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oaklander
05-02-2012, 10:22 AM
The general rule is to not talk to media. I am saying this as someone who used to be a Director at a PR firm. Do not talk to media. Do not talk to media.

HOWEVER, what usually happens is that someone didn't get the memo, and we end up having to do damage control. Perhaps the most egregious example of this, recently, is the KPIX / CBS5 story that ran up here. I will not bore you with the details. You can read them here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=566306

In KPIX's case, since they were so completely wrong, and apparently, also may have committed an actual felony on camera, we are now launching a media blitz to correct them.

Please let me explain how this is done.

First, the rule is that propaganda is fought with TRUTH. In fact, in military circles, people have figured out that truth is better than propaganda, since once someone finds out that they have been lied to, they don't trust you anymore.

Same here.

We need to point out the lies when we see them. And we do this using Facebook, Twitter, Forums, Blogs, and our own media outlets.

In really bad cases of media bias (like the KPIX story), we also start talking to advertisers, investors, and local community leaders and opinion makers. Our intent is to shame the opposition into saying truth. If they do not, we marginalize them, using their own media.

Media has an effect on voters, and anyone who has studied Chomsky knows this. I need to remind people that it was MEDIA, that screwed things up for us, with the Panthers. Of course, the Panthers probably could have done things differently. But it was that massive front page headline that screwed us. And I also need to remind people that gun control, at least modern style gun control, started WITH THAT ONE EVENT.

The media sways uneducated voters, and they vote to decrease their own rights. This is how it is done. It is bread and circuses, basically.

To fight that, you literally use the sword of truth. And now, since the media is not just one or two large conglomerates, we can do that.

But never underestimate the power of a SINGLE bad or good, story.

http://www.iveknownrivers.org/stories/vol_002/panthermania-2006-04-13/beeheadline.jpg

yakmon
05-02-2012, 10:45 AM
good stuff, this. I think there will be an increasing number of these anti gun hit pieces.

Casual_Shooter
05-02-2012, 10:59 AM
Who is this "we" who is launching a media blitz?

First, the rule is that propaganda is fought with TRUTH...... snip..... We need to point out the lies when we see them. And we do this using Facebook, Twitter, Forums, Blogs, and our own media outlets.

The problem lies within the perception of everyone's "truth" and how they present that truth. My guess is your version of what should be posted on the above sites differs from at least one other person with access to a computer and the internet.

What happens when they post a different truth than what you would like posted?

oaklander
05-02-2012, 11:39 AM
Who is this "we" who is launching a media blitz?



The problem lies within the perception of everyone's "truth" and how they present that truth. My guess is your version of what should be posted on the above sites differs from at least one other person with access to a computer and the internet.

What happens when they post a different truth than what you would like posted?

Truth is whatever is in the peer reviewed books, the UCR stats, etc. It is not "my" truth. I only report what I see. . .

If it can be verified, it is truth.

Post whatever you like, as long as it is true. And if it is anecdotal, or an opinion - state such things. This is what we are taught, as journalists, anyways - this is nothing new. And again, I need to remind people that before I was a director at a PR firm, I wrote more than 70 nationally published articles on things relating to marketing and ethics. Back when I was doing it, I was considered somewhat of an expert on the ethics of marketing attorneys.

LOL

I know that seems kind of funny!!!

So don't freak out - just listen.

ALSO - this stuff doesn't work if it is done with hate inside of your head. I know this is esoteric, but we must strive to work out of love for our rights, and for our fellow humans. After all, we are here because we want to see people be able to live. That is the main reason for self defense:

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. LITERALLY. No joke.

We must never become "those people."

That is why Occupy failed, and if you all DO NOT think we are now a social movement, please wake up.

non sequitur
05-02-2012, 11:58 AM
"Media has an effect on voters, and anyone who has studied Chomsky knows this."

^THIS!

As a UC Davis undergraduate in the early 1990s, I saw Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" and this movie forever changed the way I mentally filter the usual daily mass media blitz. It is a must see for anyone interested in the propaganda and brain washing tactics of the mass media in America.

oaklander
05-02-2012, 12:22 PM
"Media has an effect on voters, and anyone who has studied Chomsky knows this."

^THIS!

As a UC Davis undergraduate in the early 1990s, I saw Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" and this movie forever changed the way I mentally filter the usual daily mass media blitz. It is a must see for anyone interested in the propaganda and brain washing tactics of the mass media in America.

Yes, and the importance of making sure that the media is at least "accurate" on these issues cannot be minimized.

Upon reflection, I think that we have already had two effects:

1) The odds of that station EVER running another hit piece on our rights, are about ZERO, as of now.

2) The odds of other local media outlets doing the same, are about ZERO, as of now.

People know each other, here in the Bay Area, and the fact IS that gun control is abosluitely racist, and is a form of oppression and control. And what started as a noose around the rights of "certain people" to carry loaded and open (the Mulford Act), has spread like cancer, and now infects the entire state, harming all law abiding citizens.

And it started with that ONE newspaper headline.

it is not an intellectual stretch to say that any media stories that intentionally lie about our rights, are in the same vein as the one that I posted. And people who call the shots at local media outlets are aware of this.

Now.

Drivedabizness
05-02-2012, 12:24 PM
Oak - why not just call your own press conference? Invite KPIX (and their competitors) to cover it. Pull the footage showing them committing a felony and show it at your PC. Have s summary of some of the key cases CGF is supporting.

Put that footage on youtube. Show where they committed to felony. Send that footage to Kamala, and Iggy and Allison and ask for their follow-up. Ask the press to ask them where the follow up is.

Certainly people who go that far out of their way to break the law (to try and implicate law-abiding gun owners) should be contrasted with the gun rights folks like us - who go so far out of their way, every day, to comply with laws that have no rational basis and are unconstitutional to boot. But we do it because we don't want to go to jail. And even when we do, we run the risk of being arrested and jailed because LEO's would rather punish us for our impudence.

