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Intimid8tor
04-29-2007, 5:26 PM
I'm new here and have read with anger and frustration over some of the recent arrests of people for legal OLL builds.

I was curious if there were any LEOs on the board (other than DOJ monitoring) and what their thoughts are on this and other similar arrests.

matarlegoate
04-29-2007, 9:33 PM
I'm curious, what OLL arrests are you speaking of in particular? I've never heard all the details from any OLL arrests. As a matter of fact, most people know NO details regarding some of the most recent arrests, but still have posted 30 pages of speculation.

Intimid8tor
04-29-2007, 9:45 PM
I'm curious, what OLL arrests are you speaking of in particular? I've never heard all the details from any OLL arrests. As a matter of fact, most people know NO details regarding some of the most recent arrests, but still have posted 30 pages of speculation.

Very true. I'm not asking about the details. I'm asking about thoughts from LEOs as they are the ones actually making the arrests. Not particularly the ones on this board, but some LEOs in the state.

I was just curious as to their thoughts on the whole OLL deal.

bodyarmorguy27
04-29-2007, 10:08 PM
I'm an LEO. I'm a member of this forum, so obviously I am pro-gun. How are we to assume that all the OLL builds were legal, or illegal for that matter? How many threads are there on "re-building" 30 round magazines?

One word I have for everyone is PERSEC. Keep a low profile. Fly under the radar. Don't draw attention to yourself.

Pick your battles. A moral victory may cost you.

jkasandiego
04-29-2007, 10:13 PM
+1 to bodyarmorguy

ask80
04-29-2007, 10:13 PM
true that on the above. how many people have purchased so called "replacement parts" and "replacement mag bodies" for 30 rnd mags that they "supposedly" had before 2000 when they were like 16 yrs old..

or people asking if you "find" a 30 rnd mag somewhere, etc...:rolleyes:

but yes i'm leo and am aware of OLLs and arrests...

ImpliedConsent
04-29-2007, 10:24 PM
I'm an LEO. I'm a member of this forum, so obviously I am pro-gun.

Many people seem to want to draw an unnecessary - nay, counterproductive - line between the strict civilian population, and our ranks of officers. We are all here because we want to get the most out of our communities, and the promotion of peaceful living is inherent in that goal.

I'd like, first off, to thank you for your service to our communities. Secondarily, I find it heartening that as one sworn to protect and serve, you still respect the individual's right to provide for their own protection; whether this be purely pragmatic (you can't always be there), or ideological, I appreciate it.

Please, please, please, try to spread this outlook to your companions in the force. One day, you or one of them may be the local CLEO, and I for one would love to have as much level-headed guidance as possible within our law enforcement community.

OLL builds, much like normal modifications to otherwise starkly legal firearms can come in two forms: legal and not. One could, for instance, build an OLL up, complete with PG, and neglect to fix the mag. At that point, the receiver isn't the illegal part.

I encourage any of you who are reading to please gather as much information regarding the specifics of the cases in-question, so that if there has been injustice done, it can specifically be addressed. Secondarily, we can continue to address the central issue: many things are illegal in CA which do not benefit our communities by being forbidden. This is not an issue that LEO's are responsible for, but our legislature. Don't make the mistake of conflating the two, as the one is beholden to the other in this matter.

DedEye
04-29-2007, 10:28 PM
true that on the above. how many people have purchased so called "replacement parts" and "replacement mag bodies" for 30 rnd mags that they "supposedly" had before 2000 when they were like 16 yrs old..

Why is that absurd? You don't have to be over 18 to buy a magazine, and some of us hoarded mags that were left to us by parents (or that we bought ourselves if our parents were anti-gun) due to the AWB before 2000.

MaceWindu
04-29-2007, 10:37 PM
One word I have for everyone is PERSEC. Keep a low profile. Fly under the radar. Don't draw attention to yourself.

This is one of the wisest posts I have seen in a while.


Mace

wilit
04-29-2007, 10:42 PM
I had a good friend who is a cop tell me once, "It's the police's job to enforce the law. It's a judge's job to interpret it." Basically, if there's a gray area and they think it might be illegal, you're getting charged. It's then the judge's job to determine whether or not you're innocent.

rorschach
04-29-2007, 10:47 PM
Why is that absurd? You don't have to be over 18 to buy a magazine, and some of us hoarded mags that were left to us by parents (or that we bought ourselves if our parents were anti-gun) due to the AWB before 2000.

