent disharge).

Whether somebody accientally or knowing violates the safety rules and the gun fires as a result, that is a negligent discharge.

It is the term AD (accidental discharge) that is not accepted by the firearms community. The term itself suggests a standard below that which is considered acceptable.

shayski
05-03-2012, 8:10 PM
what happens if the bullet doesn't penetrate the walls? is that the same as setting up a back stop in your back yard?

RickD427
05-03-2012, 8:38 PM
I have a friend who had a negligent discharge of a pistol inside an apartment. The local PD took possession of the weapon as evidence (he presumes). How long do you think it will take to get it back?

Thank you

In all probability, the weapon isn't going to be returned. Depending on the circumstances of the negligent discharge, your friend may have some criminal liability under Penal Code section 246.3. Here's the text:

"246.3. (a) Except as otherwise authorized by law, any person who
willfully discharges a firearm in a grossly negligent manner which
could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public
offense and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of
Section 1170."

Violation is a felony (although the type of felony that can be reduced to a misdemeanor, but there are no guarantees).

Your friend may find some comfort in the "Willful" element. The DA has to show willful discharge to get a conviction. But it can also boil down to two questions: 1) Was the weapon loaded?, 2) Did you pull the trigger? If the jury believes the answer to be "yes" to both questions - then they can convict. To preclude the DA from doing that, the defense has to argue that one of the answers is "no". But how can you do that given the ND that occurred?

Where the weapon was used in a crime, the DA can petition the court for destruction.

Lives_In_Fresno
05-03-2012, 8:43 PM
Rule 1 Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Rule 2 Never let the muzzle cover anything your not willing to destroy.
Rule 3 Keep your finger off the trigger and out side of the trigger guard until you're to shoot.
Rule 4 Be sure of your target and what's in line with your target.
Ok which rules did the guy who had the ND violate????????????

You completely ignore what negligence is...

"The core idea of negligence is that people should exercise reasonable care when they act by taking account of the potential harm that they might foreseeably cause harm to other people."

Absent other facts, he did not act with reasonable care by shooting irresponsibly inside an apartment. Also, he likely shot in violation is one or more local laws.

bandook
05-03-2012, 10:10 PM
In all probability, the weapon isn't going to be returned. Depending on the circumstances of the negligent discharge, your friend may have some criminal liability under Penal Code section 246.3. Here's the text:

"246.3. (a) Except as otherwise authorized by law, any person who
willfully discharges a firearm in a grossly negligent manner which
could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public
offense and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of
Section 1170."

Violation is a felony (although the type of felony that can be reduced to a misdemeanor, but there are no guarantees).

Your friend may find some comfort in the "Willful" element. The DA has to show willful discharge to get a conviction. But it can also boil down to two questions: 1) Was the weapon loaded?, 2) Did you pull the trigger? If the jury believes the answer to be "yes" to both questions - then they can convict. To preclude the DA from doing that, the defense has to argue that one of the answers is "no". But how can you do that given the ND that occurred?

Where the weapon was used in a crime, the DA can petition the court for destruction.

Willful = Knowingly.
If he truly thought that the gun was unloaded, he is not guilty of willfully discharging a firearm.

(hence him not bring arrested already as the other two items seem to be facts that are both required to discharge a weapon. I.e. it needs to be loaded and the trigger pulled)

CenterX
05-03-2012, 10:23 PM
Need more information from the OP. More on the where, why and how.....

Getting it back depends on the City or County DA.

tacticalcity
05-03-2012, 10:28 PM
Ah...the memories. Back in my military days I had buddy do the same, in my dorm room on base while I was on leave. Shot himself in the hand. Luckily recovered. Managed to save his career and is still in the military. Going on 20 years this year. But they really wanted to go after him at the time. Even threatened me with correctional custody when I had nothing to do with it, just because he was in my room. Wanted to me to say he did not have express permission to be in my dorm room that day so they could have one more thing to charge him with. I refused of course. Said he had my express permission to enter my dorm room whenever he wanted. A lot of people would have caved under the pressure and thrown him under the bus. A lot of people we served with did crap like that, it was that kind of a command. Guy may have been an idiot, and I didn't really like him that much (more a friend of a friend). But I wasn't going to screw somebody over to save my own rear. I'd never be able to live with myself. In the end, he got 30 days correctional custody after he got out of the hospital. Nothing happened to me or any of his buddies. And like I said, he managed to have a nice long career that is still going strong. Think he is currently in Japan. He got very, very lucky!

In any case, all the other NDs I've had first hand experience with happened on the range. No deaths or crippling injuries witnessed. Thank goodness. Closest I have had myself is the gun going off unplanned while pointed down range because I was being an idiot and my finger slipped into the trigger well. That was enough to scare me straight and turn me into a safety Nazi.

RickD427
05-03-2012, 10:32 PM
Willful = Knowingly.
If he truly thought that the gun was unloaded, he is not guilty of willfully discharging a firearm.

(hence him not bring arrested already as the other two items seem to be facts that are both required to discharge a weapon. I.e. it needs to be loaded and the trigger pulled)

Bandook,

Your point is very well taken, that's actually why I pointed out that element.

A "state of mind" defense ("I thought the gun was unloaded") may work. At the same time, the DA could easily counter with - "You treat every weapon as loaded". It's a good argument, but not a guaranteed one. This would not be the first case where a Calgunner got "bit" by a unique reading of the law (Theseus comes to mind). I would also conclude, on the limited info in the original post, that responding LEO's didn't see a solid criminal case, otherwise the OP's friend probably would have been arrested.

LEO's don't always arrest at the first opportunity however, sometimes an arrest is deliberately delayed to allow for further investigation. That can go as long as the statute of limitations. That's three years in this case.

Nor is a conviction required for the weapon to be destroyed. I once seized a rifle which was negligently stored where the owner's delinquent son (now on death row for executing his dope dealing partner using a pneumatic nailgun to the head) could easily access it. No conviction, but the judge ordered the weapon destroyed.

negolien
05-03-2012, 11:45 PM
what is it that you feel "negligent" means, then?

LOL ns huh :p

As a side note we had a member here shoot himself in the leg which is clearly a ND did he get his weaapon back?

johnny1290
05-04-2012, 12:18 AM
If a cop took my gun I would not expect to see it again.

By all means, filll out whatever paperwork is suggested and get a lawyer if/when charges are pressed.

I hope he gets it back asap, but get another one in the meantime. He needed a new gun anyhow!

;-)

luckystrike
05-04-2012, 1:06 AM
that wasnt a gun shot, it was a firecracker.

hyperion.excal
05-04-2012, 1:10 AM
i have a funny feeling that the gun is a glock :D























i JK :p

but seriously we need more info from the OP.

PandaLuv
05-04-2012, 2:28 AM
Lol at Chief.

Colt-45
05-04-2012, 2:58 AM
How did the Police know about the ND.? Did the bullet penetrate any walls?

No need to penetrate walls, we all know how some people just have to call the police when firearms are involved even if no damage was caused or there were no victims.

Most likely happened like this:

First there's a loud BOOOOM!(or BANG!) then a concerned:rolleyes: citizen calls the police because she believes she just heard an AK-47 (or Glock) go off in the apartment right next door.

stix213
05-04-2012, 4:10 AM
If he is prone to ND's then hopefully never lol!

Sorry OP I don't actually know the answer to the question, though he likely violated some county ordinance by discharging a weapon within X distance from Y, which may not require the violation to be willful. Depends on the wording or existence of the ordinance, but many counties (most? all?) have one. I could be completely off, cause I haven't read my county ordinances in a while.


Nor is a conviction required for the weapon to be destroyed. I once seized a rifle which was negligently stored where the owner's delinquent son (now on death row for executing his dope dealing partner using a pneumatic nailgun to the head) could easily access it. No conviction, but the judge ordered the weapon destroyed.

Holy crap! Where are the nailgun banners when you need one? geez!

Lives_In_Fresno
05-04-2012, 4:44 AM
Willful = Knowingly.
If he truly thought that the gun was unloaded, he is not guilty of willfully discharging a firearm.


Actually, I'll bet they can make a case that pulling the trigger and having it go off satisfies "knowingly". the fact that you are incorrect may not play much into it.

That he isn't arrested could mean that they are giving him the benefit of the doubt, which is how I wish all events like this are handled.

Also, whether he is prosecuted or not doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't make a case stick. I hope he is fine, and his firearm is returned, and that he takes better care next time.

mpwang
05-04-2012, 9:36 AM
As bad as it sounds, no one was hurt. The 9mm jhp went through one exterior wall and hit a window to another apartment. This was in northern Calif. He was not arrested and he tells me the local LEOs were not at all alarming nor threatening. In fact they calmed him down because he was freaking out.

I don't feel comfortable giving put any more info than that.

JeremyS
05-04-2012, 9:40 AM
Was he cleaning the gun? Practicing something? What led to it being loaded and him thinking it wasn't?

tbc
05-04-2012, 9:50 AM
As bad as it sounds, no one was hurt. The 9mm jhp went through one exterior wall and hit a window to another apartment. This was in northern Calif. He was not arrested and he tells me the local LEOs were not at all alarming nor threatening. In fact they calmed him down because he was freaking out.

I don't feel comfortable giving put any more info than that.

Kudos to those LEOs.


Sent from IPhone

Chief-7700
05-04-2012, 10:02 AM
In my world the is no such thing as an AD or ND. Since someone's finger or something pulled the trigger.
See post #15

Chief-7700
05-04-2012, 10:02 AM
In my world there is no such thing as an AD or ND. Since someone's finger or something pulled the trigger.
See post #15

tacticalcity
05-04-2012, 10:05 AM
In my world the is no such thing as an AD or ND. Since someone's finger or something pulled the trigger.
See post #15

Do they have dictionaries in your world? Negligence means to be at fault through one's own actions.

Any violation of the 4 safety rules that results in a discharge is called a Negligent Discharge.

You made a mistake and confused AD with ND and now you are just being stubborn and refusing to admit it.

Backcountry
05-04-2012, 10:17 AM
Your "friend" doesn't deserve to get his gun back. Sounds like he needs an expensive lesson.

ke6guj
05-04-2012, 10:26 AM
It is the term AD (accidental discharge) that is not accepted by the firearms community. The term itself suggests a standard below that which is considered acceptable.there is such a thing as an AD, but it is usally an ND.

