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FastFinger
04-29-2012, 7:01 AM
Interesting recount of National Guardsman during the '92 riots. Not that we'll ever see a break down like that again...

Of the 53 people who were killed during the 1992 L.A. Riots -- 19 more than died in the 1965 Watts Riots -- two were Asian, and one of those deaths was due to a “friendly fire” incident in which two groups of Korean shop owners mistook the other for looters. Despite their shops and liquor stores being frequently singled out for arson and looting, the Korean immigrants made full use of their uniquely American Second Amendment rights, protecting themselves and their property during a multi-day breakdown in law and order.

His complete article. (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/27/la-riots-thin-veneer-of-civilization)

Jack L
04-29-2012, 7:17 AM
"Interesting recount of National Guardsman during the '92 riots. Not that we'll ever see a break down like that again..."

Indeed not........The next one will be much worse.

vantec08
04-29-2012, 8:11 AM
Good read. It validates what we already know - if you need an LEO in seconds, they are minutes away. But in this case, they were hours and even days away.

Left Coast Conservative
04-29-2012, 8:39 AM
Not that we'll ever see a break down like that again...

Most urban areas only have 3 day supply of food in the stores and local distribution centers. Once that is gone, you will see Katrina-like looting and rioting. We are only nine meal away from complete chaos.

Could it happen here? Sure. What about a truly devastating earthquake, tsunami, or a Zimmerman acquittal?

goober
04-29-2012, 8:42 AM
Good article.

Despite their shops and liquor stores being frequently singled out for arson and looting, the Korean immigrants made full use of their uniquely American Second Amendment rights, protecting themselves and their property during a multi-day breakdown in law and order. (emphasis mine)

"Despite" is a strange word to use here, though. I would think "Because" or similar would be more appropriate.

GrizzlyGuy
04-29-2012, 8:53 AM
I love his conclusion:

There are two valuable lessons from the 1992 Los Angeles riots. First, civilization has a very, very thin veneer that can break down suddenly and with little warning (there were sympathy riots up and down the West Coast and unrest in other urban areas). Second, when civilization does break down, law enforcement is virtually powerless for a time during which a judicious exercise of one’s Second Amendment rights may be all that stands between you and destructive anarchy.

Crzy2bealive
04-29-2012, 9:08 AM
Hahha like the ending also


Sent from the iPhone1000 using Tapatalk [rpo]

nizmo559
04-29-2012, 9:09 AM
Interesting recount of National Guardsman during the '92 riots. Not that we'll ever see a break down like that again...



His complete article. (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/27/la-riots-thin-veneer-of-civilization)

That was a great read

Suvorov
04-29-2012, 9:15 AM
Oh, come on guys....

What does a National Guard Soldier who witnessed the Riots first hand (with on magazine for his rifle or pistol I might add) know about disasters that your duly appointed (eh - I mean "elected") statist politician or typical "Bay Area type" does not. :confused:

As hard as we might try, there is a large percentage of the Kalifornia population that just will not and can not accept the fact that following a large seismic or man made event, big brother will not be there to protect them. So I fear that this soldiers words are only preaching to the choir.

Of course as you guys mentioned as the writer alluded to - the next time will be far worse as the social media and mass communication explosions will make it far easier for these mobs to organize and concentrate in areas where police or armed civilian presence is the weakest or non-existent.

And given the geological and political/demographic nature of California - all we have to do is wait. No tin-foil Mayan Calendar hat needed.

Demonicspire
04-29-2012, 9:42 AM
I don't think the consequences of the breakdown of our type of system make it any less appealing. Sure we're very dependent upon supply networks and the type, but the reason things have evolved this way is because it is the most efficient and profitable way to do so. Yes it is unfortunate when riots happen, but if severe breakdowns of order lead to man caused death under 100 people, we're doing pretty good. We don't live in somalia or anything, and for that we can be grateful.

Now, that being said, there is wisdom in preparing for the worst. Whether that be arming yourself against others, or having an emergency supply of food and water. I'm honestly not that worried, although I would agree "the natural state of man is war", people have remarkably low tolerance for complete anarchy, and generally prefer tyranny to it.

Honestly, post-Westphalia the institution of the state is remarkably stable.

ncrotalus
04-29-2012, 10:40 AM
thanks for sharing OP.

vantec08
04-29-2012, 10:59 AM
I don't think the consequences of the breakdown of our type of system make it any less appealing. Sure we're very dependent upon supply networks and the type, but the reason things have evolved this way is because it is the most efficient and profitable way to do so. Yes it is unfortunate when riots happen, but if severe breakdowns of order lead to man caused death under 100 people, we're doing pretty good. We don't live in somalia or anything, and for that we can be grateful.

Now, that being said, there is wisdom in preparing for the worst. Whether that be arming yourself against others, or having an emergency supply of food and water. I'm honestly not that worried, although I would agree "the natural state of man is war", people have remarkably low tolerance for complete anarchy, and generally prefer tyranny to it.

Honestly, post-Westphalia the institution of the state is remarkably stable.


The choice for tyranny over anarchy is when there is nothing left for the takers to take, including your life if you get in their way. Until then, its simply a matter of who can go the distance.