+1

I was 17 when the '94 ban took effect, even when I was young as 13-14, I was buying standard cap mags. You show me the current California law where it says a minor cannot possess ammunition feeding devices, and I'll give you my beloved HK collection.

50 Freak
04-29-2007, 10:58 PM
I had a good friend who is a cop tell me once, "It's the police's job to enforce the law. It's a judge's job to interpret it." Basically, if there's a gray area and they think it might be illegal, you're getting charged. It's then the judge's job to determine whether or not you're innocent.

The problem with that is by the time you PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT (nevermind one of our founding principals of this country it the belief in innocent until proven guilty). You've probably lost your job because of jail time and have spent a ton of money defending yourself against bogus charges. No wonder so many innocent people plea bargain...I tell you it seems like only the rich can be innocent in these times. Everyone else has to choose between plea bargaining or bankruptcy...

ballistic
04-29-2007, 10:59 PM
Can someone please refer me to recent cases of arrests of people with legally configured rifles?
So far every post I have seen was one that did not have specific information about how the rifle was set up.

AW-FANATIC
04-30-2007, 12:31 AM
www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=42068&highlight=swimmingpoolguy
Here is a thread about an arrest with a legally configured OLL. Search for OLL arrests and others will come up as well.

CalNRA
04-30-2007, 1:48 AM
Innocent until proven.........ehh, it doesn't matter these days. :cool:

don't let him know if you want to rebuild a 30-rounder you legally own that is damaged, he may be a good citizen and alert the authorities.

eta34
04-30-2007, 8:12 AM
I am an LEO and I am firmly against gun bans, gun control, any kind of restrictions against the law-abiding citizen. I have made that point clear many times on this board.

Here are a few thoughts that come to mind. Before some of the anti-LEO crowd jump all over me, please don't take this post as a blind defense of police. It is not. The two most recent "OLL arrests" have been met with a ton of speculation on this board. None of us (except for the two arrestees) know the configuration of their rifles; no of us know the information leading to their respective arrests; none of us know much at all except for the relatively anonymous postings of internet chat forum members and the generally inaccurate reporting detailed in daily newspapers.

Having said that, is there a possibility or even a probability that both of these men are completely innocent and are victims of police ignorance? Absolutely...we just need to wait and find out the facts before we jump to conclusions. Perhaps these men had illegally configured rifles; perhaps they were completely legal and the officer knew nothing about OLLs. I don't know, and neither do you.

Like I have said before, we as a community need to educate the law enforcement community in this regard.

Thanks for your time.

BLKTALN
04-30-2007, 8:31 AM
Like I have said before, we as a community need to educate the law enforcement community in this regard.


agreed. thanks for your service to our community.

KenpoProfessor
04-30-2007, 9:06 AM
I am an LEO and I am firmly against gun bans, gun control, any kind of restrictions against the law-abiding citizen. I have made that point clear many times on this board.

Here are a few thoughts that come to mind. Before some of the anti-LEO crowd jump all over me, please don't take this post as a blind defense of police. It is not. The two most recent "OLL arrests" have been met with a ton of speculation on this board. None of us (except for the two arrestees) know the configuration of their rifles; no of us know the information leading to their respective arrests; none of us know much at all except for the relatively anonymous postings of internet chat forum members and the generally inaccurate reporting detailed in daily newspapers.

Having said that, is there a possibility or even a probability that both of these men are completely innocent and are victims of police ignorance? Absolutely...we just need to wait and find out the facts before we jump to conclusions. Perhaps these men had illegally configured rifles; perhaps they were completely legal and the officer knew nothing about OLLs. I don't know, and neither do you.

Like I have said before, we as a community need to educate the law enforcement community in this regard.

Thanks for your time.

First, thank you for your service.

With that being said, where do we go now? People are being arrested because LEO's don't know the laws. As completely innocent victims of ignorance, what is the recourse for the victims of these arrests? That this man suffers is evidence that more efforts should be taken by LEO's to educate themselves further as you have, and thank you for doing so.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Dump1567
04-30-2007, 9:40 AM
First, thank you for your service.