If you had what appeared to be a safely-functioning firearm and you loaded it and the FCG actually failed and caused it to fire (without you pulling the trigger), that could be an AD since you did nothing other than actually load it.

But since usually your finger actually pulled the trigger to make it fire, that would be an ND.

nocomply25
05-04-2012, 10:28 AM
How does someone clean a gun with bullets in it? Dont you strip it to clean it? This has always amazed me, but **** happens i guess. I think he does not deserve that gun back and should be forced to do training if he ever wants to get a gun again. He could have killed a a child or anyone for that matter and this would have been a completely different post.

greybeard
05-04-2012, 10:45 AM
No need to penetrate walls, we all know how some people just have to call the police when firearms are involved even if no damage was caused or there were no victims.

Most likely happened like this:

First there's a loud BOOOOM!(or BANG!) then a concerned:rolleyes: citizen calls the police because she believes she just heard an AK-47 (or Glock) go off in the apartment right next door.

Another scenario, somebody breaks into my house, shoots me. My neighbor thinks that is just greybeard having a ND and goes back to sleep. Three days later PD comes by to do welfare check, since I have not been at work, finds me dead. I will and want somebody to make that phone call about shots fired.

SouperMan
05-04-2012, 11:00 AM
Need more information from the OP. More on the where, why and how.....

Getting it back depends on the City or County DA.

^^^Yes


OP, more Ovaltine info, please.

Turo
05-04-2012, 11:03 AM
How does someone clean a gun with bullets in it? Dont you strip it to clean it? This has always amazed me, but **** happens i guess. I think he does not deserve that gun back and should be forced to do training if he ever wants to get a gun again. He could have killed a a child or anyone for that matter and this would have been a completely different post.

I would guess a large portion of "I was cleaning it" NDs are people covering up for doing something stupid like forgetting a gun was loaded and not checking it before "dry" firing it. It sounds a whole lot better than, "I was screwing around and shot a hole through my wall."

On the other hand, there are guns out there that require a user to pull the trigger during, or prior to, field stripping it. In that case, the person made an honest (albeit stupid) mistake by not checking the gun was unloaded before disassembly.

PandaLuv
05-04-2012, 11:17 AM
In my world the is no such thing as an AD or ND. Since someone's finger or something pulled the trigger.
See post #15

Lol this guy.

Lives_In_Fresno
05-04-2012, 11:19 AM
In my world there is no such thing as an AD or ND. Since someone's finger or something pulled the trigger.
See post #15

No prob. You have a right to be wrong, even in light of all of the various people trying to teach you new things.

drifter2be
05-04-2012, 11:29 AM
How does someone clean a gun with bullets in it? Dont you strip it to clean it? This has always amazed me, but **** happens i guess. I think he does not deserve that gun back and should be forced to do training if he ever wants to get a gun again. He could have killed a a child or anyone for that matter and this would have been a completely different post.

I completely agree. Kinda proves on some level that he is neither capable of responsible handling nor competent in firearms safety to possess a firearm. This could have easily turned into a tragedy if someone had been on the other side of the wall that bullet went through. A firearms safety course is definitely in order before your jackwagon friend puts his hands on another firearm. Part of owning one is knowing how to safely and responsibly handle one.

JeremyS
05-04-2012, 11:31 AM
Rule 1 Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Rule 2 Never let the muzzle cover anything your not willing to destroy.
Rule 3 Keep your finger off the trigger and out side of the trigger guard until you're to shoot.
Rule 4 Be sure of your target and what's in line with your target.

Ok which rules did the guy who had the ND violate????????????

He violated all of them. Obviously. He was not intending to fire his gun and therefore clearly violated 1 and 3 and, by assumption that he was not prepared to shoot so had not chosen a target, he could not have made a choice for 2 and 4. It is BECAUSE he violated these rules AND that violation led to the discharge of his weapon that he is negligent and this is EXACTLY a negligent discharge. This is precisely, exactly the definition of an ND.

"neg·li·gent   [neg-li-juhnt]
adjective
1.
guilty of or characterized by neglect, as of duty: negligent officials.
2.
lazily careless; offhand: a negligent wave of his manicured hand."

He neglected to follow these basic rules, which are every gun owner's responsibility to follow. He was careless. He was negligent.

Sheesh.


Anyway the entire response of "weelllllll, there's reaaalllly no such thing as an accidental discharge" is just a way to be a smarmy punk in the first place :p . Did you fire a gun and did not mean to? THEN IT WAS AN ACCIDENT hahaha. Whether it was due to your own stupidity and negligence or an actual failure of the fire control group as mentioned in another post doesn't change that it's an accident. The point is that accidents have CAUSES. Not that accidents don't actually happen. Obviously they do.

PandaLuv
05-04-2012, 11:37 AM
I get pissed, well, annoyed when some of my buddies shoot my guns and don't follow the four rules. I do get pissed when they talk crap that I'm being an *** to them. :)

Then I have to tell them that while guns are fun, they ain't no joke. People get hurt or get in trouble when people act stupid with guns, aka being negligent.

brownfeathermedic
05-04-2012, 12:06 PM
Unfortunately ,this happens at an alarming rate,not only with John Q. Public,but with LEO'S as well. My best friend S.O. recieved his new duty Glock .40 and put a round thru his Nice hardwood floor,glanced off and almost split the cox box in two. He reported it , cops came but never took his away! Internal paperwork was filed,and I'm sure he got an ear full of gripe!!!

tacticalcity
05-04-2012, 12:26 PM
I get pissed, well, annoyed when some of my buddies shoot my guns and don't follow the four rules. I do get pissed when they talk crap that I'm being an *** to them. :)

Then I have to tell them that while guns are fun, they ain't no joke. People get hurt or get in trouble when people act stupid with guns, aka being negligent.

Really bugs me when they say, "I just cleared it." as an excuse to completely ignore the rules as well. Especially when they are LEOs or military and should know better. Way too many guys have the wrong mindset when it comes to safety.

Almost all "accidental" disharges and shootings occured with an "unloaded" gun according to the people responsible.

bandook
05-04-2012, 12:36 PM
I have a friend who had a negligent discharge of a pistol inside an apartment. The local PD took possession of the weapon as evidence (he presumes). How long do you think it will take to get it back?

Thank you

From the california court of appeals...

http://www.lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/71912

In essence...

"If ... one is holding a gun supposed to be unloaded, and pulls the trigger expecting no more than a harmless snap of the hammer, but the gun is in fact loaded, and is discharged with fatal consequences, the shooting as well as the killing must be classed as unintentional.... And the act itself was unintentional if the word is used to express the shooting, but intentional if the word is used in the sense of crooking the finger or pulling the trigger"

I think there is plenty of real world data to support this train of thought...(i.e. hardly anyone who shoots themselves in the leg while cleaning a firearm ends up in jail as a felon)

CBruce
05-04-2012, 12:47 PM
I completely agree. Kinda proves on some level that he is neither capable of responsible handling nor competent in firearms safety to possess a firearm. This could have easily turned into a tragedy if someone had been on the other side of the wall that bullet went through. A firearms safety course is definitely in order before your jackwagon friend puts his hands on another firearm. Part of owning one is knowing how to safely and responsibly handle one.

Reacting to could'ves is what gets us bad gun laws.

drifter2be
05-04-2012, 12:48 PM
Reacting to could'ves is what gets us bad gun laws.

Along with idiots that don't know how to properly handle a firearm

PandaLuv
05-04-2012, 12:52 PM
Did you guys hear what happened in Antioch just recently?


Apparently the older brother shot and killed his younger brother when the gun "went off" by itself.

Basic safety, simple 4 rules, and they still get broken.

ivsamhell
05-04-2012, 12:56 PM
How does someone clean a gun with bullets in it? Dont you strip it to clean it? This has always amazed me, but **** happens i guess. I think he does not deserve that gun back and should be forced to do training if he ever wants to get a gun again. He could have killed a a child or anyone for that matter and this would have been a completely different post.

You have to pull the trigger in a glock to tear it down, too often people don't clear the weapon first. I personally know two people that acknowledge having done it.

MossbergMan
05-04-2012, 1:21 PM
Let me tell you a little story of how an ND occurred and killed a guy.
Mr. "A" was visiting Mr."B" at a secuity firm at shift change. Mr."A" had gotten off duty and driven to his pal's satillite office. It was jus the two of them.
Mr"B" had unloaded his Glock 22 in preperation to leave had the gun and magazine on the desk. Mr."A" eyes the gun, picks it up (without permission) and loads it. Mr."B" is irratated and tells him to unload it and set it back on the desk.
Here's where it goes south. Mr."A" cycles the action "clearing" the chamber and THEN removed the magazine. He then placed the gun to his right temple, said "Hey "B" watch this" and pressed the trigger. He was dead before he hit the floor. He had launched a 180gr. Federal Hydra-Shok into his head at muzzle contact. The round did not exit Mr."A"s head.
A simple manual of arms mistake, violation of all the safety rules and Mr"B" has some explaining to do.
The cops treated Mr."B" very well. They swabbed his hands for GSR and it was negitive and that was just about it.
During a parallel investigation, I discovered that this was not the first time Mr."A" had pulled this kind of stunt. That among the rank and file he was known for this kind of BS.
So how do NDs happen...it can be as simple as reversing the order in which you remove the magazine in the unloading process of a semi-auto pistol.
So just when you think you can take a "short-cut" or "that rule doesn't apply here" or "I've done this a thouasnd times and nothing bad has happened" is exactly when you'll hear the second loudest sound in the world (your gun going when you didn't expect it to). The loudest sound know to shooters is your gun going click instead of bang when you really needed it to BANG!
I'm glad the OPs pal didn't injure anyone. but breaking someones else's window with a bullet is almost guarenteed a visit from John Law.

motorwerks
05-04-2012, 1:52 PM
Rule 1 Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Rule 2 Never let the muzzle cover anything your not willing to destroy.
Rule 3 Keep your finger off the trigger and out side of the trigger guard until you're to shoot.
Rule 4 Be sure of your target and what's in line with your target.
Ok which rules did the guy who had the ND violate????????????

