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View Full Version : Norco man released from jail..


bg
04-25-2007, 1:19 PM
I always thought this guy got railroaded. He shouldn't have been arrested
at all. Now he's screwed.
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/local/Los_Angeles/The_Press-Enterprise/SIG=14ujt68d9/**http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pe.com%2Fperl%2Fcommon%2Frssred ir.pl%3Fpage%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pe.com%2Flocalnews %2Finland%2Fstories%2FPE_News_Local_S_ammo25.3bafe c3.html

On Tuesday, Riverside Superior Court Judge Janice M. McIntyre sentenced him to 80 days of time already served. He will also have to serve three years probation, [b and [u]forever give up his gun collection.

Why does he have to undergo PSYCHIATRIC EVALUATION ? For exercising his
right to keep & bear arms ? Just flat BS !

derek@thepackingrat.net
04-25-2007, 1:33 PM
I do not see how that's fair. To forever give up his collection? Wow...

tgriffin
04-25-2007, 1:50 PM
:mad: "I think it was fair, and I think gun lovers would think it was fair," he said. "People still have the right to bear arms."

But he doesnt :mad:

SemiAutoSam
04-25-2007, 1:52 PM
That must mean the poor sucker was convicted of a felony. Or at least it could mean that.
What other conviction could make him give up his entire collection and not own any firearms for life.


I do not see how that's fair. To forever give up his collection? Wow...

grammaton76
04-25-2007, 2:02 PM
He did SORT of get screwed, yeah. On the other hand, he's a prime example of what happens to folks who don't keep up on the law.

I believe 185lbs of powder basically requires commercial premises...

hoffmang
04-25-2007, 2:06 PM
There is one supposed fact here that people may be ignoring. He assaulted the fire fighters trying to put the fire out.

That doesn't speak highly of certain of his actions.

-Gene

ocabj
04-25-2007, 2:16 PM
I'm glad the article did point out that he legally acquired said "assault weapons" prior to 01/01/2000. I wish they had pointed out for the average reader that his only violation of law as not registering them within the appropriate time interval.

HowardW56
04-25-2007, 2:22 PM
He did SORT of get screwed, yeah. On the other hand, he's a prime example of what happens to folks who don't keep up on the law.

I believe 185lbs of powder basically requires commercial premises...


The destructive device charge (the powder) is what did him in....

bwiese
04-25-2007, 2:24 PM
Stoopid doofus had tons of powder and (supposedly) unreg'd AWs.

Not too bright.

You figure if he valued his firearms rights he'd think about what he's doing.

Reminds me of some Reno gunshow FFLs: "Oh, they ain't bustin' for that" - and then they were popped in 2004 by ATF for preban stuff on postban rifles, just a few months before the AWB sunset.

Moral: if you wanna have a ton of gunpowder, make sure it's stored in ammo.

SemiAutoSam
04-25-2007, 2:24 PM
I didn't see anything in the news about him assaulting the firefighters just that he got in their way of putting out the fire.

Do you define assault by a physical touch to another person or would assault need to be more than that ?

Curious to the definition ? have your blacks handy ?

There is one supposed fact here that people may be ignoring. He assaulted the fire fighters trying to put the fire out.

That doesn't speak highly of certain of his actions.

-Gene

MrTuffPaws
04-25-2007, 2:27 PM
Poor guy. I wonder what he did with all of the dirt left over from digging that tunnel?

ocabj
04-25-2007, 2:28 PM
I didn't see anything in the news about him assaulting the firefighters just that he got in their way of putting out the fire.

Do you define assault by a physical touch to another person or would assault need to be more than that ?

Curious to the definition ? have your blacks handy ?

From what I gathered from the TV news reports with footage of the actual fire fighters at work, he tried to get back into the house while they were putting out the active fire. They were trying to restrain him from going back in and he was resisting them.

If you look at the Riverside County Court records (viewable online to everyone), the charge is "Interfering with Fire Department".

hawk1
04-25-2007, 2:32 PM
http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_ammo25.3bafec3.html



By PAIGE AUSTIN
The Press-Enterprise

Norco resident Thomas Lee McKiernan regained his freedom Tuesday, but he's lost a lot in the last two months.

McKiernan, a retired machinist, Vietnam veteran and former Army captain, made national headlines in March when his home caught fire, exposing a cache of more than a hundred guns, a million rounds of ammunition and more than 185 pounds of gun powder.

When firefighters arrived at the scene, he tussled with them in an effort to get back into his burning home even as live rounds exploded in the blaze. When the flames were doused, Riverside County sheriff's officials discovered a 70-foot long tunnel beneath his house filled with food and water for long-term survival.


http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2007/04-25/ammo25_400.jpg


The fire, the water damage and the tunnel made his house uninhabitable.

McKiernan moved into the Robert Presley Detention Center, an unwitting emblem of embattled gun rights for some and a symbol of survivalist extremism for others.

But in the end, McKiernan was just a local man who accidentally ran afoul of the law, said Deputy District Attorney Michael Mayman.

On Tuesday, Riverside Superior Court Judge Janice M. McIntyre sentenced him to 80 days of time already served. He will also have to serve three years probation, undergo psychiatric evaluation and forever give up his gun collection.

McKiernan faced as much as five years in prison, but the more lenient sentence was part of a plea arrangement that reflects his efforts to comply with the law and his lack of criminal history, said Mayman.

Most of McKiernan 's guns were collected over decades, and they include collector's pieces such as pre-World War II guns. His illegal assault rifles were bought before they were outlawed in 2000, indicating that McKiernan was at least trying to be a law-abiding collector, Mayman said.

"People are particularly sensitive about this issue," said Mayman, who received dozens of calls from gun enthusiasts. "This was really more of an explosives case than a gun-rights issue."

The problem, said Mayman, is that McKiernan 's stockpile of gunpowder was a threat to the community. He had more than 185 pounds of gunpowder -- dozens of times the legal limit.

One positive outcome of the case is that many people are trying to learn from McKiernan's mistakes by making sure their gun collections are legal and that they have the proper permits if they store large quantities of gunpowder, Mayman said. "It's important for us to enforce our gun laws," Mayman said, adding that is particularly true in light of the Virginia Tech massacre.

On Tuesday morning, McKiernan waited for hours with dozens of other shackled inmates in the Riverside courthouse. Gray-haired and wearing an orange jumpsuit, the 62-year-old kept to himself and declined to make a statement to the court before his sentencing.

He's a quiet but pleasant man, explained his attorney, Michael K. Cernyar. Despite his jail time, he has faired well with support from family and neighbors in the community, Cernyar said.

Even though his neighbors had to be evacuated due to the explosives, many in the community came out in support of McKiernan, who lived in the now-condemned home for 32 years.

In the end, McKiernan got a fair deal, Cernyar concluded.

"I think it was fair, and I think gun lovers would think it was fair," he said. "People still have the right to bear arms."

SemiAutoSam
04-25-2007, 2:42 PM
"Interfering with Fire Department" in my understanding does not equal assault but then if the TV News and what they report is considered evidence I'm really surprised anyone gets a fair trial.

The interesting thing about this mans case was (the assault charge aside) most of what he got in trouble was possession of some thing not an injury on anyone. I didn't see the assault happen so cannot condemn the man for that nor for what ever amount of gun powder he owned.

IMHO if he did not injure anyone there was no crime but thats only my opinion and now law.

I don't see an injury involved in a rifle no matter what evil name a government agency will apply to it.

From what I gathered from the TV news reports with footage of the actual fire fighters at work, he tried to get back into the house while they were putting out the active fire. They were trying to restrain him from going back in and he was resisting them.

If you look at the Riverside County Court records (viewable online to everyone), the charge is "Interfering with Fire Department".

bg
04-25-2007, 3:08 PM
Ya got to remember it's Riverside as well.

arguy15
04-25-2007, 3:52 PM
I just did the math and 150 pounds of powder is 22,826 rounds of mil-spec .308, for you worried about having too much ammo (which there is no such thing of.)

LECTRIKHED
04-25-2007, 4:08 PM
Sounds like a good outcome. He may be mentally ill and in need of help. His guns do not appear to be part of his needing mental aid. He might have been one of the prisoner types that would take a dump in the middle of the cell and play with it. We don't know, and won't be told due to medical privacy, why he needs mental help.

They could have made things way bigger. Accused him of building bombs, gun smuggling, illegal AWs, plotting to overthrow the government, illegal manufacture of tinfoil hats etc.

SemiAutoSam
04-25-2007, 4:11 PM
Isn't that Ironic No law against having a any amount of ammo (or is there ?) but a law against having a component of that same ammo.

I just did the math and 150 pounds of powder is 22,826 rounds of mil-spec .308, for you worried about having too much ammo (which there is no such thing of.)

dw1784
04-25-2007, 4:12 PM
http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_5744078

Thomas McKiernan, 61, pleaded guilty to possession of explosives, possession of an assault weapon and resisting arrest in late March after two additional assault-weapon misdemeanors were dismissed.

Deputy District Attorney Michael Mayman said the two charges were dropped after it was determined McKiernan is simply a gun enthusiast who failed to keep the registration for his weapons up to date.

Mayman said the most serious crime was his possession of explosives, which is a felony.

McKiernan had more than 70 pounds of black gunpowder. Riverside County allows only 1 pound.

