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View Full Version : child can be removed from home over guns?


SNEAKS
04-29-2012, 10:58 PM
My girlfreind and I live together and her 7 year old lives at our house half the week. My girlfriend is going through some custody issues with her daughters dad right now. While my girlfriend was talking to her aunt this week, who is a childrens social worker, she said that the daughter would be removed from our home, because I own guns, if the daughters dad were to call social workers for some reason. The aunt also said one of the first things the social worker asks is if there are any guns in the house. If you tell them that there are, the social workers will remove the child on the spot from the home just because there are guns in the home. Even if they are all stored in a large safe and locked up. Is this really the case? I just cant see this being true.

drifter2be
04-29-2012, 11:04 PM
Sounds like FUD, but not the kind of shenanigans I would put past a gov't agency being capable of.

Ron-Solo
04-29-2012, 11:10 PM
They would have to show that the guns present a danger to the child. I've been on many calls with cps and a child was never taken because there were guns in the house.

Until this is sorted out with her ex, keep your guns locked up and out of sight of the child. If she is interviewed and they ask her, she can say that she doesn't see your guns. If you are walking around the house all the time with one strapped to your hip, that won't present a good image to a visiting social worker. If you do that, the child will mention it at some point.

Appearance is important at this stage. Good luck to you.

alfred1222
04-29-2012, 11:29 PM
This sounds like FUD to me.. they would have to show that the weapons are a danger to the children, and honestly, i think out of sight out of mind is the way to go on this one OP

bohoki
04-30-2012, 12:04 AM
how many guns is the home above bullets can come up through the floor

Carnivore
04-30-2012, 12:13 AM
Sounds like Auntie has some gun issues but is complete FUD unless like has been said they can prove the guns pose a risk to the child's safety. That would mean you are running amok with it in hand, threating people or the Ex-hubby etc. My (now ex) but at the time wife was having a batter with her then new ex (LOOONNNGGG STORY) and he had pics of me with the guns in the front room after we got back from shooting. Still they just shrugged it off and we kept the kid. Flip side I had pics of him with a pistol on the kitchen table with a bong and weed next to it and they just shrugged that off too so tit for tat.

Steve1968LS2
04-30-2012, 6:52 AM
FUD.. we are fostering two boys and they are VERY strict (water temp from faucet cant be over 119 degrees.. smoke detectors EVERYWHERE)

The asked "do you have guns?" I said yes and they asked how many.. I said 20something.. they asked if they were locked up and I said yep and then showed them the safes.

After that they didn't seem to care..

PackingHeatInSDCA
04-30-2012, 6:57 AM
I think the cleaning products under the kitchen sink pose more of a threat to the child than guns locked in a safe do.

bubbapug1
04-30-2012, 7:09 AM
I have had the police come out twice over guns in the house. Both times when they verified they were locked up they made small talk about guns, hunting, and left. Its total fud.

But leave a loaded gun around the house and they will take the kids away pronto.

RMP91
04-30-2012, 7:26 AM
I have had the police come out twice over guns in the house. Both times when they verified they were locked up they made small talk about guns, hunting, and left. Its total fud.

But leave a loaded gun around the house and they will take the kids away pronto.

I wonder how I was still allowed to live with my parent's during the late 90s (I was around 7-8 at the time). My father would almost always leave at least 3 loaded guns laying around various locations in the house, mostly because his line of work (Sheriff's SGT.) has him doing so much stuff at one time (his spotty memory may have something to do with it also) he'd almost always forget about them (the guns) until I told him about it (back then, Eddie Eagle was the authority on guns for me, but it's obviously different now).

RandyD
04-30-2012, 7:26 AM
I represent parents whose children have been taken away by CPS, and this is how I see the scenario. The social worker that makes contact with the parents will most likely get a supervisor's approval to remove the children, this is usually accomplished with a quick phone call. Parents have no due process rights at the moment the children are removed. To justifiably remove the children from their home, CPS needs to have articulable grounds that the children are in danger and they will need to write a Detention Report and schedule a Detention Hearing within 48 hours. At the Detention Hearing, a judge will review the Detention Report and determine if the removal was justifiable. Parents will be provided a copy of the Detention Report at the beginning of the Detention Hearing, and will not get to review it or prepare a response prior to the hearing.

As I see it, if the CPS workers involved, have an issue with firearms and they can articulate that the children are in danger, they will act upon their agenda. If your case gets assigned to a judge that is anti-gun, your children will be detained. Ask yourself this, do you think it is more probable for a CPS worker and a judge to be anti-gun or gun friendly.

winnre
04-30-2012, 7:37 AM
They ask about guns for "officer safety" reasons. Just reply you want safety too.

Kid Stanislaus
04-30-2012, 8:07 AM
how many guns is the home above bullets can come up through the floor

Literucy are a wonderful thang!!:rolleyes:

Kid Stanislaus
04-30-2012, 8:09 AM
I have had the police come out twice over guns in the house. Both times when they verified they were locked up they made small talk about guns, hunting, and left. Its total fud. But leave a loaded gun around the house and they will take the kids away pronto.