Who gives a $h!t. He didnt say his friend was trilling his gun around trying to be Rosco P Coltrain, he was asking a simple question.

motorwerks
05-04-2012, 1:53 PM
Let me tell you a little story of how an ND occurred and killed a guy.
Mr. "A" was visiting Mr."B" at a secuity firm at shift change. Mr."A" had gotten off duty and driven to his pal's satillite office. It was jus the two of them.
Mr"B" had unloaded his Glock 22 in preperation to leave had the gun and magazine on the desk. Mr."A" eyes the gun, picks it up (without permission) and loads it. Mr."B" is irratated and tells him to unload it and set it back on the desk.
Here's where it goes south. Mr."A" cycles the action "clearing" the chamber and THEN removed the magazine. He then placed the gun to his right temple, said "Hey "B" watch this" and pressed the trigger. He was dead before he hit the floor. He had launched a 180gr. Federal Hydra-Shok into his head at muzzle contact. The round did not exit Mr."A"s head.
A simple manual of arms mistake, violation of all the safety rules and Mr"B" has some explaining to do.
The cops treated Mr."B" very well. They swabbed his hands for GSR and it was negitive and that was just about it.
During a parallel investigation, I discovered that this was not the first time Mr."A" had pulled this kind of stunt. That among the rank and file he was known for this kind of BS.
So how do NDs happen...it can be as simple as reversing the order in which you remove the magazine in the unloading process of a semi-auto pistol.
So just when you think you can take a "short-cut" or "that rule doesn't apply here" or "I've done this a thouasnd times and nothing bad has happened" is exactly when you'll hear the second loudest sound in the world (your gun going when you didn't expect it to). The loudest sound know to shooters is your gun going click instead of bang when you really needed it to BANG!
I'm glad the OPs pal didn't injure anyone. but breaking someones else's window with a bullet is almost guarenteed a visit from John Law.

I'm sure the OP understands what happens when someone gets hit by a bullet...... just a thought.

Kodemonkey
05-04-2012, 2:06 PM
Do they have dictionaries in your world? Negligence means to be at fault through one's own actions.

Any violation of the 4 safety rules that results in a discharge is called a Negligent Discharge.

You made a mistake and confused AD with ND and now you are just being stubborn and refusing to admit it.

j4XT-l-_3y0

hornswaggled
05-04-2012, 2:07 PM
TWO WEEKS

It's been Arnold quote time recently.

Mana4real
05-04-2012, 2:09 PM
Did you guys hear what happened in Antioch just recently?


Apparently the older brother shot and killed his younger brother when the gun "went off" by itself.

Basic safety, simple 4 rules, and they still get broken.

I believe that was someone my wife worked with... Not 100% sure though. I think it was just over this last weekend.

Mana4real
05-04-2012, 2:19 PM
You have to pull the trigger in a glock to tear it down, too often people don't clear the weapon first. I personally know two people that acknowledge having done it.

It's like one of those things that you have to watch out for. I cleared my glock, handed it to a friend who is really good with firearms. He checks it and says it feels light and top heavy. I told him with a magazine it feels different. I hand him and empty magazine and he put it in and he said it still felt funny. I so hand him a full magazine he puts it in, then he goes to "check to see if it's loaded" (I handed it to him no magazine and action open) by pulling the slide back. I yell "NO!!" and I grab the gun. It's just these simple things that people do that can make a huge problem. He said he wasn't going to pull the slide all the way back to check, but still, how am I supposed to know that?

hornswaggled
05-04-2012, 2:25 PM
There IS such a thing as an AD... IF something is mechanically wrong with the gun and you didn't realize it yet. Gun malfunctions and hammer follows while chambering a round on an HD pistol? Fine, accident.

"I thought it was unloaded, derp derp derp?" Negligent.

ivsamhell
05-04-2012, 2:44 PM
There IS such a thing as an AD... IF something is mechanically wrong with the gun and you didn't realize it yet. Gun malfunctions and hammer follows while chambering a round on an HD pistol? Fine, accident.

"I thought it was unloaded, derp derp derp?" Negligent.

In theory yes, in reality its pretty non existent.

Davisje011
05-04-2012, 2:49 PM
An elderly relative of mine had an ND with a .38 snubnose. Went through the neighbors house, and impacted a sheet of siding the next house over.

We reported it to LAPD, they picked the gun up, made a report, then turned to me and said, don't let her have this back, do a transfer or something.

They checked it into their locker.

Couple months later, she casually mentions how they called her a few weeks after and said it was available for pick up, and she got it back.

I ended up getting rid of the thing for her.

mpwang
05-04-2012, 2:57 PM
I guess it makes me realize that one can never be too careful. All it takes is one time to screw up and then someone could get hurt. We could all remember to be careful.
I thought this was interesting
http://negligentdischarge.com/

chuckshoots
05-04-2012, 3:33 PM
In my world there is no such thing as an AD or ND. Since someone's finger or something pulled the trigger.
See post #15

I have had an AD or whichever you choose, with my autoloading shotgun, loaded a shell into the chamber, pushed the button to close the breach, and it fired upon the breach closing (which is of course an aggressive movement). I had a hand on the foregrip and the other i just had a finger push the button on the foreward part of the receiver. Shot right into the ground where I was pointing it so no harm was done thankfully.

Sent it into the manufacturer and they did something and would not say what even when I called wanting to know what fix they made. claimed something around the lines of "something was wrong and we fixed it, our bad" ha havent had that problem again but sure as hell I'm even more careful than before with where my firearm is pointed.

Kodemonkey
05-04-2012, 3:38 PM
I have had an AD or whichever you choose, with my autoloading shotgun, loaded a shell into the chamber, pushed the button to close the breach, and it fired upon the breach closing (which is of course an aggressive movement). I had a hand on the foregrip and the other i just had a finger push the button on the foreward part of the receiver. Shot right into the ground where I was pointing it so no harm was done thankfully.

Sent it into the manufacturer and they did something and would not say what even when I called wanting to know what fix they made. claimed something around the lines of "something was wrong and we fixed it, our bad" ha havent had that problem again but sure as hell I'm even more careful than before with where my firearm is pointed.

Slam fires can happen with AR and with M1As too.

therealnickb
05-04-2012, 3:39 PM
In theory yes, in reality its pretty non existent.

I've had 2 AD's.

When I was about 9 my dad took me along on a pheasant hunt. Walking through the corn we came to a shot up RR sign. He handed me the old Ithaca & asked if I could hit the sign. I did and immediately racked it & sent off another round that almost knocked me on my butt. (I had held the trigger down & didn't know it would go off again like that.) The second shot went over the sign. Now maybe Dad should not have given me the shotgun with more than one round, but I don't see how that was anything but an AD on my part given my age and experience at the time.

At the range last year firing off hand with my Socom II, I double one off. Again, the second shot was unintended. The round hit the backstop behind the target, but high of the target because the muzzle hadn't settled yet. Another AD in my opinion.

2 AD's over 44 years of shooting. Nothing to be proud of, but I've never intentionally pulled a trigger and had a gun go off when it was not supposed to. I see a clear distinction between ND & AD.

Mana4real
05-04-2012, 3:57 PM
20 Years ago my brother had an AD with his .410. He closed the action on the break open single shot .410 and it fired into the ground. Everyone thought he pulled the trigger. Well those guns we're really touched a whole lot since then. I pulled it out to clean it and oil it up so he could take it home with him in October last year. I closed the action and the trigger stayed down. So something was definitely mechanically wrong with that shotgun.

tacticalcity
05-04-2012, 4:01 PM
I've had 2 AD's.

When I was about 9 my dad took me along on a pheasant hunt. Walking through the corn we came to a shot up RR sign. He handed me the old Ithaca & asked if I could hit the sign. I did and immediately racked it & sent off another round that almost knocked me on my butt. (I had held the trigger down & didn't know it would go off again like that.) The second shot went over the sign. Now maybe Dad should not have given me the shotgun with more than one round, but I don't see how that was anything but an AD on my part given my age and experience at the time.

At the range last year firing off hand with my Socom II, I double one off. Again, the second shot was unintended. The round hit the backstop behind the target, but high of the target because the muzzle hadn't settled yet. Another AD in my opinion.

2 AD's over 44 years of shooting. Nothing to be proud of, but I've never intentionally pulled a trigger and had a gun go off when it was not supposed to. I see a clear distinction between ND & AD.

Not trying to be a jerk...but both are still NDs.

Ignorance (meant in the best possible way) is not an excuse. It is understandable, but we gun guys hold ourselves to a MUCH higher standard than the general public. That is what makes us responsible citizens.

You violated the 4 safety rules on the first one, and I am guessing (due to lack of information) you used poor technique not trapping the trigger to the rear and not properly anticipating the recoil thus causing your finger to pull the trigger unexpededly (something we've all done on a shooting range at least once).

The point of insiting they were not accidents but negligence is to make sure you take them seriously and use them as a teaching moment rather than just shrugging them off and saying "accidents happen". Again, not about throwing somebody under a bus but about making sure we hold ourselves to the highest standard so that the frequency of such incidents is reduced as much as possible.

New guys (in general) treat safety way too lax. Society in general is willing to let people off the hook and chalk all sorts of irresponsibility to being an "accident". The shooting community insists on a higher standard. If an experienced shooter like yourself buys into the "accidental discharge" nonesense, then the new guys will take that inch and turn it into a mile. It is a very slippery slope.

Lead Waster
05-04-2012, 4:06 PM
Let me tell you a little story of how an ND occurred and killed a guy.
Mr. "A" was visiting Mr."B" at a secuity firm at shift change. Mr."A" had gotten off duty and driven to his pal's satillite office. It was jus the two of them.
Mr"B" had unloaded his Glock 22 in preperation to leave had the gun and magazine on the desk. Mr."A" eyes the gun, picks it up (without permission) and loads it. Mr."B" is irratated and tells him to unload it and set it back on the desk.
Here's where it goes south. Mr."A" cycles the action "clearing" the chamber and THEN removed the magazine. He then placed the gun to his right temple, said "Hey "B" watch this" and pressed the trigger. He was dead before he hit the floor. He had launched a 180gr. Federal Hydra-Shok into his head at muzzle contact. The round did not exit Mr."A"s head.
A simple manual of arms mistake, violation of all the safety rules and Mr"B" has some explaining to do.
The cops treated Mr."B" very well. They swabbed his hands for GSR and it was negitive and that was just about it.
During a parallel investigation, I discovered that this was not the first time Mr."A" had pulled this kind of stunt. That among the rank and file he was known for this kind of BS.
So how do NDs happen...it can be as simple as reversing the order in which you remove the magazine in the unloading process of a semi-auto pistol.
So just when you think you can take a "short-cut" or "that rule doesn't apply here" or "I've done this a thouasnd times and nothing bad has happened" is exactly when you'll hear the second loudest sound in the world (your gun going when you didn't expect it to). The loudest sound know to shooters is your gun going click instead of bang when you really needed it to BANG!
I'm glad the OPs pal didn't injure anyone. but breaking someones else's window with a bullet is almost guarenteed a visit from John Law.