Whew - that felt good!

M. D. Van Norman
05-02-2012, 12:33 PM
First, the rule is that propaganda is fought with TRUTH. In fact Ö people have figured out that truth is better than propaganda, since once someone finds out that they have been lied to, they donít trust you anymore.

That may work for you or me or a few others, but there seems to be a very large contingent of people who desperately want to believe the lie. You can show them data or reason with logic, but they will still dismiss your arguments outright. It becomes very frustrating.

You know that Iím with you on this, but I still feel like a voice in the wilderness. :(

oaklander
05-02-2012, 2:08 PM
That may work for you or me or a few others, but there seems to be a very large contingent of people who desperately want to believe the lie. You can show them data or reason with logic, but they will still dismiss your arguments outright. It becomes very frustrating.

You know that Iím with you on this, but I still feel like a voice in the wilderness. :(

I used to feel that way when the comments were stacked against us. But look at the comments now - right on their own website and FB page. There is simply no way that the spread of truth can be stopped. And of course, the litigation DRIVES this.

it is a symbiosis of power.

oaklander
05-02-2012, 2:12 PM
Oak - why not just call your own press conference? Invite KPIX (and their competitors) to cover it. Pull the footage showing them committing a felony and show it at your PC. Have s summary of some of the key cases CGF is supporting.

Put that footage on youtube. Show where they committed to felony. Send that footage to Kamala, and Iggy and Allison and ask for their follow-up. Ask the press to ask them where the follow up is.

Certainly people who go that far out of their way to break the law (to try and implicate law-abiding gun owners) should be contrasted with the gun rights folks like us - who go so far out of their way, every day, to comply with laws that have no rational basis and are unconstitutional to boot. But we do it because we don't want to go to jail. And even when we do, we run the risk of being arrested and jailed because LEO's would rather punish us for our impudence.

Whew - that felt good!

I am doing something better. I am forming a PAC in Oakland to contribute to people who have rational views on things. The gun issue is not the only one that gets screwed up. And this is an election year. . .

I think this bruhahah is a microcosmic example of what has messed up our entire country. The voice of the PEOPLE has essentially been quashed by people who have money and power. But like the CGF slogan says, strength DOES come from the mass of the American people.

And social media allows us to organize, and spread the word of truth. And just look at what we have done on just this one issue. We ARE #winning!!!!

And this model can be applied to any problem with a government that has gone off the rails. You simply get right thinking people together, and they use the system itself, to self-correct.

sholling
05-02-2012, 4:03 PM
That may work for you or me or a few others, but there seems to be a very large contingent of people who desperately want to believe the lie. You can show them data or reason with logic, but they will still dismiss your arguments outright. It becomes very frustrating.

You know that I’m with you on this, but I still feel like a voice in the wilderness. :(
Exposing the Big Lies (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/big+lie) told by the media and in universities works but takes time and loud reasoned repetition. That's why Progressive work so hard to silence those that expose their lies. The long running "Fox lies" disinformation campaign, the current efforts by Color Of Change (http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/middle-class-guy/2012/apr/14/van-jones-and-color-change-should-be-ignored/) to intimidate ALEC (stand your ground supporters) supporters into silence and the Progressive tactic of getting conservatives' Twitter accounts suspended (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/04/30/Left-Manipulates-Twitter-ban-Conservatives-Buzzfeed-shrugs) are all example of what Andrew Klavan calls "shutupery" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHgUE9AD4s). The only way to keep fooling the public into giving up their 2nd Amendment (and other) rights is to keep repeating the Progressive Big Lies while silencing or at least marginalizing those that speak the truth as described so well in Michael Brown's satirical "The Journalist's Guide to Gun Violence Coverage" (http://gunsafe.org/position%20statements/Journalist%27s%20guide%20to%20gun%20violence%20cov erage.htm). California is the poster child for just how well the Media's Big Lie and distraction techniques work.

ldivinag
05-02-2012, 5:48 PM
OK Oak...

Who should I have on speed dial if the media wants to talk to someone?

jeff762
05-02-2012, 6:22 PM
oaklander, you should read FM3-05-301 and FM3-05-302. they just might help our cause.

monk
05-02-2012, 6:34 PM
Oaklander, are you saying I should give up my one chance at stardom by not talking to the media? How will people know me?!


But I'm with you. :D

radioman
05-02-2012, 6:59 PM
Could someone make a citizens arrest for this felony? the station manager, the anchors, the reporter and add conspiracy to commit a felony to the charges? Now that would be news.

Stonewalker
05-02-2012, 9:49 PM
Could someone make a citizens arrest for this felony? the station manager, the anchors, the reporter and add conspiracy to commit a felony to the charges? Now that would be news.

According to CA PC 197, any person would be justified if they killed the reporter in an attempt to prevent a felony or an attempt to apprehend the reporter after the felony was committed...

Just being facetious...

oaklander
05-02-2012, 10:20 PM
Lots of good stuff!

Well, I am not sure how the official media stuff works. I know all the groups coordinate, and I am not certain whether creating a kind of media arm would help us or hurt us.

And here is the reason why.

If we stay as a loose coalition, that only coordinates on certain things, then we stay more agile. As long as no group works against another group, then everything is fine.

I think that TOO much centralization actually hurts, at least right now.

Also, it might have the opposite effect of causing our media opponents to actually kind of "ramp up" against us.

One thing I have learned from watching people go through legal stuff is that you never want to MAKE an opponent more irrational than they already are.

My general advice would be to NEVER talk to the media, unless you are CERTAIN that the story will be accurate. Basically, the reporter needs to be someone you have worked with in the past. But even then, sometimes a POSITIVE story can have negative effects. I think this is some of what happened to the UOC stuff.