FastFinger
04-29-2012, 1:45 PM
Oh, come on guys....
As hard as we might try, there is a large percentage of the Kalifornia population that just will not and can not accept the fact that following a large seismic or man made event, big brother will not be there to protect them. So I fear that this soldiers words are only preaching to the choir.



Funny you mention that.. We were at a party last night - typical L.A. liberal crowd. One friend we were talking to is a 30-something true lefty, a prof at a local university. A good part of the evening he was complaining about how he wasn't getting the good assignments, his career stalled. It's clear to me that his dept. head, for whatever reason, just doesn't like him. But he just refuses to see that - he can not, or refuses to, understand that there are bad people, that some folks don't play by the rules and prey on the weak.

Sheep waiting to be shorn.

Anyway, back on topic... Here's another article regarding the riots (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/29/for-22-murder-victims-la-riots-leave-legacy-justice-eluded/)and how 22 of the deaths are still unsolved.

The War Wagon
04-29-2012, 2:05 PM
"Interesting recount of National Guardsman during the '92 riots. Not that we'll ever see a break down like that again..."

Indeed not........The next one will be much worse.

THIS!!!

Just wait until election night - no matter WHO wins. :o

MindBuilder
04-29-2012, 2:27 PM
My view of the stability of freedom and democracy in the US is drastically less since the new law allowing the military to imprison american citizens in the US for life without a jury or even a trial. See the NDAA. or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKaTxjxnYfE [youtube.com] This was passed by congress and signed into law by Obama.

If you heard of such a law being passed by Stalin or Hitler, you would see it as an appaling example of tyranny. Yet people hardly seemed to care about it when the US enacted the law. I don't know why people don't even seem concerned about it when I tell them. Do they not believe me or something? Do they think I'm exagerating? The law is real. I've read it myself on the Government Printing Office website. (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hr1540enr/html/BILLS-112hr1540enr.htm search for SEC. 1021 about 40% of the way down the page) Do people think it's a good idea? Would you like to have a trial if some president like Richard Nixon accused you of helping terrorists, or would you be ok with a military judge picked by Nixon to make the decision to put you in prison for life without a trial? How on earth could anyone vote for a politician that enacted a law for life in prison without jury or even trial during periods when the courts have enough capacity to hear the cases?

There is an exemption in the law for American citizens from the requirement that the military take them to Guantanamo Bay, but the exemption is only to the requirement, the military still has the OPTION to imprison you forever without trial. The law says it is only for suspected terrorists, but the law doesn't require proof or trial, so anyone including you can be considered a terrorist on flimsy evidence. It has been claimed that there is a requirement for one hearing before a judge, but the law specifies the denial of a trial, so what is the judge supposed to do? Perhaps verify probable cause if you're lucky. There are some weak, vague, provisions for congresional oversight, but Congress passed the law for imprisonment without trial, so trusting that oversight is trusting the untrustworthy. If you're not worried about this law or you think it's a good idea, please tell me why. It boggles my mind that Congress and Obama think it is a good idea to make it legal for the military to secretly snatch you in the middle of the night and imprison you for life without a jury or trial.

berg
04-29-2012, 3:02 PM
I haven't read the article yet but there was a discussion about these riots a while back on this site. It was revealed that the National Guard were not issued ammunition and that their presence was mostly a show a force with no way to really do much but intimidate rioters.

Someone here claimed they brought some of the guardsman ammunition they had on hand to distribute amongst themselves just in case.

Bill Carson
04-29-2012, 3:10 PM
They did not lock n load. Well I did for 5 days.

yellowfin
04-29-2012, 3:19 PM
My wife and I are out in Amish country now, so a lot of our food supply chain is independent of influences such as these--or at very least we'll have an extra day or two heads up. Might get some extra gas for the generator and more water purification stuff though.

asme
04-29-2012, 3:30 PM
Isn't the author the same Chuck Devore who ran for senate in 2010?

njineermike
04-29-2012, 3:43 PM
I haven't read the article yet but there was a discussion about these riots a while back on this site. It was revealed that the National Guard were not issued ammunition and that their presence was mostly a show a force with no way to really do much but intimidate rioters.

Someone here claimed they brought some of the guardsman ammunition they had on hand to distribute amongst themselves just in case.

I distinctly recall 2 specific NG shootings. Ne was a Guy shotbat them from across a street, the second where some guy attempted to run a roadblock. Net result was 2 dead idiots. Sounds like somebody had ammo.

Bill Carson
04-29-2012, 3:47 PM
Isn't the author the same Chuck Devore who ran for senate in 2010?

Yuep

dfletcher
04-29-2012, 3:54 PM
I lived in LA at the time, at the corner of Crescent Heights and Sunset. Great view of the city and watched "down there" burn. I had my own business, friends owned mini malls in neighborhoods that burned. They took insurance $$$ and invested elsewhere.

I had no trouble getting around during the curfew.

IIRC some idiot in an RX 7 tried to run a National Guard roadblock and he came in 2nd place to an M-60.

SilverTauron
04-29-2012, 4:11 PM
Some good lessons learned from this article.