.... And now we know what CA insists on new guns coming onto the roster must have magazine disconnects and loaded chamber indicators. Thanks Mr. A, and RIP.

Remember this one?

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/06/10009564-cops-navy-seal-accidentally-shoots-self-in-head?lite

Now I think the guy was just a Nave Seal prospect, not a full SEAL, but still... sheesh. RIP.

Lots of people who accidentally shoot themselves in the head (it's an accident resulting in negligent behaviour? Nevermind, let's not argue that) are showing off like idiots or drunk.

chrisf
05-04-2012, 4:10 PM
negligent discharge of a firearm is a felony in the state of california...

tacticalcity
05-04-2012, 4:27 PM
20 Years ago my brother had an AD with his .410. He closed the action on the break open single shot .410 and it fired into the ground. Everyone thought he pulled the trigger. Well those guns we're really touched a whole lot since then. I pulled it out to clean it and oil it up so he could take it home with him in October last year. I closed the action and the trigger stayed down. So something was definitely mechanically wrong with that shotgun.

It's 1 in a billion that is a mechanical issue. It's the first thing everyone claims, and almost never true. In your case you verified there is something wrong with the gun.

Consider the gun as currently unservicable (military term for broken too badly to use or do a quick patch on). Either get it fixed by a pro, or dismantle it so it won't fire (remove the firing pin or something). If you get hit by a bus tomorrow you don't want whomever inherits it to discover the issue the hardway. Just my $0.02.

stix213
05-04-2012, 4:31 PM
About a year or so ago myself and his father were supervising my nephew firing my dad's old youth .22lr bolt action. Things were going fine, then when chambering maybe the 3rd round the gun went off when closing the bolt. His finger was not riding the trigger. Fortunately this 9 year old kid is an absolute stickler to safety rules even without me having to do anything to keep him in line. Gun was properly pointed down range at the time, so no harm no foul. No one has fired this gun since, not worth dicking with it after that. I consider that the only legit AD ever under my supervision, and don't see any way it could have been avoided.

A separate incident a neighbor of my brother came out shooting on a camping trip. She is not experienced so I went over the safety rules with her very clearly. Though every time she would handle one of my guns she would put her finger on the trigger before even being on target. I would correct her every single time immediately. Must have been at least 5 times myself. Each time she would act like it was a completely new concept to her.

One time though she goes to shoot someone else's gun, and I wasn't watching her closely because really she isn't my friend, isn't my guest, and it isn't my gun. I was busy monitoring someone else shooting one of my pistols. Turns out to have been a lapse in my judgement since not more than 5 seconds after she picks up the gun she rockets off a .40s&w straight up into the air not 3 feet away from me. :facepalm: So from now on this woman who refuses to follow directions repeatedly is banned from ever shooting on any trips I'm involved in (or I'm not going), and even if they aren't my friends, and they aren't shooting my guns, I guess I'm going to have to personally babysit all gun noobs myself if I'm there since if I don't it turns out it might just not happen.

I'm forced to blame myself for that incident even though not my friend and not my gun. Definitely an ND, not an AD, and could have definitely been avoided if I had grown a pair and cut her off earlier, or at least made it my mission to watch every finger twitch she made.

johnny1290
05-04-2012, 4:32 PM
You know, it's good to read these stories to remind me not to be complacent.

I've accidentally done double taps at the range before, it's shocking as heck.

I don't put any ammo in my mags or gun except at the range. works for me, but I'm also not concerned/prepared for self defense in case of break in.

I think I'm more likely to ND than get a break in, so I'd rather nip that in the bud. I hope I don't regret that decision :)

tacticalcity
05-04-2012, 4:32 PM
.... And now we know what CA insists on new guns coming onto the roster must have magazine disconnects and loaded chamber indicators. Thanks Mr. A, and RIP.

Remember this one?

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/06/10009564-cops-navy-seal-accidentally-shoots-self-in-head?lite

Now I think the guy was just a Nave Seal prospect, not a full SEAL, but still... sheesh. RIP.

Lots of people who accidentally shoot themselves in the head (it's an accident resulting in negligent behaviour? Nevermind, let's not argue that) are showing off like idiots or drunk.

A violation of one of the four safety rules is negligence. It is impossible to shoot yourself in the head by accident. Because even if the gun magically went off by itself, having it pointed at your head is a safety violation and thus negligence.

tacticalcity
05-04-2012, 4:37 PM
You know, it's good to read these stories to remind me not to be complacent.

I've accidentally done double taps at the range before, it's shocking as heck.

I don't put any ammo in my mags or gun except at the range. works for me, but I'm also not concerned/prepared for self defense in case of break in.

I think I'm more likely to ND than get a break in, so I'd rather nip that in the bud. I hope I don't regret that decision :)

We've all done it. And yes, it is scary. Should be though.

It is really important to train to trap the trigger to the rear. It will prevent this and it allows you to exploit the trigger reset, resuling in faster and more accurate follow up shots. Believe it or not, when you see those Delta and SWAT guys shooting really fast, they are also still trapping the trigger to the rear each time. They've just trained to the point where it all happens so fast that if you blink you will miss it.

stix213
05-04-2012, 4:49 PM
You know, it's good to read these stories to remind me not to be complacent.

I've accidentally done double taps at the range before, it's shocking as heck.

I don't put any ammo in my mags or gun except at the range. works for me, but I'm also not concerned/prepared for self defense in case of break in.

I think I'm more likely to ND than get a break in, so I'd rather nip that in the bud. I hope I don't regret that decision :)

I compromise with loaded mags in self defense guns but never chamber a round unless it is staying in my immediate possession. Also I always verify the chamber status even though I know the answer.

drifter2be
05-04-2012, 5:02 PM
You know, it's good to read these stories to remind me not to be complacent.

I've accidentally done double taps at the range before, it's shocking as heck.

I don't put any ammo in my mags or gun except at the range. works for me, but I'm also not concerned/prepared for self defense in case of break in.

I think I'm more likely to ND than get a break in, so I'd rather nip that in the bud. I hope I don't regret that decision :)

If you truly don't care about being prepared I guess that's all fine and well for you. Personally if I was that overly concerned about getting complacent and lax in safety I would still keep a single loaded magazine for that small chance of a break in, even if it was just stored next to the gun and not in it.

Personally, all my guns that are stored in the big safe are stored with the magazine removed and the chamber cleared before being put away and I still chamber check the guns before doing anything with them when I take them out. My nightstand gun is ALWAYS loaded and because I know that gun is always cocked and locked I treat it with extra precaution. But that gun only gets touched when I hear a noise at night or I am unloading it to pack it up to take to the range. Safety and safe handling are of the highest importance to me, because I personally know someone responsible for a negligent discharge that luckily only resulted in a damaged mattress and sheets and his damaged pride, it resulted from him not removing the magazine from his Glock before clearing the chamber and he fired it into his bed. Needless to say I really pay attention anytime I am around him at the range.

Chief-7700
05-04-2012, 5:37 PM
Every time I pick up a weapon or some else has handled my weapon I do a low light chamber check.

Liberty Customs
05-04-2012, 6:57 PM
In my world there is no such thing as an AD or ND. Since someone's finger or something pulled the trigger.
See post #15

My father cleaned his gun then loaded the mag. He pointed the gun a safe direction and racked one in to the chamber - the gun went off. The gun failed, then he disowned that gun. I would call that an AD.

Other than that I would say this:

Your "friend" doesn't deserve to get his gun back. Sounds like he needs an expensive lesson.

therealnickb
05-04-2012, 7:43 PM
Not trying to be a jerk...but both are still NDs.

Ignorance (meant in the best possible way) is not an excuse. It is understandable, but we gun guys hold ourselves to a MUCH higher standard than the general public. That is what makes us responsible citizens.

You violated the 4 safety rules on the first one, and I am guessing (due to lack of information) you used poor technique not trapping the trigger to the rear and not properly anticipating the recoil thus causing your finger to pull the trigger unexpededly (something we've all done on a shooting range at least once).

The point of insiting they were not accidents but negligence is to make sure you take them seriously and use them as a teaching moment rather than just shrugging them off and saying "accidents happen". Again, not about throwing somebody under a bus but about making sure we hold ourselves to the highest standard so that the frequency of such incidents is reduced as much as possible.

New guys (in general) treat safety way too lax. Society in general is willing to let people off the hook and chalk all sorts of irresponsibility to being an "accident". The shooting community insists on a higher standard. If an experienced shooter like yourself buys into the "accidental discharge" nonesense, then the new guys will take that inch and turn it into a mile. It is a very slippery slope.
I appreciate your tact & tone. But, I'll disagree slightly on my 9 year old issue and totally on my double tap last year.

As a yet to hunt 9 year old, I was probably just trying to imitate what I'd seen my dad and uncles do hundreds of times while hunting. Fire - rack -fire rack & fire again.

Looking at the four rules,

Rule 1 Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Rule 2 Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Rule 3 Keep your finger off the trigger and out side of the trigger guard until you're to shoot.
Rule 4 Be sure of your target and what's in line with your target.

I failed one rule at best. I was treating the shotgun as loaded. I had it pointed in a safe direction. I knew my target and what was beyond it. The finger? Guilty. Had someone been hurt because they popped up above (20 feet in the air from the middle of a corn field) and behind the sign, maybe, maybe my dad would have been negligent. But a nine year old? No.

Negligence by definition requires that you act in a manor more careless than a reasonably prudent person with your education and experience would have acted under the same or similar circumstances.

As for the Socom...... I failed none of the 4 rules. I've fired a couple thousand rounds through that rifle without an incident. I did fail to control the trigger in that one instance, but in the act of shooting and as you pointed out it can and does happen. Yet I reiterate, none of the safety rules were violated. My rifle was treated as loaded, I knew my target and what was beyond, my finger was on the trigger because that is the proper time & place for it to be there, and the rifle muzzle was under control and pointed in a safe direction at all times.

