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BaronW
04-26-2007, 10:24 AM
Firearms on School Grounds
It is unlawful for any person to possess or bring a firearm upon the grounds of, into, or
within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school providing instruction in
kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or a campus of the University of California,
California State University, or California community colleges. (Penal Code 626.9.)


Exceptions
[...]
• If the firearm is an unloaded handgun in a locked container or within the locked
trunk of a motor vehicle, or the otherwise lawful transportation of an unloaded long
gun.
[...]
• Any person authorized to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Penal Code section
12050.


Does this mean that as a UC student who lives on-campus, I can keep a lawfully owned, unloaded handgun in my trunk? What about a loaded long gun? I realize that it'll do me little to no good in the event of an actual emergency, but it would help me sleep a bit better at night, particularly after VT.

Does the second bullet point mean CCW permits are valid on campus? Seems too good to be true.

AJAX22
04-26-2007, 10:56 AM
I think that means you can sling an AR over your shoulder and walk through campus as long as the magazine is in your hand and not in the gun.

however campus policy, the reactions of the public, bransishing laws etc. probably will come into effect.

but you can keep a shotgun unloaded and locked in the trunk while at school (doesn't everybody?)

with the added requirements for keeping a handgun (locked container etc) it doesn't pay to keep a pistol when you can have a rifle.

ocabj
04-26-2007, 11:10 AM
CCW permits are valid on a UC campus. I remember when we all had to go to a mandatory "Violence in the Workplace" workshop and the CCW was the only legal method (that the UC Police Chief mentioned) to having a firearm on campus.

ask80
04-26-2007, 11:14 AM
also pray that no one breaks into your car and steals your guns.

CalNRA
04-26-2007, 11:18 AM
Does this mean that as a UC student who lives on-campus, I can keep a lawfully owned, unloaded handgun in my trunk? What about a loaded long gun? I realize that it'll do me little to no good in the event of an actual emergency, but it would help me sleep a bit better at night, particularly after VT.

Does the second bullet point mean CCW permits are valid on campus? Seems too good to be true.

I know Berkeley has a campus policy of no guns whatsoever without a permit. I'll try to dig it up, I believe the UC president made the rule. The dorms are gun-free zones as well.

here is a link from UCOP(University of California Office of the President):

http://www.ucop.edu/ucophome/coordrev/policy/8-16-99gun.html

the letter was contradictory to the actual law that was quoted, since the law clearly says unloaded, licked handguns are kosher as well as unloaded long guns. but the chancellors and PD are out of control in their policies and practices.

the police will go out of their way to enforce the penal code to and beyond the letter of the law. Folding knives are grounds for arrest from the horse's mouth.

E Pluribus Unum
04-26-2007, 11:27 AM
Folding knives are grounds for arrest from the horse's mouth.

Folding knives are not illegal.

Socal858
04-26-2007, 11:34 AM
CCW permits are valid on a UC campus. I remember when we all had to go to a mandatory "Violence in the Workplace" workshop and the CCW was the only legal method (that the UC Police Chief mentioned) to having a firearm on campus.

but that only pertains to campus employees and not students, right?

BaronW
04-26-2007, 12:09 PM
but that only pertains to campus employees and not students, right?

What about students that work on-campus?

ocabj
04-26-2007, 12:19 PM
Beats me. As far as I know, a CCW is a CCW regardless of your status on campus.

As far as the UC and the gun free zone issue, I can't give a legal comment either way. I know that the previous Dean of Student Judical Affairs had a CCW and carried on campus (sometime around 1998-2003).

As far as knives, folding knives are legal on a UC campus. There was a thread on Calguns which discusses this issue.

grammaton76
04-26-2007, 12:20 PM
the letter was contradictory to the actual law that was quoted, since the law clearly says unloaded, licked handguns are kosher as well as unloaded long guns. but the chancellors and PD are out of control in their policies and practices.

How often do you have to lick them?

ocabj
04-26-2007, 12:24 PM
I've been tempted these past several months to apply for a CCW even though I'll get denied.

But I figure, it'll be nice to have that denied application on record in the event I get killed in a V-Tech style massacre (or even a simple mugging -- which is frequent -- on campus), my family has grounds for a suit or some manner to get more money to survive after I'm gone aside from the measily life insurance policy I have through the University.

DSA_FAL
04-26-2007, 12:31 PM
Baron, which UC do you go to?

Socal858
04-26-2007, 12:42 PM
Beats me. As far as I know, a CCW is a CCW regardless of your status on campus.

As far as the UC and the gun free zone issue, I can't give a legal comment either way. I know that the previous Dean of Student Judical Affairs had a CCW and carried on campus (sometime around 1998-2003).

As far as knives, folding knives are legal on a UC campus. There was a thread on Calguns which discusses this issue.

i think theres something on some stupid code or pile of jumbled crap that says students may not carry. not sure though. but i dont think there is anything mentioned there for employees

Librarian
04-26-2007, 3:14 PM
Does this mean that as a UC student who lives on-campus, I can keep a lawfully owned, unloaded handgun in my trunk? What about a loaded long gun? I realize that it'll do me little to no good in the event of an actual emergency, but it would help me sleep a bit better at night, particularly after VT.

