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View Full Version : The Myths of Self Defense Firearm Modification


scarville
04-30-2012, 9:36 PM
I found this on the Personal Defense Network (http://video.personaldefensenetwork.com/video/The-Myths-of-Self-Defense-Firea)

ircySweWu44

It sounds good but I don't know what case law he is referring to.

1911su16b870
04-30-2012, 10:19 PM
So don't lighten the trigger, ok to fit the gun to your hand, good sights, laser is the videos message.

I personally like the idea of buying a gun that fits your hand, has good sights, lots of ammo, range time, training, and a flash light.

hyperion.excal
05-01-2012, 1:45 AM
My HD had work done by Sig. AEP, SRT, polished feedramp, custom grip and mounted light

kelley_aj
05-01-2012, 11:35 AM
Each county will dictate more as to what can and can not be modified on your CCW weapon. Sac county has some specific rules in regards to modifications. I think that would be more of a concern than case law. That is unless you have to use the weapon then case law becomes paramount ; )

speedrrracer
05-01-2012, 1:28 PM
In my ignorant opinion, this seems an area where the law needs some maturation and commons sense. I suppose that makes it like most laws.

If it's a legal modification, it shouldn't be an issue in court -- period. This includes trigger jobs.

I don't care if you have a 1.75 pound trigger, I care if the shoot was justified. Light triggers make sense, or else competitors wouldn't use them. If someone can tell me how miles of pre-travel, spongy takeup, and ridiculous re-sets make a gun safer or a shoot more or less justified I am all ears.

So why is everyone afraid of a trigger job on a SD weapon? It seems to me it's because (justifiably or not, I don't know) there's this common myth / belief / truth that some ADA will get a jury to convict you because you had a "hair" trigger.

"But he smashed through my window, killed my wife and child, and was coming after me with a flamethrower. My light trigger meant I broke the shot exactly when I wanted, before my sights could drift and reducing the amount of trigger-pull-movement imparted to the gun, so I hit exactly where I wanted to hit, ending the threat!"

"Too bad -- you're guilty of murder because your trigger was lightened"

Seriously? Where's the sense in that? Do they throw an extra 10 years onto vehicular manslaughter if you have dubs?

I'm going to pose this question to some ADA friends in a coupla weeks (after a coupla bottles of wine).

blakdawg
05-01-2012, 1:53 PM
I see two angles here - one being that modifications to the gun in general (and training, and participation in internet forums, etc) might suggest a predisposition to gun use or even an eagerness to be involved in a shooting. It's not to hard to look around and find some internet tough guy who's posting about how he's ready to take out some bad guys and he's just waiting for his chance.

The other angle is that modifications to the gun might suggest that shot(s) were fired unintentionally - e.g., as the result of negligence (either in gun handling or gun modification). This isn't so much a criminal problem as it is a civil problem - many policies explicitly don't provide coverage for intentional acts, so if you decide to shoot a bad guy and hit a good guy, or the bad guy turns out to not be so bad, it's possible your insurance carrier won't be on the hook to pay for sexy nurses to give the dude sponge baths 3x daily for the next 60 years. On the other hand, if the plaintiff can make the case that you didn't really mean to shoot, but the evil gun fired accidentally/negligently, well, then your insurance is on the hook after all, and it's a lot more fun to get a > $1M judgment when there's an insurance company in the background who might actually write a check. Sometimes defendants are happy to go along with the "accident" theory, especially if it means their insurance company has to pay, or if they're faced with the sobbing/angry family and friends of the, uh, misguided yoot who was in the wrong place at the wrong time with other people's stuff in his backpack.

InGrAM
05-01-2012, 2:31 PM
Each county will dictate more as to what can and can not be modified on your CCW weapon. Sac county has some specific rules in regards to modifications. I think that would be more of a concern than case law. That is unless you have to use the weapon then case law becomes paramount ; )

Link? I have never heard of sac county having any rules in regards to modified CC firearms.