Since the double tap, in your words can and does happen to all of us, it clearly is covered under the "what would a reasonably prudent person do under similar circumstances". You also rightly pointed out that the recoil caused an unintentional pulling of the trigger. These 2 points are critical in defining an accident and dismissing a negligent action.

Let me finish by saying this. I'm about as tough on people that intentionally pull a trigger and let loose an unintended round as anyone. Unless you are in the business of using weapons, you really don't have much of an excuse in my book. Drop the mag, lock the slide back, check the chamber, point in a safe direction and pull the trigger if necessary. It's not any tougher than that for us rec shooters. LE, Military & the like are excused IMO due to intense active training and everyday loading and unloading. People make mistakes when habit and "routine" take over.

Shenaniguns
05-04-2012, 8:02 PM
Rule 1 Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Rule 2 Never let the muzzle cover anything your not willing to destroy.
Rule 3 Keep your finger off the trigger and out side of the trigger guard until you're to shoot.
Rule 4 Be sure of your target and what's in line with your target.
Ok which rules did the guy who had the ND violate????????????

With the little details in the first post, he broke rule number 1 and 3.

BigDogatPlay
05-04-2012, 8:20 PM
In all probability, the weapon isn't going to be returned. Depending on the circumstances of the negligent discharge, your friend may have some criminal liability under Penal Code section 246.3.

I think that's a bit of a stretch. 246.3 is geared toward gang bangers doing drive bys than it is to some poor Calgunner who screws up and lets one go inside his own apartment.

Having said that if the city has an ordinance for discharging within the city limits without legitimate cause then they might charge for that. The OP might be best served to engage counsel to inquire with the PD if they plan to charge the OP with anything and, if not, when they plan to return OPs property.

Uriah02
05-04-2012, 8:25 PM
NO such thing as a ND. Someone was stupid............

Hence the Negligent part of the event.

locosway
05-04-2012, 8:29 PM
How did the Police know about the ND.? Did the bullet penetrate any walls?

This...

I've been around a few weapons discharged indoors and the cops don't show up unless you call. Even the neighbors don't call, or even seem to care.

Lives_In_Fresno
05-04-2012, 9:05 PM
This...

I've been around a few weapons discharged indoors and the cops don't show up unless you call. Even the neighbors don't call, or even seem to care.

Perhaps you didn't read the thread....they said it penetrated and hit a window of a different unit, if I recall correctly.

locosway
05-04-2012, 9:06 PM
Perhaps you didn't read the thread....they said it penetrated and hit a window of a different unit, if I recall correctly.

I did read the thread. I was just commenting on how usually the cops don't come out. Even with wall penetration, unless there's something noticeable like a broken window, people are fairly oblivious.

Lead Waster
05-04-2012, 9:30 PM
The "poor calgunner who screwed up and let one go inside his apartment" is just as redponsible for the person who is injured or killed in the next apartment as the drive-by gang banger. The bullets don't care what or who they hit, or who fired them.

mpwang
05-05-2012, 12:06 AM
This happened a while back. Im sorry to have started quite a hot topic. Apparently very few cgers have had NDs, which is good. With respect to all who may disagree, my idiot friend would definitely classify this as an ND. As far as the law goes, I just did a casual search and the DA, should he/she decide to pursue charges, must show reckless negligence similar to doing a desk pop outside while waving it around. This of course is open to interpetation.

ExtremeX
05-05-2012, 12:24 AM
desk pop?

http://youtu.be/948-2Vzgi3w

Thanks for showing me that hahaha

So funny

Jack L
05-05-2012, 6:11 AM
That's what I want to know...

was it at his apartment?

Mickey D
05-05-2012, 8:47 AM
The ol' "I have a friend who" scenario. :rolleyes:

RickD427
05-05-2012, 12:48 PM
I think that's a bit of a stretch. 246.3 is geared toward gang bangers doing drive bys than it is to some poor Calgunner who screws up and lets one go inside his own apartment.

Having said that if the city has an ordinance for discharging within the city limits without legitimate cause then they might charge for that. The OP might be best served to engage counsel to inquire with the PD if they plan to charge the OP with anything and, if not, when they plan to return OPs property.

Big Dog,

Penal Code 246.3 was pretty clearly directed at the "Drive-By" scenario when it was enacted. Since that time, at least where I work (Los Angeles County) it's pretty much become the "Charge De Jour" when somebody inappropriately discharges a firearm. The District Attorney has been very accepting of these cases. The only benefit for the non-gang violator is for the D.A. to exercise discretion under section 17(b) and file as a misdemeanor. Their office has been pretty good in that regard. Of course the violator still winds up with the felony arrest until the 17(b) prerogative is exercised.

Common
05-05-2012, 1:10 PM
Bandook,

" I once seized a rifle which was negligently stored where the owner's delinquent son (now on death row for executing his dope dealing partner using a pneumatic nailgun to the head) could easily access it. No conviction, but the judge ordered the weapon destroyed.


:useless:

RickD427
05-05-2012, 1:46 PM
:useless:

Common,

No pictures. The State Supreme Court decision on his death penalty appeal shows you what some folks are capable of. I'm attaching a copy of the opinion (Moderators - No claim of copyright in a government publication). The opinion isn't too detailed about the "stapling" of the victims ears to his head - but you'll get the picture.

The defendant's father was well aware of his criminal propensities (as he testified in the death penalty case) but still left a real nice Winchester 92 accessible to his son.

As much as I hate to see nice weapon go to the shredder, that one needed to go.

Victor346
05-05-2012, 2:54 PM
Here's mine:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=7367712&highlight=negligent#post7367712

beretta929mm
05-05-2012, 3:26 PM
Every time one acknowledges an ND here, some self-proclaimed expert would start calling it an act of stupidity. Guess what? it is those experts that would have NDs eventually.

ivsamhell
05-05-2012, 3:31 PM
Every time one acknowledges an ND here, some self-proclaimed expert would start calling it an act of stupidity. Guess what? it is those experts that would have NDs eventually.

And? it still is an act of stupidity.

therealnickb
05-05-2012, 5:23 PM
And? it still is an act of stupidity.

Frikin Bingo.

tal3nt
05-05-2012, 5:35 PM
There are those that have experienced a ND, and there are those that lie.

Learn from it.

markw
05-05-2012, 6:37 PM
He'll probably get a wooden profile gun back. :)

22popnsplat
05-05-2012, 8:13 PM
Three Flippin pages and still dont know what happen

therealnickb
05-05-2012, 8:51 PM
There are those that have experienced a ND, and there are those that lie.

Learn from it.

Wrong. 100% except for the learn from it part. That is always a virtue.

Mana4real
05-06-2012, 1:10 AM
It's 1 in a billion that is a mechanical issue. It's the first thing everyone claims, and almost never true. In your case you verified there is something wrong with the gun.

Consider the gun as currently unservicable (military term for broken too badly to use or do a quick patch on). Either get it fixed by a pro, or dismantle it so it won't fire (remove the firing pin or something). If you get hit by a bus tomorrow you don't want whomever inherits it to discover the issue the hardway. Just my $0.02.

I gave it to my brother he knows there is a problem and plans on fixing it, or destroying it. I know it's a one and a billion chance, but it happened.

drifter2be
05-06-2012, 1:41 AM
There are those that have experienced a ND, and there are those that lie.

Learn from it.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better about not knowing how to properly and safely handle a firearm. How is an inexcusable screw up any less of an inexcusable screw up if, according to the philosophy you subscribe to, everyone has done it?

xpbprox
05-06-2012, 2:13 AM
Haha I love how everyone is so judgmental and perfect I know the dude failed but fuc how many times has it already been said in this thread, get down from your ivory tower already

451040
05-06-2012, 11:23 AM
How long do you think it will take to get it back?

It would be better if he doesn't get it back. He's too irresponsible to own any firearms.

luchador768
05-06-2012, 12:09 PM
It's not "holier than thou" or Ivory Tower to come down hard on folks that shoot holes in thier houses. There should be a zero tollerance attitude for this stuff. We aren't playing golf at the shooting range, where you can call "fore" and all is well. If you have a incedent where you shoot yourself, or the wall or whatever, it's because of a series of bad decisions, and lack of safety, period. There were a series of events that led to the gun going off, none of them were controlled by the gun.

fullrearview
05-06-2012, 12:11 PM
There's no such thing as an "accidental discharge." On the other hand, if someone is negligent, that means they acted below a reasonable standard of care. In this case, that standard means not shooting a gun unless it is at the range or to stop a threat.

While very rare, I have seen a .223 "cook" off. That is why ALL safety measures must be followed. My ND happened while I was trying to diagnose an issue with a handgun. Thankfully, I had it pointed in safe direction.

PanaDP
05-06-2012, 12:25 PM
With the little details in the first post, he broke rule number 1 and 3.

I was thinking more like all 4.

He certainly didn't treat it as if it were loaded, because it was loaded.

In all probability, he pulled the trigger whether he meant to or not.

Given that the police calmed him down he sure didn't know where his muzzle was pointing nor was he fine killing whatever was in line with it which, thankfully, was not a person this time.

PanaDP
05-06-2012, 12:29 PM
There are those that have experienced a ND, and there are those that lie.

Learn from it.

That's not at all true. If you ALWAYS (100%, the polar opposite of never, without fail) follow proper gun handling safety it's quite a simple thing to never experience a NG. If you don't ALWAYS use safe practices it's only a matter of time before it bites you.

I have truly and honestly gone my whole 27 years of life without a negligent discharge because I was raised with guns in my hands and my Dad was very strict with safety. Proper, safe gun handling is just instinct now. I am very touchy about people being lazy or sloppy about gun handling.

If I ever have a negligent discharge, I'm sure I'll be pretty shaken up. I don't even like thinking about the possibility of accidentally injuring or killing another person.

xpbprox
05-06-2012, 12:37 PM
It's not "holier than thou" or Ivory Tower to come down hard on folks that shoot holes in thier houses. There should be a zero tollerance attitude for this stuff. We aren't playing golf at the shooting range, where you can call "fore" and all is well. If you have a incedent where you shoot yourself, or the wall or whatever, it's because of a series of bad decisions, and lack of safety, period. There were a series of events that led to the gun going off, none of them were controlled by the gun.

You kinda just proved my point

Edit: I agree with what you said about bad decisions just think its been said plenty of time is this thread. We dont even have all the info and we don't even know the guy.

