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View Full Version : Anybody read/reading the book Glock: The Rise of America's Gun?


tacticalcity
04-25-2012, 1:12 PM
Anybody read/reading the book Glock: The Rise of America's Gun by Paul M Barrett?

Just started reading it.

The first part of the book brings up a good argument against revolvers reliability that revolver fans swear by. It points out how in the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout an FBI agents own flesh and bone from being shot got into the cyclinder and jammed the gun, rendering it useless. Despite being shot, he could have stayed in the fight...but not with a jammed gun. Given that it is a very dirty world out there, you have to wonder how often debris caused jams back when the revolver was the combat handgun choice of the day? In any case, I found that point interesting. Revolver fans use superior reliability to counter any argument you make against them, including capacity and speed of reloading. But if debris can muck up the works by slipping into the exposed cylinder then that shoots the heck out of that argument.

Sturnovik
04-25-2012, 1:25 PM
Don't be hating revolvers!

I'd agree were getting to the point were most modern designs are pretty damn reliable. That said you don't have to "tap rack" a revolver....just pull the trigger again. That said I don't own revolvers anymore. I'm just a much better shot with a pistol.

That said they take very little to maintain...so revolvers have some very good points.

That is if you buy a quality revolver to begin with.......

tacticalcity
04-25-2012, 1:37 PM
Don't be hating revolvers!

I'd agree were getting to the point were most modern designs are pretty damn reliable. That said you don't have to "tap rack" a revolver....just pull the trigger again. That said I don't own revolvers anymore. I'm just a much better shot with a pistol.

That said they take very little to maintain...so revolvers have some very good points.

That is if you buy a quality revolver to begin with.......

Unless it is jammed up by debris, at which point you have a paper weight and will have to rely on your pitching arm. That is the point I was getting at. At least you can get a semi-auto back into the fight in seconds with a malfunction drill.

Not hating on revolvers, just revolver fanboys that dismiss any and all complaints or flaws as irrelevant just because they feel like it.

A gun is a tool. They all have their time and place where they shine best. Right tool for right job, and all that jazz.

Sturnovik
04-25-2012, 1:45 PM
I've read to many stories where officers had a pistol ccw'd and lint or other foreign matter retarded the slides movement and causes an issue. At 3 of my local gunshops there selling j frames and LCR's in droves as they put it.

I can always open the cynlinder and matter should/would fall out, that said the article said this was much more than dirt/hair (blood/bone fragments from how you describe).

Either way pistols in the long run are much more pratical for today's police work and in this modern weapon age. Like I said, I prefer pistol Any day of the week unless this is CCW.

Sturnovik
04-25-2012, 1:46 PM
Wow damn my phone and it's "spellcheck". Ignore the errors ;)

blakdawg
04-25-2012, 2:01 PM
I just finished listening to the book as an audiobook and found it pretty interesting. Was disappointed to hear about shady behavior + mismanagement at Glock Inc. but I still like the guns.

The author offered to speak to a CGN audience in CA if we can get one together, there's an older thread about it.

ojisan
04-25-2012, 2:08 PM
"It points out how in the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout an FBI agents own flesh and bone from being shot got into the cyclinder and jammed the gun, rendering it useless."


Not the best talking point for revolver vs auto.
The chances of this happening (an open and empty cylinder just as the arm is destroyed) is pretty rare.
Any autoloader with the slide locked back for a mag change could suffer similar problems in the same situation....open chamber, open mag well etc.

sneather
04-25-2012, 2:26 PM
As I recall, that incident in Miami was a lesson in WAY more training issues than just a freak occurrence with a jammed revolver.

Zula
04-25-2012, 2:45 PM
Some of the officers had automatics and a couple were carrying revolvers. One of the perps was hit multiple times in the torso and stayed in the fight until he was finally killed. This was the incident that convinced the FBI to switch to the 10mm. The main problem was that one of the perps was armed with a mini-14 and the agents had no long guns.

dscampbell1286
04-25-2012, 4:26 PM
They had body armor and sub machine guns in the trunk of their car. Which they did not put on as it was a hot day. The last bad guy was killed by an agent using a revolver. They had a failure of tactics and were not wearing their body armor. It was too many bad decisions leading to a tragedy. It is similar to the CHP shooting in Newhall.

tacticalcity
04-25-2012, 4:35 PM
Some of the officers had automatics and a couple were carrying revolvers. One of the perps was hit multiple times in the torso and stayed in the fight until he was finally killed. This was the incident that convinced the FBI to switch to the 10mm. The main problem was that one of the perps was armed with a mini-14 and the agents had no long guns.

According to the book the numbers were the opposite. Most had revolvers and only a few guys from a specialized unit had semi-autos. The revolver was the issued weapon of the FBI at the time. Most law enforcement agencies used revolvers at the time.

