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edwardjames
04-16-2012, 6:02 PM
i own a 5.56 AR already and i'm looking for new options on calibers . but i keep hearing to stay away from the 300 AAC BLACKOUT round unless i can get it suppressed ?


can anyone explain this to me ? thanks in advance

DirtyLaundry
04-16-2012, 6:32 PM
It was primarily intended as a way to sling heavy .30 subsonic rounds out of a suppressed AR platform.

Supersonic-wise its equivalent to 7.62x39, which is much cheaper to shoot.

You cannot practically get a suppressor in CA so its primary purposes is negated.

Richard Erichsen
04-16-2012, 7:06 PM
i own a 5.56 AR already and i'm looking for new options on calibers . but i keep hearing to stay away from the 300 AAC BLACKOUT round unless i can get it suppressed ?


can anyone explain this to me ? thanks in advance

A new caliber in your rifle to do what exactly? What kind of shooting does the 5.56/.223 not allow you to do right now?

The reasons FOR getting the .300 AAC include:

* You might impress a friend or two
* It's got the majority of the gun press buzzing and that buzz sells uppers and complete rifles
* For use with shorter SBR barrels, the larger bore doesn't lose as much velocity compared to 5.56 (though the same could be said of 6.8 Remington SPC and 7.62x39mm)
* Can be inexpensively reloaded, if you are keen to set up a reloading bench and buy a loadbook or two which will also open up your possibilities
* Doesn't require special magazines, lower receivers or bolt heads, the biggest change is the barrel

Reasons for NOT getting the .300 AAC include:
* 6.8 mm SPC is much more versatile if you really MUST have something other than 5.56 NATO/.223 and can operate in shorter barrels without substantial performance loss with better terminal performance within practical ranges
* 5.45x39 mm is generally much cheaper and behaves similarly to 5.56 FMJ with more costly domestic options (Hornady Vmax and SST) and several modern Russian types in weights and types not found in typical military FMJ
* It won't do anything on the supersonic loads that is any better than 7.62x39mm. 7.62x39 mm is generally cheaper and has all of the benefits of .300 AAC with even greater potential when handloaded (greater propellent volume), with some excellent domestic and import ammunition with a variety of quality and range of purposes, though not for sub-sonic supressed use (that role goes to the 9x39 mm)
* A magazine full of .300 AAC could be accidentally loaded into a weapon chambered for 5.56/.223 if you aren't paying attention
* It will not be cheaper to shoot than 5.56 if you buy all your ammunition from commercial sources, particularly of the milsurp NATO varieties

In the pro vs. against I find more against. For a military procurement office, the math works better if the weapons already in inventory require relatively minor modifications to fit a niche role (silenced short barrel weapons). For a civilian user, buying a whole rifle, or an upper in a special caliber isn't that big of an investment. It's not until the ammo bill starts to pile up with the kind of shooting you do that will show if you made the right decision or not.

R

DirtyDave
04-16-2012, 8:15 PM
^^^Yeah like these guys said^^^
Supersonic loads are Turds compared to other Supersonic options like 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC
Only practical if shooting Sub-sonic loads out of a Supressed rifle

If you want something bigger than a 223 in an AR, I would go with the 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC

MrPlink
04-16-2012, 8:27 PM
Ive been looking at 300blk but I have a bit of a conundrum.

Being in Ca I clearly do not have a suppressor. So there is a minus
I do however own an AR pistol. Here is a plus
I also own "hi-cap" pre bans for the AR platform, which will work for the 300blk. Another plus

BUT I cant use them with my AR pistol... back to minus :D

joelogic
04-16-2012, 8:44 PM
suppressor... sbr... blah blah blah. If you are only shooting at paper who cares, buy whatever you want.

I like the versatility.
247gr Lead subsonics, think .45 report vs .223 report.
150gr milsurp blasters, think .30 cal in a AR-15 vs a car windshield.
125gr hunting rounds.

All out of the same gun, cheaply. If you dont reload and you are worried about money buy a .22LR.

Plus making our own brass out of what you pick up from the ground is just cool.
http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m353/joelogic/wdf054.jpg

MrPlink
04-16-2012, 10:10 PM
suppressor... sbr... blah blah blah. If you are only shooting at paper who cares, buy whatever you want.



well Im mostly shooting at paper, sometimes metal or plastic too, but I want the guys on the interwebz to think Im cooooool!! :cool:

b.faust
04-16-2012, 10:44 PM
I just bought one. I was on the fence about it but after talking to JoeLogic about it I was sold.
I ended up buying the AAC brand upper.

