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choprzrul
05-02-2012, 10:16 PM
Since CA is a community property state, what's mine is hers and what's hers is mine (in theory anyway but not necessarily in operation :D ). However, GCA says we can build firearms for personal use but not with the intent to sell.

Is it strictly "SELL", or can we gift 80% builds to family members?

Does that include gifting to a spouse?

Does that include building an 80% specifically for a spouse?

If I die, does my wife have to serialize my 80% prior to taking possession?

If I die, does my wife have to DROS my 80% to herself?


GCA + CA BS = Mass Confusion

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**EDIT**

Has estate planning for home built firearms been hashed out somewhere here before? I don't remember reading about it and the 'search' button isn't helping me any.

If a home build needs a serial number to transfer, and the builder of the firearm is deceased, how would a survivor proceed? If they serialize, then they are contributing to another person's 80% build.

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repubconserv
05-02-2012, 10:57 PM
I think home building a firearm is specifically for personal use. If you do build it for yourself and get tired of it, gifting it to your wife is definitely legal.


As far as what changes, nothing really. The ATF claims (without, I believe, any backing of law) that once you transfer a home-built firearm it needs to be marked to the same requirements of a manufacturer (Serial number, name of manufacturer, city/state of manufacturer).

So to be extra super duper safe, you would mark it with a serial number, your name, and the City/State where you manufactured it (EX: San Diego, CA).

husbands and wives can give guns to each other, in an 'operation of law' called 'transmutation' (Family Code 850 The implication here is that firearms are separate, not community property - but why that should be so is not clear; further discussion of community property and related topics is far outside the scope of this article).

Long guns need no paper
27870 (was 12078(c)(1)) means long guns are paperless. There is no fee, there is no notification, and there is no age limit. This is scheduled to change in January, 2014.

So, build for yourself, but gifting is legal if you decide to do so after it is built for yourself. It is highly recommended you engrave it with serial, etc. No DROS involved as long as you are married to her

sergtjim
05-03-2012, 5:58 AM
Originally Posted by CHS
As far as what changes, nothing really. The ATF claims (without, I believe, any backing of law) that once you transfer a home-built firearm it needs to be marked to the same requirements of a manufacturer (Serial number, name of manufacturer, city/state of manufacturer).

So to be extra super duper safe, you would mark it with a serial number, your name, and the City/State where you manufactured it (EX: San Diego, CA).


Serial numbers weren't required on firearms until GCA68 became law, and it only requires "licensed Manufacturers" to serialize.

Under Federal law, a personally-constructed firearm does not need a serial number at any time. BATFE suggests that they be marked, but there is no Federal legal requirement to do so, no matter how many hands they pass through.

Local laws may be different.

choprzrul
05-03-2012, 6:22 PM
Originally Posted by CHS
As far as what changes, nothing really. The ATF claims (without, I believe, any backing of law) that once you transfer a home-built firearm it needs to be marked to the same requirements of a manufacturer (Serial number, name of manufacturer, city/state of manufacturer).

So to be extra super duper safe, you would mark it with a serial number, your name, and the City/State where you manufactured it (EX: San Diego, CA).


Serial numbers weren't required on firearms until GCA68 became law, and it only requires "licensed Manufacturers" to serialize.

Under Federal law, a personally-constructed firearm does not need a serial number at any time. BATFE suggests that they be marked, but there is no Federal legal requirement to do so, no matter how many hands they pass through.

Local laws may be different.


So, that all means that I don't need to worry about planning for my eventual demise & how my dear wife is going to transfer my 80% build(s)?

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mrdd
05-03-2012, 6:46 PM
Originally Posted by CHS
As far as what changes, nothing really. The ATF claims (without, I believe, any backing of law) that once you transfer a home-built firearm it needs to be marked to the same requirements of a manufacturer (Serial number, name of manufacturer, city/state of manufacturer).

So to be extra super duper safe, you would mark it with a serial number, your name, and the City/State where you manufactured it (EX: San Diego, CA).


Serial numbers weren't required on firearms until GCA68 became law, and it only requires "licensed Manufacturers" to serialize.

Under Federal law, a personally-constructed firearm does not need a serial number at any time. BATFE suggests that they be marked, but there is no Federal legal requirement to do so, no matter how many hands they pass through.

Local laws may be different.

Actually, you will have a hard time transferring an unmarked item. While there is no law or regulation which requires non-licensees to mark items they manufacture, according to the Code of Federal Regulations:

27 CFR 478.124 (c) (4) The licensee shall identify the firearm to be transferred by listing on the Form 4473 the name of the manufacturer, the name of the importer (if any), the type, model, caliber or gauge, and the serial number of the firearm.

This is a requirement directed at the FFL doing the transfer. I suspect you will also have a difficult time submitting an operation of law, etc. form to the CA DOJ which is missing the required information.

turrican
05-03-2012, 7:03 PM
Who's to say she didn't build it herself?

mrdd
05-03-2012, 7:09 PM
Who's to say she didn't build it herself?

That wouldn't exactly be honest, now would it?

stix213
05-03-2012, 8:06 PM
Who's to say she didn't build it herself?

I believe the OP did on a public forum. Plus it is easier to remember the truth at a later date than a web of lies.

choprzrul
05-03-2012, 8:15 PM
I believe the OP did on a public forum. Plus it is easier to remember the truth at a later date than a web of lies.

Is it strictly "SELL", or can we gift 80% builds to family members?

Does that include gifting to a spouse?

Does that include building an 80% specifically for a spouse?

If I die, does my wife have to serialize my 80% prior to taking possession?

If I die, does my wife have to DROS my 80% to herself?


Nope. Nowhere in there did I say I've already done this or I'm going to do this; rather, I am engaging in an exercise of the 6 P's: Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

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mrdd
05-04-2012, 6:46 AM
I'll take a stab at this. Comments below in bold.

Since CA is a community property state, what's mine is hers and what's hers is mine (in theory anyway but not necessarily in operation :D ). However, GCA says we can build firearms for personal use but not with the intent to sell.

I cannot find where it actually says that in the federal statutes. It says that you need a license to "engage in the business..of manufacturing..with the principal objective of livelihood or profit". If you are making fewer than 50 items in a calendar year, you are exempt from paying excise taxes. State law also says that you need a license from the state only if you are licensed by the feds.

Is it strictly "SELL", or can we gift 80% builds to family members?

As long as you are not engaged in a business as defined by the feds, there does not appear to be a prohibition against manufacturing and then gifting directly to a parent or child, grandparent or grandchild. This is assuming that you are both residents of the state.

Does that include gifting to a spouse?

Yes. Transfers to spouses are handled separately, but similarly. Again, assuming that you are both residents of the state.

Does that include building an 80% specifically for a spouse?

I cannot see why not. Note that there are state limits on the number of transfers per calendar year you can do without PPT between specified family members or your spouse.

If I die, does my wife have to serialize my 80% prior to taking possession?

If your 80% is personal property when you pass, your spouse can take possession by operation of law. If she is the executor of your estate, no notice is required by the state.

If I die, does my wife have to DROS my 80% to herself?

Nope, she is exempt from PPT by operation of law, and if she is executor, no paper is required.


GCA + CA BS = Mass Confusion

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ETA: I think it still makes sense to mark home builds at the time of manufacture because it will make all subsequent transfers possible without extra work.

choprzrul
05-04-2012, 5:43 PM
Mr. double Ds: Thank you for your logicl and factual replies to my questions.

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