The book says the incident was the reason the FBI switched to the Glock. Details some intial ammo issues they had using lowest bidder ammo, that cleared up when switching to S&W made ammo. Didn't say anything about 10mm.

Love or hate the Glock, it is an interesting book. I knew most of the big themes already, but there are lots of fine details which are really interesting. Like most successful businesses, timing was everything. It is all well and good to have a great product, but timing and luck really come into play. Along with a lot of really smart moves along the way.

Shows both smart and stupid moves Glock and agencies made since the invention of the Glock. Hind sight being 20/20. Shows how marketing techniques of offering free demo guns for departments, free training for departments switching to them, offering law enforcement discounts, and giving bigger discounts for departments that traded-in their old guns for newer ones won over agency after agency. Eventually even the NYPD which had a ban on the Glock. Meanwhile efforts from the anti-gunners and weary agency heads to label it as a "Hijacking Special" only resulted in greater civilian sales as people wanted to know what all the fuss was about.

tacticalcity
04-25-2012, 4:51 PM
Wow damn my phone and it's "spellcheck". Ignore the errors ;)

I spell like crap even when using a regular keyboard...so I won't hold that against ya!

elSquid
04-25-2012, 5:11 PM
The book says the incident was the reason the FBI switched to the Glock. Details some intial ammo issues they had using lowest bidder ammo, that cleared up when switching to S&W made ammo. Didn't say anything about 10mm.

As a result of the shootout, the FBI issued the S&W 1076 in 10mm for a few years.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

Anywho, probably the best link as to what happened in the actual incident:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

-- Michael

tbhracing
04-25-2012, 5:13 PM
Article reference link- http://news.cnet.com/8301-13639_3-57365388-42/innovation-brought-the-rise-of-the-glock-handgun/

Listen to the GOOD interview- http://www.npr.org/2012/01/24/145640473/how-the-glock-became-americas-weapon-of-choice

tacticalcity
04-25-2012, 5:26 PM
As a result of the shootout, the FBI issued the S&W 1076 in 10mm for a few years.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

Anywho, probably the best link as to what happened in the actual incident:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

-- Michael

Ok, cool.

In any case, I am busy with this book for now. Getting a change to read is a luxury. Usually too darn busy for it. I've been indulging myself in that regard lately. Reading when I can, listening to audio books when I cannot. Will get to checking out your links when I am done.

The book is an interesting read. I think even Glock haters will enjoy it, if only to yell at the author. Seriously though it is as much about the evolution of handguns in America as it is about the Glock.

capturedlive
04-25-2012, 5:47 PM
I just finished the book last week and also found it very interesting-- so much so, I put a down on a 19 (I wasn't ready to buy another gun, but I was caught up so I committed). I especially appreciated the fact that the author didn't have a dog in the race and was pretty darn objective. I was also impressed how, despite all the behind-the-scenes crapola, the company always seemed to do the right thing at just the right time. Dumb luck?

Can't buy anything here
04-25-2012, 6:21 PM
Apples and oranges...Autos like the Glock or Beretta are more reliable than revolvers under adverse conditions like you would find in combat...a gun left in a draw or holster for years without any maintenance goes to the revolver...I think most of us fall into the latter category.

Sturnovik
04-25-2012, 8:03 PM
Apples and oranges...Autos like the Glock or Beretta are more reliable than revolvers under adverse conditions like you would find in combat...a gun left in a draw or holster for years without any maintenance goes to the revolver...I think most of us fall into the latter category.

+1. Pretty much how I'd say it.

tacticalcity
04-25-2012, 8:14 PM
Apples and oranges...Autos like the Glock or Beretta are more reliable than revolvers under adverse conditions like you would find in combat...a gun left in a draw or holster for years without any maintenance goes to the revolver...I think most of us fall into the latter category.

Not the way I train with them. But I admit, it is truly a shame how many guns are carried often and shot little. When I shop for a gun, I'm worried about how I plan to use it, not how others would. But I am not scared away from police trade-ins for the reason you mention. Few people, even law enforcement, train the way they should. Even for officers that are total gun nuts, life gets in the way. After shift hours that would ideally be spent at the range get skipped to rush home and help out the wife with the three kids and the dog. They know they should train harder, that they need to train harder, but telling the wife she needs to cool her jets so he can stay late once a week so he can spend a couple hours at the range doesn't fly...because he enjoys it she equates it to him playing while she is neck deep in diapers...which leads to just more friction he just doesn't need. Nevermind that as a beat cop in a crappy area, regular training could mean the difference between coming home and not coming home at all permenently. The immediate need to get help with the kids comes first. Seen that one happen again and again with my married LE friends. Pretty soon they are the crappiest shot in our group of gun nuts, when they started off as one of the best. No imagine how often a cop that hates guns gets to the range...when guys who love it rarely do. Not everyone is in that boat, but enough are that's become the stereotype.