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NorCalK9.com
04-28-2012, 9:41 PM
I dont wanna hear your BS that you think, or that you might be too whimpy to handle the snappiness.

I own a couple pistols in .40 such as glock23 and glock27. Im hearing alot of people bashing this round. Why? Is it just ignorance or is it true its barely more than a 9mm?
I love my .40's but with my vrother being a cissy lala he is, i'm wondering if I should sell or trade mine as well.

Again I dont care what you prefer I care about the true ballistics of thevround and tissue damage compared to 9mm and 45acp. Thanks guys.
And I googled the crap out of this but find stuff that isnt to informative.

Tlc.norcal
04-28-2012, 9:44 PM
Good question. I'm all ears on this as well. Been really drooling on the H&K USP as my next conquest and trying to find a reason not to.

Lead Waster
04-28-2012, 9:51 PM
To be honest, I don't think anyone really knows, otherwise there might be a more clear cut answer. I just started DROS on a Glock 23 this morning, my first .40. Not because of ballistics or stopping power or anything, but because my friend brought his G23 to the range one day and I shot really well with it. So why wouldn't I want a gun I shoot well with, regardless of caliber! another reason is that, since I reload, I scrounge a lot of brass and I always get a bunch of .40 cases mixed in with my 9mm, why let them go to waste? :p I knew the second I shot that G23, that I was going to buy one. On my next Midway purchase that I made after that range session, I bought .40 S&W dies for my Dillon.


But, good luck in finding out the "truth" about .40 vs 9 vs .45, I personally don't think there is an absolute answer because all shooters are different, and all "targets" are different too. But I think the same old arguments will pop up no matter how much we plead for only cold hard facts.

IronCobra
04-28-2012, 9:57 PM
.40 S&W is a proven and effective round. 1000s of departments around the country issue it and there are 100s of cases where it has saved officers lives.

Ballistic data only goes so far IMO. Reliability, shot placement, rate of fire over caliber. A 500 mag is useless if you miss the target. If you can put an entire mag rapidly into the chest and then reload and do it again quickly - you'll probably make it even if you only have a .22

2 chest 1 head from 9mm, .40 or .45 should take down just about anyone except the incredible hulk

So my depending on what you want the round for (I'm assuming SD and not just plinking)
My suggestion would be to carry/load what you can shoot the best out of 9mm, .40 or .45

digdug74
04-28-2012, 10:13 PM
Great caliber. In it's 135grn JHP +p loading, it gets up there into .357 mag 125grn territory which was one of the best man stoppers of all time. You can also go heavy with 180grn rounds which will give you more penetration. Overall, a very versatile and effective self defense round which is why so many agencies use it.

IVth Horseman
04-28-2012, 10:14 PM
People like to bash anything that doesn't fit in with thier "caliber agenda". It's easier to put down the .40 caliber than to trade in all your 9,45,357 etc. It's all personal preference, and the excessive recoil argument is preposterous. PS I shoot just about every common pistol caliber and enjoy them all.

locosway
04-28-2012, 10:24 PM
I dont wanna hear your BS that you think, or that you might be too panzy to handle the snappiness.

I own a couple pistols in .40 such as glock23 and glock27. Im hearing alot of people bashing this round. Why? Is it just ignorance or is it true its barely more than a 9mm?
I love my .40's but with my vrother being a cissy lala he is, i'm wondering if I should sell or trade mine as well.

Again I dont care what you prefer I care about the true ballistics of thevround and tissue damage compared to 9mm and 45acp. Thanks guys.
And I googled the crap out of this but find stuff that isnt to informative.

Go look up the history of the 10mm and then the .40 S&W and draw your own conclusions.

If you like the .40, good for you. I'll stay away.

NorCalK9.com
04-28-2012, 10:24 PM
Thank you guys, I quite enjoy my .40's I practice/plink almost everyday in the back yard. Im not a big guy, 5'11 180lbs and I dont have an issue with the recoil, and I find it funny when these big guys say the recoil is too snappy.
Im keeping my .40s and thank you guys for giving me intelligent explanations.

locosway
04-28-2012, 10:25 PM
Thank you guys, I quite enjoy my .40's I practice/plink almost everyday in the back yard. Im not a big guy, 5'11 180lbs and I dont have an issue with the recoil, and I find it funny when these big guys say the recoil is too snappy.
Im keeping my .40s and thank you guys for giving me intelligent explanations.

Do some real shooting, take a class, do some timed drills, and then let us know how much faster you are with your .40 instead of a 9mm. ;)

NorCalK9.com
04-28-2012, 10:28 PM
@locos
Take your own advice and takeba class and see how much faster you are with a .22
And dont take that as me being an @ss I truly mean it.

locosway
04-28-2012, 10:30 PM
@locos
Take your own advice and takeba class and see how much faster you are with a .22
And dont take that as me being an @ss I truly mean it.

Your comparison was between a .40 and a 9mm. The 9mm will be faster, and offers the same "stopping power" as the .40. There's no evidence that suggests the .40, .45, or 9mm is better at stopping a threat. Shot placement and number of shots on target are key. The 9mm generally facilitates faster shots on target and larger capacity magazines.

If you like the .40, that's fine, stick with it. But there's a reason to run 9mm.

ChaneRZ
04-28-2012, 10:31 PM
Love the 40 as well! As you can see on my sig.

BrassCase
04-28-2012, 10:32 PM
Try these links and you will be so much more informed...BTW, I have 2 40's and I think it is a great round.
http://www.genitron.com/Default.html
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.40%20S&W

NorCalK9.com
04-28-2012, 10:34 PM
@micronut
I compete every year. In K9 trials lol.
As for pistols, as of rite now I dont plan on competing. I work 7 days a week. I am the owner, head trainer, customer service guy, and secretary lol.
But I do plan on taking some classes this summer jest gotta figure out which employee I trustvenough to fully cover for me.

zfields
04-28-2012, 10:34 PM
Your comparison was between a .40 and a 9mm. The 9mm will be faster, and offers the same "stopping power" as the .40. There's no evidence that suggests the .40, .45, or 9mm is better at stopping a threat. Shot placement and number of shots on target are key. The 9mm generally facilitates faster shots on target and larger capacity magazines.

If you like the .40, that's fine, stick with it. But there's a reason to run 9mm.

I was a 45 whore for quite a while. Once I found a 9mm I liked, I get faster stage times, along with being more accurate.

As for stopping power, sure 45 puts bigger holes in things, but I can get 2 124 grain +p gold dots on target in the same time.



As for 40, its a good round, but it was created as a solution to 10mm being to much for some people. I think it has an interesting history.

locosway
04-28-2012, 10:36 PM
I was a 45 whore for quite a while. Once I found a 9mm I liked, I get faster stage times, along with being more accurate.

As for stopping power, sure 45 puts bigger holes in things, but I can get 2 124 grain +p gold dots on target in the same time.

Yep.

I love my 1911's in .45, but the 9mm is my go to gun for most everything.

If I want to shoot a .40 caliber gun, I grab my Glock 20 and shoot some 10mm.

Demonicspire
04-28-2012, 11:26 PM
Good question. I'm all ears on this as well. Been really drooling on the H&K USP as my next conquest and trying to find a reason not to.

I'm eyeballing the USP as well, but I prefer .45 ACP. That being said, and more generally on topic, my understanding is the .40 is a compromise between 9mm adn .45 ACP.

Its a popular round with feds of many stripes. I have a friend whose brother works as a bodyguard for the state department and his carry weapon is chambered in .40

hyperion.excal
04-28-2012, 11:58 PM
Your comparison was between a .40 and a 9mm. The 9mm will be faster, and offers the same "stopping power" as the .40. There's no evidence that suggests the .40, .45, or 9mm is better at stopping a threat. Shot placement and number of shots on target are key. The 9mm generally facilitates faster shots on target and larger capacity magazines.

If you like the .40, that's fine, stick with it. But there's a reason to run 9mm.

correction 9mm does not offer the same stopping power as .40

locosway
04-29-2012, 12:00 AM
correction 9mm does not offer the same stopping power as .40

Prove it!

With modern JHP bullets there is no difference between calibers. LVMPD has one of the more extensive tests on this, and they concluded that the 9mm performed as well as any other caliber issued.

fullrearview
04-29-2012, 12:09 AM
The .40 eventually lead Sig to make all their slides out of stainless steel. It's a good round, but it has high chamber pressures and fast slide speeds.

IVth Horseman
04-29-2012, 12:19 AM
The average .40 will cause a larger temporary stretch cavity than the average 9mm, that's a fact. But shot placement is absolutely paramount. It all comes down to YOUR personal ability with any caliber. Train and practice with any self-defense caliber enough and you'll be fine.

hyperion.excal
04-29-2012, 12:32 AM
Your comparison was between a .40 and a 9mm. The 9mm will be faster, and offers the same "stopping power" as the .40. There's no evidence that suggests the .40, .45, or 9mm is better at stopping a threat. Shot placement and number of shots on target are key. The 9mm generally facilitates faster shots on target and larger capacity magazines.