One, you cannot depend on government for your security. Even in circumstances where police and military units are mobilized for duty , they may not be in a position to do much about local security due to retarded or seriously flawed rules of engagement. During a situation of unrest, seeing the National Guard outside the window won't mean much if they're marching with empty rifles or ROE that forbids lethal force.This can go hand in hand with unforseen logistical problems such as the ammunition being stored in an armory 200 miles away from the conflict area.

Two, don't go out during civil unrest. Even the police and government units trying to address the situation are not immune to disaster:blue on blue incidents such as the type avoided in the article can happen during *peacetime* situations. If the cops trying to bring order to things can get shot by their own side , it goes without saying ordinary Joes are in even deeper trouble. A concealed gun which accidentally shows at walmart during Rule of Law equals a routine check. During a mob violence situation said citizen could get mistaken for an armed agitator and be shot by the cops or military.

Drivedabizness
04-29-2012, 5:08 PM
Chuck gave up on Cali and moved to TX

Lifeon2whls
04-29-2012, 6:31 PM
THIS!!!

Just wait until election night - no matter WHO wins. :o

Yes....because we've had sooooo many problems with previous elections and there are so many gang members, etc just waiting for election night to go out and pillage.

ScottsBad
04-29-2012, 6:38 PM
I don't think the consequences of the breakdown of our type of system make it any less appealing. Sure we're very dependent upon supply networks and the type, but the reason things have evolved this way is because it is the most efficient and profitable way to do so. Yes it is unfortunate when riots happen, but if severe breakdowns of order lead to man caused death under 100 people, we're doing pretty good. We don't live in somalia or anything, and for that we can be grateful.

Now, that being said, there is wisdom in preparing for the worst. Whether that be arming yourself against others, or having an emergency supply of food and water. I'm honestly not that worried, although I would agree "the natural state of man is war", people have remarkably low tolerance for complete anarchy, and generally prefer tyranny to it.

Honestly, post-Westphalia the institution of the state is remarkably stable.

1. I'm not sure what you are arguing, but if you think that the destruction and death of the King riots was acceptable then you missed the point. If there is a serious breakdown, not a relatively small community that is pissed off, but a lack of food, water and shelter for potentially millions, 100 deaths will be counted as a very good day.

2. I'm sure you saw how ineffective the government entities were in the Katrina disaster. No food, or water in LA? Uh, I think the result would be unfathomably ugly. During Katrina the flooding kept the bad guys from really causing havoc.

3. Maybe people have a low tolerance for anarchy when they've got their IPADs, three meals, water and security, but take that away and things will get very brutal.

4. So if you are not worried that's fine, I don't care, but human history is full of really ugly periods. And if there is no change in direction we will be facing a financial collapse in less than 15 years (according to the Congressional Budget Office). The LA riots times 1000, with no food on top of it.

As for tyranny, isn't that when Mao killed 30 million, Stalin killed millions, Hitler millions more, and on and on. I find it hard to believe that Americans would accept tyranny. As ignorant as Americans have become I still find it hard to believe that Americans will sit down to tyranny.

ScottsBad
04-29-2012, 6:58 PM
Some good lessons learned from this article.

Two, don't go out during civil unrest. Even the police and government units trying to address the situation are not immune to disaster:blue on blue incidents such as the type avoided in the article can happen during *peacetime* situations. If the cops trying to bring order to things can get shot by their own side , it goes without saying ordinary Joes are in even deeper trouble. A concealed gun which accidentally shows at walmart during Rule of Law equals a routine check. During a mob violence situation said citizen could get mistaken for an armed agitator and be shot by the cops or military.

I'm with you on most of what you said, but if you are out during civil unrest, its because you have to be. Either food, water, protection of loved ones, or evacuation to safety is your goal, not window shopping. In which case you have to be armed to protect yourself. If there is enough law enforcement around to shoot you for being armed then that is something to consider, maybe you should stay put and let them protect you.

It is a tough call. But during the King riots law enforcement didn't stop a lot of people from getting killed by weapons which LEs couldn't stop. Seems that having a firearms during WROL is almost a necessity.

SilverTauron
04-29-2012, 7:18 PM
I'm with you on most of what you said, but if you are out during civil unrest, its because you have to be. Either food, water, protection of loved ones, or evacuation to safety is your goal, not window shopping. In which case you have to be armed to protect yourself. If there is enough law enforcement around to shoot you for being armed then that is something to consider, maybe you should stay put and let them protect you.

It is a tough call. But during the King riots law enforcement didn't stop a lot of people from getting killed by weapons which LEs couldn't stop. Seems that having a firearms during WROL is almost a necessity.

My post was directed in the context of "unnecessary " trips out the door. If there's unrest going on outside your doorstep, its best to stay in and hole up versus trying to cross the mob to reach "safety". Remember, even in the internet age information on what's safe and what isn't can be fickle and unreliable. You know what's at home because you live there. You don't know whether the designated government "safe zone" really is safe until you risk your hide to get there. As the folks in Katrina discovered, what the government calls "safe" and what is genuinely a secure place for you and yours to bed down can be galactic opposites of each other.

