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View Full Version : If long sight radius=accuracy, does short sight radius = quicker front sight acquisit


Lead Waster
04-27-2012, 5:07 PM
..ion?


(Sorry for the chopped off subject!)

I was thinking, long sight radius definitely means better accuracy. But then does a shorter sight radius let you pick up the front sight a might faster?

You draw the gun, or you move to a new location and bring the gun up to shoot ... will a shorter barrel let you quickly find the front sights in the rear notch faster?

beretta929mm
04-27-2012, 5:52 PM
Speed and accuracy don't mix well together. The trick is to find a balance between the two. No, I don't shoot much.

meaty-btz
04-27-2012, 6:06 PM
Sights can be fast or slow.

Speed can be accurate. Depends on what you are shooting and what kind of sights. Target sights are slow and finely accurate and precise. They enable to you punch out very pretty groups on a paper target, even at great range.

The slow acquisition speed of these wonderful target sights are a liability in combat where second place lands you on a stainless meat slab.

A combat sight is accurate and fast when used properly. They are designed to work within a specific range of the weapon you are using. While you can punch out great groups at 25 yards with a 3" barrel sub compact automatic trying the same at the same range in combat is idiotic. A 3" barrel weapon is NOT meant to be utilized at range. They are designed to be utilized at usually 7-10 yards.

Shooting paper does not prepare you to shoot a living, moving, threatening target. It will get you the basics solid enough but you will be under and improperly trained to use your weapon and sighting in a life or death situation.

You need the correct sight, the correct weapon, and the correct training.

Right tool for the right job.

My subcompact uses Combat Sights. They are blazing fast. As in draw, point, fire. They work perfectly for both eyes open and even target (rather than sight) focus. In a situation where humans are under duress nature says focus on the target. It requires a great deal of training to overcome millions of years of instinct. It can be done, but the better sight is one that works with the natural human target focused instinct. They are horrible for 25 yard bullseye shooting. The harder you focus on perfect sight picture the more your shooting will suffer. Right tool for the right job.

If you are engaging targets at distances of 10-25 yards in a life or death scenario, with a pistol, you need a "full sized" or "service" pistol for effective use. A subcompact is now beyond its effective range. Remember target shooting does not == combat. A subcompact can fire accurately at 25 yards against a nice NRA Paper Target. The same is not true when bullets are flying AT YOU from the Evil NON-PAPER Target.

Even further at 25 yards you are better off with any weapon but a pistol. A shotgun, a short rifle with a red-dot are all better choices in 25-75 yards (shotgun with slug for anything over 25 yards or with a long barrel and choke).

If one gun was a fit all solution there would not be the vast variety of weapons on the market that there are today. Get the right weapon and train train train train. This is your tool that means LIFE. Fail and you get death as a reward.

On the other hand, if all you intend to do is shoot paper, get a nice weapon with target sights and have at it and have a ball.

paul0660
04-27-2012, 6:08 PM
Extend the concept to the extreme.

Answer, no.

But you did know that.

sammy
04-27-2012, 6:11 PM
I don't know if either make any difference.

The best I can group with my G34 (long sight radius) is 3" at 15 yards. Now my G26 I can squeeze out 2" 10 shot groups with consistency. All freehand. Why, I have no idea. Still scratching my head trying to figure it out.

As far as faster follow up shots the G26 and G34 are about the same. Keep in mind I have only had the 26 for a month. The 34 I have had much more trigger time with but just don't shoot as well with it.

wtkaiser
04-27-2012, 6:19 PM
I don't think so. Elmer Keith, who was an exceptional shot from all accounts, used all manner of guns including snubbies to longer barreled (6-8") revolvers and autos. It might have been easier to hit at longer ranges with a longer barrel, but they all would do the job. So it's a question of practice, not equipment.

There's apparently no shortcut for the practice we should put in to become decent shots, sorry.

meaty-btz
04-27-2012, 7:03 PM
I don't think so. Elmer Keith, who was an exceptional shot from all accounts, used all manner of guns including snubbies to longer barreled (6-8") revolvers and autos. It might have been easier to hit at longer ranges with a longer barrel, but they all would do the job. So it's a question of practice, not equipment.

There's apparently no shortcut for the practice we should put in to become decent shots, sorry.