AngelZ3R0
05-06-2012, 1:30 PM
Don't Forget clearing a Jam then BOOM also a AD

therealnickb
05-06-2012, 1:33 PM
You kinda just proved my point

Edit: I agree with what you said about bad decisions just think its been said plenty of time is this thread. We dont even have all the info and we don't even know the guy.

Unless I'm misremembering the op "the guy" let one go from inside his apartment and didn't know where it went.

The guy has no excuse unless he was in a fight for his life. IF that were the case, you need more info to comment with certainty. But I don't think it was & therefor the harsh appropriate comments.

DrMoebius
05-06-2012, 2:36 PM
CI'm attaching a copy of the opinion (Moderators - No claim of copyright in a government publication). The opinion isn't too detailed about the "stapling" of the victims ears to his head - but you'll get the picture. Good Lord, I read the descriptions of the crimes in the decision - that is a true horror story.

greybeard
05-06-2012, 3:51 PM
Don't Forget clearing a Jam then BOOM also a AD
Without more detail, I would think it is a ND.

BigDogatPlay
05-06-2012, 4:27 PM
Big Dog,

Penal Code 246.3 was pretty clearly directed at the "Drive-By" scenario when it was enacted. Since that time, at least where I work (Los Angeles County) it's pretty much become the "Charge De Jour" when somebody inappropriately discharges a firearm. The District Attorney has been very accepting of these cases. The only benefit for the non-gang violator is for the D.A. to exercise discretion under section 17(b) and file as a misdemeanor. Their office has been pretty good in that regard. Of course the violator still winds up with the felony arrest until the 17(b) prerogative is exercised.

Local DA policy can and will trump for sure. That's very good for the SoCal folks to know and thanks for the details.

Having said that is 246.3 being used on a homeowner who unintentionally and without malice lets one go in his garage? Not naming names, of course, but have you seen it used that way? Or is it being used to (deservedly) prang boneheads who shoot their guns into the air celebrating whatever?

flyer898
05-06-2012, 5:05 PM
Negligent Discharge in violation of Penal Code section 243.6 requires that the person acted willfully. The jury instruction defines the required state of mind:
"Someone commits an act willfully when he or she does it willingly or on purpose." The jury instruction references Penal Code section 7 for the definition.

Unless a person discharges a firearm on purpose under circumstances when it is not safe to do so they are not guilty of this crime. They may be guilty of being stupid, but that is not the same thing.

tacticalcity
05-06-2012, 5:12 PM
Haha I love how everyone is so judgmental and perfect I know the dude failed but fuc how many times has it already been said in this thread, get down from your ivory tower already

I am neither perfect nor am I trying to be judgemental. It is by being hard on ourselves, and being sticklers for safety rules that we prevent such things from happening to ourselves. The person I am hardest on is myself.

It is not about picking on somebody or being jerk, it is about doing our darndest to keep each other safe. I don't know about you, but I want both the guy running the advanced course with me who is shooting 2 inches from my head and the guy plinking at the public range to be just as big a stickler on safety as I am...that way they won't shoot me.

I think others are expressing the same sentiment, it's just getting lost in translation. We are hard asses because there is so little room for failure lest somebody get killed. There simply is no room to tiptoe around peoples feelings when it comes to safety. It is too important.

Yes professionals do have NDs. They and their peers also take the same approach I do and take it extremely seriously. They don't laugh it off and chalk it upto an accident, they take it to heart and are extremely hard on themselves for it. I'm simply suggesting we take that lesson to heart as well.

xpbprox
05-06-2012, 5:17 PM
I am neither perfect nor am I trying to be judgemental. It is by being hard on ourselves, and being sticklers for safety rules that we prevent such things from happening to ourselves. The person I am hardest on is myself.

It is not about picking on somebody or being jerk, it is about doing our darndest to keep each other safe. I don't know about you, but I want both the guy running the advanced course with me who is shooting 2 inches from my head and the guy plinking at the public range to be just as big a stickler on safety as I am...that way they won't shoot me.

I think others are expressing the same sentiment, it's just getting lost in translation. We are hard asses because there is so little room for failure lest somebody get killed.


Ok dad I understand

tacticalcity
05-06-2012, 5:23 PM
Ok dad I understand

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/tacticalcity/Funny/b08a7-9cb8a_epenis_troll_insult.jpg

RickD427
05-06-2012, 5:49 PM
Local DA policy can and will trump for sure. That's very good for the SoCal folks to know and thanks for the details.

Having said that is 246.3 being used on a homeowner who unintentionally and without malice lets one go in his garage? Not naming names, of course, but have you seen it used that way? Or is it being used to (deservedly) prang boneheads who shoot their guns into the air celebrating whatever?

Big Dog,

Almost all of the cases that I'm familiar with were either celebratory gunfire, or target shooting at inappropriate sites.

There is a currently news story in circulation (check the major news sites - I'm not posting them here because I'm uncertain of the copyright status) where the daughter of actor Robert Wagner and Natalie Wood was arrested, along with her boyfriend after deputies responded to a "shots fired" call at their residence. The news reports are not very detailed about the circumstances of the shooting, but the narratives all seem consistent with an AD/ND. The boyfriend was arrested for 246.3.

Also replying to Flyer898,

Your argument is a good one, but not universally compelling. It is possible to consider an action as "willful" because the trigger was pulled. Please check out Bandook's Posting #51. He's cited a case that supports your opinion. In that case the defendant was convicted under the above reasoning. The conviction was overturned, pretty much along the lines of your reasoning. The fact that two different courts (the appellate decision is controlling) came to different conclusions kinda illustrates the risks that one takes by taking your chances in court. IMHO its much better to be cautious and avoid actions that may result in you sitting at the defendant's table in court. You just can't be certain how it's going to end.

ivsamhell
05-06-2012, 5:51 PM
Ok dad I understand

no, you don't.

PanaDP
05-06-2012, 6:52 PM
Ok dad I understand

The fact that you have that attitude shows that you don't understand. You'll understand when you screw around and shoot somebody. Have fun with that.

Glock Girl in CA
05-06-2012, 7:04 PM
It's like one of those things that you have to watch out for. I cleared my glock, handed it to a friend who is really good with firearms. He checks it and says it feels light and top heavy. I told him with a magazine it feels different. I hand him and empty magazine and he put it in and he said it still felt funny. I so hand him a full magazine he puts it in, then he goes to "check to see if it's loaded" (I handed it to him no magazine and action open) by pulling the slide back. I yell "NO!!" and I grab the gun. It's just these simple things that people do that can make a huge problem. He said he wasn't going to pull the slide all the way back to check, but still, how am I supposed to know that?
Ok, Boys, please don't yell at me. I'm new , very new, and I read your threads all the time so I can glean wisdom and deeper understanding of firearms(and yes, I've taken 2 classes so far and will continue). I have read and re-read this post and I can't understand why it is dangerous to pull the slide back in this instance. Help a girl out.
Thanks.

xpbprox
05-06-2012, 7:24 PM
Haha too funny guys

Glock Girl in CA
05-06-2012, 7:32 PM
Ok, Boys, please don't yell at me. I'm new , very new, and I read your threads all the time so I can glean wisdom and deeper understanding of firearms(and yes, I've taken 2 classes so far and will continue). I have read and re-read this post and I can't understand why it is dangerous to pull the slide back in this instance. Help a girl out.
Thanks.
Let me clarify: I know the gun will now be loaded should he have fully racked the slide, but I was getting the feeling that racking the slide could somehow make a round fire... Can that happen?

greybeard
05-06-2012, 7:46 PM
Let me clarify: I know the gun will now be loaded should he have fully racked the slide, but I was getting the feeling that racking the slide could somehow make a round fire... Can that happen?
Assuming your finger is outside the trigger guard and the gun is not broken in some way, racking the slide should not make the gun fire. Just make sure it is pointed in a safe direction
There is something called a press check, where you just pull the slide back a very little way, to check if round is in chamber or not, I seem press checks done where their idea of a little way was different then mine.

FalconLair
05-06-2012, 7:54 PM
accidental discharge, negligent discharge, bottom line is a firearm ended up being discharged in an unsafe manner...and NO, it doesn't happen to everyone lol 30+ years of owning at least one gun and its never discharged in any manner, unless I was firing it.

unsafe to me means proper attention was not being given with regard to the firearm

the 3 year old child that hypothetically could have suffered serious injury due to that discharge probably wouldn't give a rats a** if it was negligent or accidental

and YES, I did go there with the "hypothetical" because its the hypothetical you should be thinking about as the absolute reason to NOT let something like that happen.

imo, not knowing the gun was loaded, only leads me to believe 1 of 2 things...you either dont know enough about firearm safety to own one or you dont care enough about firearm safety to own one.

Glock Girl in CA
05-06-2012, 8:06 PM
Assuming your finger is outside the trigger guard and the gun is not broken in some way, racking the slide should not make the gun fire. Just make sure it is pointed in a safe direction
There is something called a press check, where you just pull the slide back a very little way, to check if round is in chamber or not, I seem press checks done where their idea of a little way was different then mine.
*Sigh of relief.* I was afraid I could unknowingly cause a round to fire/explode. Next question: why would someone "press check" instead of just opening the slide all the way and getting a really good look/feel in there?

greybeard
05-06-2012, 9:16 PM
*Sigh of relief.* Next question: why would someone "press check" instead of just opening the slide all the way and getting a really good look/feel in there?
Basically you press check to confirm it is loaded. If you just rack the slide, you are going to eject the round. This is okay if you want to unload and have dropped the mag already. If do not want to unload, you are now one round down. Pain in butt because you now have to drop the mag and put the round that was ejected back in to it.

Lead Waster
05-06-2012, 9:31 PM
I had an ND/AD today! But hear the details before chewing me out. I was the shooter on the line at a uspsa match. On the 'make ready' command, I draw my gun from the holster, insert a magazine and rack the slide. Now the stupid part. Since the gun is da/sa and has a safety instead of a decocker, I have to manually decocker the gun. It's uspsa production division rules and I hare doing it and I'd never do this outside of a match. So with the gun pointed downrange, I pinch the hammer with my index finger and thumb and pull the trigger. Yep ... Boom! So I nd'ed down the range safely, but it's pretty not-safe to have let this happen, so I'm rightfully disqualified. What happened? A combination of my not focussing very very hard on doing this idiotic act of manually decocting a gun with a perfectly functioning safety, and my stupidity in oiling the gun's hammer the night before. I went home and tried to figure out what I did wrong. Did I pull the trigger before I was sure I had a very firm grip on it? I noticed the excessive oil, but that's no excuse. One thing for sure, I will never take that task lightly ever again. There was no reason to rush the decocking. I also wish uspsa would change this rule, or at least allow decocking to the half cock position, which would allow me to quickly squeeze the release the trigger, allowing the firing pin block to re-engage. Full decocker means keeping the trigger pulled the whole time which deactivated the fpb.