In addition, McKiernan had about 116 pounds of smokeless gunpowder, but the legal limit is 20 pounds, officials said.

The resisting-arrest charge was a result of McKiernan's struggle with firefighters, who tried to keep him from his house as they battled the flames March 1.

question: powder qty limit cited is for Riverside County only or is that statewide?

I seem to recall Fed limit only but not state limit; though regional health/safety reg's may apply. DOT limits based on quantity and the quantity appropriate container(transport/storage) and storage cabinate(for said containers).

If 20lb is the limit, I think there's quite a few of us that needs to reload faster:D

ocabj
04-25-2007, 4:13 PM
The 20 lb limit is State wide. Whether or not the county or city you live in has stricter limits is another question.

grammaton76
04-25-2007, 4:18 PM
The 20 lb limit is State wide. Whether or not the county or city you live in has stricter limits is another question.

Thought it was 25?

ocabj
04-25-2007, 4:24 PM
12101.5. This chapter does not apply to any possession or use by a
person licensed as a pyrotechnic operator--special effects first
class of 20 pounds or less of smokeless powder, or five pounds or
less of black sporting powder, if all of the following requirements
are satisfied:
(a) All such powder is for use in the pursuit of the lawful
business of such licensee and not for resale, and, in the case of
black sporting powder, there shall be no gift, delivery or other
disposition to another person who is not licensed as a pyrotechnic
operator--special effects first class. Any such licensee may sell,
give, deliver, or otherwise dispose of any smokeless or black
sporting powder to another such licensee.
(b) The storage, use and handling of such smokeless and black
powder conforms to rules, regulations, or ordinances of authorities
having jurisdiction for fire prevention and suppression in the area
of such storage, use, and handling of such explosives.

12102. This chapter does not apply to any possession or use of 20
pounds or less of smokeless powder, or one pound or less of black
sporting powder, provided that:
(a) Smokeless powder is intended only for hand loading of small
arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(b) Black sporting powder is intended for loading of small arms or
small arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(c) All such powder is for private use and not for resale, and, in
the case of black sporting powder, there shall be no gift, delivery,
or other disposition to another person.
(d) The storage, use and handling of such smokeless and black
powder conforms to rules, regulations, or ordinances of authorities
having jurisdiction for fire prevention and suppression in the area
of such storage, use, and handling of such explosives.

If you have a copy of that booklet on CA firearms related laws, it states 20lbs smokeless, 5lbs black.

grammaton76
04-25-2007, 4:26 PM
If you have a copy of that booklet on CA firearms related laws, it states 20lbs smokeless, 5lbs black.

Ah, I bet I was adding 20+5. I always thought the limit on black powder was 1lb for some reason.

crunchy2k
04-25-2007, 6:38 PM
I had a fire in my house in 1996.. First thing I did was find the captain of the firefighters and inform him I had 1900 rounds in the basement. I then informed him of the location of my firearms, where forty rounds sat in loaded clips. The firearms were not loaded.
Its about responsibility when city services come to help you. I sat with the firefighter that had to stay watching the house for flareups. I got quizzed about how I felt about my neighbors and why I had so much ammo. Normal questions not to take offense at. Funny, the only thing I could think of after making sure the firefighters were out of harms way, was that my cats got out of the house, was having my wallet put in hands.




I always thought this guy got railroaded. He shouldn't have been arrested
at all. Now he's screwed.
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/local/Los_Angeles/The_Press-Enterprise/SIG=14ujt68d9/**http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pe.com%2Fperl%2Fcommon%2Frssred ir.pl%3Fpage%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pe.com%2Flocalnews %2Finland%2Fstories%2FPE_News_Local_S_ammo25.3bafe c3.html



Why does he have to undergo PSYCHIATRIC EVALUATION ? For exercising his
right to keep & bear arms ? Just flat BS !

paradox
04-25-2007, 6:42 PM
12102. This chapter does not apply to any possession or use of 20
pounds or less of smokeless powder, or one pound or less of black
sporting powder,[/B]



Then there are county and city ordinances....

I do feel for y’all that have to deal with ordinances more restrictive than the state law. My county’s ordinance seems fair enough :D


Chapter 8.16

EXPLOSIVES

Section:
8.16.010 Storage limits.

8.16.010 Storage limits. No person shall keep,
store, or have in any building structure, or place
within forty rods of any inhabited dwelling house
or county road in the county, more than fifty
pounds of blasting powder or more than fifty
pounds of gunpowder, or more than fifty pounds
of dynamite or more than fifty pounds of
hercules powder, or more than fifty pounds of
giant powder. (Ord. 24 § 11, 1889; prior code §
7-6.0).

Japedo
04-25-2007, 6:57 PM
The news report I heard was some firearms were going to family members, the rest would be put up for sale.
Estate group buy?