Shenaniguns
05-01-2012, 2:31 PM
Each county will dictate more as to what can and can not be modified on your CCW weapon. Sac county has some specific rules in regards to modifications. I think that would be more of a concern than case law. That is unless you have to use the weapon then case law becomes paramount ; )


Sac County does not, that's El Dorado.

SilverTauron
05-01-2012, 2:47 PM
The "Hair Trigger" court bugaboo is part of why law enforcement agencies have gone to DAO designs like the Glock and other types. Without a hammer available to cock in single action, no risk of some criminal's family winning a suit against the city for wrongful death.

As far as the citizen goes, this is a situation that's a "local factor". Up here in flyover country I doubt ill need to go to trial in the event of a home defense shooting incident. In Illinois where the rest of my family lives, you'd better believe the homeowner's going to court to explain the dead "honor student" dressed in black with a gun in their hand. The legal system is less about the truth and more about which version of events the attorneys can sell to a jury.

Speaking of the jury, I wouldn't be so sure the nature of a self defense shooting would be clear to them. Just like we train to face a gunfighter skilled in their criminal acts, we should be prepared to explain our actions of self defense to 12 very stupid people who know absolutely nothing about arms. If our jury was a group of 12 guys who shot IDPA explaining the benefits of an accurate single action trigger for accuracy won't be needed. What's more likely to happen is we'll get 12 Democrats who think an "assault weapon" is anything that looks like Sylvester Stallone shot it. To the gun ignorant sheeple a 12 lb long trigger pull sounds extremely safe-it makes the gun harder to shoot , right?

When your fate is in the hands of ignorant people, you must do as the Romans do . :(

Splash One
05-01-2012, 2:50 PM
In my ignorant opinion, this seems an area where the law needs some maturation and commons sense. I suppose that makes it like most laws.

If it's a legal modification, it shouldn't be an issue in court -- period. This includes trigger jobs.

I don't care if you have a 1.75 pound trigger, I care if the shoot was justified. Light triggers make sense, or else competitors wouldn't use them. If someone can tell me how miles of pre-travel, spongy takeup, and ridiculous re-sets make a gun safer or a shoot more or less justified I am all ears.

So why is everyone afraid of a trigger job on a SD weapon? It seems to me it's because (justifiably or not, I don't know) there's this common myth / belief / truth that some ADA will get a jury to convict you because you had a "hair" trigger.

"But he smashed through my window, killed my wife and child, and was coming after me with a flamethrower. My light trigger meant I broke the shot exactly when I wanted, before my sights could drift and reducing the amount of trigger-pull-movement imparted to the gun, so I hit exactly where I wanted to hit, ending the threat!"

"Too bad -- you're guilty of murder because your trigger was lightened"

Seriously? Where's the sense in that? Do they throw an extra 10 years onto vehicular manslaughter if you have dubs?

I'm going to pose this question to some ADA friends in a coupla weeks (after a coupla bottles of wine).

It's not really about sense, it's about what the other side can argue. Things I've read say they can say you lightened the trigger pull to make killing/maiming easier. In the dubs analogy it would be as if your dubs also had kneecappers and/or razorblade spinners. The opposition will use anything and everything to say you're crazy/psychopathic/antisocial/sociopathic, even if it has nothing to do with guns.

Since I only have one firearm at the moment, the remote chance I'd forced to to defend myself with it sees me doing very little in terms of modifications. Sights and a tactical light/laser are about the only things my glock will see.

tbhracing
05-01-2012, 3:06 PM
Tagged

NewbieDave
05-01-2012, 9:44 PM
The "Hair Trigger" court bugaboo is part of why law enforcement agencies have gone to DAO designs like the Glock and other types. Without a hammer available to cock in single action, no risk of some criminal's family winning a suit against the city for wrongful death.

I completely disagree with the above statement... first of all,a standard Glock trigger is a striker fire design which is actually lighter then a standard DAO trigger like a Sig, Beretta or SW. I have never seen LEO train their officers to pull their weapon, cock the hammer and be ready to go... never happens.