My lower is still in DROS so I just slapped it on my Noveske N4 lower and hit the range on Sat.
I immediately decided I loved it.
(btw, thanks again Joelogic...good call)

I didn't get sub MOA groups (I was using a SPARC) but once it was zeroed in I got them all in a 2" shoot-n-see.
Yeah .223 is probably cheaper, but I reload and as already stated, it's pretty cool to make your own rounds.
The recoil was different, not quite as light as the .223, but certainly not as heavy as a .308
The dirt behind my target was flying everywhere (also fun)
And yes, everyone had to check it out (more fun)

Would I buy one if I didn't have a couple AR-15s? Probably not.
Did I buy it to "mix it up a little" and have a fun new toy? Most certainly.
Would I recommend it? Definitely.
Am I an expert? Oh my no.

I don't fret it, I buy what I want and enjoy it.
B.

ronyama
04-17-2012, 6:58 AM
Has anyone tried a PWA 300 BLK upper? I've read good things about their products. Customer service seems to be OK.
Thanks,
Ron

ronyama
04-17-2012, 7:03 AM
My bad. Should be PSA for Palmetto State Armory.

rsilvers
04-17-2012, 8:38 AM
i own a 5.56 AR already and i'm looking for new options on calibers . but i keep hearing to stay away from the 300 AAC BLACKOUT round unless i can get it suppressed ?


can anyone explain this to me ? thanks in advance

It makes no sense to think that way. It is like 7.62x39mm or 30-30 for an AR. People use 7.62x39mm and 30-30 without suppressors 99.999% of the time.

But why do people say that? Because it also happens to have suppressor-friendly ammo available for it that will cycle reliably in an AR15.

rsilvers
04-17-2012, 8:40 AM
^^^Yeah like these guys said^^^
Supersonic loads are Turds compared to other Supersonic options like 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC
Only practical if shooting Sub-sonic loads out of a Supressed rifle

If you want something bigger than a 223 in an AR, I would go with the 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC

6.5 and 6.8 cost about 42% more for ammo, and require special magazines - of a kind not even available in CA if you want 20-30 rounds.

As for power - it is far from a turd - the AMU shooter won the nationals with it while making major power factor:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/10/horner-wins-tactical-optics-divison-at-multigun-nationals/

The ammo expands to 0.600 inches at 300 yards - even from a 9 inch barrel, but even better from a 16 inch:

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/files/2012/01/300BLK-300-small-500x336.jpg

rsilvers
04-17-2012, 8:47 AM
Reasons for NOT getting the .300 AAC include:
* 6.8 mm SPC is much more versatile if you really MUST have something other than 5.56 NATO/.223 and can operate in shorter barrels without substantial
performance loss with better terminal performance within practical ranges

300 BLK is easily more versatile than those. It can shoot 100-240 grain bullets. 6.8/6.5 ammo is 42% more expensive than 300 BLK.

* 5.45x39 mm is generally much cheaper and behaves similarly to 5.56 FMJ with more costly domestic options (Hornady Vmax and SST) and several modern Russian types in weights and types not found in typical military FMJ

People who want 30 caliber are not going to be interested in 5.45.

* It won't do anything on the supersonic loads that is any better than 7.62x39mm. 7.62x39 mm is generally cheaper and has all of the benefits of .300 AAC with even greater potential when handloaded (greater propellent volume), with some excellent domestic and import ammunition with a variety of quality and range of purposes, though not for sub-sonic supressed use (that role goes to the 9x39 mm)

7.62x39mm does not cycle ARs in subsonic within M4 specs for cyclic rate (reliably). Also, the barrel twist rates are 1:10, which cannot stabilize the latest subsonic bullets.


* It will not be cheaper to shoot than 5.56 if you buy all your ammunition from commercial sources, particularly of the milsurp NATO varieties


Yes. 30 cal costs more. Just like V8 engines cost more than V4. More costs more. 300 BLK has as much energy from a 16 inch barrel as 5.56mm does from a 24 inch barrel.

edwardjames
04-17-2012, 10:34 AM
thanks everybody for the knowledgeable replies.

ive since kicked the 300 AAC idea out the door and ill either be building a 5.45 setup (since its considerably cheap to shoot) or fork out the money to build a nice .308 (for that big BANG)

joelogic
04-17-2012, 11:07 AM
The price of corrosive ammo does not make for the amount of cleaning required.

duc748bip
04-17-2012, 11:16 AM
Just get one and be happy ;) especially you have firearm as your hobby.

I want one for my pistol lower!

Oh yeah also no large caliber AR15 can duplicate what a large framed AR 308 can do in terms of performance.

DirtyLaundry
04-25-2012, 1:16 PM
People who want 30 caliber are not going to be interested in 5.45.

The OP is looking for a novelty caliber for his AR, not necessarily something to sling big boolets of XYZ caliber.



7.62x39mm does not cycle ARs in subsonic within M4 specs for cyclic rate (reliably). Also, the barrel twist rates are 1:10, which cannot stabilize the latest subsonic bullets.

Well considering OP, or anyone else isn't going to be shooting anything out of a suppressor, .300bo or otherwise, this is pretty much a moot point is it not?