Does the second bullet point mean CCW permits are valid on campus? Seems too good to be true.
First part, locked and unloaded, is passing through the 1000 foot radius, or passing through the campus if a public road happens to pass through the campus.

2nd part, yes, handguns are legal on UC with CCW.

3rd, folding knives are legal on UC; but UC (and CSU) cops apparently have the attitude of "we don't want them, let people fight it out with the DA". So arrest seems likely, conviction, well, who knows? On the other hand, lots of people do carry knives on college campuses - I just did for the last 4 years - and get no hassle.

And the U certainly could fire employees, expel students for violations of school rules.

wutzu
04-26-2007, 3:30 PM
I've been tempted these past several months to apply for a CCW even though I'll get denied.

But I figure, it'll be nice to have that denied application on record in the event I get killed in a V-Tech style massacre (or even a simple mugging -- which is frequent -- on campus), my family has grounds for a suit or some manner to get more money to survive after I'm gone aside from the measily life insurance policy I have through the University.

Hate to rain on your parade here, but existing case law indicates this suit would have less than a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

ETA: Check out Castle Rock v. Gonzalez, Deshaney v. Winnebago County, among others.
ETA2: Warren v. D.C., Hartzler v. San Jose, Riss v. NYC, Balistreri v. Pacifica PD
ETA3: This little gemCalifornia Government Code s. 845
Neither a public entity nor a public employee is liable for
failure to establish a police department or otherwise to provide
police protection service or, if police protection service is
provided, for failure to provide sufficient police protection
service.

BaronW
04-26-2007, 3:41 PM
I'm at Irvine, so investing in a handgun and trying to get a CCW won't be a waste of time. In the mean time, however, unloaded long gun in the trunk sounds good.

ocabj
04-26-2007, 3:41 PM
Hate to rain on your parade here, but existing case law indicates this suit would have less than a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

ETA: Check out Castle Rock v. Gonzalez, Deshaney v. Winnebago County, among others.

Well, I guess my ghost will just haunt the campus, then.

Knauga
04-26-2007, 3:49 PM
I've been tempted these past several months to apply for a CCW even though I'll get denied.

But I figure, it'll be nice to have that denied application on record in the event I get killed in a V-Tech style massacre (or even a simple mugging -- which is frequent -- on campus), my family has grounds for a suit or some manner to get more money to survive after I'm gone aside from the measily life insurance policy I have through the University.

Move to San Bernardino county :D

With a CCW it is legal to carry at any school, there is even an exception listed in the Federal gun free school laws (whatever that silly law is called). School policy might say you will be expelled, but you cannot be prosecuted under the law.

CalNRA
04-26-2007, 8:41 PM
How often do you have to lick them?

as soon as you finish clicking your heels three hundred and forty-five times. then you are safe.

quote[Folding knives are not illegal.[/quote]

by the letter of the law they aren't. But that wouldn't stop the PD from arresting you and the Administration from expelling you. You might not go to jail, but your life will be ruined.

Pulsar
04-26-2007, 9:53 PM
Move to Lassen College and head to the college there. I have a rifle or handgun on me at all times ;)

lets see, today I brought to school with me, a Marlin 336, Ruger 10/22, Colt DA .38, Model 70, Rem 700 and a Colt 1991A1.

Librarian
04-26-2007, 10:25 PM
Hate to rain on your parade here, but existing case law indicates this suit would have less than a snowball's chance in hell of winning.All true in the general case. Are there cases where a 'civilian' HAD the means for self defense, laws denied the possession of it, and lack of the means resulted in harm (as in Susan Gratia Hupp, for example), and then the injured party sued for relief? Quite different from police not providing a service/protection, I think.

I wonder if SGH tried to sue.... I don't see anything yea/nay on Google about it.

Moonclip
04-26-2007, 11:42 PM
as soon as you finish clicking your heels three hundred and forty-five times. then you are safe.

quote[Folding knives are not illegal.

by the letter of the law they aren't. But that wouldn't stop the PD from arresting you and the Administration from expelling you. You might not go to jail, but your life will be ruined.[/QUOTE]


How would they arrest you for a crime that does not exist? I do believe they would try to expel someone though.

Number 6
04-27-2007, 1:55 AM
How would they arrest you for a crime that does not exist? I do believe they would try to expel someone though

They can pick you up for many legal activities that they believe are illegal and just let the charges be thrown out in court. Just because something is legal does not mean that you cannot be arrested and have to pay lawyers to have the charges thrown out.

I have seen several of my students on the UC campus I work at carry folding knives, so there are at least some that carry them. I have considered carrying my knife, but have opted not to, since I am much more visible to both the campus PD and the administration than an undergraduate, and I really do not want to give up the three years already invested into my PhD.