Only reason that *real* DAO pistol was the rage back in the 90s was because of training needs... most of these department that wanted DAO semi also had revolver being issued. So keeping a DAO trigger training across the board was easier.

Glocks, M&P, and all the new polymer wonder pistols are the rage currently because they are first... undercutting everyone else by selling to LEO on the cheap side. If the bean counter can get 2x Glocks for the price of 1x Sig... they will always try to get more for the money. Another side is that they are easy to use and train. Most LEO don't shoot enough as it is... for the same amount of training time, its easier to train them on a striker-fire pistol then one that has a hammer, decocker, etc.... like a Sig/Beretta/etc.

Hell... a lot of smaller departments just leave it up to the officer to pick their own from all the major manufactures (Glock, SW, Sig, Beretta, etc)... no Hi-Points. LOL. If you look around at most of the bigger agencies in CA... still lots of DAO/SA guns out their. Shoot... half of CHP is still using their older SW4006. And last time I checked... a lot of LAPD is still using 92FS.

Just my opinion.

Jack L
05-02-2012, 9:11 AM
In my mind, in a SD scenario, I can only assume a 4 - 6 pound trigger pull will feel like it's a 2 pound trigger one would be so jacked with adrenalin. In my experience in the field, the fright or flight reflex allows a human to accomplish unbelievable tasks regarding strength and a 4 - 6 pound trigger pull seems like a non issue for me. If you train with a stock trigger you can compensate just fine for SD. For target competition that's another game altogether. I keep my SD CCW pistols and revolver simple without added sights, etc. After all you will be using it at 15 yards or less realistically. If you shoot beyond that it would be very rare and no doubt DA or civil trial in your future. I practice at 25 yards with static paper targets and 25 – 50 yards with squirrels this time of year for moving small targets. I did add a tactical light on my .45 bedside weapon. Will I be prosecuted for that? seems like common sense to me.

Lead Waster
05-02-2012, 10:25 AM
LEO's are a different animal than the average homeowner. During the course of their job, they may have to point their guns at people they suspect as being dangerous. Are their fingers on or off the trigger when they do it? I don't know.

As a homeowner, if you have a heavy 9 lb DA pistol, or a super IPSC open race gun with a 1/2 pound trigger pull, the proper thing to say to the jury is "I shot him because he was in my home threatening my family". Not "Oh, I was just pointing the gun in warning and the gun went off!". Did you shoot the guy? Yes. Why? Because he broke into my house and my job is to protect my family. He threatened us, I shot him. There is no question my intent was to shoot him.


Now what I want to know is, as the homeowner, are you required to "give him a chance to leave?" You certainly have run out of places to retreat to. I mean seriously, you are in your own house. If you have a duty to retreat are you supposed to run away and leave your 3 year old in her bed while you retreat out of your house? So if you can't retreat and the BG is approaching you. Do you need to say "I've got a gun, GTFO out my house?" or can you just shoot him because his intent was pretty clear to you.

There are no drugs, piles of cash or Faberge eggs in my house. If someone breaks in, the only thing in there that I value is my family and so I'd assume that's what he's after.

kelley_aj
05-02-2012, 10:32 AM
Link? I have never heard of sac county having any rules in regards to modified CC firearms.

My CCW instructor wanted the wapons listed not to have any modification. Although weapons with laser sights installed at the manufacture where being allowed. I do not know if there is a link or not, but he gets his instructions from the county. I would not really worry in court if my weapon was modified, but I would worry about losing my LTC because the sherriff said not to.

Squid
05-02-2012, 10:46 AM
"goes off" you will get some support for the manufacturer that it went off because the BG was involved, because they have an interest in painting their guns as safe when used even by amateurs in stressful situations.

If you mod their factory trigger after they 'do not recommend' it, any discharge that wings a bystander is going to be 110% on you, and the BG lawyer can easily get some jury to think it went off when it otherwise wouldn't because of your bubba gun smithing.

In fact, the "Factory Rep" will say as much and become a great witness for the BG.