Most people do not realize that the only people who talk to media without either a (1) existing connection, or (2) a PR firm - are people who assume that the media is fair.

Dreaded Claymore
05-03-2012, 1:02 AM
To fight that, you literally use the sword of truth.

:iagree: It also generally helps to wear the armor of God. :winkiss: (Which Epistle is that in? I forget.)

oaklander
05-03-2012, 9:19 AM
:iagree: It also generally helps to wear the armor of God. :winkiss: (Which Epistle is that in? I forget.)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A10-18&version=NIV

Ephesians.

Actually, in Oakland - many people in our religious community feel that this is a good descriptor for institutional evil. I agree, and I am one of those people.

Paul (who was the son of a Pharisee, and who spoke something like six languages) was also making the VERY common sense point that you must be better, morally, than your opposition. Many of us forget this his major opposition was the corrupt Roman empire, and that he was railing against a decline in morals. As we know, the empire eventually fell in on itself.

I had a LONG conversation with someone from my community yesterday on this exact passage. And I need to repeat that history just didn't stop repeating itself in modern times. Basically, it is always the same fight. Always has been, back to Egyptian times. Rulers just have a tendency to do certain things, and the only way around it is to be better people than they are, and literally speak truth to power.

This is why MLK got too much traction on the freedom issue, he understood it in the larger context of a people being ruled by people who have nothing but greed and fear, in their hearts. If this sounds familiar, I need to remind people that the civil rights movement that we are part of, is actually and LITERALLY the same movement that started at the lunch counters. We have always been the same movement, but we got divided over race issues. There is a movement in this country to bring us back to the vision of the Founders, and that vision was freedom for all people. They didn't practice it as well as they should. But even among the founders, there were abolitionists.

It is NOT a religious movement, but it rides on the backs of people like me, who DO have faith, and we must never forget that, or choose to exclude people who believe in God. The core of our movement is FREEDOM, and in my book, there is only one source for that. Others can see things differently, but we exclude no person, based on faith (or lack of).

BigDogatPlay
05-03-2012, 12:50 PM
After the comments started stacking up against on them on the Facebook post of the story they hid it off the page so it could only be reached with a direct link. I posted on their wall within a few minutes asking why the story had been pulled down, with the direct link inserted. They posted later that they had not pulled it down and it was still there.

The direct link yes but still hidden. But they had also put up a new wall post with the story which was attracting new comments. It was pretty obvious if one simply wanted to compare the two.

Truth and spotlighting attempts to manipulate the record ex post facto (something that has become easier to do to control the message to the 95% of non tech savvy webiots out there) are two ways we can combat the lies and the liars who spread them.

jwkincal
05-03-2012, 3:49 PM
Exposing the Big Lies (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/big+lie) told by the media and in universities works but takes time and loud reasoned repetition. That's why Progressive work so hard to silence those that expose their lies. The long running "Fox lies" disinformation campaign, the current efforts by Color Of Change (http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/middle-class-guy/2012/apr/14/van-jones-and-color-change-should-be-ignored/) to intimidate ALEC (stand your ground supporters) supporters into silence and the Progressive tactic of getting conservatives' Twitter accounts suspended (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/04/30/Left-Manipulates-Twitter-ban-Conservatives-Buzzfeed-shrugs) are all example of what Andrew Klavan calls "shutupery" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHgUE9AD4s). The only way to keep fooling the public into giving up their 2nd Amendment (and other) rights is to keep repeating the Progressive Big Lies while silencing or at least marginalizing those that speak the truth as described so well in Michael Brown's satirical "The Journalist's Guide to Gun Violence Coverage" (http://gunsafe.org/position%20statements/Journalist%27s%20guide%20to%20gun%20violence%20cov erage.htm). California is the poster child for just how well the Media's Big Lie and distraction techniques work.

Preach it, brother!

I saw the best bumper-sticker EVER yesterday. It said:

Make the lie big.
Keep it simple.
Keep repeating it.

I had never seen it put so succinctly before.

Drivedabizness
05-03-2012, 5:08 PM
:iagree: It also generally helps to wear the armor of God. :winkiss: (Which Epistle is that in? I forget.)

Ephesians

oaklander
05-03-2012, 5:18 PM
After the comments started stacking up against on them on the Facebook post of the story they hid it off the page so it could only be reached with a direct link. I posted on their wall within a few minutes asking why the story had been pulled down, with the direct link inserted. They posted later that they had not pulled it down and it was still there.

The direct link yes but still hidden. But they had also put up a new wall post with the story which was attracting new comments. It was pretty obvious if one simply wanted to compare the two.

Truth and spotlighting attempts to manipulate the record ex post facto (something that has become easier to do to control the message to the 95% of non tech savvy webiots out there) are two ways we can combat the lies and the liars who spread them.

One way to bring a firestorm of truth down on a another FB page is to upload a picture to your wall, then tag your friends, then ask them to go to the FB page that contains lies (and set the record straight). This can also be done via other means as well, like web forums and email. This is nothing new, we were doing it ten years ago (via email) when I used to do Pit Bull rescue, and we needed to set the record straight about things.

This is very much direct grassroots action, and as you can see, it DOES have effects. Again, I think that the odds of KPIX running another major lie about our rights is close to nil. . . I know people who work there, and they know we were irritated about the whole thing. I didn't even need to mention it, since they are on my own FB page.

This is the kind of subtle effect of truth. . .

It spreads. . .

NOW, who was the guy at KPIX (http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/tag/kpix/) / CBS5 who said that "we stand behind our story?"