With that being said, where do we go now? People are being arrested because LEO's don't know the laws. As completely innocent victims of ignorance, what is the recourse for the victims of these arrests? That this man suffers is evidence that more efforts should be taken by LEO's to educate themselves further as you have, and thank you for doing so.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

I think something like this would help. Hopefully somethings in the works.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=56613

Another problem I see on this board is a general hostility towards law enforcement. Why would someone who's LEO want to hang out on a board where some members show little or no respect for their profession? Why would you alienate the same person you expect to get the word out?

We need to work to bring more LEO's here to help with the education.

Forget the DOJ, ATF, DA's etc. It's the street cop that's going to make these arrest.

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
04-30-2007, 9:41 AM
Back in 1999 I was 12 years old, I knew I wanted to buy some 20 and 30 round AR mags before SB23 went into effect, so I made a lemonade stand and sold lemonade all summer. I saved up enough money to buy the mags. Then last week, I was looking for something in the attic and just happened to find an old box with some more 30 round mags! Must have been my grandpa's, it's funny the things you just "find" when you least expect it. By the way does anyone know where I can get some replacement mag bodies?

eta34
04-30-2007, 10:09 AM
Kenpo Professor,

You propose a valid question...what happens to these men IF they are truly innocent and the victims of general law enforcement ignorance. Frankly, they should sue the department that arrested them. Sue them for big bucks. Perhaps this will help get the LEO community educated.

Now, regarding the LEO community educating themselves...I think this is a wonderful idea in theory. However, in practice, it just doesn't work. Here is why: First, many of us subscribe to legal update newsletters that deal with significant case law decisions, newly introduced laws, etc. In addition, most departments watch a Legal Updates DVD that covers much of the same material. Finally, many of us stay current with the California Peace Officer's Legal Sourcebook which details pretty much everything a cop needs to know from a legal standpoint, particularly search and seizure laws.

This is how our departments are educating us...they are given the most current materials to show us. I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER seen anything regarding the OLL situation in any of this material...not once. I have spoken to the "legal guru case law nut" that I work with...he is considered the Yoda of this stuff, and he has never heard of OLLs.

Here is my point. Even the most educated LEOs may not come across this stuff because it isn't in the mainstream LEO literature. I stumbled across this site because my brother told me about it. I had some general questions about handguns and fell into the whole OLL thing. I have always been a strong advocate of gun rights, but did not know much until I came here.

This is exactly why I propose that we continue to educate the LEO community on this issue. Most of us are not "gun people." Most of us only use guns as a necessity of the job. Some don't own a gun outside of their duty weapon.

I feel for those who have been wrongly arrested. Being deprived of your freedom is an enormous tragedy. However, we must actively attempt to provide education to those who make these arrests.

Telperion
04-30-2007, 10:41 AM
In that vein, eta34, does your department have any type of regular staff meetings where this could be brought up? Having officers educating their peers seems to be a better route than individuals trying to explain themselves on the side of the road.

eta34
04-30-2007, 11:07 AM
Sure, it can be addressed in shift briefings. However, my department only has 50 sworn. I can help with my PD and a few surrounding, but that doesn't account for the rest of the PDs around. We all have to make an effort.

Telperion
04-30-2007, 11:25 AM
As I see it, if you can help any number of officers in your dept get up to speed on OLLs, you are doing a great service. "Each one, teach one." Thanks.

KenpoProfessor
04-30-2007, 11:30 AM
Sure, it can be addressed in shift briefings. However, my department only has 50 sworn. I can help with my PD and a few surrounding, but that doesn't account for the rest of the PDs around. We all have to make an effort.


Do you guys ever do any joint maneuvers with the Sheriff's Dep. there. If so, this would also be a good time to educate.