If you like the .40, that's fine, stick with it. But there's a reason to run 9mm.
Its true that 9mm will be faster, but thats already a given being its the smallest bullet out of the 3 and there is hardly any recoil. But saying that 9mm offers the same stopping power as the 40 is completely absurd im sorry but you can believe what you want to believe but bashing 40 will not make the 9mm feel even close to the stopping power that 40 offers.

Also the larger capacity that 9mm offer does not prove to be any advantage to users who live in CA.


Prove it!

With modern JHP bullets there is no difference between calibers. LVMPD has one of the more extensive tests on this, and they concluded that the 9mm performed as well as any other caliber issued.

FBI has done an even more extensive tests on these bullets and i would trust their test more. Also thousands of PDs and SDs all over the country uses it. if 40 was as bad as you think then everyone would be carrying 9mms or crying over the price of 45s.

Modern JHP bullet does not matter 9mm is a 9mm it will not get any bigger.
The 40 is always going to be the bigger bullet that packs the harder punch out of the two.

1lostinspace
04-29-2012, 12:35 AM
I dont wanna hear your BS that you think, or that you might be too panzy to handle the snappiness.

I own a couple pistols in .40 such as glock23 and glock27. Im hearing alot of people bashing this round. Why? Is it just ignorance or is it true its barely more than a 9mm?
I love my .40's but with my vrother being a cissy lala he is, i'm wondering if I should sell or trade mine as well.

Again I dont care what you prefer I care about the true ballistics of thevround and tissue damage compared to 9mm and 45acp. Thanks guys.
And I googled the crap out of this but find stuff that isnt to informative.

A +P+ 9mm has more energy transfer better penetration and let recoil not to mention round capacity. There is nothing wrong with a 40 cal it's a balance between 9mm and 45ACP
Basically a nurtured 10mm. Don't listen to people do what works for you

osxgp
04-29-2012, 12:44 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W

This should educate you and anyone else who is curious.

osxgp
04-29-2012, 12:49 AM
Prove it!

With modern JHP bullets there is no difference between calibers. LVMPD has one of the more extensive tests on this, and they concluded that the 9mm performed as well as any other caliber issued.

The 9mm has been proven ineffective time and time again in real world situations.

ErikTheRed
04-29-2012, 12:59 AM
.40 is better, because with a .40 cal, you get to yell out "Its a FO-TAY, sukkas!!!" Can't do that with a 9mm.

Munk
04-29-2012, 12:59 AM
A +P+ 9mm has more energy transfer better penetration and let recoil not to mention round capacity. There is nothing wrong with a 40 cal it's a balance between 9mm and 45ACP
Basically a nurtured neutered 10mm. Don't listen to people do what works for you

+P+? how can you compare something that goes so far out of Spec that it doesn't have a real pressure designation with a factory loading? +P refers to being above normal pressure specs. +P+ means it is exceeding all the specifications, has no max threshhold and is no longer considered safe or sensible to fire. It also voids all warranties. Try comparing Apples to Apples next time.

Modern expanding bullets level the playing field in terms of effectiveness quite a bit. A bit of extra size adds a bit of extra damage, but with each caliber offering a sizable expansion, the differences are less pronounced.

I went with a .40 over a 9mm because of magazine capacity restrictions. Since I can't carry 17 effective rounds, I may as well carry 10 rounds with the largest diameter available.

CAglock20c
04-29-2012, 1:04 AM
it was developed for the FBI after the famous Miami shootout and is a shortened version of the 10mm (40 magnum if you will). more stopping power and better ballistics than the 9mm, actually pretty close ballistics-wise to the 45 ACP and cheaper to shoot.

zfields
04-29-2012, 1:05 AM
This thread just went full retard.

IronCobra
04-29-2012, 6:04 AM
The 9mm has been proven ineffective time and time again in real world situations.

Rounds like 9mm or .22 are extremely common. They are used more than other rounds, so of course there will be incidents where they are ineffective. There are also many incidents where they killed (even from a single shot).

Bet you can't find data that shows 2 chest 1 head from 9mm JHP was "ineffective" or even one incident where someone was shot multiple times in the chest without body armor and was still able to kill the shooter.

However, if i were LE and I had to worry about the possibility of body armor or vehicles, I think that i would be uncomfortable carrying a 9mm.

I'd be much more comfortable with .357 sig (which most modern .40 cals can be easily converted to fire) but that's another discussion entirely.

1lostinspace
04-29-2012, 6:24 AM
+P+? how can you compare something that goes so far out of Spec that it doesn't have a real pressure designation with a factory loading? +P refers to being above normal pressure specs. +P+ means it is exceeding all the specifications, has no max threshhold and is no longer considered safe or sensible to fire. It also voids all warranties. Try comparing Apples to Apples next time.

Modern expanding bullets level the playing field in terms of effectiveness quite a bit. A bit of extra size adds a bit of extra damage, but with each caliber offering a sizable expansion, the differences are less pronounced.

I went with a .40 over a 9mm because of magazine capacity restrictions. Since I can't carry 17 effective rounds, I may as well carry 10 rounds with the largest diameter available.

My G17 burps out +P+ with out a hick up! Lol damn dude chill 40 is great but the diameter of the bullet is less important then when and how the JHP transfers the energy! You don't really think 1mm makes a difference do you!
It's more about weight and velocity.

1lostinspace
04-29-2012, 6:28 AM
Rounds like 9mm or .22 are extremely common. They are used more than other rounds, so of course there will be incidents where they are ineffective. There are also many incidents where they killed (even from a single shot).

Bet you can't find data that shows 2 chest 1 head from 9mm JHP was "ineffective" or even one incident where someone was shot multiple times in the chest without body armor and was still able to kill the shooter.

However, if i were LE and I had to worry about the possibility of body armor or vehicles, I think that i would be uncomfortable carrying a 9mm.

I'd be much more comfortable with .357 sig (which most modern .40 cals can be easily converted to fire) but that's another discussion entirely.

I like 357 sig as well nasty round!
There is no reason to argue ballistics the myth of 9mm not working and the 45 makes you do a back flip is crap!
With modern JHP the stopping ratios have sky rocketed. I am going to say it once and for all.

SHOT PLACEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oceanbob
04-29-2012, 6:50 AM
Face it kids....so many good calibers and handguns, no enough time and money :D

I love 9MM, .357SIG, .40, 10MM, .45 Auto. Love'em all. Have handguns that shoot them all.

It's all about precision shooting in a defensive situation.

A-S-P

Accuracy, Speed and Power.

Hit the target, do it fast and have enough foot pounds of energy to stop the threat. End of story.

(What old gun fighter said "take your time in a hurry"..? No coffee yet this morning...:) )

1lostinspace
04-29-2012, 7:01 AM
Face it kids....so many good calibers and handguns, no enough time and money :D

I love 9MM, .357SIG, .40, 10MM, .45 Auto. Love'em all. Have handguns that shoot them all.

It's all about precision shooting in a defensive situation.

A-S-P

Accuracy, Speed and Power.

Hit the target, do it fast and have enough foot pounds of energy to stop the threat. End of story.

(What old gun fighter said "take your time in a hurry"..? No coffee yet this morning...:) )

Lol drinking mine on the toilet

tuna quesadilla
04-29-2012, 7:19 AM
Its true that 9mm will be faster, but thats already a given being its the smallest bullet out of the 3 and there is hardly any recoil. But saying that 9mm offers the same stopping power as the 40 is completely absurd im sorry but you can believe what you want to believe but bashing 40 will not make the 9mm feel even close to the stopping power that 40 offers.

Also the larger capacity that 9mm offer does not prove to be any advantage to users who live in CA.




FBI has done an even more extensive tests on these bullets and i would trust their test more. Also thousands of PDs and SDs all over the country uses it. if 40 was as bad as you think then everyone would be carrying 9mms or crying over the price of 45s.

Modern JHP bullet does not matter 9mm is a 9mm it will not get any bigger.
The 40 is always going to be the bigger bullet that packs the harder punch out of the two.

Please define "stopping power" and how it is quantified. What unit is used to measure stopping power?

You do know about the multiple shootings on record where a perp was shot over a dozen times with a .40 S&W before finally expiring?

All handgun calibers are equally ineffective. Modern JHP ammo closes the performance gap between the calibers, but they all are still very bad at putting somebody down. The survival rate for a single handgun wound is something absurdly high like 80%.

If carrying .40 makes you feel better, then so be it. Just as long as you understand that you're handicapping yourself on capacity and followup shots for a round that gives you zero benefit. Shot placement is what puts people down, not some mythical "stopping power." A 9mm that happens to slice the spinal cord a la the great Hollywood bank robbery of the 1990s will kill a man instantly, whereas 20 .40 cal bullets to various fleshy parts of the body may not kill the guy until he completely bleeds out.

ap3572001
04-29-2012, 7:24 AM
.40 Caliber is VERY good.