He reminds me of THIS GUY:

CXl1GkWWGmA

pwned!

http://bit.ly/K5oakz

SilverTauron
05-03-2012, 6:03 PM
Here's the problem with fighting propaganda with "truth":a lazy and appealing lie will be more attractive to 90% of the lay people than a hard to conceive truth that's outside of their perception.

Ever debated a liberal on the topic of gun control and got emotional nonsense in return? Its not because they can't hear you. Its because we as people have preconceived notions and mold incoming information to fit it.This phenomenon is well known in psychiatric circles . We as people are wired to filter new information through our own biases. Thus, it takes real intellectual effort to look at a situation and honestly concede your previous conclusions were wrong.

We have two factors working against us: a legislative and financial machine which profits from gun control, and preconceived notions built on lies established and reinforced by deceptive politicians, deceptive laws, and deceptive media outlets over a period of decades.

Neither dilemma will be cured overnight, as their creation wasn't done in a day either. The more acceptance right to carry has, the harder and nastier the disarmament lobby-in all its forms-will fight. Our advantage is in the facts, and in converting people one person at a time. There's no media article or BS study which can counter the sheer joy of plinking with a .22LR downrange. To modify an Afghan saying, the Disarmament Lobby has the watches.....and we have the time.

oaklander
05-03-2012, 6:18 PM
Oaklander, are you saying I should give up my one chance at stardom by not talking to the media? How will people know me?!


But I'm with you. :D

LOL!!!!

:43:

oaklander
05-04-2012, 12:30 AM
Here's the problem with fighting propaganda with "truth":a lazy and appealing lie will be more attractive to 90% of the lay people than a hard to conceive truth that's outside of their perception.

Ever debated a liberal on the topic of gun control and got emotional nonsense in return? Its not because they can't hear you. Its because we as people have preconceived notions and mold incoming information to fit it.This phenomenon is well known in psychiatric circles . We as people are wired to filter new information through our own biases. Thus, it takes real intellectual effort to look at a situation and honestly concede your previous conclusions were wrong.

We have two factors working against us: a legislative and financial machine which profits from gun control, and preconceived notions built on lies established and reinforced by deceptive politicians, deceptive laws, and deceptive media outlets over a period of decades.

Neither dilemma will be cured overnight, as their creation wasn't done in a day either. The more acceptance right to carry has, the harder and nastier the disarmament lobby-in all its forms-will fight. Our advantage is in the facts, and in converting people one person at a time. There's no media article or BS study which can counter the sheer joy of plinking with a .22LR downrange. To modify an Afghan saying, the Disarmament Lobby has the watches.....and we have the time.

The converting one person at a time part is exactly right. Most people who try our sport and passion enjoy it, and once they learn all the laws we have to deal with, they usually figure out that WE are not the problem, nor are the guns.

Everything is one person at a time.

ETA: that being said, many people put great weight on media stories (I do not, since I do media for a living), and they form opinions based on what they see or read. This is why the media needs to at least be fair, if they can't be pro rights (as they should be). A single phone call to a recognized expert on a topic can be the difference between a balanced story, and a total lazy hit piece.

And even THIS relates back to media. Newsroom staff employees simply have not been exposed to enough TRUTH to be even able to understand the civil rights basis for our rights, and this leads to reporters not knowing what they are talking about.

I would say that the media vs "one on one" concept of spreading truth, is symbiotic.

stix213
05-04-2012, 5:04 AM
Just thinking out loud... So Oaklander, seeing that the one person at a time thing is pretty on the money, maybe we should consider a strategy of convincing media members to come to our side in addition to combating bad reporting? For example, reaching out to reporters in a coordinated effort, and bringing them one at a time to the range. Doesn't need to be in response to any specific reporting. Not sure how the logistics of that would work, but getting reporters enlightened preemptively may help to prevent other reporters whom they work with from feeling free to make hit pieces on us.

BigDogatPlay
05-04-2012, 7:15 AM
Here's the problem with fighting propaganda with "truth":a lazy and appealing lie will be more attractive to 90% of the lay people than a hard to conceive truth that's outside of their perception.

But most will respond, at some point, to evidence which objectively refutes the lies. As example look at how the tide continues to turn against the feckless scam that is man made climate change.

Ever debated a liberal on the topic of gun control and got emotional nonsense in return?

I've debated hundreds of political leftists on line and face to face across a wide range of topics including civil rights. The political left tends to argue from emotion (think "It's for the children") and when countered with fact and patience they eventually go silent or just start throwing insults and rhetorical diversions to take the debate in a different direction. Why? Because even the truest believer understands when he or she cannot win because they come to understand that the facts don't bear out their belief.

Its not because they can't hear you. Its because we as people have preconceived notions and mold incoming information to fit it.This phenomenon is well known in psychiatric circles . We as people are wired to filter new information through our own biases. Thus, it takes real intellectual effort to look at a situation and honestly concede your previous conclusions were wrong.

And, as can be seen across the political spectrum in our modern, everything gets ten seconds of attention before we move on, world there is no room or time for intellectual effort by a growing majority of people. This is why the time honored tactic of the left, going back before Lenin, is to debate the issue emotionally.

We have two factors working against us: a legislative and financial machine which profits from gun control, and preconceived notions built on lies established and reinforced by deceptive politicians, deceptive laws, and deceptive media outlets over a period of decades.

Those preconceived notions did not exist, largely, before the 1960's. The onslaught of the modern left in this country (and around the world), and the cooperation of willing media partners with a vested interest in helping spread the lies, has put that mindset into the American consciousness.

And our mission is to alter that consciousness.... one mind at a time.

oaklander
05-04-2012, 10:06 AM
And our mission is to alter that consciousness.... one mind at a time.

This is wisdom. . .

It is really the only thing that works on any issue, as well. . .

I think we need to build bridges, and I support the idea of being nice to opposition, or at least patient. . . AND - showing them, by example, that WE are the good people and the right people, on this issue.