Ok, wall of text over. Sorry fir the spelling mistakes, I'm pecking this out on my iPhone.

Kerplow
05-06-2012, 9:55 PM
This thread reminds me of something an old timer coworker of mine said about losing digits on the job. Basically, he said that if and when he loses a part of his body at work, it's time to find another line of work. That's kinda how I feel about ND's. If you can't safely handle weapons you should find another hobby. It's not hard to rack a slide/bolt/action/whatever. Make it a habit to be the first thing you do every time you pick up a gun.

tal3nt
05-07-2012, 12:15 PM
Listen, you don't have to had negligently discharged a firearm YOURSELF for you to have experienced one. When you're around guns and people with guns for long enough, chances are you going to experience a NG. By participating in this thread, you have all experienced a NG. LEARN FROM IT. Humans are imperfect and capable of making mistakes which isn't to say the OP's "friend" didn't royally screw up, but it's a relief that no one got hurt and I'm almost certain that his friend will never again fail to follow all safety rules when handling a gun.

BigDogatPlay
05-07-2012, 12:19 PM
Negligent Discharge in violation of Penal Code section 243.6 requires that the person acted willfully. The jury instruction defines the required state of mind:
"Someone commits an act willfully when he or she does it willingly or on purpose." The jury instruction references Penal Code section 7 for the definition.

Unless a person discharges a firearm on purpose under circumstances when it is not safe to do so they are not guilty of this crime. They may be guilty of being stupid, but that is not the same thing.


^^^ Bingo ^^^.... which is why I framed the question above the way I did.

:)

Big Dog,

Almost all of the cases that I'm familiar with were either celebratory gunfire, or target shooting at inappropriate sites.

There is a currently news story in circulation (check the major news sites - I'm not posting them here because I'm uncertain of the copyright status) where the daughter of actor Robert Wagner and Natalie Wood was arrested, along with her boyfriend after deputies responded to a "shots fired" call at their residence. The news reports are not very detailed about the circumstances of the shooting, but the narratives all seem consistent with an AD/ND. The boyfriend was arrested for 246.3.

But was he convicted on 246.3? See the jury instruction cited above. If the prosecution can't meet that burden of proof then the charge is inappropriate. Granted in the real world us LEOs always book for the highest charge, and we do what the DA's office tells us to. However, the DA's office has a burden to give us lawful direction, and applying a 246.3 charge when the elements don't exist in the first place seems to me to border on having a strong desire to make case law on the part of the DA.

SouperMan
05-07-2012, 1:33 PM
Ok, Boys, please don't yell at me. I'm new , very new, and I read your threads all the time so I can glean wisdom and deeper understanding of firearms(and yes, I've taken 2 classes so far and will continue). I have read and re-read this post and I can't understand why it is dangerous to pull the slide back in this instance. Help a girl out.
Thanks.

With a Glock and most Semi-Automatic Handguns, if you pull back on the slide with a fully loaded magazine in place, you will load a chamber in the round.

I so hand him a full magazine he puts it in, then he goes to "check to see if it's loaded" (I handed it to him no magazine and action open) by pulling the slide back.

The firearm is now in a ready to fire position.

whipkiller
05-07-2012, 1:40 PM
I had an ND/AD today! But hear the details before chewing me out. I was the shooter on the line at a uspsa match. On the 'make ready' command, I draw my gun from the holster, insert a magazine and rack the slide. Now the stupid part. Since the gun is da/sa and has a safety instead of a decocker, I have to manually decocker the gun. It's uspsa production division rules and I hare doing it and I'd never do this outside of a match. So with the gun pointed downrange, I pinch the hammer with my index finger and thumb and pull the trigger. Yep ... Boom! So I nd'ed down the range safely, but it's pretty not-safe to have let this happen, so I'm rightfully disqualified. What happened? A combination of my not focussing very very hard on doing this idiotic act of manually decocting a gun with a perfectly functioning safety, and my stupidity in oiling the gun's hammer the night before. I went home and tried to figure out what I did wrong. Did I pull the trigger before I was sure I had a very firm grip on it? I noticed the excessive oil, but that's no excuse. One thing for sure, I will never take that task lightly ever again. There was no reason to rush the decocking. I also wish uspsa would change this rule, or at least allow decocking to the half cock position, which would allow me to quickly squeeze the release the trigger, allowing the firing pin block to re-engage. Full decocker means keeping the trigger pulled the whole time which deactivated the fpb.

Ok, wall of text over. Sorry fir the spelling mistakes, I'm pecking this out on my iPhone.

Was this on an SP-01 by chance? I seem to recall you owning one.

SouperMan
05-07-2012, 1:49 PM
Basically you press check to confirm it is loaded. If you just rack the slide, you are going to eject the round. This is okay if you want to unload and have dropped the mag already. If do not want to unload, you are now one round down. Pain in butt because you now have to drop the mag and put the round that was ejected back in to it.

^^^Yup.

Most guns also have a Loaded Chamber Indicator (LCI) (hate it or love it...). When there is a round in the chamber in my Glock, a protrusion that is built into the extractor is lifted up from the slide and can be felt if you swipe with your hand. However, on my older Glock, the LCI was not a requirement when it was made...so it does not have a LCI...That's why one never assumes by looking at the LCI..and one never assumes that a gun is unloaded unless you check it yourself because of the variations.

drifter2be
05-07-2012, 1:59 PM
^^^Yup.

Most guns also have a Loaded Chamber Indicator (LCI) (hate it or love it...). When there is a round in the chamber in my Glock, a protrusion that is built into the extractor is lifted up from the slide and can be felt if you swipe with your hand. However, on my older Glock, the LCI was not a requirement when it was made...so it does not have a LCI...That's why one never assumes by looking at the LCI..and one never assumes that a gun is unloaded unless you check it yourself because of the variations.

This is why I think LCIs are a stupid requirement. It is just something that is going to help increase people being lax about performing a proper safety check when they pick up a gun. Not to mention what happens when someone that is used to having the LCI picks up an older model gun that does not have one? Some will assume since there is no LCI protruding that the chamber is empty, which will lead to an eventual ND.

Sometimes I almost think it should be a requirement to take a firearms safety course before being allowed to purchase a gun, especially when I see some of the stupid safety violations that go on at the range, people dry-firing weapons pointed at other people in gun stores, and read threads about negligent discharges.

Lead Waster
05-07-2012, 2:31 PM
Whipkiller, yes, it was my SP-01.

The RO asked "Why did you do that? (decock manually)" I told him "Because the gun does not have a decocker and USPSA rules state that DA/SA guns must start from hammer full down". His response was "Buy a safer gun, like a Beretta".

My reply was that the gun is perfectly safe, if operated as intended (use the safety if it's cocked!) but USPSA rules are USPSA rules if you want to play, you gotta play by the rules. It was 100% my fault. I went home and decocked the unloaded gun 30 times without the hammer slipping. It was a lack of focus that will not happen again, and the DQ and embarrassment is enough of a wake up to be a "cheap lesson". I was actually amazed that my thumb and index finger weren't cut up by the slide recoiling back while my fingers were around the hammer "area", though my fingers were in the way enough that the slide didn't cycle all the way back and there was a FTF. I wonder ... did I LET the hammer slip or did I pull the trigger at the same time as I was pinching or worse ... did I pull the trigger without a proper grip on the hammer? Well, at the range, with the gun pointed downrange was the best place to get this wake up!

The fact that I'm not sure what happens is what makes me say that I was not focused on the task. If I were, I should be able to say "I definitely had the hammer firmly held AND THEN I pulled the trigger AND THEN the oily hammer slipped from my grip", instead of "I was decocking it and it fired"

The SP-01 does NOT have a decocker, but it DOES have a firing pin block (which is useless if your trigger is pulled).

Will I replace it with a Glock for USPSA? No. I might get a glock just to have one in 9mm, but the trigger on that SP-01 is ... I can't even explain it's awesomeness, even in DA mode it is light and sweet. (too sweet maybe!).

JeremyS
05-07-2012, 3:00 PM
Whipkiller, yes, it was my SP-01.

The RO asked "Why did you do that? (decock manually)" I told him "Because the gun does not have a decocker and USPSA rules state that DA/SA guns must start from hammer full down". His response was "Buy a safer gun, like a Beretta".

The SP-01 does NOT have a decocker, but it DOES have a firing pin block (which is useless if your trigger is pulled).
Can you change the main spring in the division you want to shoot in? From the factory, it's really strong. Going lighter will make the slide easier to rack when the hammer is down and it would make the scenario you described less likely. There's extra travel in the hammer though that's beyond where it sits on the sear -- when I manually decock I pull the hammer back/down, taking all of the spring weight off the sear, to make sure that I really have a full grip on the hammer and am supporting the full spring tension before pulling the trigger to lower it. Plus, there's no sudden change in tension when the trigger is pulled, which I think is the main thing that will make it slip. I still try to avoid manually decocking with a round in the chamber whenever humanely possible though.

You could switch to a decocker model CZ. Unfortunately, the cuts in the frame are apparently different and you cannot convert yours to decocker only.

I admit that the only reason my SP-01 is still DA/SA is because of this exact USPSA rule. I would have converted it to SAO otherwise.

Lead Waster
05-07-2012, 3:12 PM
^^ You have the technique down correctly, that's what I should have done ... after pinching the hammer, I should have pulled it back a bit to ENSURE that I had it tightly!

Yes, the mainspring is a lighter one from CGW, it came with the gun (I bought it used). When I was at the gunstore, I picked up an HK USP and uh ... a Sig 226 and when I pulled the trigger on DA, I was surprised how massively heavy it was! The SP-01 (with the Cajun Gunworks spring) was incredibly light by comparison! The trade off is I have to load my ammo with Federal primers which is more sensitive (which probably helped with the ND as well).