I carry a .40 on duty and off duty. ( Most fo the time)

My favorite platform for .40 is a Glock 22 GEN4 with 15 and 22rd magazines .

Thats a lot of firepower.

It also feels just like my Glock 17.

Also .40 Glock with Federal HST is VERY accurate. As accurate as my full size Custom 1911's when using 230FMJ ammo.

Lead Waster
04-29-2012, 7:24 AM
Another bonus for .40 is that when there are ammo runs at walmart (election years) there is usually some .40 left on the shelf while .45, 9mm and .22lr are all gone.

1lostinspace
04-29-2012, 7:31 AM
Another bonus for .40 is that when there are ammo runs at walmart (election years) there is usually some .40 left on the shelf while .45, 9mm and .22lr are all gone.

Walmart ammo lol I did not see any 40 I did see 45GAP

ap3572001
04-29-2012, 7:46 AM
.40 is very good , so is a 45 and 9mm.

Recent LE training showed that the ability to fire A lOT of rounds fast, accurately ,without much recoil and without a need to reload can be a huge advantage . I still like 9mm a lot.......:)

1lostinspace
04-29-2012, 7:50 AM
.40 is very good , so is a 45 and 9mm.

Recent LE training showed that the ability to fire A lOT of rounds fast, accurately ,without much recoil and without a need to reload can be a huge advantage . I still like 9mm a lot.......:)

Out of all the different calibers I own 9mm is my top choice. I have been shooting for a long time and prefer multiple follow up shots

JMP
04-29-2012, 8:23 AM
.45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9mm, WTF, REALLY? Is that all you can handle? Just saying...

Now, I am sure the pansy scientist geek designing this stuff would say some nonsense like...

All three calibers have about the same amount of energy as kinetic energy equals 1/2 x mass x velocity^2. Because velocity plays more into the energy equation than mass, the 9mm catches up to the 45 due to its higher velocity.

But wait, before you put down your 1911, momentum which plays a role in knock down power is greatest in a 45 since momentum is proportional to mass x velocity. 45 wins for knock down power.

Upon impact, we have to look at the lateral damage the shockwave will cause (trauma caused by the wave generated by the bullet, not the actual bullet). If you wanted to cause the most damage, you'd want to find the projectile that has a wave frequency that best aligns to cause the most tissue damage. Since tissue is made up primarily of H20, this is what you'd target. This is how your microwave heats up your food with sound waves. It generates the wave with a frequency that is aligned to the size of the H20 molecules to generate a resonance (causing them to vibrate).

Medically, the trauma surgeon is concerned more about the velocity of the round, which is why he'll want to know what type of round was used. He can repair the damage caused by the actual bullet based on physical inspection, but he cannot repair the damage that he cannot see unless he knows the speed of the bullet. The faster the bullet, the more tissue that needs to be resected during surgery. High velocity projectiles will eviscerate tissue well beyond the actual path of the projectile. The surgeon must estimate the radius of this damage and remove this tissue. This tissue has the physical appearance of being unharmed, but it will inevitably die within a few days, so the repair will fail if the shock induced eviscerated tissue is not removed.

That said, any doctor will tell you that the easiest gun shot wound to treat is 12 gauge pellets, shot from 15 feet. The treatment is to pronounce death based on body color. It is possible to survive a point blank shot or a shot at longer distances, though.

All this is kind of splitting hairs among pistol calibers. But, this is the reason (above hitting the target) that the .338 lapua and .416 barrett are so effective.

In conclusion, bigger is better; faster is better. You decide if you want 9mm, .40, .45; all seem adequate. I am sure there is a reason all three calibers have existed and are widely used.

There are exceptions; one is the .22lr. If shot in the head, it generally has enough energy to penetrate the scull, but not usually enough energy to exit the skull, so it frequently ricochets around inside the skull, destroying massive amounts of brain tissue.

tuna quesadilla
04-29-2012, 8:34 AM
.45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9mm, WTF, REALLY? Is that all you can handle? Just saying...

Now, I am sure the pansy scientist geek designing this stuff would say some nonsense like...

All three calibers have about the same amount of energy as kinetic energy equals 1/2 x mass x velocity^2. Because velocity plays more into the energy equation than mass, the 9mm catches up to the 45 due to its higher velocity.

But wait, before you put down your 1911, momentum which plays a role in knock down power is greatest in a 45 since momentum is proportional to mass x velocity. 45 wins for knock down power.

Upon impact, we have to look at the lateral damage the shockwave will cause (trauma caused by the wave generated by the bullet, not the actual bullet). If you wanted to cause the most damage, you'd want to find the projectile that has a wave frequency that best aligns to cause the most tissue damage. Since tissue is made up primarily of H20, this is what you'd target. This is how your microwave heats up your food with sound waves. It generates the wave with a frequency that is aligned to the size of the H20 molecules to generate a resonance (causing them to vibrate).

Medically, the trauma surgeon is concerned more about the velocity of the round, which is why he'll want to know what type of round was used. He can repair the damage caused by the actual bullet based on physical inspection, but he cannot repair the damage that he cannot see unless he knows the speed of the bullet. The faster the bullet, the more tissue that needs to be resected during surgery. High velocity projectiles will eviscerate tissue well beyond the actual path of the projectile. The surgeon must estimate the radius of this damage and remove this tissue. This tissue has the physical appearance of being unharmed, but it will inevitably die within a few days, so the repair will fail if the shock induced eviscerated tissue is not removed.

That said, any doctor will tell you that the easiest gun shot wound to treat is 12 gauge pellets, shot from 15 feet. The treatment is to pronounce death based on body color. It is possible to survive a point blank shot or a shot at longer distances, though.

All this is kind of splitting hairs among pistol calibers. But, this is the reason (above hitting the target) that the .338 lapua and .416 barrett are so effective.

In conclusion, bigger is better; faster is better. You decide if you want 9mm, .40, .45; all seem adequate. I am sure there is a reason all three calibers have existed and are widely used.

There are exceptions; one is the .22lr. If shot in the head, it generally has enough energy to penetrate the scull, but not usually enough energy to exit the skull, so it frequently ricochets around inside the skull, destroying massive amounts of brain tissue.

So much fail in one post.

Please stop spreading BS and myths. Impressionable minds will actually believe what you just wrote and they will perpetuate those myths.

mievil
04-29-2012, 8:39 AM
I'd love to see how many of these "two body, one head" guys could actually hit a moving target that is shooting back at them twice in the body and once in the head.

I have multiple .40 pistols and am starting to want to convert to 9mm just for cost savings. I figure I can use the extra $100/1k on training. I do have the 9mm barrel for my .40 Glock and would prefer to shoot that all day long, but I do come home and put the .40 HST next to the gun in the safe. Only reason I got it was the hype in the magazines at the time. And .45 was too damn expensive. Now with .40 and .45 not having as much of a split in ammo prices, I'm not as sold as I used to be.

ap3572001
04-29-2012, 8:40 AM
I never compare caliber alone. It makes no sense.

I compare a pistol/caliber vs. pistol/caliber. Its more relaistic.

G22 VS. G17 , Full size 1911 in 45 acp vs. Beretta 92FS, G30 VS G27.

Would I rather put in my holster a G21 or a 22? Or a 17?


ETC.

1lostinspace
04-29-2012, 8:58 AM
G17 for me there is no stopping power when your empty!

JMP
04-29-2012, 9:00 AM
Sorry Tuna Quesadilla. That's what they try to make you believe at these liberal indoctrinating institutions called universities. I am sure that Sir Isaac Newton was a pansy, so I wouldn't believe anything from his work. The only reason I want to know any of this communist propaganda is so I can get into the mind of the enemy.

NorCalK9.com
04-29-2012, 9:18 AM
Ok first of all
I own a couple glock23 rebuild 30rnd mags, as well as rebuild n preban 15rnd glock23 mags. So the capacity isnt that much of a difference. And heck bet I could find a .22 mag that holds a 100 rounds lol.
Again now this thread has derailed, so i'm probably checking out.


Look what I started.

S470FM
04-29-2012, 11:15 AM
enjoy them all. I have 2 40s, 1 9, 1 357 and 2 45s and I enjoy them all. there is something to be said if LEO departments around the country use the 40 though.

LBDamned
04-29-2012, 11:35 AM
Thank you guys, I quite enjoy my .40's I practice/plink almost everyday in the back yard. Im not a big guy, 5'11 180lbs and I dont have an issue with the recoil, and I find it funny when these big guys say the recoil is too snappy.
Im keeping my .40s and thank you guys for giving me intelligent explanations.

snappy doesnt mean uncontrollable or problematic... I've always describe .40 as snappy, there really is no better description. .45 is warm, 9mm is light, ,40 is snappy.