That is why I have been a pest about simply asking people to BE NICER. And I catch myself sometimes, not being as nice as I could be. But vitriol will not solve this. It solves nothing. . .

There is so much wisdom here.

oaklander
05-04-2012, 10:07 AM
Just thinking out loud... So Oaklander, seeing that the one person at a time thing is pretty on the money, maybe we should consider a strategy of convincing media members to come to our side in addition to combating bad reporting? For example, reaching out to reporters in a coordinated effort, and bringing them one at a time to the range. Doesn't need to be in response to any specific reporting. Not sure how the logistics of that would work, but getting reporters enlightened preemptively may help to prevent other reporters whom they work with from feeling free to make hit pieces on us.

ya, I think that this would not hurt, and again - the main thing is for people to just be what we are. Decent people who value rights.

I used to over complicate stuff, but seriously, the things we learn in kindergarten and sunday school about being nice, being upright, and stuff like that - WORK. People judge you by your character. No person wants to listen to a screaming idiot, and I know that from being a screaming idiot for much of my life.

ROFL

Don't do it. It sucks.

oaklander
05-05-2012, 1:08 AM
This is the passage that we have been talking about, and I need to emphasize that I am just outlining how some people feel about the type of evil that we face.

11*Put on the full armor of God,(A) so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12*For our struggle is not against flesh and blood,(B) but against the rulers, against the authorities,(C) against the powers(D) of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.(E) 13*Therefore put on the full armor of God,(F) so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14*Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist,(G) with the breastplate of righteousness in place,(H) 15*and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.(I) 16*In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith,(J) with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.(K) 17*Take the helmet of salvation(L) and the sword of the Spirit,(M) which is the word of God.(N)

This is EXACTLY how many of us feel here in Oakland, at least. And again, I am saying that as someone who now spends most of my time in East Oakland, in my community, trying to stop people from killing each other.

It is NOT all our fault.

Tonight I did something I rarely do these days, and had a few drinks. I now know so many people who have died from the dysfunction here. And it is the same thing we saw with this TV station, a kind of ignorant attitude, based on what appears to be hate and fear. Lies do cause death. I see it here, with hate that flies in all directions, and the only beacons of light that I see are the churches, and that is why I joined one. I know who has my back.

Stonewalker
05-05-2012, 1:45 AM
Churches have done a lot of harm in the world Kevin. I know you know this. The only way churches can truly affect their communities (any church in any community) is to fully submit to the holy spirit and ask God to teach them how to love. This is a simple formula and it requires no advanced degrees in theology, no $$$ and no building. All that's needed is some people who are willing. A person who was introduced to God yesterday can use this schema today to spread the good news again.

A church organization which spreads culture instead of God's authority will wind up being a force of hatred and war. God is above culture, God cares about the heart. I fully agree that churches can and should be what causes change in war torn communities, Oakland in particular. If only they can leave behind their own cultural rules and instead submit fully to God's authority and love. You can only spread one or the other, and unfortunately most church orgs seem more interested in keeping their cultural moors sacred than spreading God's true love. Anyways, I've seen God fix relationships in ways I never saw coming. God loves restoring relationships and I dearly hope to see gang crime/gang members introduced to God. The gang violence in America is as serious as genocides that happen in other countries... I don't know why we don't treat it with the same need/respect.

Anyways... kudos and keep on keepin on. What you are doing in Oakland matters.

oaklander
05-05-2012, 2:14 AM
Churches have done a lot of harm in the world Kevin. I know you know this. The only way churches can truly affect their communities (any church in any community) is to fully submit to the holy spirit and ask God to teach them how to love. This is a simple formula and it requires no advanced degrees in theology, no $$$ and no building. All that's needed is some people who are willing. A person who was introduced to God yesterday can use this schema today to spread the good news again.

A church organization which spreads culture instead of God's authority will wind up being a force of hatred and war. God is above culture, God cares about the heart. I fully agree that churches can and should be what causes change in war torn communities, Oakland in particular. If only they can leave behind their own cultural rules and instead submit fully to God's authority and love. You can only spread one or the other, and unfortunately most church orgs seem more interested in keeping their cultural moors sacred than spreading God's true love. Anyways, I've seen God fix relationships in ways I never saw coming. God loves restoring relationships and I dearly hope to see gang crime/gang members introduced to God. The gang violence in America is as serious as genocides that happen in other countries... I don't know why we don't treat it with the same need/respect.

Anyways... kudos and keep on keepin on. What you are doing in Oakland matters.

Thanks brother. I think that churches are like people, all are different. Mine has the same politics I have always had. I did not exoect that. Also, the way that I do a lot of things just on intuition. Well, that matches up with our teachings about the HG.

So many people of all faiths seem to lack faith that their own creator has power.

And that is logically false. If your creator MADE YOU, he (or she) can do anything. The other fallacy is that things are somehow "different" now. Human nature NEVER CHANGES. What was true about humans 3000 years ago is true right up to this second. We worship science, money, cars, TV, food, sex, movies, stars, aliens from Mars - yet we refuse to see the hand of our own Creator.

We have lost track, and I don't give a crap if I offend people. This is what I believe, and I have seen enough in my life to make rational choices now.

Again, I am just an old guy in front of a computer in East Oakland. But I get to see things that people do not see. The "oppression" that people read about in their polysci or history classes? That is the reality of life here.

Stonewalker
05-05-2012, 2:26 AM
Thanks brother. I think that churches are like people, all are different. Mine has the same politics I have always had. I did not exoect that. Also, the way that I do a lot of things just on intuition. Well, that matches up with our teachings about the HG.

So many people of all faiths seem to lack faith that their own creator has power.

