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View Full Version : stabilization while aiming?


Aznatama
04-23-2012, 8:46 PM
I really don't get how anyone can have a limp wrist. I was reading about limp wrist, and was completely befuddled about WTF people were talking about, so I did some research. Then I found out what it was, and tried to hold my sig the same way. There's no stability whatsoever if your wrist isn't firm in the first place! how do you even aim w/ a limp wrist?

I've always used the push-pull method when aiming, and have gotten rather good results. push w/ strong hand, pull w/ weak hand to stabilize the pistol while aiming.

one handed is another deal altogether though... I make a fist w/ my weak hand while flexing almost every muscle in my strong hand and upper torso to create as stable platform as possible.

how do you guys stabilize yourselves while shooting?

Mr.1904
04-24-2012, 1:30 PM
Limp wristing can be a few different things.

Weak hold of the grip. Wrong placement of hands on the grip.

Limp wristing is just a generalization of how people incorrectly hold, and grip their pistols. The wrong grip, or not having your hands gripping the pistol correctly can cause failures in said pistol. Limp wristing is usually more common with new shooters.

When it comes to "stabilization" of my pistol i use a thumbs forward grip. It was explained to me that you want as much of your hands on the pistol as possible. The more grip you have the better off you should be.

Low-Pressure
04-24-2012, 2:11 PM
I really don't get how anyone can have a limp wrist. I was reading about limp wrist, and was completely befuddled about WTF people were talking about, so I did some research. Then I found out what it was, and tried to hold my sig the same way. There's no stability whatsoever if your wrist isn't firm in the first place! how do you even aim w/ a limp wrist?

I've always used the push-pull method when aiming, and have gotten rather good results. push w/ strong hand, pull w/ weak hand to stabilize the pistol while aiming.

one handed is another deal altogether though... I make a fist w/ my weak hand while flexing almost every muscle in my strong hand and upper torso to create as stable platform as possible.

how do you guys stabilize yourselves while shooting?

Sorry, not everybody was born a Jedi Master! :rolleyes:

44fred
04-24-2012, 2:54 PM
I guess we all figure it out eventually. Limp wrist symptom is something I've never experienced myself but have heard of. Tension is something I avoid as well. Firing rifles and learning to relax while doing so is very different than handguns. You need a soft yet firm grip with most calibers. Once you start firing magnums, all bets are off and you can get bit. Every precision handgun shooter I've ever seen are pretty relaxed with their grip. Speed shooting with full defense rounds, not so relaxed. My S&W .460V is fired relaxed but firm. My Ruger Single Six is very relaxed indeed. My S&W 340PD with full house magnums will kick your butt if you don't hold on tight. Come to think of it, it's a butt kicker no matter what with magnums.

If someone is having FTF issues, give the gun to a buddy to try with the same ammo. If the problem persists, it's probably the gun and or ammo. Some of the cheap Winchester ammo at Wal Mart just won't cycle reliably so I no longer buy it.

Tensing up muscles in any precision endeavor will never work well.

tacticalcity
04-24-2012, 3:10 PM
Semiautos need the force you are applying to them to hold the frame relatively in place. Enough force needs to applied so that the slide can come back far enough to chamber a new round. If you fail to provide enough force, or improperly apply that force, the slide will not come back far enough and you get failure to feeds, and partially fed rounds. That is "limp writings". It may not be your wrist that is problem. It could be your entire arm is too soft, or your stance is wishy washy. But most of the time it is your wrist not being locked that is the problem.

Taking a professional firearms course, particularly a Tactical Pistol I or Defensive Handgun I course will teach the text book firing platforms that prevent limp wristing. See the Competition, Action-Shooting and Training Section here on Calguns for an AD for a course near you. www.gofast1.com has a level 1 course coming in May. They are located in Sacramento. The course is 1 full day, runs around $160, and you bring your own equipment (see their website for more details).

9mmepiphany
04-24-2012, 8:33 PM
Tension is something I avoid as well. Firing rifles and learning to relax while doing so is very different than handguns.
Not really that different.

Much as you don't grip the semi-pistolgrip of a bolt action rifle stock with your thumb, you shouldn't be doing that when shooting a handgun either. The difference is that while you use your lower three fingers to pull the butt stock of a rifle into your shoulder, you use the same fingers to pull the buttframe of a pistol into the pocket in the palm of your hand.

