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View Full Version : How To Make A Situation Right. Advice Needed.


flyte74
04-29-2012, 6:05 PM
If a resident was given a Cali legal rifle by someone out of state and they brought that rifle into California not knowing about the federal requirement to transfer through an FFL, how can they fix it after the fact?

dantodd
04-29-2012, 6:13 PM
They really can't. I suppose you could have the rifle shipped to a CA FFL and then pay the transfer fees and DROS fee. You could also turn it in to the police. Finally,nyou could hold on to the gun until the statute of limitations runs out. (3 years I believe.)

It's sort of like saying that you cut down a protected tree or killed a protected animal not knowing they were illegal to cut/kill. You can't really undo the crime but you can either turn yourself in or shut up and don't do it again.

johnthomas
04-29-2012, 6:23 PM
As of now, rifles are not registered. When you take a long gun to a FFL to transfer it to someone else, they are there to pay the money, insure they are legal to own it. They wait the 10 day cooling off period, the DOJ is supposed to get rid of any information on the transaction and that is it. If the above goes the way it is supposed to, how would the state know how many long guns you have and when you got them.

dantodd
04-29-2012, 6:34 PM
If the above goes the way it is supposed to, how would the state know how many long guns you have and when you got them.

They wouldn't. And the OP wasn't asking about his chances of "getting away" with breaking the law, he was asking if there is a method to make right an inadvertent criminal action.

SilverTauron
04-29-2012, 8:31 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but is it not true that only handguns need to be transferred through an FFL if its an out of state sale?

I don't know how California local laws play into this, but on my last trip out of state I was informed by an FFL that if I plunked down the coin I could walk out the door with any rifle I wanted, but a handgun had to go through an FFL.

QQQ
04-29-2012, 9:00 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but is it not true that only handguns need to be transferred through an FFL if its an out of state sale?From a purely legal perspective, I think you need to go through an FFL.

NorCal Mtn Flyer
04-29-2012, 9:35 PM
I guess I'm curious about this as well! I spend a great deal of time in Texas, Colorado (current resident), and Alaska, where I am allowed to buy long arms from pvt individuals without going through an FFL, or creating a documented paper trail.
I was also under the impression that since these were long gun sales, they are legal and therefore were legal to transfer from state to state, including Calif, provided they meet Calif requirements / features.

So I guess the bottom line question is simply whether or not an individual has the right to purchase/receive a long gun in a state other than the state of their residence without the transfer going through an FFL, and then hand carry that long gun back to their state of residence.

Isn't it the case that any non-restricted person can acquire long guns across state lines, in person, without going through an FFL?

Burbur
04-29-2012, 9:37 PM
SSS LOL JK

If it was given to your err... friend, the recipient is probably a close friend or family member of the original owner. That said, what is currently happening was probably a loan. ;)

I would suggest the two parties make the transfer official, now that your friend wants to take ownership the firearm.

@NorCal iirc Federal laws require transfers like this to be between resident of the same state. Unfortunately I, as a Californian, cannot go to Arizona and play by Arizonas rules.

dantodd
04-29-2012, 9:52 PM
So I guess the bottom line question is simply whether or not an individual has the right to purchase/receive a long gun in a state other than the state of their residence without the transfer going through an FFL, and then hand carry that long gun back to their state of residence.

Isn't it the case that any non-restricted person can acquire long guns across state lines, in person, without going through an FFL?

federal law requires that all transfers between residents of different states abide by the laws of the state of residency of both people. California law requires that all firearm purchases be transacted by a CA licensed firearm dealer and have a ten day wait. Since there are no CA licensed dealers outside of CA that means you must ship a firearm to CA if a CA resident is trying to buy a gun from another state.

NorCal Mtn Flyer
04-29-2012, 10:16 PM
federal law requires that all transfers between residents of different states abide by the laws of the state of residency of both people. California law requires that all firearm purchases be transacted by a CA licensed firearm dealer and have a ten day wait. Since there are no CA licensed dealers outside of CA that means you must ship a firearm to CA if a CA resident is trying to buy a gun from another state.


Aah... now I have it... It is still a function of Calif restrictions, since most other states don't have such draconian restrictions.

Librarian
04-29-2012, 11:00 PM
I guess I'm curious about this as well! I spend a great deal of time in Texas, Colorado (current resident), and Alaska, where I am allowed to buy long arms from pvt individuals without going through an FFL, or creating a documented paper trail.
...

Aah... now I have it... It is still a function of Calif restrictions, since most other states don't have such draconian restrictions.