I love .40 and own a couple (had three, recently sold one)... but saying it's snappy is not inaccurate or bad. On the other hand "too" snappy? I dont know wtf that means - as if there is an acceptable amount of snappiness? I dont know of another round that I would call snappy - so I'm not sure what they mean by "too" snappy.

HondaMasterTech
04-29-2012, 11:43 AM
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

verb1
04-29-2012, 11:51 AM
I can't quote you ballistics stats or penetration figures, but I've owned several 9mm guns and have shot with my Glock 23 for years. Honestly, both rounds are widely used by police forces, and both have sufficient stopping power. I certainly wouldn't want to be shot by either! The .40 is definitely a more zippy round, but not anything anyone can't handle. I do plan on trading my G23 in this week, however, due to rising ammo costs. Ultimately, it comes down to which you shoot more accurately with and whether ammo costs are an issue for you.

hyperion.excal
04-29-2012, 11:59 AM
Please define "stopping power" and how it is quantified. What unit is used to measure stopping power?

You do know about the multiple shootings on record where a perp was shot over a dozen times with a .40 S&W before finally expiring?

All handgun calibers are equally ineffective. Modern JHP ammo closes the performance gap between the calibers, but they all are still very bad at putting somebody down. The survival rate for a single handgun wound is something absurdly high like 80%.

If carrying .40 makes you feel better, then so be it. Just as long as you understand that you're handicapping yourself on capacity and followup shots for a round that gives you zero benefit. Shot placement is what puts people down, not some mythical "stopping power." A 9mm that happens to slice the spinal cord a la the great Hollywood bank robbery of the 1990s will kill a man instantly, whereas 20 .40 cal bullets to various fleshy parts of the body may not kill the guy until he completely bleeds out.


Not at all. I would feel more handicapped using a 9mm in HD situation. I shoot 40 better, faster and more accurate than 9mm. I've practice with the 40 enough to and i know its the right round for me.

Most people avoid the 40 because of the term "snappy" but you have to add the gun to the equation, are they even using the right gun? just like when you fire a .45 out of a 3" pistol you will get more recoil and muzzle rise than a full size 40 pistol.

i have read a story about a police shoot out where the police is using 9mm and trying to put a guy down, the bad guy was shot 5-6 times in the CNS and would not go down even when using a 147gr bullet. Since then their PD has changed to 40SW and had no problem putting bad guys down.

Sam
04-29-2012, 12:39 PM
Read this post which was written by a ballistics expert and then make your own cost/benefit analysis:
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

Patermagnus
04-29-2012, 12:44 PM
Some points worth considering from one of the more informed voices in defensive shooting:
http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_article002168437.cfm

Red Devil
04-29-2012, 1:57 PM
G23/180 gr. HST...

- same size as a 1911 Officer's.
- no manual safeties.
- twice the load capacity.
- same wt. loaded as the 1911 Officer's empty.
- comparable performance b/t the .40S&W 180/.45ACP 185
- easier to control.
- less expensive.
- more durable and reliable.

I like subsonic rounds. They are easier on the ears when you need'em in a hurry and they work well w/o havin' to cook what they hit.

The HST 180's are very reliable performers through all the barriers from t-shirt to auto body/glass.

.,..And my wife can perform a "Mozambique Drill" at 15 yards in 2 seconds w/ my G23/180HST's.


Practice... practice... practice...

LBDamned
04-29-2012, 2:41 PM
what I've come to realize is; the only problem with any particular round is there are soooooo many "expert" analysis... too many wanna-be experts... and far too many "studies"... and they don't conclude a say-all end-all caliber.

Analogy; you can learn to read sheet music and study music theory, it doesnt make you a good musician - practice the instrument and you can be proficient... you can study hours of video and techniques for race car driving, sit in hours of classroom instruction but you'll learn the most by actually driving on a track (in any car).

Bottom line is, there will never be a "best" caliber... learn the basics, train and practice and you will be proficient. Ballistics charts and thousands of articles from experts arent going to do a damn thing for you if you dont become comfortable with your weapon(s) and become proficient with them.

Frankly, I dont see a reason to be dead set on one caliber... train with as many as you are able - you never know when the only weapon you have access to is one that isn't your "perfect" caliber... be proficient with many.

NorCalK9.com
04-29-2012, 3:01 PM
Thanks to most of you. And when I said people say its too snappt for them, theyre saying it cause they wont buy/shoot .40

Blaze Kenobi
04-29-2012, 3:05 PM
FYI..... I don't know if u guys heard or read about our Goverment ordering 430 million rounds of .40 caliber. Since .40 is not used by NATO I don't know if our government is planning on using on us Americans, all those rounds. It should tell u something about .40 caliber over everyones favorite 9mm. Workout your forearms and control your breathing and your placement will the same with any caliber. Watch Alex Jones!

Deadon
04-29-2012, 3:33 PM
Just buy what you want and dont listen to the hate. I shoot 9,40,45 sorry no 10mm because of the crazy price. The ones i do own I shoot them all very well. Well enough that Caliber isnt a problem when I choose mt carry weapon. But Im also not a chick. Im 6'4 and 250lbs so maybe that has something to do with it, I dunno. Like I said buy what you want and shoot your guns, trigger time is key. You'll be fine.

Bill Carson
04-29-2012, 3:36 PM
A .40 cal is cool cus you can say FOHTAYYY

Hipster Mike
04-29-2012, 4:11 PM
One thing I notice. Whenever I go to walmart, even if they are out of both 9 and 45 they always have 40 there available.

Thinking of picking up a Sig 229 in 40

Lumpia is sarap!
04-29-2012, 7:05 PM
It's the red-headed step child of calibers...or more like the middle child. But 9mm very affordable and pleasant to shoot. .45ACP is the American caliber. The .40 is good enough for law enforcement, but I'm not a cop.

giantsfan
04-29-2012, 7:45 PM
Use a caliber that is known to be a reliable stopper that is comfortable for you to shoot ... train, train and then train some more.

.38, .357, 9mm, .40, .45 can all take down an assailant it's been proven time and again. However, if you don't train with your chosen weapon in preparation for the situation when it occurs you're better off with a rock.

Don't worry about stopping power if you can't hit what you're aiming at. If I need much more that 4 rounds of 9mm...I'm calling in close air support!

locosway
04-29-2012, 8:06 PM
i have read a story about a police shoot out where the police is using 9mm and trying to put a guy down, the bad guy was shot 5-6 times in the CNS and would not go down even when using a 147gr bullet. Since then their PD has changed to 40SW and had no problem putting bad guys down.

HAHAHAHAHA


I'm done here, have a good one.

Munk
04-29-2012, 8:48 PM
One thing I notice. Whenever I go to walmart, even if they are out of both 9 and 45 they always have 40 there available.

Thinking of picking up a Sig 229 in 40

Disregard 40 if getting 229 or 226, and acquire a .357Sig (Optional: .40 drop-in barrel swap).

They took a .40 case (but slightly longer) and necked it down to a 9mm.

Now you have a dream cartridge for CA shooters who can't get Large Cap mags. You get your 9mm bullet with a much faster speed.

SouperMan
04-29-2012, 8:54 PM
Disregard 40 if getting 229 or 226, and acquire a .357Sig (Optional: .40 drop-in barrel swap).

They took a .40 case (but slightly longer) and necked it down to a 9mm.

Now you have a dream cartridge for CA shooters who can't get Large Cap mags. You get your 9mm bullet with a much faster speed.

That maybe the case, but it's about $30 for 50 rounds of .357SIG! I have a Glock 32 and found a .40 S&W Barrel from Lone Wolf for plinking fun; .40 S&W runs about $16 for 50.

hyperion.excal
04-29-2012, 9:11 PM
HAHAHAHAHA


I'm done here, have a good one.

:smilielol5:

Icypu
04-29-2012, 9:33 PM
Nobody here in this failed thread mentioned the ERGONOMIC advantages of .40 S&W. If you don't have gorilla hands, a 9mm frame is exactly the same width and dimensions as a .40 S&W frame on 90% of 40 S&W guns including subcompacts.

This means if you have a small hand, and you have difficulty with a larger .45 grip like a FNP-45, the .40 S&W gives you a versatile round without the need for a large frame. On a heavy steel frame like the Jericho, I notice no snappiness.

In the end, .40 S&W allows me to buy one gun and shoot 3 calibers from it .40,.357 sig,9mm with a simple barrel swap. If you buy a 9mm, you can't do that since the barrel OD's are different. If you buy a .45, the breechface is totally different so you cant use a barrel swap. With few exceptions like the EAA Witness, .40 S&W is the most ergonomic, versatile cartridge.

These advantages are all in addition to the stopping power of the cartridge itself.

Red Devil
04-29-2012, 9:39 PM
Nobody here in this failed thread mentioned the ERGONOMIC advantages of .40 S&W....

#56... (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8490788&postcount=56)

Icypu
04-29-2012, 9:45 PM
#56... (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8490788&postcount=56)

You're right. But to the point, its easier to hold double stack .40 pistol than a double stack .45 one.