When shooting quickly, the strong hand does remain fairly relaxed (for better trigger management), while most of the gripping force (lateral) is accomplished with the support hand. The technique for fast and accurate handgun shooting is to encircle the grip in a 360 degree grip and hold it using static pressure, rather than trying to muscle it in place

9mmepiphany
04-24-2012, 8:33 PM
double click

USMC 82-86
04-24-2012, 9:25 PM
I never white knuckle grip any gun. I use a firm support base "arms" with a slight bend to help with recoil. The hands are firmly on the gun but relaxed enough for a smooth trigger press. When I shoot fast I relax even more and just let the gun do its thing. It will return to the same spot every time if you let it, but you have to maintain a constant pressure and don't fight the gun. It has always worked for me.

wjc
04-24-2012, 9:56 PM
I never white knuckle grip any gun. I use a firm support base "arms" with a slight bend to help with recoil. The hands are firmly on the gun but relaxed enough for a smooth trigger press. When I shoot fast I relax even more and just let the gun do its thing. It will return to the same spot every time if you let it, but you have to maintain a constant pressure and don't fight the gun. It has always worked for me.

+1

This is sort of the method I use.

I have fairly strong hands so my grip on the pistol is not a problem and I basically let my arms and shoulders relax. My arms are straight out a'la Rob Pincus' method and my body naturally sets into position.

Aznatama
04-25-2012, 1:59 AM
Interesting. Anyone here have techniques for single hand shooting? it's always been the most difficult for me.

I don't "grip" the pistol, but push/pull I guess is more of a static pressure or whatnot. Hard to describe, but fingers aren't really "gripping" Regardless, 2-handed shotting isn't a problem at 1sec per shot. Any faster and I really have no idea if any changes would be beneficial. not to mention the expense of training at that speed.

rifle shooting in the standing position's another weakspot of mine... but I guess that's a totally different discussion.

tacticalcity
04-25-2012, 2:20 AM
Again, take a professional course. Problem solved. You are not going to get the information you need via post. You need to do it in real life with an instruction not only showing you how, but standing over your shoulder correcting any flaws. You can't get want you need by reading words off a screen or even watching a video (although the later is helpful as refresher material when practicing during dry fire).

1 second per shot is entirely too damn long for self defense. That is the literal definition of plinking. Plinking is fun...but not "training".

You need to be able to draw and fire a controlled pair, failure to stop drill, or non-standard response in a fraction of second with all shots being no wider than a hand spread wide for body shots and right on target for occular cavity shots. That is defensive/combat shooting. That is what you will learn in a course, and that is what it takes to win/surive an actual gun fight. It is the perfect balance of speed and accuracy. Going as fast as you can without sending any shots to whom it may concern and getting good effective stopping shots...all before he/they can shoot you.

Cost of ammo is irrelevant and insignificant compared to actually being competent with your side arm. After all, what is your life worth?

I recommend a course for the rifle as well. Running and gunning CQB training is VERY different from long range shooting from prone or the bench rest.

What is taught during basic training doesn't translate well to real life. That is mostly just marksmanship. It is only a starting point and not the entire puzzle. Which is why the military gives more advanced training to units that needed it. That training is commercially available for $160-$200 per day. See the Competition, Action-Shooting and Training Section here on Calguns for a course near you.

scotty99
04-25-2012, 5:02 AM
Interesting. Anyone here have techniques for single hand shooting? it's always been the most difficult for me.

I don't "grip" the pistol, but push/pull I guess is more of a static pressure or whatnot. Hard to describe, but fingers aren't really "gripping" Regardless, 2-handed shotting isn't a problem at 1sec per shot. Any faster and I really have no idea if any changes would be beneficial. not to mention the expense of training at that speed.

rifle shooting in the standing position's another weakspot of mine... but I guess that's a totally different discussion.

In competition, they teach us to rotate the gun slightly inward when shooting one-handed, like maybe rotated to 11 o'clock for right hand, one o'clock for left. It feels odd at first, but it does seem to be effective. Just don't get too carried away and go full sideways gangsta or you will be asked to leave any decent range.

Aznatama
04-25-2012, 9:41 AM
Again, take a professional course. Problem solved. You are not going to get the information you need via post. You need to do it in real life with an instruction not only showing you how, but standing over your shoulder correcting any flaws. You can't get want you need by reading words off a screen or even watching a video (although the later is helpful as refresher material when practicing during dry fire).

1 second per shot is entirely too damn long for self defense. That is the literal definition of plinking. Plinking is fun...but not "training".

You need to be able to draw and fire a controlled pair, failure to stop drill, or non-standard response in a fraction of second with all shots being no wider than a hand spread wide for body shots and right on target for occular cavity shots. That is defensive/combat shooting. That is what you will learn in a course, and that is what it takes to win/surive an actual gun fight. It is the perfect balance of speed and accuracy. Going as fast as you can without sending any shots to whom it may concern and getting good effective stopping shots...all before he/they can shoot you.

Cost of ammo is irrelevant and insignificant compared to actually being competent with your side arm. After all, what is your life worth?