For all the talk about WROL, what ive discovered in my own research on the matter is that its a temporary condition. Sooner or later someone's gonna start calling the shots, be it a neighborhood militia or the same government that cut and ran when things got ugly. "Sooner or later " usually comes about 14 or so days after D day. There are times today I don't visit the local grocery store for 14 days, and I have a stash of water saved up in the event times really get interesting.

kcbrown
04-29-2012, 9:17 PM
As for tyranny, isn't that when Mao killed 30 million, Stalin killed millions, Hitler millions more, and on and on. I find it hard to believe that Americans would accept tyranny. As ignorant as Americans have become I still find it hard to believe that Americans will sit down to tyranny.

Why? I know of no country on this earth, especially since the advent of modern military weaponry, where the people rose up and overthrew the sitting government for mass killings of segments of the population. What in the world makes you think people in the U.S. are so uniquely special that, unlike all the other people in history that have found themselves in similar situations, they won't simply sit idly by and watch it happen to "those people", where "those people" is some group that the government has singled out for execution?

That's how governments do it, you know: they define a segment of the population and convince the people that said segment is "bad" or "the enemy" in some way, and then take action against that segment. And because the segment is "evil", not enough people care about it. Furthermore, those who the government wants to target but who aren't actually part of the group in question are also accused of association with the group in question. This gives the government a "cover" to take out the people in question.

Even in the event that an effort to isolate the target group isn't taken first, I very much doubt the people of the U.S. would actually rise up against the government. Those that tried would quickly be branded "terrorists" and the government would engage in a massive disinformation campaign against those people.


This country realizes that there is no longer any effective check against tyranny. Witness the mass acquiescence to the security checkpoint nonsense at airports. People understand that there is nothing of consequence they can do to stop it. That's because the government has all the real guns, and any effort to take that freedom back through means other than the ineffective ones approved by the government will result in nothing but the deaths of those who try. Never in the history of the world has the disparity of force between governments and the governed been so great.

SWalt
04-29-2012, 11:50 PM
I'm just glad I'm the type to pay attention to issues and listens to news. I was suppose to be at Flower and Washington for class that night at 6pm. Heard the verdict when it came down that afternoon and thought "hmmmmm...perhaps its not a good idea to be blond white guy in south central tonight" Was interesting to see all the burnt buildings 2 or 3 weeks after. Never had a problem with anyone in that area before or after.

But..it is just a veneer of safety. If the SHTF really happens, not much you can do about it other than be being prepared. Things will be restored after 2 or 3 weeks IMO. Not fully but enough to calm the masses. Short of a nuclear war, Yellowstone erupting or asteroid strike, don't think there is a need to worry too much.

Bill Carson
04-30-2012, 12:04 AM
In 1992 I had 1 gun and about 200 rounds of ammo and food for probably 3 days. Now I have 5 guns and about 5000 rounds of ammo and supplies for about 10 days and I do not live or work anywhere near where there would be rioting.

Mulay El Raisuli
04-30-2012, 9:41 AM
"Interesting recount of National Guardsman during the '92 riots. Not that we'll ever see a break down like that again..."

Indeed not........The next one will be much worse.


Quite likely.


Most urban areas only have 3 day supply of food in the stores and local distribution centers. Once that is gone, you will see Katrina-like looting and rioting. We are only nine meal away from complete chaos.

Could it happen here? Sure. What about a truly devastating earthquake, tsunami, or a Zimmerman acquittal?


Or, more likely, a dismissal?

There doesn't seem to be a real case against Zimmerman. The "special" attention being lavished on the matter notwithstanding, I see an outright dismissal just about the time the weather gets warm. I.E., riot season.

And isn't the GOP Convention being held in Fla this time around? Think the proximity might make a difference?


The Raisuli

Wherryj
04-30-2012, 9:50 AM
I don't think the consequences of the breakdown of our type of system make it any less appealing. Sure we're very dependent upon supply networks and the type, but the reason things have evolved this way is because it is the most efficient and profitable way to do so. Yes it is unfortunate when riots happen, but if severe breakdowns of order lead to man caused death under 100 people, we're doing pretty good. We don't live in somalia or anything, and for that we can be grateful.

Now, that being said, there is wisdom in preparing for the worst. Whether that be arming yourself against others, or having an emergency supply of food and water. I'm honestly not that worried, although I would agree "the natural state of man is war", people have remarkably low tolerance for complete anarchy, and generally prefer tyranny to it.

Honestly, post-Westphalia the institution of the state is remarkably stable.

The official death toll may have been under 100, but I've seen reports that the injury toll was over 2,000. There isn't a breakdown of injuries (hang nail from improper throwing technique, permanent loss of limb/sense but not quite dead), but that still seems to show that we MAY be better than Somalia, but still have a LONG way to go.

Jack L
04-30-2012, 10:35 AM
In 1992 I had 1 gun and about 200 rounds of ammo and food for probably 3 days. Now I have 5 guns and about 5000 rounds of ammo and supplies for about 10 days and I do not live or work anywhere near where there would be rioting.



In 92' you see the Korean shop owners with 9mm handguns and shotguns. Now most of them and us have AR's, AK's and many other rifles plus sniper rifles. The general public has more weapons and many of us are way better educated and trained in using them. I can only assume when SHTF in the LA basin, it will be a very different scenario than 92'. LEO's will get the heck out of the way as it's not their job to control civil unrest on a large scale. By the time the National Guard shows up with ammo, it may look more like a civil war battlefield glowing against the night fires and explosions.