My experience with LEO's has been them being dismissive, especially when you see a weakness in their training after being stopped and searched one day. I volunteered my time to train the San Bernadino County Sheriff's and when I talked to Sheriff Penrod, I was told the academy training was enough. To say I was dissappointed was an understatement because I know I could help save their lives one day as was completely ignored without a question of how I could help.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

xrMike
04-30-2007, 11:51 AM
Back in 1999 I was 12 years old, I knew I wanted to buy some 20 and 30 round AR mags before SB23 went into effect, so I made a lemonade stand and sold lemonade all summer. I saved up enough money to buy the mags. Then last week, I was looking for something in the attic and just happened to find an old box with some more 30 round mags! Must have been my grandpa's, it's funny the things you just "find" when you least expect it. By the way does anyone know where I can get some replacement mag bodies?
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c139/ANDROID184/orlybaby.gif

DedEye
04-30-2007, 1:10 PM
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c139/ANDROID184/orlybaby.gif
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D:D:D

Rascal
04-30-2007, 2:31 PM
Kenpo Professor,

Now, regarding the LEO community educating themselves...I think this is a wonderful idea in theory. However, in practice, it just doesn't work.
I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER seen anything regarding the OLL situation in any of this material...not once. I have spoken to the "legal guru case law nut" that I work with...he is considered the Yoda of this stuff, and he has never heard of OLLs.

Here is my point. Even the most educated LEOs may not come across this stuff because it isn't in the mainstream LEO literature. I stumbled across this site because my brother told me about it. I had some general questions about handguns and fell into the whole OLL thing. I have always been a strong advocate of gun rights, but did not know much until I came here.



Everyone needs to understand that it's not just about being on top of gun laws for the LEO community. They have more than enough things to concern themselves with.
You know It's just not possible for someone to be on top of every law that comes out, much less gun laws alone. It can't be done, so what do you do.
You stay on top of what ever has the biggest importance to your boss. The only reason most LEO's don't know about the OLL situation, is because it's not on the radar, and that is because we are, for the most part keeping it that way. This is a double edge sword. It helps and it hinders us. We know that this is legal, but now it is time to bring this out in the open. To bring attention to the OLL situation really is a good thing. Only when it is finally out for everyone to see will the department heads of the law enforcement organizations actually start putting importance on this and then the LEO's will start hearing about this stuff.
It HAS TO BE OUT IN THE OPEN! Remember, the squeaky wheel, get the grease.

summary

LEO's won't hear about it until the bosses tell them
LEO bosses won't care about this until it comes up on the radar.
It won't come up on the radar until we can get it covered by the news media.
We just have to have the right situation to accomplish this. I pray the this situation with BWO may actually be the one situation that can do it.

CalNRA
04-30-2007, 3:48 PM
meanwhile BWO sits in jail with crackheads and gangbangers.

I understand that there is no single person to blame, but at the end of the day BWO is in jail and may lose his entire collection among other legal railroading.

BLKTALN
04-30-2007, 5:32 PM
his life will change after this. having public record of the serious charges regardless of it's later dropped, being looked at with indifference eyes simply of media... who loved his country and sadly he's a 23yo kid with a love for firearm, an individual with big ambitions to find a good job after graduation, and who actually want to do something for the students at ELAC.

for the LEO's who are more knowledgeable with firearms laws, please educate your fellow LEO colleagues.

Super_tactical
04-30-2007, 5:53 PM
Back in 1999 I was 12 years old, I knew I wanted to buy some 20 and 30 round AR mags before SB23 went into effect, so I made a lemonade stand and sold lemonade all summer. I saved up enough money to buy the mags. Then last week, I was looking for something in the attic and just happened to find an old box with some more 30 round mags! Must have been my grandpa's, it's funny the things you just "find" when you least expect it. By the way does anyone know where I can get some replacement mag bodies?

Wow, I did the same thing! My mags keep falling apart though and I keep having to replace the parts.

E Pluribus Unum
04-30-2007, 5:56 PM
his life will change after this. having public record of the serious charges regardless of it's later dropped, being looked at with indifference eyes simply of media... who loved his country and sadly he's a 23yo kid with a love for firearm, an individual with big ambitions to find a good job after graduation, and who actually want to do something for the students at ELAC.

for the LEO's who are more knowledgeable with firearms laws, please educate your fellow LEO colleagues.

If all charges are dropped he can persue a factual finding of innocence and have the arrest record destroyed... not expunged.... not sealed.... destroyed.

glockk9mm
04-30-2007, 6:21 PM
We need to work to bring more LEO's here to help with the education.