And that is logically false. If your creator MADE YOU, he (or she) can do anything. The other fallacy is that things are somehow "different" now. Human nature NEVER CHANGES. What was true about humans 3000 years ago is true right up to this second. We worship science, money, cars, TV, food, sex, movies, stars, aliens from Mars - yet we refuse to see the hand of our own Creator.

We have lost track, and I don't give a crap if I offend people. This is what I believe, and I have seen enough in my life to make rational choices now.

Again, I am just an old guy in front of a computer in East Oakland. But I get to see things that people do not see. The "oppression" that people read about in their polysci or history classes? That is the reality of life here.

I'd love to talk more about this stuff, but I'm gonna point this thread back to the direction it was headed. Plenty of other places and times to discuss faith/God! But yea, my point was to back up your words on this fight being all about truth and justice. I love God, justice, liberty and equality - and I can tell you one thing - whether it comes from crazy religious groups or the poverty-pimp antigun groups, I can recognize hate when I see it, and I will not abide it. This is why I wish the NRA would drop the red-state image in their fundraising. We are already on the side of truth, we don't need to use tricks to target certain groups for money. This is what was so attractive to me about the Calguns Foundation. No political or cultural allegiances, just trying to right some very big, very old wrongs. Also zero hate.

RMikeL
05-05-2012, 2:23 PM
Probably the only effective counter to the BS from college campuses, religious leaders, local media outlets, internet wackos, political candidates, etc. is a population of even-tempered, informed people with a mature instinct for detecting BS and who understand that quick, easy answers to life's complexities are rare.

CBS5 laid it on heavy using manipulative language and images for their quick answer that people with bullet button equipped rifles are dangerous. Any open-minded person, even one who may be skeptical of the wisdom of the RKBA, should easily see that the bullet button story was BS, or at least wonder what the other side of the story has to say.

There are still a few places where unadulterated BS usually doesn't go far before getting shot down (like an appellate courtroom--see Heller and McDonald). Getting more people who aren't easily manipulated will only happen if parents talk to their kids every day training them to think for themselves, and discuss the importance of individual liberties in our system of government. Getting more people like this is probably up to parents.

Mike

Oh, and never talk to the effin media!

oaklander
05-05-2012, 5:27 PM
Probably the only effective counter to the BS from college campuses, religious leaders, local media outlets, internet wackos, political candidates, etc. is a population of even-tempered, informed people with a mature instinct for detecting BS and who understand that quick, easy answers to life's complexities are rare.

CBS5 laid it on heavy using manipulative language and images for their quick answer that people with bullet button equipped rifles are dangerous. Any open-minded person, even one who may be skeptical of the wisdom of the RKBA, should easily see that the bullet button story was BS, or at least wonder what the other side of the story has to say.

There are still a few places where unadulterated BS usually doesn't go far before getting shot down (like an appellate courtroom--see Heller and McDonald). Getting more people who aren't easily manipulated will only happen if parents talk to their kids every day training them to think for themselves, and discuss the importance of individual liberties in our system of government. Getting more people like this is probably up to parents.

Mike

Oh, and never talk to the effin media!

Yes!!!!

oaklander
05-05-2012, 11:59 PM
I'd love to talk more about this stuff, but I'm gonna point this thread back to the direction it was headed. Plenty of other places and times to discuss faith/God! But yea, my point was to back up your words on this fight being all about truth and justice. I love God, justice, liberty and equality - and I can tell you one thing - whether it comes from crazy religious groups or the poverty-pimp antigun groups, I can recognize hate when I see it, and I will not abide it. This is why I wish the NRA would drop the red-state image in their fundraising. We are already on the side of truth, we don't need to use tricks to target certain groups for money. This is what was so attractive to me about the Calguns Foundation. No political or cultural allegiances, just trying to right some very big, very old wrongs. Also zero hate.

Realistically, the NRA is very good at what it does. I think where the dramas REALLY come in are around strategic choices, but I am not actually smart enough to understand some of them. I can say that I am an EPL Life Member, and I fully support the NRA.

Amd some of this stuff is soooo complicated, and so tied in with various things happening on state, federal, and even international levels, that I just don't want to overthink things. I just focus on being an ambassador for our movement. And since most of us ARE actually just normal people, I actually think that we are getting a lot of positive movement now PRECISELY because of things like the M/C's (Members Clubs).

ROFL, and that is how our church spreads the message, as well. (Just had to add that).

;-)

The general point is that we literally just kind of spread the word, and it is sooooo much easier when the press is accurate. And since CA typically has very political press (going back to Hearst days), we just try to not interact with them.

My viewpoints are different than some, and is because I am involved in the issue so heavily. That being said, there is a great push to move all of our organizations to a more centrist position.

There is a real sense that this country is TOO POLARIZED right now. And that worries people, like me.

Chaparral
05-06-2012, 10:38 AM
. The other fallacy is that things are somehow "different" now. Human nature NEVER CHANGES. What was true about humans 3000 years ago is true right up to this second.


Not to hijack this excellent thread but some reading you might find useful would be Martha Stouts "The Psychopath Next Door", "On Killing" by Col Dave Grossman, "Political Ponerology" by Andrew Lobasczewski (spelling?) and Robert Hare's books on psychopathy might help crystallize a few things on human nature for everybody. "Political Ponerology" is especially overdue for attention in the current times.

oaklander
05-07-2012, 7:14 AM
Not to hijack this excellent thread but some reading you might find useful would be Martha Stouts "The Psychopath Next Door", "On Killing" by Col Dave Grossman, "Political Ponerology" by Andrew Lobasczewski (spelling?) and Robert Hare's books on psychopathy might help crystallize a few things on human nature for everybody. "Political Ponerology" is especially overdue for attention in the current times.

Yes, I have actually read the Grossman book, and he will be out here to do some training next month. Me and some friends plan to go.