As to firearms, I have always thought that they were explicitly prohibited on campus, but honestly I have never really looked into this since I live off campus. Just quickly searching UCI's website I have found these two references.

http://www.police.uci.edu/perl/askofficer.cgi?mode=topic&ID=71
http://www.students.uci.edu/judicial/appendix-i.php

Moonclip
04-27-2007, 1:58 AM
Could one sue for this though and have a decent case?

BaronW
04-27-2007, 8:21 AM
They can pick you up for many legal activities that they believe are illegal and just let the charges be thrown out in court. Just because something is legal does not mean that you cannot be arrested and have to pay lawyers to have the charges thrown out.

I have seen several of my students on the UC campus I work at carry folding knives, so there are at least some that carry them. I have considered carrying my knife, but have opted not to, since I am much more visible to both the campus PD and the administration than an undergraduate, and I really do not want to give up the three years already invested into my PhD.

As to firearms, I have always thought that they were explicitly prohibited on campus, but honestly I have never really looked into this since I live off campus. Just quickly searching UCI's website I have found these two references.

http://www.police.uci.edu/perl/askofficer.cgi?mode=topic&ID=71
http://www.students.uci.edu/judicial/appendix-i.php

They conveniently neglected to list the entire code, which makes exceptions.

And look at what I found from the ask-a-cop link! :D
http://www.police.uci.edu/perl/askofficer.cgi?mode=topic&ID=514
This guy basically asked exactly what I would have. Kudos to UCI PD for having this kind of communication posted on the internet, and thanks number 6 for directing me to it.

PanzerAce
04-27-2007, 9:42 AM
UC Merced student here *waves*

I have talked with the LEO on campus, and basicly, the situation RE: Knives and guns at UCM specifically is this: Knives are not going to be an issue unless you are known to be a trouble makers, and other than that, they will only be an issue if you make it an issue (brandishing, etc). As for firearms: With regards to the 'locked in the trunk' stuff, that is grounds for expulsion if they discover that you have a firearm in the vehicle, since it is against UC regs to have a gun on campus with out the express written consent of the chancellor or his/her designated representative (the PD commander). CCW however allows you to carry on campus, and while you don't even have to tell the PD that you are carrying, they would prefer, for everyone's sake, that you told them ahead of time.

ldivinag
04-27-2007, 11:19 AM
attached is a scan from a yearbook from cal state hayward circa 1960s...

sigh...

Number 6
04-27-2007, 2:09 PM
They conveniently neglected to list the entire code, which makes exceptions.

And look at what I found from the ask-a-cop link! :D
http://www.police.uci.edu/perl/askofficer.cgi?mode=topic&ID=514
This guy basically asked exactly what I would have. Kudos to UCI PD for having this kind of communication posted on the internet, and thanks number 6 for directing me to it.

No problem, but just remember that not all of your TAs are against the right to bear arms even in departments where you would not expect it. ;)

socalguns
04-28-2007, 12:16 AM
From
California Knife Laws: A Comprehensive Guide

http://www.equalccw.com/knifelaw.html#SECTION%20THREE

Short form: K-12 schools, no knife over 2.5" is legal except for certain work-related types (kitchen stuff for the chef, etc.). At Universities and Colleges, there's a ban on FIXED BLADES bigger than 2.5" but there's no problems with large folding knives that are otherwise not switchblades under PC653k.

Yankee Clipper
04-28-2007, 10:14 AM
The Orange County Register this morning printed an AP article entitled 'Campuses Questioning Their Gun Policies'. Couldn't find a link for it so I could post it here but the title says it all. There is more dialogue elsewhere on the internet regarding that same subject.

Socal858
04-28-2007, 10:53 AM
As for firearms: With regards to the 'locked in the trunk' stuff, that is grounds for expulsion if they discover that you have a firearm in the vehicle, since it is against UC regs to have a gun on campus with out the express written consent of the chancellor or his/her designated representative (the PD commander). CCW however allows you to carry on campus, and while you don't even have to tell the PD that you are carrying, they would prefer, for everyone's sake, that you told them ahead of time.

this is still confusing:confused:

so UC regs dont allow firearms PERIOD, but you can carry wtih CCW?

so who allows what?

the way im reading it, so the law allows you to CCW but if faculty finds out you are expelled? clear this up for me, it makes no sense

Librarian
04-28-2007, 12:11 PM
this is still confusing:confused:

so UC regs dont allow firearms PERIOD, but you can carry wtih CCW?

so who allows what?

the way im reading it, so the law allows you to CCW but if faculty finds out you are expelled? clear this up for me, it makes no senseTwo levels of law and policy.

STATE has an exception to 'no guns on campus' for CCW in law

UNIV seems often to have a policy "no guns, no exceptions".

UNIV can enforce policy however it wants. For students, that seems to be expulsion. For staff, it seems to be firing.

I'd guess they don't plan to be sued for enforcing a policy against specifically legal behavior, and that they feel it would be better to fight each occurrence in court rather than pre-emptively come to their collective senses.

If such a suit were brought, I'd like to think the policy would be overridden, but until a decision is made in court we can't know.