What was once fiction based in apocalyptic movies about the future in LA, now seems more like reality based if you do the math.

CCWFacts
04-30-2012, 10:23 PM
Indeed not........The next one will be much worse.

Not in LA. Things have changed here. I'm sure there will be riots sooner or later but not of the same scale as the 1992 riots. The area along Robertson where many places burned is now inhabited by Orthodox Jews. Koreatown is much safer after dark than it was in 1992, and will not have the same kind of riots.

Flash mob type of things? Sure, it will happen at some point. Some riots in Compton? Maybe. Full-scale 1992-style riots? I don't think it will happen here.

Now, other cities in other parts of the country could be quite different.

Capybara
04-30-2012, 11:07 PM
It is amusing that everyone fears riots from civil unrest. What do you think the hundreds of thousands of gang members who already own large parts of LA will be doing right after the 9.0 quake hits? As a life long Californian, the "Big One" is a much more concrete example of what people should be fearing over race riots.

When the Big One hits LA, the city will look like a post-apocalyptic hell with many dead, widespread looting and rioting and those gang bangers who survive are going to quickly re-organize and mobilize to take advantage of the biggest chunks of what is left as quickly as they can.

Actually, where I live, the 'burbs, is going to be the most dangerous because if LA is leveled or large portions of it, where are food, water and shelter going to be easily accessible? The suburbs of LA, with light stucco, mostly single story buildings, will be where the action is, LA-proper will be such a horrendous mess that I think survivors will do anything to get out of it.

I shot a series of films in East LA in 2010, with CHP and LAPD armed escort and hanging with all of those officers educated me to who really runs and owns East LA, Boyle Heights, Silverlake, etc. It's not the police, that's for sure. The police just keep order during the day. After 7:00 PM, it is a free-for all and the cops know that they are seriously outmanned and outgunned by the gangs. They admit it. What's going to happen when all of those gangs decide to take advantage after chaos envelopes the city?

vantec08
05-01-2012, 1:33 AM
Agree, Capybara. The takers will take, and kill any interference. The suburbs contain what they want. It is indeed more likely the Big One or similar disaster will precipitate the action, but from what I am seeing concerning an ongoing case from FL we might just get surprised.

Jack L
05-01-2012, 7:03 AM
Agree, Capybara. The takers will take, and kill any interference. The suburbs contain what they want. It is indeed more likely the Big One or similar disaster will precipitate the action, but from what I am seeing concerning an ongoing case from FL we might just get surprised.



Agreed, New Orleans post Katrina on steroids. Until, when/if the military gets control of the situation, it will be gnarly to say the least. In an earthquake scenario the power would be off. Just think about no lights or alarms at night with the marauders on the lose. God help those that are caught in the melee.

Sutcliffe
05-01-2012, 7:22 AM
I haven't read the article yet but there was a discussion about these riots a while back on this site. It was revealed that the National Guard were not issued ammunition and that their presence was mostly a show a force with no way to really do much but intimidate rioters.

Someone here claimed they brought some of the guardsman ammunition they had on hand to distribute amongst themselves just in case.

I have a brother who was deployed for that and they were specifically not given ammo. There were several squad leaders and Sgt.'s that my brother said had their own supply that they issued to their men.

frankDmole
05-01-2012, 7:57 AM
Great article, I liked the ending too.

SilverTauron
05-01-2012, 7:58 AM
Fernando Aguirre wrote a very good book on the topic.He lived in Argentina during that nations economic collapse.Once upon a time the Agrentine economy was so prosperous they would travel to America for tourism because their currency was strong against the dollar.Not anymore,thanks to government mismanagement,liberal policies favoring criminals and illegal immigration,and excessive debt.

One really should read his book & blog for details,but the short version of his experiences living in a society which is melting down can be summed up thus:One,don't go anywhere during the riots.When the Argentine Government collapsed and the president literally abandoned office,Buenos Aires was without rule of law for two weeks.Medical care was overwhelmed & security was non-exisent.

Two,refine your pistol skills.Even though Argentina had no government for 14 odd days,by no means could an ordinary Joe just walk down main street with an AK.The scary part isn't during the riots and crizes,but going about your daily life in the repressive aftermath.Police and military units in that situation will do what they are told,regardless if the orders are legal or not.Think curfews,'gun free zones',and a temporary suspension of the Constitution and civil Rights,including the 2nd Amendment for the US.In all that mess,you still have to take the kids to school(if its open),the girlfriend still needs a ride to work,and you still have to pay your bills,file your taxes,and change your oil.The rioting and civil unrest may be over,but petty robbery & street crime won't end nearly as fast.If Argentina is a good example,then the media globally is a corrupt enterprise,as during the unrest they would run stories praising the government for things it in real life screwed up royally or never did.

kcbrown
05-01-2012, 8:30 AM
If Argentina is a good example,then the media globally is a corrupt enterprise,as during the unrest they would run stories praising the government for things it in real life screwed up royally or never did.

The media is a globally and thoroughly corrupt enterprise. What else do you expect from an entity which wields power without consequence to itself?

gunsandrockets
05-02-2012, 12:55 AM
Most urban areas only have 3 day supply of food in the stores and local distribution centers. Once that is gone, you will see Katrina-like looting and rioting. We are only nine meal away from complete chaos.