I am familiar with the Stout book as well.

I do not disagree that there are some very bad actors involved in politics. As a person of faith, I hold hope that people can be edified, but until they see the light, we fight them in the media, and the courts.

The book you also reference is this one:

http://ponerology.com/evil_2b.html

"Gangs have always provided great opportunities for young psychopaths. Their impulsive, selfish, callous, egocentric, and aggressive tendencies easily blend in with - and may even se the tone for - many of the gang's activities. Indeed, there cannot be many other activities that produce so many rewards for violent psychopaths, with such impunity." (Hare, 176)

But, that is actually somewhat simplistic. The book apparent reads as a critique of philosophy, yet makes broad statements that have little basis in fact. For example, street gangs are no different than any clubs. It is just that as they gain more political power, they become more legitimate. And in many cases, the line between civic club, and "gang" is not always clear:

“As a social unit, the gang closely resembled such organizations as the fire company, the fraternal order [of police], and the political club, all of these formations variously overlapped” (Sante, 1991, pp. 197–198). [emphasis added]

See: http://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Content/Documents/History-of-Street-Gangs.pdf

I don't think that there is any magic solution, or world-view that will fix things. It's always been the same issue with oppression and repression for the last 3000 years. People use different words to describe the same dynamic (a powerful group controlling a weaker group). AND, "framing" the weaker group as "evil" is exactly how it is done. And this is done via media. . .

NoJoke
05-07-2012, 7:20 AM
it is a symbiosis of power.

Actually, I believe it's called exponential growth. If you talk to 5 people and those 5 people each talk to 5 people, in very short order the whole area has received the message.

Carry on! :D

paul0660
05-07-2012, 7:23 AM
The general rule is to not talk to media.

But blabbing on the web is ok?

Me and some friends plan to go.

Unless you are trying to appeal to illiterate constituency, that sentence is a fail.

I am not paranoid enough to think that Oaklander is an anti plant. The other possibilities are obvious.

I just hope no one hitches their wagon to his horse.

oaklander
05-07-2012, 9:08 PM
But blabbing on the web is ok?



Unless you are trying to appeal to illiterate constituency, that sentence is a fail.

I am not paranoid enough to think that Oaklander is an anti plant. The other possibilities are obvious.

I just hope no one hitches their wagon to his horse.

No, you are right. I do talk to much.

SanPedroShooter
05-08-2012, 9:14 AM
I would love to hear what the 'other possibilities' are?

The only thing I could think of was maybe some kind of 'in it for the money' (lol) scheme.

He did sell me a ten dollar T shirt once... Shameless;)

oaklander
05-08-2012, 9:26 AM
I would love to hear what the 'other possibilities' are?

The only thing I could think of was maybe some kind of 'in it for the money' (lol) scheme.

He did sell me a ten dollar T shirt once... Shameless;)

LOL

yes. . .

paul0660
05-08-2012, 1:12 PM
Pauline/Paul/Paula - what do you think?

Sorry to not respond earlier.

I would love a well voiced 2A advocate to be part of the Oakland political scene. You are not that.

I think that you are hypocritical when you doubt the truthfullness of the media and still have silly conversations with anti's, in the middle of the night, and repost them. A good argument well made is worth a hundred times more narcissistic drivel. That is my take on what has happened. Some will disagree.

Your certs in post #42 are unfortunately laughable. Equally laughable is your take on me. Neither matters, and hopefully your attempt to become elected, or paid for your opinion, will be laughable, eventually, too. I will do my best to not participate in your threads.

paul0660
05-08-2012, 1:18 PM
2000 hours per year gratis means you are under employed, unless you are counting that late night web time.

$350 an hour is good pay. Some might not be aware of the differences between, billing, getting paid, and worth. Not to mention da trooooth.

I will do my best to not participate in your threads.

starting...........NOW.

oaklander
05-08-2012, 2:07 PM
Sorry to not respond earlier.

I would love a well voiced 2A advocate to be part of the Oakland political scene. You are not that.

I think that you are hypocritical when you doubt the truthfullness of the media and still have silly conversations with anti's, in the middle of the night, and repost them. A good argument well made is worth a hundred times more narcissistic drivel. That is my take on what has happened. Some will disagree.

Your certs in post #42 are unfortunately laughable. Equally laughable is your take on me. Neither matters, and hopefully your attempt to become elected, or paid for your opinion, will be laughable, eventually, too. I will do my best to not participate in your threads.

Such anger. . . I will make one tiny observation, and then will drop "you" as a thing that I even care about. Your substantive statements mean nothing. What interests me is the vitriol, and what it represents.

It took me a while, and I actually was able figure out why you are so interesting to me. .

Folks, Paul reminds me of "Agent Green" - a fading demographic (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8459883&postcount=59). These are people who simply DO NOT like the concept of universal rights. . . They inhabit parts of our own government (such as the BOF), and parts of our own movement, and kind of work behind the scenes to screw up a lot of things that our coalition is doing. I would bet $100 that Paulosi is connected to anti-rights groups out where he lives (and, based on some intel, in Oakland). I would also bet that he DOES NOT support universal rights for all Americans, regardless of what they look like.

Go review his post history, and look for things that reference minorities, gangs, crime, immigration, the Bay Area, and stuff like that. Just do it. I don't even need to, since I have already done it. People like Paulosi would be happy if the entire world looked like the inside of an Ikea store. But the problem is that it does not. The world is not all perfect and brightly lit, with arrows telling you what to do. The reality is that laws actually do little to control people. And our country is changing into a better place. And the way we do it is NOT by increasing laws. We do it by increasing FAIRNESS AND AWARENESS. And we do it by pointing out who our opposition REALLY is. And like I have said, it is often within our own ranks.

I saw this exact dynamic within the 4 letter org that I resigned from.

BUT, truth is self-proving, and lies eventually fade out, from their own weight. . .

The typical pattern for people like "Paul" is that they will simply try to cast doubt on things. But in my case, there's simply nothing to cast doubt upon. People who know me know that I am sincere, and that I do not make money from this rights work. In fact, there is a LOT of real, personal risk, in the anti-violence work I do here in Oakland.

Paul, why don't you come join me at church, and I will introduce you to people who are harmed by your thinking? It is an open invitation. Better yet, come with me downtown in a few weeks, when we will be meeting with ALL of our "city" folks, as part of the anti-violence stuff we are doing here (which really has nothing to do with guns). Maybe you would like to co-author the paper I am writing on this topic for the ABA? Or maybe you want to come to the alumni event that I am doing for my law school? Perhaps you can join me at our local neighborhood meetings, here in Deep East Oakland?

Maybe if you walked a mile in my shoes, you might come to see things differently.

But I think not. Again, your hate is a plank in your own eyes, and I might have a mote in my eye, since I KNOW I am not perfect. But you need to remove your plank, to see truth.

And I apologize if I seem harsh. But you, and people like you - ARE the reason we even have to do this work. And like I said, I do not do it perfectly, but I have a solid track record of generally doing things that benefit people. And not just on the gun stuff. I have been an activist since before many of you were born. . .

AND - what have you, personally, done, on this (or any other) issue?

RyanDBurkhart
05-08-2012, 5:04 PM
starting...........NOW.

Pretty sure... no, wait, let me check...

Yeah, Oaklander started this thread. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8507620&postcount=1) Which means that arguably this isn't even your thread.

Kevin may not be the most eloquent of people, but he has his heart and his mind in the right place; I can safely say that is his word matters more to me than yours does.

"But he's not well spoken and makes both spelling and grammatical errors!"

He's done more work for Oakland than you have, since he lives there, sees what happens, and talks with the local community leaders. Yes, even City Hall, the Police Chief, everyone. He's on the ground. Where are you in Oakland to criticize him? Whenever I go to Oakland (the industrial district), everything Kevin has said has so far correlated with my experiences.

Ad Hominem attacks of character are childish and the mark of a poor debater, Paul.

On topic, the best way to beat someone in a debate is to shoot holes in their arguments with the whole nine yards of truth backed by meticulously sourced and cited facts. You have to hammer them home with reality and all the painful statistics that come with it to defeat their emotion-based defenses.

And then after rubbing their faces in it, you pick them up, dust them off, and shake their hand. Parading such victories is dishonorable and will NOT win you any converts.

choprzrul
05-08-2012, 7:02 PM
Oak fights for civil rights. Those that choose to fight against him are fighting against what he fights for, ergo, they fight AGAINST civil rights.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

.

oaklander
05-09-2012, 9:34 AM
Thanks everyone for the support. I think it is hard for people who do not know me and my friends to understand how deeply I am involved in the issues here in Oakland.

I get to see and touch how bad laws hurt people, and now I have kind of branched out into other public policy things that have nothing to do with guns at all. But they STILL have to do with civil rights. And I need to reveal that I have always been what I would call a bleeding heart conservative. The 2A stuff is just kind of a progression. I wrote my entrance essay to Hastings on Malcolm X, and that was in 1991. In the 1980's I was mentoring at-risk youth in South Central when I was in undergrad. I was also active in law school, and after law school.

I went through a rough period in 2002-2007, and since then, I just kind of figured that I will do "this" kind of stuff, and not the "get rich" stuff.

That is about the easiest way to explain it.

I know I am not perfect, and I make MANY mistakes. But since I do MANY things, and some of those actually "work," I do actually get to make progress on issues. But never alone!!! AND - I do not actually "do" anything, I just help people understand things, I guess is the way to describe it. And it is because I just have seen so many things, personally.

Right now I am sitting behind a computer here in East Oakland, and we have bills piled to the roof. I *could* have monetized this a long time ago, and started some sort of new group or something. But I did not.

The reason is that it won't actually help anything, and it has never been about money or fame. As my friend Chau - I work to STAY OUT of press. I hate press, and the last time I was in a local media story was about 2 years ago, and even then, I was reluctant.

It is NOT about money, or me, or anything like that. Ask anyone who knows me and who has seen how I live.

And I agree with the previous comments. I have feelings too, and I DO work for free on this stuff. That someone who does not even know me would intentionally try to spread lies, or put my motives under question is not just wrong, it is morally wrong.

I do not get stuff done if people do not trust me, and I have the passwords to my entire day job law firm's network. I am privy to confidential things involving multi-million dollar cases. People tell me things that if they were ever to get out, they would ruin entire careers.

That is why I tell people that if they do not believe my words, just come hang out with me for a day, and they can SEE what I talk about.

This ENTIRE THREAD is about TRUTH.

And I can literally SHOW PEOPLE TRUTH. Right here in Oakland.

I can literally show people how bad laws and policies, and a disinterested government, combined with a profiteering media, DOES and CAN screw honest and hard working people.

And as someone who DOES believe in an all powerful God, I can also show people how simply living better, and having better morals, or at least not intentionally hurting others, can and does make things better for people.

This is all I ask for.

And about the spelling and grammar stuff. We noticed that on the Violence Policy Center page. When our own opposition could not argue with our point, they started pointed out that we had problems with spelling and grammar.

Folks, I spent part of my elementary school years in a trailer park, and have only gone to public schools. The fact that I was also able to actually have a writing career, and write a bunch of nationally-published articles (http://www.calgunlawyers.com/staff/kevin-thomason-affiliate-counsel/) IS actually a miracle. My message is simple, if we work hard, and work for good - and literally REBUKE evil - we will win the media wars.

And I think that advice applies to many other things as well. . .