Not quite.

As a resident of Colorado, unless you have a C&R license and buy C&R guns, Federal law requires that you use an FFL for any purchase made out of Colorado.

Outside of California citizens (there may be another state with this goofy restriction, but I am not aware of it), the long-gun-out-of-state purchase works with the FFL, but as a resident of another state, you cannot take advantage of the face-to-face purchases allowed to state residents.

See also the Calguns Foundation Wiki article on

Interstate transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_firearms_Interstate

Skipper
04-30-2012, 10:35 AM
What rifle? I bought this one 2 years ago. :rolleyes:

flyte74
04-30-2012, 11:10 AM
Thanks for the info guys.

Glock22Fan
04-30-2012, 5:23 PM
What rifle? I bought this one more than three years ago. :rolleyes:

Fixed it for you.

Not that I am condoning illegal activity . . . .

fiddletown
04-30-2012, 6:29 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but is it not true that only handguns need to be transferred through an FFL if its an out of state sale?
...I'm sorry, but you are wrong. See below.

...So I guess the bottom line question is simply whether or not an individual has the right to purchase/receive a long gun in a state other than the state of their residence without the transfer going through an FFL, and then hand carry that long gun back to their state of residence....Unfortunately, the way the federal law works, a California resident (and probably a resident of some other States) can't. See below.

Here is pretty much the whole story on interstate transfers (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses or the subject of dual residency):

[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Here's what the statutes say:18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

....

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;...

cmichini
04-30-2012, 7:11 PM
I guess I'm curious about this as well! I spend a great deal of time in Texas, Colorado (current resident), and Alaska, where I am allowed to buy long arms from pvt individuals without going through an FFL, or creating a documented paper trail.
I was also under the impression that since these were long gun sales, they are legal and therefore were legal to transfer from state to state, including Calif, provided they meet Calif requirements / features.

So I guess the bottom line question is simply whether or not an individual has the right to purchase/receive a long gun in a state other than the state of their residence without the transfer going through an FFL, and then hand carry that long gun back to their state of residence.

Isn't it the case that any non-restricted person can acquire long guns across state lines, in person, without going through an FFL?

You're talking about America but the discussion is about California.
Unfortunately they are mutually exclusive bodies.
Its for the children you know.

bohoki
04-30-2012, 7:22 PM
you cant un-speed

you sped you didnt get caught move on with your life

Mssr. Eleganté
04-30-2012, 9:20 PM
You're talking about America but the discussion is about California.
Unfortunately they are mutually exclusive bodies.
Its for the children you know.

Actually, he is talking about America pre-1968. In the America of today if a Colorado resident goes to Texas or Alaska and acquires a firearm directly from a resident of those States without going though an FFL then he has committed a felony. This isn't about California. If a grandpa who lives in Idaho wants to give his old .22 rifle to his grandson who lives in Nevada as an 18th birthday present, they have go through an FFL. It's been the law of the land for over 40 years.

bsim
04-30-2012, 9:31 PM
Actually, he is talking about America pre-1968. In the America of today if a Colorado resident goes to Texas or Alaska and acquires a firearm directly from a resident of those States without going though an FFL then he has committed a felony.FYI, SOME states allow you to buy long guns in "adjoining" states.

Librarian
04-30-2012, 9:56 PM
FYI, SOME states allow you to buy long guns in "adjoining" states.

That's out of date - the adjoining state part was tossed; now, so long as the buyer and seller go to an FFL, and follow the laws of their own states, the sale can be anywhere. E.G. two hunters, one from Texas and one from Montana, can go to an FFL in Alaska and swap their hunting rifles.

But CA residents cannot participate, because to follow CA state law, the transfer must use a CA-licensed FFL.

IntoForever
04-30-2012, 9:58 PM
Sounds to me like the firearm was borrowed for now, so as to not break any laws. Find out what steps are needed to purchase said firearm via FFL and go from there.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-30-2012, 10:54 PM
FYI, SOME states allow you to buy long guns in "adjoining" states.

The 1968 Gun Control Act allowed the adjoining State sales, but only if the firearm was a rifle or shotgun, and only if the transfer was through an FFL, and only if the transfer complied with the laws of both States. In 1986 the Feds got rid of the adjoining State wording from the Gun Control Act and allowed sales in any State. But the sale still had to be through an FFL, still had to be a rifle or shotgun, and still had to follow the laws of both States.

So private party transfers between residents of two different States without the use of an FFL have still been illegal since 1968, no matter what any State's law says.