I recommend a course for the rifle as well. Running and gunning CQB training is VERY different from long range shooting from prone or the bench rest.

What is taught during basic training doesn't translate well to real life. That is mostly just marksmanship. It is only a starting point and not the entire puzzle. Which is why the military gives more advanced training to units that needed it. That training is commercially available for $160-$200 per day. See the Competition, Action-Shooting and Training Section here on Calguns for a course near you.


I do realize that training is key, but time and cost are what prevents me from going, being in grad school and whatnot.

I got plenty of tactical rifle training on the m16/m4 platform when I deployed, and CQB vs live targets w/ sim-rounds (that ***** hurts). Just little/none pistol training aside from basics.

jakuda
04-25-2012, 1:01 PM
Limp wrist doesn't have as much to do with perceived stability during aiming as you think.

For one-handed shooting, which is what I do almost exclusively, it matters little to accuracy (although follow up shots and jamming are other issues). The Army marksmanship guide is a standard document (although I discount their section on natural-point-of-aim).

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm

Bug Splat
04-25-2012, 1:17 PM
Shooting a semi-auto pistol reliably and accurately is a lot harder than most people think especially one handed. The muscles in your hand and forearm are not used to working so independently. Try to grip the gun hard enough to maintain control yet not limp wrist and still keep your trigger finger loose and independent is not easy. Too little grip pressure and you end up pulling your shots, too little and your limp wrist. If your forearm is too tense you end up pushing the shots down. There is no "how-to" on solving your own muscle issues. Only way is to hit the range and keep practicing until the shots go where you want. I good grip and form can and should be used but your muscle need to learn how to work independently much like learning to play the guitar or piano. You can read all the book about guitar playing in the world and have the best teacher explain everything but unless you pick up the guitar and feel it out you will never learn.

jakuda
04-25-2012, 1:22 PM
I do realize that training is key, but time and cost are what prevents me from going, being in grad school and whatnot.

I got plenty of tactical rifle training on the m16/m4 platform when I deployed, and CQB vs live targets w/ sim-rounds (that ***** hurts). Just little/none pistol training aside from basics.

Dryfire. Cheapest practice available.
I always suggest dryfiring at home, as if you were at the range with a gunny sergeant standing behind you. Meaning focused, getting in stance, and guessing how each "shot" went. 15 minutes of focused practice is more valuable than an hour dryfiring on the couch watching TV imho.

Regarding one-handed stance. I get in a bullseye stance, where chest is pointing almost 90 degrees away from the target and my right shoulder is pointed towards the target. Left/weak hand is in pocket or thumb hooked in waist band, this is to prevent the weak arm from moving your torso during recoil. It sounds like you're in a combat type stance where you're hunched over and chest facing target. I guess if you're in that stance you would need to tense all your muscles. Bullseye shooters want the opposite. We let our skeleton support our body and only grip the gun firm enough to somewhat control recoil and to let the slide cycle properly. We stand straight (more at ease versus at attention) Otherwise, pretty much every other muscle is relaxed.

tacticalcity
04-25-2012, 3:37 PM
I hear ya. My first course was a gift from a family friend when I was 23, 15 years ago. I have been hooked ever since and try and take 1 course per year. But I cannot always afford to travel to the big name schools outside the state. So I was stoked to find schools inside CA that offer 1 day courses. Even then, 1 or 2 a year is about all I can afford to do time wise. Wish I could do 1 per month.

While you are wrapping up gradschool wesites like this may help...

http://firearms.atactv.com/

Site is kinda tricky to use. Click on Category button. Then select category below. Then (and this is the important part) click on the video of choice below. It will not automatically start playing once in the category. That always trips me up.

Site is free. Very informative, the techniques taught are effective and you cannot beat the price.

Lead Waster
04-25-2012, 3:40 PM
I watched that Todd Jarett video that everyone links too and use that. Actually a lot of people do. Isoceles stance, with the thumbs forward awkward-for-weak-hand grip.

wjc
04-25-2012, 9:47 PM
Interesting. Anyone here have techniques for single hand shooting? it's always been the most difficult for me.

I don't "grip" the pistol, but push/pull I guess is more of a static pressure or whatnot. Hard to describe, but fingers aren't really "gripping" Regardless, 2-handed shotting isn't a problem at 1sec per shot. Any faster and I really have no idea if any changes would be beneficial. not to mention the expense of training at that speed.

rifle shooting in the standing position's another weakspot of mine... but I guess that's a totally different discussion.

I also practice shooting as they did in this picture. I practice loading and firing strong hand as well as weak hand. It's just another way of practicing for any contingency.

I read too many C.B. Colby books as a kid I guess.

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