Forget the DOJ, ATF, DA's etc. It's the street cop that's going to make these arrest.

+1
It's the street cops that need to understand the oll laws since their the ones that assume it's an AW when they make the arrests.

Richie Rich
04-30-2007, 6:55 PM
This is not directed at the LEOs on this board, you are part of the solution, not the problem.

But this "how are they supposed to know every law on the books" crap is just that, crap...

Knowing what is against the law and what is not is a LEOs job, pure and simple.

We as "civilians" are not allowed to use ignorance of the law as an excuse, a LEO should not be allowed to make an arrest unless he is sure that what someone is doing is even against the law.

Nevermind the fact that all of this "assault wepon ban" crap is unconstitutional, Politicians, government employees and LEOs are playing fast and loose with other peoples lives.

You are taking a law abiding individual who may or may not have committed a "paperwork crime" and throwing him into the system where he gets to mingle with rapists, murderers and gang members.

Once he is in the system.
Job......GONE
Savings. GONE
Property. GONE
Reputation. GONE

And perhaps a couple of months later when a case goes to trial, they will find him not guilty, or realize that there wasn't even a crime comitted in the first place. "OOPS, our bad, you are free to go"

Leaving him to start over with nothing.

SICK.

1911_sfca
04-30-2007, 7:37 PM
Sorry folks, but you need to focus your energy on the people who MAKE the laws of this state, not those who enforce them.

The guns laws of California involving Assault Weapons (especially when you include case law) are so complicated that very few LEOs will know how to properly enforce them. LEOs are not lawyers, and even at that, most lawyers would not understand these same laws unless they specialize in firearms.

We, as the gun-sporting community, need to make it clear to legislators that the laws are unduly complicated and punitive, and they need to be corrected. Until then, do NOT blame the LEO for doing his job. Yes, a well-educated LEO who knows about OLLs and is allowed by SOP to exercise his discretion, may let you off the hook. Then again, we are starting to see the kind of disaster that can brew when absolutely horribly written laws are interpreted by LEOs and DAs that haven't honed their AW reading.. it's just not right.

As a sworn LEO, let me tell you that I have comments on record with the Cal DOJ at a public hearing (some of you were there), stating that the Learning Domain involving Assault Weapons was REMOVED from my basic training curriculum, and the firearms instructor, who has been teaching firearms for decades, stated that he was GLAD of this, because the laws are so complicated. That's a fact.

BLKTALN
04-30-2007, 7:45 PM
Sorry folks, but you need to focus your energy on the people who MAKE the laws of this state, not those who enforce them.

The guns laws of California involving Assault Weapons (especially when you include case law) are so complicated that very few LEOs will know how to properly enforce them. LEOs are not lawyers, and even at that, most lawyers would not understand these same laws unless they specialize in firearms.

We, as the gun-sporting community, need to make it clear to legislators that the laws are unduly complicated and punitive, and they need to be corrected. Until then, do NOT blame the LEO for doing his job. Yes, a well-educated LEO who knows about OLLs and is allowed by SOP to exercise his discretion, may let you off the hook. Then again, we are starting to see the kind of disaster that can brew when absolutely horribly written laws are interpreted by LEOs and DAs that haven't honed their AW reading.. it's just not right.

As a sworn LEO, let me tell you that I have comments on record with the Cal DOJ at a public hearing (some of you were there), stating that the Learning Domain involving Assault Weapons was REMOVED from my basic training curriculum, and the firearms instructor, who has been teaching firearms for decades, stated that he was GLAD of this, because the laws are so complicated. That's a fact.


agreed.

300
04-30-2007, 8:13 PM
As a former LEO, I can tell you that in my former "little slice of Heaven", persons arrested for firearms offenses almost always drew attention to themselves through other illegal behavior. "Honest Joes" rarely get hooked up for firearms violations alone.

Although I am no longer a LEO, I still have LEO friends, some at high levels. The general consensus is you get hooked if you are a. a dirtbag b. committed other crimes c. you pose a risk to yourself or others d. your behavior is so over the top you leave little choice to the LEO.

Of course I cannot speak for all as I am sure not all LEO's (mainly rookies) feel the same or may be filling their quota of felony arrests.

300
04-30-2007, 8:39 PM
I had a good friend who is a cop tell me once, "It's the police's job to enforce the law. It's a judge's job to interpret it." Basically, if there's a gray area and they think it might be illegal, you're getting charged. It's then the judge's job to determine whether or not you're innocent.

That is not entirely true. Your hands are tied in some cases such as domestic violence. Police officers generally have enormous discretion in most cases to arrest or not. A person's demeanor has alot to do with whether they go home or go to jail.
Police officers don't want to make bad arrests. If an arrest is made there are numerous levels of review. From the watch commander to the district attorney and ultimately a jury.
What officer would want to sit before a jury and explain that what he thought the defendant did was illegal but wasn't really sure, so he thought he would just bring it to you nice folks to decide?

Intimid8tor
04-30-2007, 9:05 PM
I appreciate the comments on this thread. I agree that it is not necessarily the street LEOs fault for the laws. That rest with the legislature and some of the upper echelons of the law enforcement community.

It is very disconcerting that people do get arrested for possible crimes and charges are subsequently dropped. This leaves the individual with defense costs, possible loss of job, branding, etc. However, the only way to change that is with the legislature. It's a tough road, but hopefully we will make it to the end.

spgk380
04-30-2007, 9:12 PM
I appreciate the comments on this thread. I agree that it is not necessarily the street LEOs fault for the laws. That rest with the legislature and some of the upper echelons of the law enforcement community.

It is very disconcerting that people do get arrested for possible crimes and charges are subsequently dropped. This leaves the individual with defense costs, possible loss of job, branding, etc. However, the only way to change that is with the legislature. It's a tough road, but hopefully we will make it to the end.

Its not just a problem with criminal cases. Look at all the intimidation that goes on by law firms and corporations against small business owners and individuals. If you have a LOT of money, all you have to do is serve somebody a notice and the potential future court costs alone are enough to get your way without EVER having your case heard by a judge or jury. Its a major, major problem with our civil justice system, and attempts have been made to make the looser reimburse the defendant for court and counsel costs, but little progress has been made.

Examples include all of the recent RIAA lawsuits, MPAA suits, and the constant barrage of cease-and-desist letters sent out by over-zealous corporations looking to defend their overly broad interpretation of their copyrights and trademarks from honest small business owners. Anybody remember the "Saks" thrift store owner who was sewed by Saks Fifth Avenue? Or the Federal Expresso coffee house who was sued by FedEx?

CalNRA
04-30-2007, 9:27 PM
This is not directed at the LEOs on this board, you are part of the solution, not the problem.

But this "how are they supposed to know every law on the books" crap is just that, crap...

Knowing what is against the law and what is not is a LEOs job, pure and simple.

We as "civilians" are not allowed to use ignorance of the law as an excuse, a LEO should not be allowed to make an arrest unless he is sure that what someone is doing is even against the law.

Nevermind the fact that all of this "assault wepon ban" crap is unconstitutional, Politicians, government employees and LEOs are playing fast and loose with other peoples lives.

You are taking a law abiding individual who may or may not have committed a "paperwork crime" and throwing him into the system where he gets to mingle with rapists, murderers and gang members.

Once he is in the system.
Job......GONE
Savings. GONE
Property. GONE
Reputation. GONE

And perhaps a couple of months later when a case goes to trial, they will find him not guilty, or realize that there wasn't even a crime comitted in the first place. "OOPS, our bad, you are free to go"

Leaving him to start over with nothing.

SICK.

exactly. the rule for civilians is, if you don't know the law, don't go into the grey area and simply don't do it.

For the cops it's arrest first and let the court sort it out.

Again, apparently it's no one's fault. Just so happened that the legislature passed badly worded laws, the government Agency DOJ just happened to make finding AWs a priority, and the PDs and Sheriffs just happened to not know the law and just start to throw people in jail. But legislators aren't the ones throwing people in jail. Well, an AW arrest is good photo op, easier than busting that cocaine dealer, no?

CalNRA
04-30-2007, 9:33 PM
As a former LEO, I can tell you that in my former "little slice of Heaven", persons arrested for firearms offenses almost always drew attention to themselves through other illegal behavior. "Honest Joes" rarely get hooked up for firearms violations alone.