Could it happen here? Sure. What about a truly devastating earthquake, tsunami, or a Zimmerman acquittal?

The contrast between the actual legal situation and the expectations of many Black Americans is so great, I think a 1992 type riot is a distinct possibility. That being the case, what is the timeline for the Zimmerman prosecution? What is the earliest date that Zimmerman could get a dismissal during the SYG preliminary hearing?

HKDoc
05-02-2012, 12:36 PM
My liberal friends ask me why it is important to own a firearm for self defense. Simple answer is LA riots....

vantec08
05-02-2012, 1:25 PM
My liberal friends ask me why it is important to own a firearm for self defense. Simple answer is LA riots....


When the Liberal Librarian sis-in-law asked me that, I provided the usual answers we do. Now when it comes up, I tell her cause its more cool than pulling wings off of flies.

Kukuforguns
05-02-2012, 2:28 PM
The contrast between the actual legal situation and the expectations of many Black Americans is so great, I think a 1992 type riot is a distinct possibility. That being the case, what is the timeline for the Zimmerman prosecution? What is the earliest date that Zimmerman could get a dismissal during the SYG preliminary hearing?

As set forth below, Zimmerman could be found to be immune from criminal prosecution and civil action as soon as Monday May 8, 2012.

Section 776.032, Florida Statutes, provides in relevant part:
A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force . . .
Section 776.012 provides:
Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felonyIn 2010 the Florida Supreme Court held in Dennis v. Florida (http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/2010/sc09-941.pdf) that section 776.032 allows a criminal defendant to file a pre-trial motion to dismiss. Where such a motion is filed, there is a hearing during which the trial court considers any factual disputes and determines whether the defendant has established by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant reasonably believed the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily injury.

Florida Rule of Criminal Procedure 3.190 sets out procedures for the filing and consideration of a motion to dismiss in a criminal proceeding:
(a) In General. Every pretrial motion and pleading in response to a motion shall be in writing and signed by the party making the motion or the attorney for the party. . . .
(b) Motion to Dismiss; Grounds. All defenses available to a defendant by plea, other than not guilty, shall be made only by motion to dismiss the indictment or information, whether the same shall relate to matters of form, substance, former acquittal, former jeopardy, or any other defense.
(c) Time for Moving to Dismiss. Unless the court grants further time, the defendant shall move to dismiss the indictment or information either before or at arraignment. The court in its discretion may permit the defendant to plead and thereafter to file a motion to dismiss at a time to be set by the court. Except for objections based on fundamental grounds, every ground for a motion to dismiss that is not presented by a motion to dismiss within the time hereinabove provided shall be considered waived.
Accordingly, the safest route for Zimmerman's attorneys would be to file a motion to dismiss at or before Zimmerman's arraignment. They could file the motion after the arraignment, but it appears the judge has discretion not to entertain such a motion.

The docket for Florida's action against Zimmerman is a matter of public record and can be seen here (http://seminoleclerk.org/CriminalDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=592012CF001083A). The docket indicates that Zimmerman's arraignment currently is set for May 8, 2012. I'm not familiar with Florida law, but it appears that the motion could be filed and heard on the same day. Given the notoriety of this case, I would not be surprised if the prosecution requests a hearing date on the immunity hearing after the arraignment. Again, I'm not familiar with Florida law so I don't want to speculate too much.

Mulay El Raisuli
05-03-2012, 5:18 AM
Fernando Aguirre wrote a very good book on the topic.He lived in Argentina during that nations economic collapse.Once upon a time the Agrentine economy was so prosperous they would travel to America for tourism because their currency was strong against the dollar.Not anymore,thanks to government mismanagement,liberal policies favoring criminals and illegal immigration,and excessive debt.

One really should read his book & blog for details,but the short version of his experiences living in a society which is melting down can be summed up thus:One,don't go anywhere during the riots.When the Argentine Government collapsed and the president literally abandoned office,Buenos Aires was without rule of law for two weeks.Medical care was overwhelmed & security was non-exisent.

Two,refine your pistol skills.Even though Argentina had no government for 14 odd days,by no means could an ordinary Joe just walk down main street with an AK.The scary part isn't during the riots and crizes,but going about your daily life in the repressive aftermath.Police and military units in that situation will do what they are told,regardless if the orders are legal or not.Think curfews,'gun free zones',and a temporary suspension of the Constitution and civil Rights,including the 2nd Amendment for the US.In all that mess,you still have to take the kids to school(if its open),the girlfriend still needs a ride to work,and you still have to pay your bills,file your taxes,and change your oil.The rioting and civil unrest may be over,but petty robbery & street crime won't end nearly as fast.If Argentina is a good example,then the media globally is a corrupt enterprise,as during the unrest they would run stories praising the government for things it in real life screwed up royally or never did.


Yeah, no one really thinks about that part. Thanks to you, now I do.


As set forth below, Zimmerman could be found to be immune from criminal prosecution and civil action as soon as Monday May 8, 2012.

<snip>




In any event, it isn't going to be a long wait.