BrassCase
04-29-2012, 11:01 PM
Some faulty logic here. If hole size and follow up shot speed rules then my CZ82 in 9mm Makrov would rule the day! I can get more follow-up shots off faster with it then with my 9MM luger rounds from my Walther. The Makrov rounds at 95 gr. have less kick than the 124 gr. luger rounds. The imparted energy that a body has to absorb when hit by a bullet is important. That is why the 40 is a better stopping round than the 9mm. Read the info in links I laid out above.

Colt-45
04-29-2012, 11:02 PM
The .40sw is .45acp and 9mm's love child.

tuna quesadilla
04-29-2012, 11:15 PM
Not at all. I would feel more handicapped using a 9mm in HD situation. I shoot 40 better, faster and more accurate than 9mm. I've practice with the 40 enough to and i know its the right round for me.

Most people avoid the 40 because of the term "snappy" but you have to add the gun to the equation, are they even using the right gun? just like when you fire a .45 out of a 3" pistol you will get more recoil and muzzle rise than a full size 40 pistol.

i have read a story about a police shoot out where the police is using 9mm and trying to put a guy down, the bad guy was shot 5-6 times in the CNS and would not go down even when using a 147gr bullet. Since then their PD has changed to 40SW and had no problem putting bad guys down.

So much fail.

:rofl2:

tuna quesadilla
04-29-2012, 11:16 PM
The .40sw is .45acp and 9mm's love child.

No... It's actually not. Please leave this thread. :rolleyes:

tuna quesadilla
04-29-2012, 11:18 PM
Thanks to most of you. And when I said people say its too snappt for them, theyre saying it cause they wont buy/shoot .40

Actually I say it's "too snappy" because it is too snappy and my times are faster with a 9mm Glock than with a .40 cal Glock. But please, keep on living in your alternate universe where AKs are better than ARs and 9mm is a girl's round. :rofl:

hyperion.excal
04-29-2012, 11:39 PM
So much fail.

:rofl2:

So much fail in one post.



No... It's actually not. Please leave this thread. :rolleyes:

x2 but no back up to either me or JMP

Sooooooooo much FAIL?.

:laugh:

guy you are a joke i have never seen a troll as big as you.

dem0critus
04-30-2012, 3:26 AM
This thread just went full retard.

this

PandaLuv
04-30-2012, 3:54 AM
This thread just went full retard.

Lol


Considering how many .40 threads there have been lately.



They're like Martin/Zimmerman threads in OT.

PandaLuv
04-30-2012, 3:58 AM
Not at all. I would feel more handicapped using a 9mm in HD situation. I shoot 40 better, faster and more accurate than 9mm. I've practice with the 40 enough to and i know its the right round for me.

Most people avoid the 40 because of the term "snappy" but you have to add the gun to the equation, are they even using the right gun? just like when you fire a .45 out of a 3" pistol you will get more recoil and muzzle rise than a full size 40 pistol.

i have read a story about a police shoot out where the police is using 9mm and trying to put a guy down, the bad guy was shot 5-6 times in the CNS and would not go down even when using a 147gr bullet. Since then their PD has changed to 40SW and had no problem putting bad guys down.

... By all means, .40 will still kill, and you should use .40 if you're a good shot with it.


But what I don't get how .40 is deadlier than a 9mm? Maybe its FMJ, I can actually see that. But 9mm and .40 JHPs pretty much have the same expansion and stopping power, except 9mm has better velocity and less recoil.


I dunno, man. Those cops need to learn how to shoot before blaming it on the caliber.

JMP
04-30-2012, 7:42 AM
Geez, I don't know what part of California you guys live in, but y'all must get into a lot of gun fights to have such strong opinions to split hairs between two proven rounds. I guess since you are still alive, whatever you are using works. Keep it up.

I shoot handguns all calibers for recreation. If SHTF, I hope I don't have to resort to just having a little pistol in my hand.

J.D.Allen
04-30-2012, 8:22 AM
The .40 is just as good or bad as 9mm, .45, .357 sig etc. That is, it is adequate for duty or SD/HD use, same as the others. There are advantages and disadvantages to each one. Pick the one you shoot best and train with it until you can't train anymore, then train some more and stop worrying about which caliber is "best". If it's an adequate defense caliber get good ammo and you're GTG.

/thread

teflondog
04-30-2012, 8:27 AM
Shooting .40 (180 gr) in my Sig P229 feels the same as shooting 9mm (124 gr +P) out of my USP 9f. In terms of recoil, they're a wash for me. For defense I would choose the heavier and bigger .40 round if I were given the choice, but I wouldn't feel under-gunned with a 9mm.

NorCalK9.com
04-30-2012, 8:55 AM
@Tune Quesidea
bud you love to troll in my threads!
I never said 9mm was a girls round.
I was on the verge of going back to 9mm, if .40 didnt have any advantage except in Higher price.
As for AK's hahaha well you know me too well sir!!!!
Thanks everyone who responded with true factual based comments.
To those who just spewed their own theoretical crapola thank you too.
And TUNA well bud I even say thank you for trying.

12voltguy
04-30-2012, 9:30 AM
FYI..... I don't know if u guys heard or read about our Goverment ordering 430 million rounds of .40 caliber. Since .40 is not used by NATO I don't know if our government is planning on using on us Americans, all those rounds. It should tell u something about .40 caliber over everyones favorite 9mm. Workout your forearms and control your breathing and your placement will the same with any caliber. Watch Alex Jones!

look into that a bit more......lol
http://vagunforum.net/general-discussion/dhs-places-order-for-450-million-rounds-pistol-ammo-t12547.html
it's been posted here many times, all people seem to read is 430 million rounds

NorCalK9.com
04-30-2012, 9:45 AM
Well I wish I had 430million rounds lol.
If I shoot 1k rounds a week
4k rounds a month
63k a year
630k 10 years
1,260,000k rounds 20 years.
Well holy crap it'd last ME almost a lifetime!
But when split between 10k+ people I guess it aint gonna last that long. But why not buy fmj?

12voltguy
04-30-2012, 9:51 AM
But why not buy fmj?

gov like to waste our $$$$$$$$$$$

NorCalK9.com
04-30-2012, 10:33 AM
Lol i'm with you on that bud.

chrisf
04-30-2012, 11:11 AM
Its all just a preference. But mine would be with the .40 :-)

jonzer77
04-30-2012, 11:34 AM
+P+? how can you compare something that goes so far out of Spec that it doesn't have a real pressure designation with a factory loading? +P refers to being above normal pressure specs. +P+ means it is exceeding all the specifications, has no max threshhold and is no longer considered safe or sensible to fire. It also voids all warranties. Try comparing Apples to Apples next time.

Modern expanding bullets level the playing field in terms of effectiveness quite a bit. A bit of extra size adds a bit of extra damage, but with each caliber offering a sizable expansion, the differences are less pronounced.

I went with a .40 over a 9mm because of magazine capacity restrictions. Since I can't carry 17 effective rounds, I may as well carry 10 rounds with the second largest diameter available.

Fixed it for you :)

Lead Waster
04-30-2012, 12:27 PM
Unrelated (mostly) to stopping power, blah blah balh....

If you shoot USPSA/IPSC, there are some rules that make .40 better than 9mm. For instance in the Limited/Limited-10 division, .40 is the minimum bullet diameter for a round to be considered "Major", ie; hot 9mm loads are NOT major in L/L-10 division, even though 9mm major can be shot in Open Division with your $5k open race gun.

I know it's not ideal, but I plan to shoot my G23 in L-10 division at some point just for kicks.

This competition/gun games thing might not mean anything to anyone who doesn't compete. And even if you did, 9mm is all you need for the Production division. Just something to think about (or not).

1lostinspace
04-30-2012, 3:42 PM
I was in 3 wars in different galaxy's and have seen 9mm bounce off and 40 SW blow up small planets!

Sorry everyone

12voltguy
04-30-2012, 3:50 PM
Ok first of all
I own a couple glock23 rebuild 30rnd mags, as well as rebuild n preban 15rnd glock23 mags. So the capacity isnt that much of a difference. And heck bet I could find a .22 mag that holds a 100 rounds lol.
Again now this thread has derailed, so i'm probably checking out.


Look what I started.


Hmmmmmmmmm why even bring up they are rebuilds??????????:TFH::sleeping:

besides, it's all about the 5.7x 28 with 50 rd mags:D

1lostinspace
04-30-2012, 3:52 PM
The problem with a .40 is that when fired into a target that is the problem again I said, understand?

Sorry again

NorCalK9.com
04-30-2012, 3:56 PM
@12voltguy
Cause some are rebuilds and others are preban. I wont use the rebuilds except to repair my prebans.

ElHuron
04-30-2012, 4:40 PM
I think we can all be grown ups here and agree that a 9mm, .40, and .45 are all equally AS effective/ineffective if you MISS your target. In a SD/HD situation whatever you can shoot faster and more accurate is the best choice, agree? If ur shooting paper or for leisure yes 9mm is the better choice due to its low cost but as Icypu stated a .40 pistol alows you to shoot 3 calibers with barrel & mag changes so MAYBE thats what most .40 cal pistol owners do, which could explain why most gun & ammo stores ive been to lately are low or out of 9mm and .45 but .40 seems to be the more abundant.

Snappiness/too powerful/overpowered/underpowered could describe ANY round to ANY individual. Example: A .40 could feel too powerful for some small framed individuals while the same .40 could feel underpowered for heavier set/built individuals.

Effective/innefective can describe ANY round also. Example: What good would a .45 do if it hit someone in the hand versus a 9mm to the face or a .22 to the groin?

High capacity/low capacity can describe ANY round anywhere. Example: In Californa at least and in stock form, a 1911 in .45 has a capacity of 7,8, or 9 rounds and a USP in .45 can hold 10, while an XD in .40 can hold 10 and a Glock 17/19 can hold 10.
In a free state and in stock form, a 1911 in .45 can hold 7,8, or 9 rounds and a USP in .45 can hold 12 while an XD in .40 can hold 12 and a Glock 17/19 can hold 17 and 15 respectively.

So does bigger rounds in less capacity mean better than smaller rounds in higher capacity? Or vice versa? NO!!! Shot placement is key.

As far as the .40's unpopularity to me and this is JUST MY opinion, its just another option for caliber for another gun. It could be the FACT that since its a scaled down 10mm, most people dont like scaled down/small/shorter things. They want bigger/better/stronger/faster. Which after studying psychology and business in school is how commercials and adds get the general population to buy faster cars or bigger capacity music players or more powerful electronic devices. After all who wants to buy a slow car, low capacity MP3, or a less powerfull electronic device? NOT ME!!!!!, which is why ill stay away form the .40 Short &Weak (sarcasm).

AeroEngi
04-30-2012, 4:48 PM
So much fail in one post.

Please stop spreading BS and myths. Impressionable minds will actually believe what you just wrote and they will perpetuate those myths.

LOL I agree. I stopped reading when he said that a microwave heats up food using sound waves.

Munk
04-30-2012, 5:05 PM
Fixed it for you :)

I should have clarified that it's the largest that will fit on a frame that I can comfortably grip. The double-stack 1911's and other .45s with 10 round mags are usually a bit too wide for my tastes. .40's usually have the same frame as a 9mm, so they grip the same.

USMC 82-86
04-30-2012, 5:25 PM
If you shoot the .40 well? I say shoot it and don't look back. I have and shoot 9mm,.40and .45 and .38 .357. I have yet to find anyone who will stand down range of any of these calibers because they feel it is not a adequate round to get the job done. They all work and have worked many times over. I don't care if a threat does not go down after one round, you shoot until the threat stops.

If anyone feels that they need more stopping power go get a 12 gauge shotgun and load it with slugs or buckshot. Problem solved. If I have to pick up any gun to defend my family it is the right caliber at that moment. Like it has been said before. " The best gun is the one you have when you need one."

Invisible_Dave
04-30-2012, 5:30 PM
I like any ammo that goes bang when I pull the trigger. That is even more important when it's self defense ammo. In civilian home defense scenarios the average encounter takes place closer then 10 feet. An average of 7 rounds are exchanged. Usually both parties both miss and run away.

.40 will go through a windshield cleaner than 9mm, but .38 special snub nosed are carried by off duty cops daily. What caliber kills more cops per year than anything? 22LR. The fact that this argument has gone on for 3 pages enrages me.

Nightron
04-30-2012, 5:42 PM
...Is that all you can handle? Just saying...


The surgeon must estimate the radius of this damage and remove this tissue. This tissue has the physical appearance of being unharmed, but it will inevitably die within a few days, so the repair will fail if the shock induced eviscerated tissue is not removed.

That said, any doctor will tell you that the easiest gun shot wound to treat is 12 gauge pellets, shot from 15 feet. The treatment is to pronounce death based on body color. It is possible to survive a point blank shot or a shot at longer distances, though.

All this is kind of splitting hairs among pistol calibers. But, this is the reason (above hitting the target) that the .338 lapua and .416 barrett are so effective.
Ha! That is a good read.

You sir are a master of understatement. :) So few words to say and yet infer so much. I found this particular post very informative... along the lines of "who, what, when, where (how far), and how fast."

From the character of the OP, and similar threads on caliber choice... I like that there is loads of information I can take in. But do I care about optimizing -- 'no'. And there's so much misguided logic and pet opinions... to filter.

I chose 40 for HD. With a post like the above, it's good to learn what to pay attention to, and where this round (at 165gr and 180 gr) can be effective at deterring an intrusion or an attack. Thanks JMP.

Nightron
04-30-2012, 5:58 PM
So much fail in one post.

Please stop spreading BS and myths. Impressionable minds will actually believe what you just wrote and they will perpetuate those myths.
Yeah, I'm one of those "impressionable minds".
What JMP wrote RESONATES !! with other factual posts I've come across.

http://le.atk.com/ballistics/speer/speer_ballistics.aspx

For example: 53955 40 S&W 165 / 10.69 TMJ FN

Cheers.

trew10
04-30-2012, 6:06 PM
in my eyes its like getting breast implants, if you have C's why pay all that money to end up with D's go all out and get DD's. same thing if you own a 9mm why get a .40 just go with a .45 a nice 1911.

The Original Godfather
04-30-2012, 6:39 PM
There was a coroner who examined many gun-homicides and he posted his own personal experience.

I remember him posting that smaller calibers like .25acp and .32acp were seen more common in murders than larger calibers and he saw many instances of larger calibers like a .45acp hitting a target multiple times and the person still surviving.

I forgot the CalGunners name, but he is a credible source.

coy80176
04-30-2012, 7:20 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=566431

;)

john67elco
04-30-2012, 7:38 PM
This here is a glock fortay. Too Short, fiddy cent all talk about these. Im the only one professional enough to handle this weapon. Im the only one BOOOOMMMM.

jonzer77
04-30-2012, 7:44 PM
I should have clarified that it's the largest that will fit on a frame that I can comfortably grip. The double-stack 1911's and other .45s with 10 round mags are usually a bit too wide for my tastes. .40's usually have the same frame as a 9mm, so they grip the same.

They also make 10 round magazines for single stack 1911's and that is what I was referring to.

Munk
04-30-2012, 10:26 PM
They also make 10 round magazines for single stack 1911's and that is what I was referring to.

I dislike how far down they extend. I've toyed around with them when a guy let me use his 1911 at the range (it was so long ago I can't tell you which 1911 it was though) with some extended mags.

For me, the best fit was with FNP, CZ, and Beretta pistols in 9mm and .40. I was horribly torn when deciding which to buy, because I loved them all (and money-willing, i'll eventually own them all with some drop-in barrel swaps going on).

.40 has higher speed, is closer to the california maximum mag capacity of 10, so I miss out on fewer rounds with the magazines (it seriously breaks my heart to shoot a 10-round 9mm magazine, I'm almost afraid of shooting an FN 5-7 or a PMR30 because of this). And I can reload it cheaper than the .45.

With the hand-fit, magazine capacity, magazine aesthetics (no extension), load potential (I reload, so I can really make it perform if I wish), and lower loading costs, the .40 won out for me over any .45.

Mind you, for SD purposes the .45acp is definitely effective, it's just not a shooter for me,so I MYSELF would be less effective with it.

... I'll probably eventually own a 1911, but it will be in 10mm, so I can buy one batch of bullets to use between both 10 and .40, and because the 10mm is just so damn fun.:D

mbt
05-01-2012, 12:50 AM
Well, u can get mag kits legally. I see full size mags all the time at the ranges. The range masters don't give them trouble.

People looking for the best stopping power in a hg are missing the point. The hg is used only when you can't get to your carbine/sg. You don't rely on your hg for stopping "power". You use it to get away to get to your carbine/sg which has REAL STOPPING POWER that is only possible from a LONGER BARREL with CONTROLLABILTY/ACCURACY.

tuna quesadilla
05-01-2012, 1:43 AM
@Tune Quesidea
bud you love to troll in my threads!
I never said 9mm was a girls round.
I was on the verge of going back to 9mm, if .40 didnt have any advantage except in Higher price.
As for AK's hahaha well you know me too well sir!!!!
Thanks everyone who responded with true factual based comments.
To those who just spewed their own theoretical crapola thank you too.
And TUNA well bud I even say thank you for trying.

Disagreeing with your outright lies is trolling? Go ahead and report me then. :rolleyes: You made the outrageously false claim that anybody who thinks .40 is too snappy is lying. I retorted with the fact that my own empirical evidence shows that .40 IS too snappy. That ain't trolling, bud.

creampuff
05-01-2012, 4:51 AM
Yeah, I'm one of those "impressionable minds".
What JMP wrote RESONATES !! with other factual posts I've come across.

http://le.atk.com/ballistics/speer/speer_ballistics.aspx

For example: 53955 40 S&W 165 / 10.69 TMJ FN

Cheers.

I don't think JMP was being serious....

supersonic
05-01-2012, 5:26 AM
Okay, here you go: .40 S&W stands for ".40-caliber, Short & Weak." Get a 10MM. You'll be much happier. If you want .40 S&W power, just buy anything off the shelf of your local gun store (except Buffalo Bore or Winchester Silvertips), or if you handload, just use 135-180-grain bullets with a light powder charge, and you will have your .40. Now, if you want a real 10MM load (and the kind of power that it was designed to deliver) just work a 180-grain bonded bullet up to 1400 fps+ and you will then have a round that will go through the windshield of a car and end up in the rear wheel (and that is including passing through an occupant in one of the front seats); the seat itself; the rear seat; the front trunk wall; the rear quarter panel; and the tire). I also have a 200-grain handload that does over 1350 fps and a 135-grainer that does 1750 fps, but haven't tested these, though I'm sure the results would be just as - if not more - devastating.

Bobby Hated
05-01-2012, 5:30 AM
just cause we aint in Texas don't mean bigger ain't better!

jonzer77
05-01-2012, 5:56 AM
I dislike how far down they extend. I've toyed around with them when a guy let me use his 1911 at the range (it was so long ago I can't tell you which 1911 it was though) with some extended mags.

For me, the best fit was with FNP, CZ, and Beretta pistols in 9mm and .40. I was horribly torn when deciding which to buy, because I loved them all (and money-willing, i'll eventually own them all with some drop-in barrel swaps going on).

.40 has higher speed, is closer to the california maximum mag capacity of 10, so I miss out on fewer rounds with the magazines (it seriously breaks my heart to shoot a 10-round 9mm magazine, I'm almost afraid of shooting an FN 5-7 or a PMR30 because of this). And I can reload it cheaper than the .45.

With the hand-fit, magazine capacity, magazine aesthetics (no extension), load potential (I reload, so I can really make it perform if I wish), and lower loading costs, the .40 won out for me over any .45.

Mind you, for SD purposes the .45acp is definitely effective, it's just not a shooter for me,so I MYSELF would be less effective with it.

... I'll probably eventually own a 1911, but it will be in 10mm, so I can buy one batch of bullets to use between both 10 and .40, and because the 10mm is just so damn fun.:D

Yeah I know what you mean, I was just giving you a hard time lol. It feels weird having 10 rounds whenever I use it even though it's only two extra rounds.

A 10mm 1911 is on my bucket list as well.

NorCalK9.com
05-01-2012, 7:27 AM
@tuna ques
Where did I lie? I said what these guys told me. For me its NOT too snappy. Does it have recoil? Yes. Is it uncontrollable? No. you're the kind of person who i'd tend to ignore in a actual group discussion, so I think i'll just start ignoring you on these board discussions, cause you never have nothing good to add just your nonsense.

bruss01
05-01-2012, 7:56 AM
Thank you guys, I quite enjoy my .40's I practice/plink almost everyday in the back yard. Im not a big guy, 5'11 180lbs and I dont have an issue with the recoil, and I find it funny when these big guys say the recoil is too snappy.
Im keeping my .40s and thank you guys for giving me intelligent explanations.

In ballistics gel the results are slightly better than 9mm. My belief is that since the .40 allows for a higher grain weight projectile, it should allow for superior penetration when gel (or tissue similar to gel) is not the only thing it is likely to hit. I believe the FBI took this into account when they re-designed their weaponry and the rounds they fire. Also taken into account is barrier penetration, such as glass, heavy fabric, etc. Yet it still allows you the relatively high capacity and svelte grip frame of a 9mm.

Is it the hardest hitting round? No. Is it the highest capacity count? No. Is it the most powerful round? No. But is it relatively high capacity, relatively hard hitting, and relatively powerful? I'd have to say yes on all 3 counts. That's a nice all-around package.

If you shoot 180 grain bullets from a steel-framed pistol (such as a CZ-75b .40 cal) you won't notice snappiness, just recoil which is what you expect from a handgun. I like my CZ's and I like my .40 S&W.

Full disclosure: I own pistols chambered in .22lr, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, 9mm Mak and 7.62 Tok. They all have strengths and they all have drawbacks. But what have I got on my permit? A .40 and a .44 - That should tell you what I think in a nutshell.

tuna quesadilla
05-01-2012, 8:28 AM
@tuna ques
Where did I lie? I said what these guys told me. For me its NOT too snappy. Does it have recoil? Yes. Is it uncontrollable? No. you're the kind of person who i'd tend to ignore in a actual group discussion, so I think i'll just start ignoring you on these board discussions, cause you never have nothing good to add just your nonsense.

Thanks to most of you. And when I said people say its too snappt for them, theyre saying it cause they wont buy/shoot .40


BAM, there it is broseph.

tuna quesadilla
05-01-2012, 8:30 AM
x2 but no back up to either me or JMP

Sooooooooo much FAIL?.

:laugh:

guy you are a joke i have never seen a troll as big as you.

Yes, FAIL.

How does one shoot .40 more accurately than 9, as you claimed to?

You realize that .40 and 9 are just calibers, right? A set of specifications that any manufacturer can choose to adhere to? That a given pistol and loading in 9 can be inherently more accurate than a given pistol and loading in .40, and vice-versa? It is physically impossible to "shoot .40 more accurately than 9" because there are so many external factors.

Is "Troll" the default way on Calguns to tell someone you disagree with them? It's kinda funny because watching a bunch of Californians (Hey, I'm one too) talk about actually using a firearm for its intended purpose is like watching a bunch of penguins talk about that vacation they took to Jamaica.... Yeah RIGHT :rofl2:

NorCalK9.com
05-01-2012, 10:11 AM
^^^ this dude love to argue, stir up crap, a prime example of a keyboard soldier.
Yed.i said some big guys find it TOO SNAPPY. How is that a lie?
You stay going in threads and trying to stir crap up. You offer no real info except to kick n scream and throw your tantrums.
You personally have truly crapped this thread for me. But I got all the info I needed to know that I will keep my .40's...
As for someone shooting 1 caliber better than another? its just another prime example of you not agreeing anf throwing a tantrum

DrMoebius
05-01-2012, 10:33 AM
Since we all are (legally) limited to 10 rounds here in CA, excluding LEO, isn't mag capacity really a non-factor?

daybreak
05-01-2012, 10:57 AM
speed and accuracy kills. 9 is fine with me.

NorCalK9.com
05-01-2012, 11:00 AM
Everyone keeps bringing up speed, wont .22 be faster? Or 380? Aint there alot of rounds that would let you get faster follow up shots with?

Red Devil
05-01-2012, 11:42 AM
I'd love to see how many of these "two body, one head" guys could actually hit a moving target that is shooting back at them twice in the body and once in the head...

As opposed to what...? sprayin'/prayin'/wettin'/dyin'...?


I practice pistol marksmanship w/ my .22's.

I practice Mozambique drills w/ my large caliber tacticals... 2 seconds from the low-ready position.

The G23/180HST works really well for this and has a good natural point so moving targets are less of a problem.


As for them shootin' back...? That is out of my control and, like recoil, I don't tend to notice it at the time. :D


P.S. The "two body" tends to slow'em down a little.

hyperion.excal
05-01-2012, 12:11 PM
Done with this.

Kestryll
05-01-2012, 12:19 PM
Another bonus for .40 is that when there are ammo runs at walmart (election years) there is usually some .40 left on the shelf while .45, 9mm and .22lr are all gone.

That, and only that, is why I finally bought, well traded for, a .40 cal handgun.

Personal opinion is that .40S&W is an answer to a question no one asked.

Kestryll
05-01-2012, 12:21 PM
Wow the Big Troll :troll: is back with another MAJOR FAIL. He is in need of new attention.

wow you are truly incompetent there is whats called SAAMI specification, 9mm will likely blow up before it becomes even with 40 ballistics. An accurate 9 will not beat an accurate 40 because it wont even have the same power :rofl2: you can only load the 9mm with so much powder.

You are indeed a troll infact a big one. Ive seen you troll other threads before. Anyone who looks at your post history will agree with me that you are indeed a thread troll.

Internet warrior. I am done wasting my time on you :18:

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt287/Hyperion_Excal/8306LolCat20Fail-1.jpg

So, now that you have my undivided attention do you think the snide comments, clever little digs and such are going to end well for you?

12voltguy
05-01-2012, 1:22 PM
So, now that you have my undivided attention do you think the snide comments, clever little digs and such are going to end well for you?

don't answer..............I think it's a trick question:TFH: !:D

NorCalK9.com
05-01-2012, 5:16 PM
Crap seriosly? We got the mods in here? Im done with this thread cause I aint trying to get banned.

locosway
05-01-2012, 6:04 PM
That, and only that, is why I finally bought, well traded for, a .40 cal handgun.

Personal opinion is that .40S&W is an answer to a question no one asked.

Once again we see the rarity of the planets aligning and us agreeing on something. Doesn't happen often...

I have a .40 barrel for my G20 which is more than enough .40 for me.

Colt-45
05-01-2012, 7:34 PM
No... It's actually not. Please leave this thread. :rolleyes:

Says the guy who has contributed so much valuable information to this thread.......:rolleyes:

NorCalK9.com
05-01-2012, 7:38 PM
@colt45
You're my hero lol.

LBDamned
05-01-2012, 8:17 PM
WoW~!

This thread turned into one big cluster phuck

1lostinspace
05-02-2012, 6:54 AM
Since we all are (legally) limited to 10 rounds here in CA, excluding LEO, isn't mag capacity really a non-factor?

Not if you had the mags before the ban

fullspeed1
05-02-2012, 8:02 AM
Heart, Brain and Central nervous system. The 3 places you want to hit for true "stopping power". I've seen a women take a .25cal to the right temple point blank with no exit wound, that was completely incapacitated, And a young man take 2 .223 rounds from a mini-14 to his lower left quadrant abdomen with 1 clean exit wound who was walking and talking in minimal distress. If your lucky to hit a major artery, You better make sure your next 3 rounds count. It takes a human being several minutes to bleed out from major vascular trauma. Shot placement, doesn't matter what you use. Think about it......

fullspeed1
05-02-2012, 8:13 AM
That, and only that, is why I finally bought, well traded for, a .40 cal handgun.

Personal opinion is that .40S&W is an answer to a question no one asked.

Wasn't it more of a comment, Along the lines of, "I can't shoot this 10mm round worth a crap!"???

Red Devil
05-02-2012, 1:44 PM
...Personal opinion is that .40S&W is an answer to a question no one asked.

Well...

Back in the early '90's, I was shootin' a stainless Colt Officers .45 ACP w/ 185 grain FAT rounds.

Liked the pistol size and the round, but it was a little heavy, the barrel was a little short, and I had some control issues w/ it... the barrel would flip up 45 deg. and torque 90 deg. to the left.

High capacity 9 mm's were already popular.

So I asked myself why someone hadn't come up w/ a pistol that was the same size as the Colt Officers, but was ~ 1/3 lighter, had a full 4" barrel, and was ~ as controllable as a full-sized .45 ACP...

...and also shot a round w/ the ~ performance of the high sub-sonic 185 grain FAT round, and was high capacity...?


Botta-bing-botta-boom... :D

DrMoebius
05-02-2012, 3:42 PM
Not if you had the mags before the ban Just this weekend, a few friends and I were wondering how the grandfathering of prior hi-cap mags works.

Are you allowed to own and shoot them?
Or, just own them like the current "kit" regulation for new mags? So I asked myself why someone hadn't come up w/ a pistol that was the same size as the Colt Officers, but was ~ 1/3 lighter, had a full 4" barrel, and was ~ as controllable as a full-sized .45 ACP...

...and also shot a round w/ the ~ performance of the high sub-sonic 185 grain FAT round, and was high capacity...? Botta-bing-botta-boom... :D Your post gave me a good chuckle while making its point.

Red Devil
05-03-2012, 7:14 PM
My Buddy's pickin' up his first auto HG this wknd...a G19. (Asked the counter-jerk insteada me... :rolleyes: )

Will recommend he feed it this stuff... it looks awesome.

Federal Tactical HST 9mm 147 gr Test with Denim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY_cJEDxxEI)

Federal HST 9mm 147 gr JHP SIM-TEST wDenim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY_cJEDxxEI)

12voltguy
05-03-2012, 7:32 PM
My Buddy's pickin' up his first auto HG this wknd...a G19. (Asked the counter-jerk insteada me... :rolleyes: )

Will recommend he feed it this stuff... it looks awesome.

Federal Tactical HST 9mm 147 gr Test with Denim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY_cJEDxxEI)

Federal HST 9mm 147 gr JHP SIM-TEST wDenim (Federal Tactical HST 9mm 147 gr Test with Denim)

jerk sold him a fine gun....what is the problem?:rolleyes:
I own 2 g19s 1 g19c 1 std:chris:

NorCalK9.com
05-03-2012, 7:38 PM
I want a g19 as well.

Red Devil
05-03-2012, 7:41 PM
jerk sold him a fine gun....what is the problem?:rolleyes:
I own 2 g19s 1 g19c 1 std:chris:

The problem is the ":rolleyes:" didn't stick to the post.

It was a joke.

(the counter-jerk should have recommended a G23 instead. :D )

12voltguy
05-03-2012, 7:43 PM
The problem is the ":rolleyes:" didn't stick to the post.

It was a joke.

(the counter-jerk should have recommended a G23 instead. :D )

lol
so much cvrap in this thread I didn't catch that:)
I got a 22, 20 21 & the 2 19s
& at least 1 1911,lol

Red Devil
05-04-2012, 8:40 AM
I'll tell ya...

After seein' this test:
Federal HST 9mm 147 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/Denim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRqrJRq4T0)

When similarly compared to my beloved .40W&W/180HST:

.40 Federal HST 180 gr Ammo Gel Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWy2AB_AQYo)


The G19 may be what I get for the wife and kids.

It's an impressive round. A little smaller cavity/canal/expansion, but not by much, and the same ~13 inch penetration.

A little easier and cheaper to shoot too.


Now, Why haven't they shoe-horned a 10-round .45 ACP into the SAME G19/G23 slide/frame...?

Asked... now answer. :D (please, I need one... bad.)

TempleKnight
05-04-2012, 7:28 PM
That, and only that, is why I finally bought, well traded for, a .40 cal handgun.

Personal opinion is that .40S&W is an answer to a question no one asked.

Kes, I think the question was "how do I make major power factor in IPSC Limited class with something that recoils less than a .45?". The "fotay" pretty much owns Limited.

My competition guns are .38 SuperComp and .40 Major; my carry guns are .45and 9MM.

trew10
05-04-2012, 7:52 PM
.40 is literally a larger bullet then the 9mm, but not necessarily better. if bigger is better then answer me this. the AK-47 uses 7.62 and the M4/M16 uses 5.56 , why does the U.S military go with a smaller round?

trew10
05-04-2012, 7:57 PM
we go shooting a lot in the high desert, we shoot on a rocky hillside, when we set up our targets we find tons of .40 bullets on floor with little to no marks on them. i have yet to find a 9mm bullet that is complete on floor they are only small fragments. if the .40 is that much stronger then why is this???

PandaLuv
05-04-2012, 7:59 PM
.40 is literally a larger bullet then the 9mm, but not necessarily better. if bigger is better then answer me this. the AK-47 uses 7.62 and the M4/M16 uses 5.56 , why does the U.S military go with a smaller round?



why is our military interested in .300 blackout?
Why did russians decided to go with 5.45 AK74?

With handguns, there really isnt that much difference when you use JHP. With rifles, it's a whole another story.

BigDogatPlay
05-04-2012, 8:08 PM
Personal opinion is that .40S&W is an answer to a question no one asked.

This is true to a good degree, IMO. The backstory of how it came to be is well known, but it has found a large niche in LEA.

I got into .40 because most of the other agencies in the county I worked in at the time were using it, and my agency went with it as well. Once I started working with it, we used the 165 grain Ranger T load, I found it to be a very good compromise between 9mm and .45, both of which I had used. Heavier bullets than any 9, but not a total sacrifice in mag capacity like most .45s.

No pistol caliber is all things to all situations, but the .40 hits hard and will be very effective if the guy behind the trigger does his part correctly.

trew10
05-04-2012, 8:24 PM
i have shot all 3. 9mm, .40, .45 i like all 3 but i am most accurate with 9mm. in a S.H.T.F situation you wont be dealing with a standing target, you will more then likely be dealing with an aggressive intruder. in this situation i dont think you or perp will really care what caliber your gun is.

Doctor Suarez
05-05-2012, 9:45 AM
With any product designed to bridge a gap between two existing, popular options, you'll get some people who think it's the worst of both. In a marketing class I took, we looked at the examples of a popular crossover car vs. Pat Boone's "In a Metal Mood." Sometimes bridge products alienate both markets, and other times they appeal to them.

Other people are simply macho nuts who resent it for supplanting the 10mm.

I own a 9, a .40, and a .45, and I like them all. Here in CA, 40 often makes more sense than the 9mm. Since we're limited to 10 rounds, and .40 guns are built on the same frames as 9mm pistols, 9mm loses its selling point of increased capacity. That being said, it's still good for its low cost and recoil. When I wanted a subcompact autoloader, I tried the GLOCK 27 and hated it, even though I love my XD .40. So I went with the 26 instead.

Don't let people mess with you. I was into the XD before a lot of people (gun hipster that I am) and people at the range were all weird about it. Six months later it was everywhere. Shoot what you dig!