Against Paper or People? I make the distinction because it is a critical one.

Even I can take a snubbie 38 detective special and ring the gong at 50+ yards. It isnt hard. Doing the what is needed to do that against a moving, living, target that is firing back will get me in a morgue.

Sights can be fast, sights can be slow. Sight radius makes it easier on longer shots but you can achieve the same with a properly stabilized bullet from a quality gun out to a very great distance. I have rung steel 2-5 at 200 yards with a .22 Ruger MK2 Bull-nose. No scope, the bullets are "lofted" at that distance but they hit where you point and aim baring wind.

One of these days I will need to setup and sell a combat training target that fires the simulation rounds. Those HURT. Failure should hurt. Better to get a bruise in training than a wife standing next to a coffin when it counts.

Lead Waster
04-28-2012, 12:10 AM
Ok so how are target sights and combat sights different? Larger rear notch? Thinner front post?

HighLander51
04-28-2012, 5:05 AM
..ion?


(Sorry for the chopped off subject!)

I was thinking, long sight radius definitely means better accuracy. But then does a shorter sight radius let you pick up the front sight a might faster?

You draw the gun, or you move to a new location and bring the gun up to shoot ... will a shorter barrel let you quickly find the front sights in the rear notch faster?

no difference, you never take your eyes off the front sight during transition. 'Faster' sights have let in more light.

Lead Waster
04-28-2012, 9:07 AM
I'm thinking in USPSA/IPSC competition, you shoot twice at a target then transition to another, then run, reload, etc.

For the second shot, it takes a touch of time (for me) to reaquire the front sight after a shot. With IPSC, you just need to hit in the "A zone" not a bullseye, so faster combat sights would be handy. So I'm wondering if that means a wider rear notch/slimmer front sight so you can quickly find it and center it then get the shot off.

Then I thought, well, how much does sight radius count for? Higher accuracy? But then Meaty-btz pointed out that beyond a certain distance the pistol is not useful anyway (for combat anyway) and for IPSC/USPSA, that is probably true to some extent as well.

So I thought, OK, then if you shoot a gun with a shorter sight radius, can you reaquire the sight faster? Much like if you put sights on a broomstick, sight down it, then have someone tap the front, the front (and thus the sights) will move much farther. With a stubbier setup, wouldn't the front sight naturally realign faster?

Maybe I'm thinking along the wrong lines.

HighLander51
04-28-2012, 5:26 PM
I'm thinking in USPSA/IPSC competition, you shoot twice at a target then transition to another, then run, reload, etc.

For the second shot, it takes a touch of time (for me) to reaquire the front sight after a shot. With IPSC, you just need to hit in the "A zone" not a bullseye, so faster combat sights would be handy. So I'm wondering if that means a wider rear notch/slimmer front sight so you can quickly find it and center it then get the shot off.

Then I thought, well, how much does sight radius count for? Higher accuracy? But then Meaty-btz pointed out that beyond a certain distance the pistol is not useful anyway (for combat anyway) and for IPSC/USPSA, that is probably true to some extent as well.

So I thought, OK, then if you shoot a gun with a shorter sight radius, can you reaquire the sight faster?

Well, first of all, a 50 yard target, even 75 yards or 100 yards, is not impossible with a handgun, however it takes longer to acquire. I can hit the A zone with my G19 at 75 yards, but just not as fast as 3 yards, by a shot timer for the same hits. Your question is probably difficult to measure on practical basis. For example, my G17, G34 and G17L all have the exact same sights. They all look the same, but the longer sight radius comes with the longer barrel, and more weight, so longer range transitions are moderate by reduced recoil for the same round. I am certain that I can run 3 USPSA targets faster at 7 yards with my G17, but also certain than I can make those same shots on the same targets quicker at 75 yards with my G17L. When I get a little time after the next match, I will video the G17 and G17L at 5 yards and 35 yards, with times and hits, so there is something to compare to. Here are pics of the 3 guns, keeping in mind that all 3 use the G17 frame, so their is no difference in weapon platform except the weight.

http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image35553.jpg

http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image35554.jpg

http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image35555.jpg

http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image35556.jpg

http://www.californiavtxriders.com/phpBB3/gallery/image35557.jpg