The trial could start with him as clearly the BG, but when the Factory Rep gets done saying you SHOULD NOT HAVE messed with the TRIGGER....

he will have been the ONLY '3rd party' expert on the incident.

Gryff
05-02-2012, 11:05 AM
So why is everyone afraid of a trigger job on a SD weapon? It seems to me it's because (justifiably or not, I don't know) there's this common myth / belief / truth that some ADA will get a jury to convict you because you had a "hair" trigger.

It's not the criminal trial so much as the civil trial. If the attorney can convince the jury that the shooting was at all negligent or accidental, you can be on the hook for a civil judgment against you. Remember that OJ showed us that you can be criminally not guilty, but civilly guilty.

nocomply25
05-02-2012, 11:16 AM
Just do not shoot a guy in the back...just make sure you mean to shoot the guy. Tell them you felt your life was in danger so you took a shot. In that situation there might be only one side to the story anyway so...I doubt your trigger job will come into question, unless you are not sure about the shooting yourself.

MyOdessa
05-02-2012, 11:23 AM
It is highly unlikely that LEA/DA office will ever test trigger pull on a gun, they have other issues to solve when building a case.

Eddie916
05-02-2012, 11:25 AM
This is dumb... If I have to finally get to the point of drawing my weapon a lightened trigger pull isn't going to matter.... thats like saying because I'm a member of the NRA I'm more likely to actually use my weapon... It's crap evidence.... the thing about it is the JURY that hears " oh well he modified the weapon to make if more effenicent" It wont matter in court.

GMANtt
05-02-2012, 11:28 AM
What about a compensator?

KandyRedCoi
05-02-2012, 11:28 AM
triggers: how light is ultra-light? i absolutely HATE heavy triggers...but how light is too light for the cour of law????

V
05-02-2012, 11:35 AM
Did anyone see the fox news 11 on Zimmerman last night.... I was channel hopping... some bimbo legal analyst talking about the reuters reporters comments on why Zimmerman had a gun -- paraphrased "he got it for problems with a dog on the advice of animal control, got CCW training, got CCW and guns."

The bimbo then starts off on "but now he has to stick with the dog story, he can't use anything as his reason for carrying but the dogs" and then veered off onto how he had it "loaded with terrible hollow point bullets which are only designed to be leathal and kill things...." (again I paraphrase - any one have a link/video)

My point is you will be attacked not just by the criminal and civil lawyers but also in the court of public opinion.... Here he is following the usual legal advice, carry and shoot the same ammo as your local PD - for the same reasons -- and yet he's being portrayed as some nut killer who uses dum dums....

Which ever way you go, if they are out to get you it will be portrayed negatively.

-hanko
05-02-2012, 11:40 AM
I don't care if you have a 1.75 pound trigger, I care if the shoot was justified. Light triggers make sense, or else competitors wouldn't use them. If someone can tell me how miles of pre-travel, spongy takeup, and ridiculous re-sets make a gun safer or a shoot more or less justified I am all ears.

So why is everyone afraid of a trigger job on a SD weapon? It seems to me it's because (justifiably or not, I don't know) there's this common myth / belief / truth that some ADA will get a jury to convict you because you had a "hair" trigger.

Seriously? Where's the sense in that? Do they throw an extra 10 years onto vehicular manslaughter if you have dubs?

I'm going to pose this question to some ADA friends in a coupla weeks (after a coupla bottles of wine).
For years I've wished the people who post this stuff would cite a case...SD/HD shootings abound, I still haven't seen nor found a case where the shooter was prosecuted and gun modifications were introduced in evidence in criminal or civil court.

About time for those posters to stfu/gtfo...Once I can see precedent I'll gladly do the same...;)


It's not really about sense, it's about what the other side can argue. Things I've read say they can say you lightened the trigger pull to make killing/maiming easier. In the dubs analogy it would be as if your dubs also had kneecappers and/or razorblade spinners. The opposition will use anything and everything to say you're crazy/psychopathic/antisocial/sociopathic, even if it has nothing to do with guns.