But you still see guys on various gun forums ripping on California and bragging that they can buy guns from private parties in different "cool" States because they live in a "cool" State too. It doesn't work that way. Nevada and Arizona could pass a law tomorrow that says Nevada and Arizona residents can trade firearms without using an FFL, but Federal law would still prohibit it.

Munk
04-30-2012, 11:41 PM
If this was a recent development within 30 days or so, they can consider it to be a "Loan" of a firearm, and they'd just have to give it back to the original owner. If they wanted to buy it from the original owner, they'd then need that owner to send the rifle to an FFL who's willing to handle an interstate transfer (50+DROS or more, so shop around for good prices) and they'd have to wait the 10-day.

If this happened about... let's say, 3 years and a day ago, then they screwed up, but because they weren't caught for 3 years, the statute of limitations has run out and they can no longer be prosecuted for it.

In any event, it's best to not admit to potential crimes in any way. Take your lesson learned, follow the law in the future; and keep your mouth shut.

Ninjapilot
05-13-2012, 8:38 PM
So how did you "fix" the problem? What did you decide?

hammerhead_77
05-14-2012, 1:48 PM
....Hmmm. This would seem to make going to a garage sale in Idaho and "borrowing" a rifle from a guy problematic. Especially if you were to let said guy borrow $100 from you at the same time.

Always strictly obey all firearms laws, and floss after every meal.

Kyle1886
05-14-2012, 2:29 PM
Suppose a relative/friend from out of state visited me, and he brought a long gun to hunt with while here. During the visit I decide to buy said long gun. If unable to find a local FFL to do the transfer because the seller is an out of state resident (and/or unsure of that states law), the seller must go back to his home state and ship it to my FFL?

Correct?
Incorrect?

Respectfully
Kyle

fiddletown
05-14-2012, 2:38 PM
Suppose a relative/friend from out of state visited me, and he brought a long gun to hunt with while here. During the visit I decide to buy said long gun. If unable to find a local FFL to do the transfer because the seller is an out of state resident (and/or unsure of that states law), the seller must go back to his home state and ship it to my FFL?

Correct?
Incorrect?...Technically correct. But I can't imagine not being able to find a local FFL to do the transfer. The FFL receiving the gun for transfer directly from the hands of the seller is really no different from the seller shipping the gun to the FFL.

Kyle1886
05-14-2012, 3:12 PM
Thanks, Fiddletown for confirming.

Respectfully
Kyle

dantodd
05-14-2012, 4:24 PM
Thanks, Fiddletown for confirming.

Respectfully
Kyle

Remember though that there are two different types of transfers. One is commonly referred to as a person to person transfer (or PPT) and while your friend bringing the fun into to shop should qualify this transfer as a PPT whith a maximum transfer fee of $35 the DOJ has written their software in such a manner that the dealer cannot process the transfer without the seller having a CA ID. This means the dealer is not limited to the $35 transfer fee and may charge you any fee he thinks the market will bear.

CBruce
05-15-2012, 1:43 PM
FYI, SOME states allow you to buy long guns in "adjoining" states.

Hazarding a guess that Alaska isn't one of them

flyte74
05-15-2012, 1:51 PM
So how did you "fix" the problem? What did you decide?

Well, from reading the responses and researching some more I realized there was no problem to fix.

Thanks again for the help guys.

Ninjapilot
05-16-2012, 11:16 PM
Remember though that there are two different types of transfers. One is commonly referred to as a person to person transfer (or PPT) and while your friend bringing the fun into to shop should qualify this transfer as a PPT whith a maximum transfer fee of $35 the DOJ has written their software in such a manner that the dealer cannot process the transfer without the seller having a CA ID. This means the dealer is not limited to the $35 transfer fee and may charge you any fee he thinks the market will bear.

So if seller doesn't have CA ID then how does the FFL write it up? Like a voluntary registration to be able to Dros and do the 10 day hold?

Mssr. Eleganté
05-16-2012, 11:43 PM
So if seller doesn't have CA ID then how does the FFL write it up? Like a voluntary registration to be able to Dros and do the 10 day hold?

If the seller doesn't have CA ID then the FFL treats it like a transfer shipped in from out of state. The two main differences are...

...the dealer isn't bound by the $35 PPT price cap. He can charge whatever he wants for the transfer.

...if the firearm is a handgun then it either needs to be on the Roster or exempt from the Roster.

Hazarding a guess that Alaska isn't one of them

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: