View Full Version : Is it worth it? Yes yes yes.

04-25-2007, 5:20 PM
This thread is to reply to the thread "A little research. Is it worth it?"

Now it is very understandable the vast differences in numbers when comparing the US vs. UK. Since guns are illegal there. But as you can see, there are many more murders in the US then in the UK. I believe the reason is firearms.
While the per capita numbers are technically more accurate, you're forgetting that we have many more areas of dense population than the UK. Areas of dense population always have higher crime rates, and since the UK doesn't have as many of these areas as we do, there needs to be another adjustment for the numbers to be accurate. You should also note that most of London (their high crime area) is covered by CCTV. Big brother at its finest. Are you willing to sacrifice your privacy for security? Mr. Franklin has a quote for people like that.

850 vs. 12,658 is a HUGE gap. It is very easy (relativity speaking) psychologically to point a gun and pull the trigger. It is much harder to go up to someone and stab them multiple times.
There's no doubt about it; a gun is the most effective weapon for killing another human being. But you're just focusing on the negative of this, the malevolent uses. Guns make killing easy, which makes them an equalizer. This can be a good thing if you are at the disadvantage. The old and frail can protect themselves from the young and strong. The 100 pound woman can protect herself from a 300 pound rapist. The few can protect themselves from many. And, as in the case of VTech, regular people just trying to live their lives can protect themselves from a deranged psychotic bent on murdering as many people as he can before turning the gun on himself. Perhaps you'd be comfortable in a knife fight with someone larger and stronger or against more than one person, but I'd rather have the gun.

Now lets be honest here guys, if guns were outlawed there would be less murder in the US. It is obvious that, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." but that's the same thing as saying, "SUVs don't produce excess emissions, people who drive their SUVs do." Guns make it much easier to kill someone.
If guns were outlawed there would be less murder in the US??? What is your comment about the ~32 states that have right to carry laws, and little or no gun control? What about the fact that many of these states that have seen a decrease in violent crime after passing "right to carry" laws and getting rid of restrictions? Are those states going to enjoy a lower murder rate if we disarm them? If so, why did they enjoy a decrease in violence when they did the opposite? It's not as obvious as you think.

"SUVs don't produce excess emissions, people who drive their SUVs do." Actually that's right. If the SUV sits on the lot, it produces no emissions. It's simply a tool. Without a human operator it can do almost no harm. You seem to be implying that tools that make it easier to commit malicious acts are somehow to blame for those acts, and that's called projection.

Now the obvious argument for this is, "If we outlaw weapons here - the bad guys would still get them and the law abiding citizens would be like fish in a barrel!" Why is it not like that in England? Next rebuttal that would come to my mind would be, "Because England is an island, we're in the US, we are bordered by 2 other countries." Well if I am not mistaken, every time I drive into Mexico there is a sign in San Diego that says "No Guns in Mexico". How hard do you think it would be to get a gun into the UK illegally? I doubt it is any harder then the US. Same goes for Ammo. Smuggling pieces of metal with no scents is much easier then smuggling drugs that dogs can pick up in less then a second.
Washington DC has proven that bans don't work. Nothing is going to change that fact. If there was no place in America where guns were banned, we would just be speculating, but DC is proof that gun bans just don't work. Guns will always find their way into America just as any banned good will find it's way into places with bans. All the crack-downs and threats and laws in the world won't change this fact.

By the way, England is also experiencing a dramatic increase in youth gang crime. Most of these attacks are committed with little more than loose bricks. Most of these kids find themselves back on the street in a few months with a year on probation. It's just a game to them, and people in these areas are scared for their lives to go walking at night. Arm these citizens, and see how quickly these kids realize it's not just fun and games.

So why don't we outlaw guns in the US? If the government devised a good way to obtain everyone's firearms I bet the crime rates would drop DRAMATICALLY. Things like Columbine, VT, etc. Would be a extreme rarity and a thing of the past, unless of course he had a really big sword.
Lets suspend reality for a bit. If we waved a magic wand and made all the guns disappear, we'd still have a crime problem. If we waved a magic wand and made all the crime disappear, we wouldn't have a gun problem. Guns aren't the problem, crime is. Don't say guns make it easier for criminals to do evil, because I already said that guns make it easier for citizens to STOP criminals from doing evil.

You seem to think that it's OK to infringe on our rights if it will lower crime rates. This is a slippery slope, my friend. I understand that you've nothing but good intentions, but well-intentioned laws coupled with incrementalism have destroyed the rights of the law abiding.