Since I only have one firearm at the moment, the remote chance I'd forced to to defend myself with it sees me doing very little in terms of modifications. Sights and a tactical light/laser are about the only things my glock will see.
If the other side could argue that the gun was modified to "make killing/maiming easier, what that's to do with your feeling yourself in threat of death or great physical harm. C'mon...they could argue just as effectively that polar bears in the swimming pool were to blame.


As a homeowner, if you have a heavy 9 lb DA pistol, or a super IPSC open race gun with a 1/2 pound trigger pull, the proper thing to say to the jury is "I shot him because he was in my home threatening my family". Not "Oh, I was just pointing the gun in warning and the gun went off!". Did you shoot the guy? Yes. Why? Because he broke into my house and my job is to protect my family. He threatened us, I shot him. There is no question my intent was to shoot him.

Now what I want to know is, as the homeowner, are you required to "give him a chance to leave?" You certainly have run out of places to retreat to. I mean seriously, you are in your own house. If you have a duty to retreat are you supposed to run away and leave your 3 year old in her bed while you retreat out of your house? So if you can't retreat and the BG is approaching you. Do you need to say "I've got a gun, GTFO out my house?" or can you just shoot him because his intent was pretty clear to you.
Two things...you don't say anything to the jury (assuming you're in court which no one can post past examples of, yet) that hasn't been pre-discussed with your attorney.

You have no duty to retreat IF you feel close to death or grave physical danger to yourself or someone else.


It's not the criminal trial so much as the civil trial. If the attorney can convince the jury that the shooting was at all negligent or accidental, you can be on the hook for a civil judgment against you. Remember that OJ showed us that you can be criminally not guilty, but civilly guilty.
Got a cite??

Post it or continue the fud.:TFH:


Just do not shoot a guy in the back...just make sure you mean to shoot the guy. Tell them you felt your life was in danger so you took a shot. In that situation there might be only one side to the story anyway so...I doubt your trigger job will come into question, unless you are not sure about the shooting yourself.
Not difficult to determine if your life was in danger, I think.

-hanko

KandyRedCoi
05-02-2012, 11:52 AM
this entire trigger job scenario has been played over and over...if it was me and it was MY life on the line, i dont think i would give a d@mn what trigger job my gun has...my life is in danger and the intruder/perp is going down...period

u can play out all these scenarios in your head or on the internet playing as lega advice or council...bottom line is you need to preserve your life and your loved ones...thats something that has NO room for debate

Gryff
05-02-2012, 12:33 PM
Got a cite??

Post it or continue the fud.:TFH:

Pretty well known. You should Google things before you foolishly start throwing out the FUD insult.

People of the State of California v. Orenthal James Simpson
Louis H. Brown V. Orenthal James Simpson

sharxbyte
05-02-2012, 12:38 PM
Another thing I've always wondered about, is whether it's a good thing to fill them with lead, or take one clean shot... Obviously one could do the job, but in that kind of adrenaline rush/panic mode, someone might just as easily fire until he stops twitching.

nocomply25
05-02-2012, 1:27 PM
Did anyone see the fox news 11 on Zimmerman last night.... I was channel hopping... some bimbo legal analyst talking about the reuters reporters comments on why Zimmerman had a gun -- paraphrased "he got it for problems with a dog on the advice of animal control, got CCW training, got CCW and guns."

The bimbo then starts off on "but now he has to stick with the dog story, he can't use anything as his reason for carrying but the dogs" and then veered off onto how he had it "loaded with terrible hollow point bullets which are only designed to be leathal and kill things...." (again I paraphrase - any one have a link/video)

My point is you will be attacked not just by the criminal and civil lawyers but also in the court of public opinion.... Here he is following the usual legal advice, carry and shoot the same ammo as your local PD - for the same reasons -- and yet he's being portrayed as some nut killer who uses dum dums....

Which ever way you go, if they are out to get you it will be portrayed negatively.