Right. Have a gun handy to thwart an intruder and the kids get kidnapped by the government!:mad:

Falstaff
04-30-2012, 8:30 AM
Isnt it true that cps courts are based on the eugenics courts of the 20's and that none of your constitutional rights apply once you're in their crosshairs?
(no due process, no jury, no discovery etc)







I represent parents whose children have been taken away by CPS, and this is how I see the scenario. The social worker that makes contact with the parents will most likely get a supervisor's approval to remove the children, this is usually accomplished with a quick phone call. Parents have no due process rights at the moment the children are removed. To justifiably remove the children from their home, CPS needs to have articulable grounds that the children are in danger and they will need to write a Detention Report and schedule a Detention Hearing within 48 hours. At the Detention Hearing, a judge will review the Detention Report and determine if the removal was justifiable. Parents will be provided a copy of the Detention Report at the beginning of the Detention Hearing, and will not get to review it or prepare a response prior to the hearing.

As I see it, if the CPS workers involved, have an issue with firearms and they can articulate that the children are in danger, they will act upon their agenda. If your case gets assigned to a judge that is anti-gun, your children will be detained. Ask yourself this, do you think it is more probable for a CPS worker and a judge to be anti-gun or gun friendly.

CBruce
04-30-2012, 8:45 AM
My girlfreind and I live together and her 7 year old lives at our house half the week. My girlfriend is going through some custody issues with her daughters dad right now. While my girlfriend was talking to her aunt this week, who is a childrens social worker, she said that the daughter would be removed from our home, because I own guns, if the daughters dad were to call social workers for some reason. The aunt also said one of the first things the social worker asks is if there are any guns in the house. If you tell them that there are, the social workers will remove the child on the spot from the home just because there are guns in the home. Even if they are all stored in a large safe and locked up. Is this really the case? I just cant see this being true.

Lock em up, unloaded and keep the ammo in a seperate locked container. Not the ideal way to store a weapon for home defense, but in a situation like this better to follow the full reccomendation of the state as to safely storying firearms in a home with children.

Good luck with your custody battle. Have a brother an law who's still grappling with custody issues even with his son now 13 years old.

RandyD
04-30-2012, 8:49 AM
Isnt it true that cps courts are based on the eugenics courts of the 20's and that none of your constitutional rights apply once you're in their crosshairs?
(no due process, no jury, no discovery etc)

I don't know anything about the eugenics courts from the 20s.

You have due process rights, but they can take your children without a court hearing.

Once the court has exercised jurisdiction over your children, you have a right to discovery.

There is no jury trial in juvenile dependency cases. IMO, most judges in that area of the law favor the state.

The only good thing I can say about the juvenile dependency process is that the law favors giving the children back to the parents. The problem is that the parents are put through an emotional and financial ordeal.

A-J
04-30-2012, 10:06 AM
Come on now y'all - you KNOW that guns are dangerous. Just the fact they exist poses serious danger to the health and safety of everyone. If not watched very closely, our guns will do everything in their power to kill the men, steal our women, and press our children into slavery.

/sarcasm off now/

In all seriousness, I would never put anything past Child "Protective" Services. Remember, these are the people that can take away your kids because THEY felt it was the "right thing to do" and not because of any proven or verifiable threat to the health and well being of the child.

Demonicspire
04-30-2012, 10:18 AM
A good thing to do would probably be to have a good family lawyer on the speed dial, keep your guns locked up. Divorces are pretty ugly. I have a co worker whose ex husband kept claiming she had been arrested and tried for murder in various places in the state, basically forcing her to drive to all the various PDs and get a letter from them saying they'd never arrested her.

Glock22Fan
04-30-2012, 10:32 AM
But . . . . it's for the children!

TheExpertish
04-30-2012, 10:39 AM
It should be FUD, but anything can happen. I've had visits and still have my kids. Guns isn't the first thing they ask, and I don't volunteer the info either. Can it happen, yes. Should it happen, no. Just be wary. Keep in mind you are not obligated to participate in a CPS investigation.

winnre
04-30-2012, 10:47 AM
But . . . . it's for the children!

Very hard argument in a country where abortion is legal!

RandyD
04-30-2012, 11:13 AM
Keep in mind you are not obligated to participate in a CPS investigation.

Correct. CPS needs a warrant to enter your house, even to take your children into custody. As an attorney, I highly recommend that you do not consent to warrantless searches or consent your children to be taken into custody. Keep your children in your home, and call an attorney. However, CPS can take your children into custody without a warrant by going to their school or place of daycare.

Glock22Fan
04-30-2012, 11:36 AM
Correct. CPS needs a warrant to enter your house, even to take your children into custody. As an attorney, I highly recommend that you do not consent to warrantless searches or consent your children to be taken into custody. Keep your children in your home, and call an attorney. However, CPS can take your children into custody without a warrant by going to their school or place of daycare.