The only reason not to outlaw firearms in the US is the 2nd Amendment. Now I for one do not want my firearms taken away, they give me great joy. Every time I look at my AK-47, I smile, when I shoot it gives me even greater joy. But logically speaking guns do make it much easier to kill people. Given if you want someone dead, you're going to do it - even if you're an astronaut driving with a diaper on with an BB gun. But all the acts of senseless violence such as drive by shootings, people going insane - getting a couple of guns and going around killing people at will before the police show up would be a thing of the past.

The constitution has a repeal process. It's a cumbersome one, but it's meant to be. If the vast majority of citizens wanted the 2nd amendment out of their constitution, it would be. Clearly, this is not the case. If a deranged diaper-clad astronaut is capable of murder without a gun, wouldn't you want to allow the victim a means to protect herself? 911 is government sponsored dial-a-prayer. You can only get them to show up quickly if you are in immediate danger, and even if you do, that "quick" response time can still be 3-5 minutes. You've already said that criminals will obtain guns, how can you claim that drive by shootings will be a thing of the past? These gangs are EXTREMELY well funded and well armed. This isn't just some kid breaking into neighborhood houses to steal stuff to pawn, these are terrorists fighting for territory to sell another banned material, drugs. Lot of good the war on drugs is doing, how do you think the war on guns will fair?

Now a good rebuttal for that would be, "Citizens should be armed." For anyone who has ever been in a bar fight, or at a party where people get drunk and fight - that's a scary thought. A black eye is no big deal, heals in a few days. If those people were armed. Or had weapons in their vehicle, well let's just say gun shot wounds don't heal as fast as a black eye - a lot of the times they don't heal at all.
This is a common claim made by the gun control alarmists. They claim that neighborly disputes will turn into homicides, barroom brawls will turn into bloodbaths, and the streets will generally run red with blood. This simply doesn't happen. At all. Look it up, it just doesn't happen. Generally people who get drunk and commit violence have a blemish on their record, and under current laws, this might keep them from owning a gun at all. But have you ever thought that if idea of getting drunk and kicking the **** out of some guy who pissed you off in the bar could result in getting shot and possibly dying, you might think twice about it? But hey, as long as one person breaks the rules, it's ok to take rights away from everyone else right?

Now let's move on to the bull s*it topic of "gun control" (it's hard to read without laughing, huh?) It is obvious to any semi-educated person (or even a non-educated gang member) that if a bad guy wants a gun, he is going to get it if you live in a country where guns are legal. I am sure many of you have one of those shady acquaintances that you don't want to know - but you run into him every once in a while, that can get you an illegal firearms. Call him up and ask him how much a gun with bodies is. Lot cheaper then Turners.
Gun control was made to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Gun control doesn't work. You admit it doesn't work. Do you think banning will be a sudden success? If so, what are you basing this on?

So not even going to argue gun control here - because it is obvious to everyone. It is either make guns legal (like they are partially now) or outlaw them completely. The real question one must ask them selves is the 2nd Amendment, The Right to Bear Arms worth 1 human life? What about 33 human lives? What about 8,197 human lives?
This is a question YOU have to ask YOURSELF. We all know what OUR right to bear arms is worth to us. It's possible that a thief could break into your place and take your guns and use them for evil. It COULD save 1 life if you destroy all your guns. Why do you still own guns?

04-25-2007, 5:21 PM
You argue that since we're allowed to own guns now we're already living in the ideal society where criminals have guns, and citizens have guns like gunnies claim they want. This is not true because in the states with the high murder rates, citizens are NOT allowed to carry guns. The logic is flawed. If everyone had the right to carry, and we saw an increase in violent crime, then we could talk, but as I said before, history shows that just doesn't happen. To make matters worse, the police encourage people NOT to use guns. People have been trained not to use force, and to rely on the police. Once the truth gets out about the polices' inability to protect you and your family, people will buy more guns, and the crime rate will go down. It's what we're seeing in Virginia with the increase in gun purchases and applications and renewals of CCWs.

Aside from all the things you've said, you're forgetting the actual POINT of the 2nd amendment. To prevent tyranny by the government. Our framers recognized that eventually, all governments will become tyrannical, and gave us our second amendment to protect the rest. So long as we remain "a people numerous and armed" the government will think twice about openly trampling our rights, and oppressing us. The 2nd amendment isn't about shooting at the range, shooting deer, or shooting bad guys... It's about shooting political tyrants.