Ya but he is an idiot who is really going to make it look even worse for us gun owners....

tal3nt
05-02-2012, 1:53 PM
GZ should have handled it the old fashion way. Shooting him was too far. And all the legal courtroom mumbojumbo aside, unless you're some professional competition shooter, just get used to and master your gun's factory trigger. It takes a lot more skill and is actually more fun than simply modifying but not necessarily improving the trigger to be easy to shoot.

Lead Waster
05-02-2012, 2:07 PM
What if you have a single gun, it's your racy open class super light gun that you use to shoot in competitions. Then some BG breaks in and you grab what you have...that one gun. How is that different from grabbing your kitchen knife or your kid's baseball bat, or your Big Bertha driver?

I'm no law talking guy. Bottom line for me is that if someone hammers through my door, I'll throw chairs, cups, kid's toys, whatever at them. If I have a gun handy, then so be it. If I have a replicat Bat-leth (Klingon sword thingy) I'll use that too.
I'm in my house and I'm defending it. This is, of course much different from Zimmerman.

stix213
05-02-2012, 2:14 PM
I've yet to see any specific example where a lightened trigger was the difference between guilty and innocent. I've asked for examples in several threads, and all I ever get is links to some people's personal opinions, and links to some incidents where an ND occurred with a gun with a lightened trigger (not even close to the same thing).

Until I see otherwise I'm calling FUD on trigger mods being a problem. Anyone who is advocating this should be able to cite examples, or you're just being a FUD spreader.

tal3nt
05-02-2012, 2:15 PM
Although I find it difficult to believe that anyone with such a nice gun would only own that one, I agree that it probably isn't going to be a big deal.

-hanko
05-02-2012, 3:07 PM
Pretty well known. You should Google things before you foolishly start throwing out the FUD insult.

People of the State of California v. Orenthal James Simpson
Louis H. Brown V. Orenthal James Simpson
:confused: :rolleyes:

I thought the post involved civil or criminal prosecution involving a modified weapon.

No one here's said there haven't been differences between criminal guilt and civil guilt.

I asked, as did a couple of others, for a cite relating to a sd/hd shooting using a modified weapon.

You might try here, and thanks for your post...http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-guns/132995-modified-weapons-civil-criminal-defense-6.html

Gryff, you and I have both been here long enough to see many threads asking the same question...I have yet to see an answer that can point to an actual trial, criminal or civil.

-hanko

AAShooter
05-02-2012, 3:30 PM
There are two issues here. If you are involved in a defensive shooting where you intended to shoot, you will be scrutinized but the equipment is less of an issue if it is reasonable.

If you have an unintended shooting, whether it be as part of a defensive situation or not, then you and your equipment will/might be scrutinized. For example, you "accidentally" shoot someone while holding someone at gun point.

NewbieDave
05-02-2012, 3:47 PM
Well, all this is just talk... the old saying hold truth, "Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6."

AAShooter
05-02-2012, 4:23 PM
Well, all this is just talk... "

That is the purpose of discussion forums. ;):D

Lead Waster
05-02-2012, 4:54 PM
I found this interview with M. Ayoob about what to do after a shooting. It was TLDR, but I'll read it later.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/3-most-common-post-shooting-errors

I was actually searching for "Frank Magliato" who is the guy who shot a guy in the face and then said that he had cocked his revolver into SA mode to scare the guy then ... a car drove by, startling him and he fired the gun and shot the guy right between the eyes. He's in prison now because he created a dangerous situation and someone died because of it (cocking a pistol into SA with finger on trigger while pointed at the guys face). He could have easily said that the guy, who was holding a baseball bat and coming at him, was shot because he was going to attack him, which was probably true. Google him and read up on the case.

-hanko
05-02-2012, 5:02 PM
I found this interview with M. Ayoob about what to do after a shooting. It was TLDR, but I'll read it later.
Uh, nothing from Mas about gun modifications here...

Actor in this case had, perhaps, an ND. He compounded his trouble by disappearing for a while and turning himself in after he reappeared.

-hanko

Gryff
05-02-2012, 9:55 PM
Gryff, you and I have both been here long enough to see many threads asking the same question...I have yet to see an answer that can point to an actual trial, criminal or civil.

Per Massad Ayoob in Guns Magazine, January 2004:

There is a place for the light "target grade" trigger pull and a place for the heavier "service grade." For street carry, I'll definitely take a four pound plus trigger on a 1911. It more effectively avoids both stress-induced unintentional discharges, and false accusations of same that can lead to manslaughter charges and wrongful death suits. Court cases such as Florida v. Alvarez, Kentucky v. Rucker, and Crown v. Gossett, to name but three, have taught me that much. For a pistol match, though, it's easy to understand why so many of the tournament-shooting champions have gone to light trigger pulls.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_1_50/ai_110470552

pyromensch
05-02-2012, 10:44 PM
pretty much common sense, but i was hoping he would address, magazine disconnects, would like to see what he would have said

KandyRedCoi
05-03-2012, 12:40 AM
4lbs is pretty much the cut off then? my kimber (best trigger i have out of all my pistols) is rated at 4.5lbs and to me thats plenty light...

Briancnelson
05-03-2012, 11:22 AM
It's only ever going to come into play where the shooting itself was questionable. All of the cases cited by Ayoob show that there was room for interpretation on what happened.

In a clear cut case of self defense, in your own home, or with witnesses who see someone pull a gun or a knife or a bat and threaten you, you are unlikely to ever face a criminal or civil trial. There are hundreds of such incidents every year, even in gun hating states, that are never prosecuted.

If the case for self defense isn't as clear, as in the Zimmerman case, or where there's a nutty prosecutor who hates gun rights, well, in those cases you'll likely face prosecution no matter what you did to the gun. You could increase the pull to 12 pounds and if the shoot's no good, it's no good.

Ayoob's advice is good, however, if only because a very light trigger might lead to accidental discharge under high stress situations. My HD gun is modified to take up all the slack in the trigger and have a shorter reset, but I left the springs as set at the factory for about a 6 pound pull. This offers me a nice clean trigger pull that isn't likely to affect my shooting, but isn't likely to go off because my finger tenses up under stress. On many striker fired pistols, that's really the only safety margin you have against such things.

Gryff
05-03-2012, 11:28 AM
It's only ever going to come into play where the shooting itself was questionable. All of the cases cited by Ayoob show that there was room for interpretation on what happened.

In a clear cut case of self defense, in your own home, or with witnesses who see someone pull a gun or a knife or a bat and threaten you, you are unlikely to ever face a criminal or civil trial. There are hundreds of such incidents every year, even in gun hating states, that are never prosecuted.

If the case for self defense isn't as clear, as in the Zimmerman case, or where there's a nutty prosecutor who hates gun rights, well, in those cases you'll likely face prosecution no matter what you did to the gun. You could increase the pull to 12 pounds and if the shoot's no good, it's no good.

Ayoob's advice is good, however, if only because a very light trigger might lead to accidental discharge under high stress situations. My HD gun is modified to take up all the slack in the trigger and have a shorter reset, but I left the springs as set at the factory for about a 6 pound pull. This offers me a nice clean trigger pull that isn't likely to affect my shooting, but isn't likely to go off because my finger tenses up under stress. On many striker fired pistols, that's really the only safety margin you have against such things.

I agree with your points. I'm just trying to figure out how to insure that a self-defense shooting is going to be "clear cut." If they only people that see it occur are me and the dead guy, it's tough to come up with corroborating witnesses. And god forbid if, in the middle of the dark house, the dirtbag turns after the first round impacts and the next one catches him in the back...

Kendoka
05-03-2012, 11:46 PM
I am sure that he would think mag disconnects are unsafe. If you are in midst of changing a magazine when you suddenly have to respond an immediate and deadly attack ... and the shot that will save your life is in the chamber ... and you don't even have the split second to complete your reload ... and a magazine disconnect prevents you from firing the shot that will save your life ... what could be more unsafe?