The Raisuli

Phil Ossiferz Stone
05-03-2012, 6:58 PM
What *are* the laws in our great state regarding mob violence? We've seen black lynch mobs teeing off on white tourists and passers-by; we've seen the OWS trashing the Mission district in SF... what can a CCW holder legally do if he is assaulted by twenty-thirty idiots high on adrenaline? Come to think of it, what can I do if they come and start trashing my apartment complex? Hide indoors and let them get away with it...?

vantec08
05-04-2012, 12:34 AM
What *are* the laws in our great state regarding mob violence? We've seen black lynch mobs teeing off on white tourists and passers-by; we've seen the OWS trashing the Mission district in SF... what can a CCW holder legally do if he is assaulted by twenty-thirty idiots high on adrenaline? Come to think of it, what can I do if they come and start trashing my apartment complex? Hide indoors and let them get away with it...?



You pity the poor dears because _________________ (fill in the blank)

Jack L
05-04-2012, 7:07 AM
Yeah, no one really thinks about that part. Thanks to you, now I do.





In any event, it isn't going to be a long wait.


The Raisuli

During the SF 1906' earthquake aftermath and the 1930's Long Beach earthquake, military 'shot on site' both looters and criminal activity. No idea what local LE was doing.... but not enough if they had to call in the military.

yellowfin
05-04-2012, 7:34 AM
What *are* the laws in our great state regarding mob violence? We've seen black lynch mobs teeing off on white tourists and passers-by; we've seen the OWS trashing the Mission district in SF... what can a CCW holder legally do if he is assaulted by twenty-thirty idiots high on adrenaline? Come to think of it, what can I do if they come and start trashing my apartment complex? Hide indoors and let them get away with it...?If you're armed, it's a question of how quickly they decide they're not so brave anymore.

johnny_22
05-04-2012, 7:35 AM
According to the SJ Mercury News, gangs are getting ready for a Saturday grudge match.

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_20542758/san-jose-officials-worry-about-combination-spike-gang?IADID

I am staying out of San Jose this weekend.

vantec08
05-04-2012, 8:17 AM
People are no longer rolling over and playing dead at the drop of the race card, or the class card, or the anything card. They are fighting back against violent thuggery from wherever it comes - skinheads, ghetto, drug underworld etc. Its past time for the violent of society to realize they are taking a risk that might cost them more that they are willing to pay.

Lifeon2whls
05-04-2012, 9:04 AM
I shot a series of films in East LA in 2010, with CHP and LAPD armed escort and hanging with all of those officers educated me to who really runs and owns East LA, Boyle Heights, Silverlake, etc. It's not the police, that's for sure. The police just keep order during the day. After 7:00 PM, it is a free-for all and the cops know that they are seriously outmanned and outgunned by the gangs. They admit it. What's going to happen when all of those gangs decide to take advantage after chaos envelopes the city?

I like how you describe these areas like they are war zones. Having grown up in this city and being a 30 something year old and gone through the riots, northridge quakes and having gone to public school with the same people who inhabit the areas you reference above...you learn that as long as you don't make yourself stick out and be a target, you wont be one. I've spent plenty of time in those areas, especially Silverlake, at night and never had any issues...actually I live in a gang infested area and walk nightly through it. I've actually had more problems in better areas of the city because my guard was down and I wasn't expecting anything to happen.

The point is, the police are outgunned no matter where they go. Most people on this forum have access to more firepower than the police carry...we simply make different choices when it comes to the gang members who also have guns. When all is said and done though and the SHTF, the Police will be stuck in the middle of two sides just like they were in '92

bigger hammer
05-04-2012, 9:15 AM
... there was a discussion about these riots a while back on this site. It was revealed that the National Guard were not issued ammunition and that their presence was mostly a show a force with no way to really do much but intimidate rioters.

This is one of those urban legends that has a small element of truth to it but after that, it's fiction.

The fact is that the NG marshaled at a city on the edge of LA and as they were deploying one of them said, "Sarge, are we going to get issued ammo?" Their commander had sent them to the location and had just "forgotten" to bring it along. A small convoy was dispatched to a local armory, they picked up they ammo and it was dispersed to the Guardsmen before they were deployed from the marshalling point just a few hours after they had originally planned to pull out. That commander was later "allowed" to retire in lieu of discipline.

Capybara
05-04-2012, 10:41 AM
I've gone through all of the events you have, but not in downtown. Ask any LA cop, parts of east LA are a war zone. To me, the ability to drive for blocks and blocks with no writing on any sign or building in English, streetwalkers, graffiti, razor wire, trash and a police station with security and fortifications that look as if the place is situated in Kandahar Province denotes war zone. There is also that body count issue and how many times while working down there I see the Coroners Unit on the street.

I am sure that there is truth in what you are saying, I am a white guy with a mixed film crew in east LA, stopping traffic, big expensive cameras, grip gear, etc. Kind of sticking out like a sore thumb.

OTOH, I have been shooting with just one other person, very low key, just me and the other person on one of the bridges over the LA River into east LA and we were hassled and chased twice by gang bangers who wanted to liberate our camera.

I agree with you about the cops being outgunned but it can be particularly bad in LA. In LA, if you have enough money and the right connections, you can buy just about ANY weapon, not just full auto small arms, I am talking RPGs, rocket launchers, hand grenades, you name it (I am friends with two sheriffs who have shared pictures and stories). I mean, LA is the land of excess, right?