SemiAutoSam
04-25-2007, 7:26 PM
They thought that was a lot of ammo ?

I would think to a lot of the membership here that is severely under supplied.

But to your average dude on the street its most likely a lot of ammo.




I had a fire in my house in 1996.. First thing I did was find the captain of the firefighters and inform him I had 1900 rounds in the basement. I then informed him of the location of my firearms, where forty rounds sat in loaded clips. The firearms were not loaded.
Its about responsibility when city services come to help you. I sat with the firefighter that had to stay watching the house for flareups. I got quizzed about how I felt about my neighbors and why I had so much ammo. Normal questions not to take offense at. Funny, the only thing I could think of after making sure the firefighters were out of harms way, was that my cats got out of the house, was having my wallet put in hands.

crunchy2k
04-25-2007, 7:41 PM
This is california where those that couldn't make it in their own states come. And they become afraid of their neighbors.

They thought that was a lot of ammo ?

I would think to a lot of the membership here that is severely under supplied.

But to your average dude on the street its most likely a lot of ammo.

dwtt
04-25-2007, 7:49 PM
[B]12101.5. This chapter does not apply to any .... [B]

If you have a copy of that booklet on CA firearms related laws, it states 20lbs smokeless, 5lbs black.

I think there are quite a few of us who read this thread and said, "Uh oh, 20 lbs?"

SemiAutoSam
04-25-2007, 7:52 PM
Indeed, I will have to check one of the DOJ books I have (its pretty old I would think 1984 or so) and compare to see if the regs have changed.



I think there are quite a few of us who read this thread and said, "Uh oh, 20 lbs?"

goose
04-25-2007, 10:16 PM
I posted before that this was a neighbor of my moms. Today I watched the bulldozer level half of the house. Tomorrow the rest will be razed. The reports I have read he did not have insurance on the house and that maybe they would allow his wife to sell his collection to raise funds. If these reports are true the man is a complete dumbass. You can be a survivalist all you want in the wilderness but to live in a municipality uninsured, wrestling with firemen (watched six of them run him out of the house long after the fire was burning) does not bode well. I wish them the best, but you have to play by the rules.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-25-2007, 10:21 PM
Then there are county and city ordinances....

I do feel for y’all that have to deal with ordinances more restrictive than the state law. My county’s ordinance seems fair enough :D

You do realize city ordinances don't trump state law? In this situation a city could have regulation which is more strict than state law, but not more lenient.

Moonclip
04-26-2007, 12:34 AM
I wonder if they really are going to let him sell the non assault weapon portion of collection and if it was damaged in the fire. Too bad really, where is he going to live also? I guess he can sell the land though and move out of area to somewhere cheaper to live.

paradox
04-26-2007, 6:58 AM
You do realize city ordinances don't trump state law? In this situation a city could have regulation which is more strict than state law, but not more lenient.

I know. But at least it's not more restrictive. I imagine having 50lbs of dynamite in my basement is a no-go on state and federal level as well, but my county is ok with it ;)

Hunter
04-26-2007, 8:12 AM
I know. But at least it's not more restrictive. I imagine having 50lbs of dynamite in my basement is a no-go on state and federal level as well, but my county is ok with it ;)

Actually, your county is setting a limit on the qty that a licensed person in the business can have (pyrotechnics/explosive business). The PC cited in this thread (20lbs smokeless / 1 lb BP) is for non-licensed persons that donot deal in powder.

xrMike
04-26-2007, 10:09 AM
The 20 lb limit is State wide.I'm nearly half-way there. I better stop screwing around and buy some more!

paradox
04-26-2007, 10:35 AM
Actually, your county is setting a limit on the qty that a licensed person in the business can have (pyrotechnics/explosive business).


Nope, the law is for any person.

The ordinance dates to well before intrusive licensing every aspect of our lives switched from being unAmerican to being the American way.

Back then you could buy food, oxen, gold pans, military arms, booze, opium, and high explosives all at the General Store, cash and carry. :D

Hunter
04-26-2007, 10:53 AM
Nope, the law is for any person. ...


Agreed in principal, but since the State already has taken care of the non-license person (20lb/1lb), the only remaining group are the licensed businesses that the State exempted from that limit. So your county's ordinance limits apply to that group only.

grammaton76
04-26-2007, 1:15 PM
Don't forget the alternate maximum limit for residential guys who construct an appropriate powder container. Believe the limit is 50 on that... the law actually specifies certain widths of plywood, etc.

bg
04-26-2007, 1:33 PM
Don't forget the alternate maximum limit for residential guys who construct an appropriate powder container. Believe the limit is 50 on that... the law actually specifies certain widths of plywood, etc.
Now that's interesting...Wonder what the details are ?