If I wanted SAO, I have the CZ-75SA which only fits in Limited or Limited-10. It's 9mm so realistically, it's only competitive in Limited with a 19 round magazine (but I'm in CA), and then again, scoring minor and having maybe one less reload is not a good trade off. It's a fantastic gun otherwise.

I actually bought the SP-01 specifically for USPSA Production (Glock would have been cheaper!) because I shoot he CZ-75 SA so much better than any other gun I have (including my 1911, but that has more to do with flinching with .45s for me than the gun itself)

RickD427
05-07-2012, 3:54 PM
^^^ Bingo ^^^.... which is why I framed the question above the way I did.

:)



But was he convicted on 246.3? See the jury instruction cited above. If the prosecution can't meet that burden of proof then the charge is inappropriate. Granted in the real world us LEOs always book for the highest charge, and we do what the DA's office tells us to. However, the DA's office has a burden to give us lawful direction, and applying a 246.3 charge when the elements don't exist in the first place seems to me to border on having a strong desire to make case law on the part of the DA.

Big Dog,

The arrest was quite recent. The case is going to take some time to meander through the court system......................

Mana4real
05-07-2012, 4:05 PM
Ok, Boys, please don't yell at me. I'm new , very new, and I read your threads all the time so I can glean wisdom and deeper understanding of firearms(and yes, I've taken 2 classes so far and will continue). I have read and re-read this post and I can't understand why it is dangerous to pull the slide back in this instance. Help a girl out.
Thanks.

When he was checking out my gun, it was in my apartment. Not the best place to have a loaded gun if not intending to use it. Especially with 124 grain +P rounds in it. In my mind there was no reason to rack it. So I stopped that action. I didn't know he was going to partially pull the slide. There is not reason to have a round in the chamber unless planned to use it. I was basically covering my bases. I don't want a ND in my apartment.

Glock Girl in CA
05-07-2012, 9:47 PM
When he was checking out my gun, it was in my apartment. Not the best place to have a loaded gun if not intending to use it. Especially with 124 grain +P rounds in it. In my mind there was no reason to rack it. So I stopped that action. I didn't know he was going to partially pull the slide. There is not reason to have a round in the chamber unless planned to use it. I was basically covering my bases. I don't want a ND in my apartment.
Got it. Sorry, was reading more into it the first time. I had read it as though he was about to cause immediate damage to his person or your gun. I knew he would be chambering a round, but since one can just remove it, I assumed there was a larger and more dangerous result that would have occurred. Glad to have cleared that up,vand yes, i wouldnt want the gun loaded either.

I keep worrying that some vital rule of gun safety will elude me. For instance, today I learned what a "hang fire" is!
Check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjDu5zwa4rM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Mana4real
05-08-2012, 7:44 AM
Got it. Sorry, was reading more into it the first time. I had read it as though he was about to cause immediate damage to his person or your gun. I knew he would be chambering a round, but since one can just remove it, I assumed there was a larger and more dangerous result that would have occurred. Glad to have cleared that up,vand yes, i wouldnt want the gun loaded either.

I keep worrying that some vital rule of gun safety will elude me. For instance, today I learned what a "hang fire" is!
Check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjDu5zwa4rM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

OH MY GOD!!! What an IDIOT!!!

whipkiller
05-08-2012, 8:18 AM
Whipkiller, yes, it was my SP-01.

The RO asked "Why did you do that? (decock manually)" I told him "Because the gun does not have a decocker and USPSA rules state that DA/SA guns must start from hammer full down". His response was "Buy a safer gun, like a Beretta".

My reply was that the gun is perfectly safe, if operated as intended (use the safety if it's cocked!) but USPSA rules are USPSA rules if you want to play, you gotta play by the rules. It was 100% my fault. I went home and decocked the unloaded gun 30 times without the hammer slipping. It was a lack of focus that will not happen again, and the DQ and embarrassment is enough of a wake up to be a "cheap lesson". I was actually amazed that my thumb and index finger weren't cut up by the slide recoiling back while my fingers were around the hammer "area", though my fingers were in the way enough that the slide didn't cycle all the way back and there was a FTF. I wonder ... did I LET the hammer slip or did I pull the trigger at the same time as I was pinching or worse ... did I pull the trigger without a proper grip on the hammer? Well, at the range, with the gun pointed downrange was the best place to get this wake up!

The fact that I'm not sure what happens is what makes me say that I was not focused on the task. If I were, I should be able to say "I definitely had the hammer firmly held AND THEN I pulled the trigger AND THEN the oily hammer slipped from my grip", instead of "I was decocking it and it fired"

The SP-01 does NOT have a decocker, but it DOES have a firing pin block (which is useless if your trigger is pulled).

Will I replace it with a Glock for USPSA? No. I might get a glock just to have one in 9mm, but the trigger on that SP-01 is ... I can't even explain it's awesomeness, even in DA mode it is light and sweet. (too sweet maybe!).

Yeah, I would have to say this is the only aspect of my SP-01 that I'm not completely in love with.

I will practice manually decocking (unloaded at home, loaded at the range pointed in a safe direction) to become proficient and "comfortable" with it, (not sure I want to ever be "comfortable" lowering the hammer on a live round) but mainly just for the same reason you do it, future competition. I don't plan to make a habit of it.

What are the rules on this for the other sanctioning bodies? (IDPA, etc)

Lead Waster, thanks for educating us on this; many people probably wouldn't be so open about an ND for fear of the internet commandos ridicule.

I'm glad you were pointing downrange and that your hand wasn't bitten when it popped.

CriticallyStressed
05-08-2012, 8:28 AM
There IS such a thing as an AD... IF something is mechanically wrong with the gun and you didn't realize it yet. Gun malfunctions and hammer follows while chambering a round on an HD pistol? Fine, accident.

"I thought it was unloaded, derp derp derp?" Negligent.

In theory yes, in reality its pretty non existent.

Not just theory in my case...

A few years ago I was loading up my HD pistol (Old Series 70 1911) and the sear spring had broken at some point close to the end of the last range trip and I didn't realize it. When I chambered the round the sear didn't engage the hammer and the hammer followed the slide into battery resulting in an AD.

I have always been scrupulous about safety so I had the pistol angled down towards the floor at a 45-deg angle at a solid wood piece of furniture and towards an exterior wall on the side of the house where there are no neighbors (basically the safest possible direction should the unthinkable occur). Nobody was injured (other than some hearing loss for me) and the only thing I had to do was replace that particular piece of furniture (I've kept the damaged portion and the recovered bullet and have framed it as a reminder).

I guess my point is that while AD's are extremely rare (and ND's are, unfortunately, all too common), they do happen if the firearm mechanically fails as mine did.

meaty-btz
05-08-2012, 8:29 AM
Manual Decocking is what got me my one and only ND. I am a BIG fan of decockers. You can manually decock a gun a thousand times and still make one small error during the manual decock and you will get an ND. From the safety standpoint a decocker is an intelligent addition as it solves the reason why manual decocking is risky... pulling the trigger. The only time that trigger should get pulled is to fire. As a revolver guy manual decocking is the norm. If you have the gun in SA with the hammer back you CANNOT OPEN THE CYLINDER. You must manually decock the gun, which is a risky move every time.

Therefor I am equally displeased with weapons that require pulling the trigger to field strip. The trigger should be for one job and one job only, to discharge the weapon.

Moto4Fun
05-08-2012, 12:48 PM
Regarding decocking the SP-01 and dropping hammers during competition:
- I had an SP-01 and I felt that it's design intent is to be a SA pistol with double strike capability and intended to be operated as cocked and locked. I may be wrong, but that is how I believed it should be operated and that is how I kept mine. The long heavy DA pull is not something I ever wanted to use.
-Now, having shot my first pistol competition (IDPA), I see an issue with a couple different aspects of the safety procedures. The first would be related to CZ SP-01 as well as HK USP type mechanisms. If I intend to carry it cocked and locked, why should I have to decock to start the string of fire. It seems like it increases the chance of something going wrong, and is not doing what the process is intended: to increase safety. Secondly, the idea of dropping the hammer at the end of the stage is questionable when it comes to striker fired pistols. What purpose does it serve? If I drop the magazine and stow it, then show empty and close the slide; where does the hammer drop make anything safer? Particularly, when you are forced to load an empty mag into a gun that has magazine disconnect.

I have had an ND and my dad has had an ND. Neither of us are proud of it, but I am not ashamed to admit it. His was in attempt to manually decock a 1911. He was not familiar with the intended operation of the 1911, and for some reason felt the need to decock on a live round, and his technique was poor. It scared him to death and made him extremely embarrassed. I don't think he has handled any of his pistols since then.

My scenario was a little different. I found a mkII type pistol in an ex-girlfriend's house. Her ex-husband had left it in a closet loaded and ready to rock with a toddler in the house. I was not well versed on the handling of this particular pistol, and was not certain about the safety. I tried to clear it, but the slide was stuck. I figured my only option was to clear it and/or verify the operation of the safety. So I pointed it in a safe direction and pulled the trigger. I sent a round in to the baseboard, and freaked the girl friend out. But in my opinion, the gun was NOW in a safe condition. Nonetheless, I was embarrassed that the only way I was able to verify the safe condition of this crappy knock off .22 was to discharge it.

Stuff happens. What matters most is what you learn from it. Ideally everyone reading these types of threads will be able to learn from others' mistakes so that they can avoid making them themselves.

tacticalcity
05-08-2012, 12:54 PM
Ok, Boys, please don't yell at me. I'm new , very new, and I read your threads all the time so I can glean wisdom and deeper understanding of firearms(and yes, I've taken 2 classes so far and will continue). I have read and re-read this post and I can't understand why it is dangerous to pull the slide back in this instance. Help a girl out.
Thanks.

I was a little confused by that post as well. I think he was trying to say the guy was going to close the slide with a loaded magazine in the gun, which would have chambered a round and loaded the gun...which he did not want to have happen while the gun was in an inexperienced guy's hands. I'm just guessing.

Definately would not yell at ya! We Glock people have to stick together. Very cool about your having 2 courses under your belt thus far. Very grateful to see another member join the ranks of the trained.

tacticalcity
05-08-2012, 12:59 PM
OH MY GOD!!! What an IDIOT!!!

For a second there I thought it was going to turn out to be a snuff film. That guy is very lucky to be alive. Apparently he learned how to shoot by watching Elmer Fudd on Bugs Bunny cartoons.