You are right, a lot of it depends on what you look like and how you present yourself. But I have been witness to random gang violence in east LA on more than one occasion, a lot of them have no qualms about killing or injuring anyone whenever they feel like it.

My point was really more about the opportunities that will be present for the well organized gangs in LA to take advantage of the situation because law enforcement, even the military, are going to be at a decided logistical disadvantage and can't be everywhere, all of the time. The gangs will be on home turf and will take whatever they want from whomever happens to be in their way.

I like how you describe these areas like they are war zones. Having grown up in this city and being a 30 something year old and gone through the riots, northridge quakes and having gone to public school with the same people who inhabit the areas you reference above...you learn that as long as you don't make yourself stick out and be a target, you wont be one. I've spent plenty of time in those areas, especially Silverlake, at night and never had any issues...actually I live in a gang infested area and walk nightly through it. I've actually had more problems in better areas of the city because my guard was down and I wasn't expecting anything to happen.

The point is, the police are outgunned no matter where they go. Most people on this forum have access to more firepower than the police carry...we simply make different choices when it comes to the gang members who also have guns. When all is said and done though and the SHTF, the Police will be stuck in the middle of two sides just like they were in '92

goober
05-04-2012, 11:37 AM
It is amusing that everyone fears riots from civil unrest. What do you think the hundreds of thousands of gang members who already own large parts of LA will be doing right after the 9.0 quake hits?
...
What's going to happen when all of those gangs decide to take advantage after chaos envelopes the city?

V-OYKd8SVrI

tpuig
05-04-2012, 12:30 PM
Could you provide a source for this? Where did you get your info? Thanks


This is one of those urban legends that has a small element of truth to it but after that, it's fiction.

The fact is that the NG marshaled at a city on the edge of LA and as they were deploying one of them said, "Sarge, are we going to get issued ammo?" Their commander had sent them to the location and had just "forgotten" to bring it along. A small convoy was dispatched to a local armory, they picked up they ammo and it was dispersed to the Guardsmen before they were deployed from the marshalling point just a few hours after they had originally planned to pull out. That commander was later "allowed" to retire in lieu of discipline.

jwkincal
05-04-2012, 2:19 PM
Wikipedia corroborates BH's account, although the article does indicate that a cite is needed.

There are news items (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=itkgAAAAIBAJ&pg=1888,183703) which clearly indicate that those fellas had ammo and used it.

Write Winger
05-04-2012, 2:19 PM
Phil, read over CA Penal Code 195-197. Last line of 197 should answer your question.

bigger hammer
05-04-2012, 2:32 PM
Could you provide a source for this? Where did you get your info? Thanks

I was a police officer on duty, in Culver City, at the Fox Hills Mall, one of the marshalling areas for the first NG units to arrive in LA. When the order was given for the Guardsmen to "mount up" and they started piling into their vehicles, I was standing near the military vehicle (I think it was a six-by) when the Guardsman asked his sergeant the question, I over heard it. Not something I'll ever forget.

I "rode shotgun" in the police unit that escorted the convoy to the armory at the Los Alamitos Naval Air Station, to pick up their ammo and then escorted them back to Culver City. The bit about the NG commander being "allowed to retire" was from new stories circulated at the time, but I don't have a citation for that. I can probably Google it but then so can anyone else.

tpuig
05-05-2012, 9:53 AM
Cool, thanks. I probably could have worded that better, no offense intended. I've spoken with a number of folks who have varying accounts of the riots, but after a little digging it's usually hearsay. We might have rubbed elbows.

I was in an MP unit in the NG, and we got the call. Even though they had my pager and work number, my unit only left four messages on my home machine. I first saw what was happening on the 11pm news and decided to check in. Had to head home to my house in San Francisco and high tail it to the unit. Grabbed my shotgun, 1911 and gear bag and headed out. Once at the armory I put those in the vault and grabbed my M16. We didn't get ammo, but inside my bag were two loaded M16 mags. Those went into my cargo pocket. Wasn't sure what we'd run into but I rather have a rifle than a club.

The trucks and buses left and we headed down 101, making a couple stops. I remember the freeways being almost completely empty, which I had never seen in my life. We finally got to Los Alamitos where I suspect a donut vendor could have paid for all his great grand childrens future college educations. I've never seen a bigger collection of LEO.

I was in the HQ and occasionally had to give a briefing. Some very interesting conversations and personalities in there. ;-) I still have my "LA Triathalon, Shoot, Loot and Scoot" t shirt.






I was a police officer on duty, in Culver City, at the Fox Hills Mall, one of the marshalling areas for the first NG units to arrive in LA. When the order was given for the Guardsmen to "mount up" and they started piling into their vehicles, I was standing near the military vehicle (I think it was a six-by) when the Guardsman asked his sergeant the question, I over heard it. Not something I'll ever forget.

I "rode shotgun" in the police unit that escorted the convoy to the armory at the Los Alamitos Naval Air Station, to pick up their ammo and then escorted them back to Culver City. The bit about the NG commander being "allowed to retire" was from new stories circulated at the time, but I don't have a citation for that. I can probably Google it but then so can anyone else.