Although I am no longer a LEO, I still have LEO friends, some at high levels. The general consensus is you get hooked if you are a. a dirtbag b. committed other crimes c. you pose a risk to yourself or others d. your behavior is so over the top you leave little choice to the LEO.

Of course I cannot speak for all as I am sure not all LEO's (mainly rookies) feel the same or may be filling their quota of felony arrests.

I'm disturbed by your point (d)

so what someone in the department think is over the top is a justification to bust? Well there goes BWO's innocence, I'm sure there are a few anti-gun cops around in the PD involved who don't think civies should have guns(well, he was mil reserve but who cares).

300
05-01-2007, 10:41 AM
I'm disturbed by your point (d)

so what someone in the department think is over the top is a justification to bust? Well there goes BWO's innocence, I'm sure there are a few anti-gun cops around in the PD involved who don't think civies should have guns(well, he was mil reserve but who cares).


CalNRA: I can see you are passionate about BWO's arrest, as am I. I am likeminded with everyone here in that I believe the Second Amendment means NO infringments on gun rights. Every LEO I know also feels the same way.

But you must understand that with BWO being a student leader as well as an MP comes certain risks. I am sure he has made many friends but apparently has an enemy or two. An enemy that apparently capitalized on the recent tragedy in Virginia.

BWO chose to post photos of himself holding firearms in an angry and threatening manner on his own website. Someone apparently alerted either school officials or the police. The school officials and/or police recognizing the extreme critism of both after the Virginia Tech shootings responded. They do not know BWO like you do. All they see is him posing like CHO before going on a school shooting rampage. BWO is not only a student himself but apparently a student union leader.

Can you imagine the fallout if they did nothing and BWO turned out to be the next copycat Virginia Tech shooter? Not knowing his character or frame of mind the police chose not to take such a risk.

IF it turns out all his OLL's are legally configured and no other crimes were committed then there is nothing to worry about.

My point is BWO drew attention to himself. In light of recent events, his behavior by posting those photos is "over the top". Should he have been arrested for that? No. I am not aware of a law preventing posting photos. Was it a good idea? It certainly played out well in the hands of his enemy who most likely "ratted" him out.

Surveyor
05-01-2007, 2:34 PM
I have experienced both sides of this.
I have been arrested by Davis cops while returning from target shooting in a legal area, because I had two loose rounds of .22 ammo in the same pouch as my broken down Feather AT-22. I also had several rolled up, shot up targets in the same backpack. I was transporting the gun on my bike, the way that they had told me to when I called them. I just F-ed up and didn't separate all of the ammo. The charges were later dropped by the D.A.

Then there was the time, years ago, when I was shooting my cruiser style Mossy 12 GA under the Stevensons Bridge outside of Davis. I was in my early twenties and I didn't know you couldn't shoot there, (no excuse, still my fault). After my buddy and I had used up all of our ammo, we put the gun away in my trunk and went back down under the bridge to smoke a jay.

As I was just about to take my second hit, I heard someone behind me say " OKAY GUYS, I'M GONNA NEED YOU TO SHOW ME YOU HANDS REEAAL SLOOW" in his command voice . It was the Solano County Sheriffs Dept :eek: . We never even heard them coming. The deputies checked us for weapons and told us that a bicyclist (from Davis, no doubt) had reported a shooting :rolleyes: .

We told them we didn't know that shooting there was illegal, in light of all the rusty shells lying around. One of the deps said that we should know that littering the ground with shells was illegal. I said, " Well, we havent left yet officer so we'd be more than happy to pick up our empties before we leave :D :o ".

The story ends with us picking up all of the shells, including the rusty ones, and the cops making us throw the joint waaaay into the poison oak. Then they sent us on our way. If they wanted to, they could've had us for possession of drugs with a firearm. Instead they said no harm no foul.

They did tell me that if we had still been shooting while we were smoking, we would have gone to jail. Since we were smart enough not to handle a firearm high, they let us go.

I always remember that when I think about my bad experiences with the Davis PD. If one of those deputies is reading this, I thank you.
Attitude really is everything.