Another good reason to home school.

shayski
04-30-2012, 7:25 PM
if guns are locked and safe there is no issue.

JohanD
04-30-2012, 7:40 PM
FUD.. we are fostering two boys and they are VERY strict (water temp from faucet cant be over 119 degrees.. smoke detectors EVERYWHERE)

The asked "do you have guns?" I said yes and they asked how many.. I said 20something.. they asked if they were locked up and I said yep and then showed them the safes.

After that they didn't seem to care..

Exactly this. They don't even care to look at the guns as long as they are locked up to their satisfaction.

Anchors
05-01-2012, 3:28 AM
Correct. CPS needs a warrant to enter your house, even to take your children into custody. As an attorney, I highly recommend that you do not consent to warrantless searches or consent your children to be taken into custody. Keep your children in your home, and call an attorney. However, CPS can take your children into custody without a warrant by going to their school or place of daycare.

And I thought that DV law was the most vague, arbitrary, and unconstitutional of the extremely serious family related issues.

I understand why these and DV laws exist, but sometimes they go to far protecting the few and end up hurting more good people than they help.

This scares me into not wanting to have kids any time soon. lol.

jimx
05-01-2012, 7:17 AM
To justifiably remove the children from their home, CPS needs to have articulable grounds that the children are in danger and they will need to write a Detention Report and schedule a Detention Hearing within 48 hours. At the Detention Hearing, a judge will review the Detention Report and determine if the removal was justifiable.

I am in the process of this right now and can add a couple of things.
At the 48 hour hearing the burden of proof is only a "preponderance of the evidence". The investigator Social Worker said she wrote a harsh report and said the kid would be removed (he was). It appears easy for CPS to temperamentally remove a kid.

In our case the next hearing was 30 days later, without the kid. It was like a plea deal. (Went no were). The actual trial was 30 after that. I do not know if that is typical or if you can speed it up????

As far as guns go, it was the first or second question the housing social worker asked me and the mother did call the cops saying the kid was in danger and I had weapons in the house. When this started to go down the first thing I did was get all my guns out of the house. My thinking was even if there was a small chance that they could be an issue, it would be better to remove them. In hind sight I think I did the right thing.

Ripon83
05-01-2012, 7:31 AM
My wife did CPS for 12 years. She'd call this BS, but then she'd also note the incredible discretion social workers have. She noted in her las few years there ( as a supervisor ) social workers discriminating ( especially against white men, Christians, and Hispanics ) by minority workers. Also, tell them you don't believe in gay marriage and watch out. Any evidence of homophobia and you are in trouble. She had to call the police to get them to stop one of her workers that called and said she was removing a foster kid from an approved foster home cause they had a prop 8 sign in their yard.

She left the county Frey a few years ago and serves Vets now with the VA. She's a much happier person.

RandyD
05-01-2012, 8:04 AM
Whenever CPS detains a child, it must immediately file a petition, and the court will schedule a Detention hearing, usually that hearing is within 48 hours, and the burden of proof is on CPS and the burden of proof is a prima facie showing, which means there is proof that a fact is true. This is a lower burden of proof than a preponderance of the evidence. Once this showing is made the court will schedule a Jurisidiction and Disposition Hearing, within 15 days if the child has been detained, or within 30 days if the child has not been detained. At this hearing, CPS bears the burden of proof which is a preponderance of evidence.

Regarding firearms, some members have posted that CPS has been satisfied that their firearms pose no danger to a child. However, I am not aware of any case law that restricts CPS from using the presence of a firearm to support an allegation that the child is at risk. CPS uses exposure to drugs to support such allegations, so it naturally follows that in the future a case of a child being exposed to firearms will eventually get filed.

RandyD
05-01-2012, 8:12 AM
My wife did CPS for 12 years. She'd call this BS, but then she'd also note the incredible discretion social workers have. She noted in her las few years there ( as a supervisor ) social workers discriminating ( especially against white men, Christians, and Hispanics ) by minority workers. Also, tell them you don't believe in gay marriage and watch out. Any evidence of homophobia and you are in trouble. She had to call the police to get them to stop one of her workers that called and said she was removing a foster kid from an approved foster home cause they had a prop 8 sign in their yard.

She left the county Frey a few years ago and serves Vets now with the VA. She's a much happier person.

I have observed a similar trend. CPS seems to focus more on families that are white, Christian, military and those from the lower middle economic class, meaning those who are least likely to be able to hire a competent attorney that that can successfully litigate against them.

In regards to having a competent attorney, the state will appoint you an attorney, and you will get a bill at the end of the case. I have worked with these attorneys, they are procedurally competent, but their litigation skills are not sharp, they are more interested in protecting their clients' rights to due process, and not so concerned about zealously advocating the facts of their clients' case.