The benefits of .300bo out of a supressed rifle have already been outlined ITT. Those benefits are negated because no one is going to be shooting subsonic unless they really want to sling heavy rounds down range necessitating the lack of velocity due to the .300bo's lack of case capacity. 7.62x39 will do everything .300bo will do in CA for much much cheaper. There are very good 7.62x39 hunting rounds. The benefit of using the same magazines/bolt/etc. are far overstated by proponents of .300bo. (most)People don't carry around an AR with two barrels to swap in the field. Hell even swapping barrels at your house is more trouble than its worth. Its easier and more practical to have dedicated uppers and its just as easy to have a 7.62x39 dedicated upper as it is to have a .300bo dedicated upper.

.300bo is a neat caliber, but not much more than a novelty caliber. Its capabilities are novel but not particularly useful in a real practical manner, and certainly not enough to justify the cost for the vast majority of shooters when there are similar calibers that will do pretty much the same thing for much cheaper.


Yes. 30 cal costs more. Just like V8 engines cost more than V4. More costs more. 300 BLK has as much energy from a 16 inch barrel as 5.56mm does from a 24 inch barrel.

For this to be an equivalent metaphor the "V8" would have to be a '77 Trans am with a big 6.6 liter big block putting out a whopping 200hp but costing three times as much, and our "V4" (you meant I4 right?) would have to be one of the plethora of 200hp+ 4 cylinder economy cars driving around today that could be had for a song. That big "V8" means nothing if it doesn't provide performance superior to the the 'cheaper 4 cylinders' when it commands such a price premium.

hawaii five-0
04-25-2012, 2:12 PM
6.8 and 6.5 do not favor a pistol length gas system.300 blk does.Also,that big flash in front of your 6.8 short barrel?That's powder thats not doing anything.....300 blk is a great choice for SBR's and pistols.

Knife Edge
04-25-2012, 4:34 PM
I think 300 will stick around for many of the aforementioned reasons.

hcbr
04-25-2012, 11:10 PM
yeah i was on the fence too, but like some on here, I needed variety among my other ar's, so having the 300 aac blk was just for my amusement. Shoot whatever you want, is my motto, so long as you enjoy it. Yeah sure, too bad i can't get a supressor, but hey i'll enjoy it every bit I can get it to the range and just blow stuff up and hit targets

joelogic
04-26-2012, 6:37 AM
Just one quick thing about 7.62x39, a lot of my local action matches are banning bi-metal jackets so if you want to shoot x39 there goes the cheap agrument.

Plus why are calgunners so cheap, sorry to be OT. But someone started a thread about "why bullet buttons aren't $1."

Heretodaygonetomorrow
04-26-2012, 10:30 AM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned home defense. So what if you can't use a suppressor? I would think that .300 Blackout would be a better round for house defense than most handgun rounds or .223/.556. Even without a suppressor, Subsonic .300 Blackout has a much lower report when fired than .556mm, and more energy than a .357 handgun round. The subsonic rounds will not have the over-penetration problem of .556 in a house either, while the 220g rounds have substantial stopping power at short range.

.300 Backout would not be the best caliber in a SHTF situation where the availability of ammo could become a problem, or if you had to shoot at longer ranges (over 300 yards), BUT as a house gun, with a 30 round pre-ban magazine loaded with 220g subsonics, I can't visualize a problem that couldn't be solved.

Jason_2111
04-26-2012, 11:57 AM
It's a perfectly valid option... I'm in the middle of a 300 BLK build right now.
All you need is a barrel and comp... everything else is normal AR compatible. No special lower, mags, bolt carrier, etc.
200gr 30 cal rounds do have more F-U power for home defense than your standard 5.56.

More importantly... for reloaders, you make your own brass cheap and easy from 5.56. Buy 30 cal rounds in bulk, bingo... really cheap ammo. By my estimates, 5 or so cents more per round to load than 55gr 5.56. Shooting 6.8 would be preferable of course, but the ammo costs way more, and the gear is 6.8 specific... so more money there.

Build an upper, try it out, if it don't work for you, sell it off. There's a shortage of 300 BLK barrels right now, so flipping it in the marketplace shouldn't be hard.

I'm sure you've already found it, but in case not...

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/

Lots of good info here without so many haters. ;)

Cypriss32
04-26-2012, 9:50 PM
YA I am building a 300blk
14.5" barrel
VLTR CAS
A2 front sight
Vortex FH
Eotech
Fixed rear sight
CTR stock
Ergo Grip


It serves it uses. I will run 147gr surplus bullets and 125gr Barnse.

joelogic
04-26-2012, 9:55 PM
Just my $.02 when going fixed muzzle device, you may want to use a brake instead of a flash hider just in case you want to go featureless.

FatalKitty
04-27-2012, 8:13 AM
just got my 300 barrel got my reloading gear all set up and made a few +/- to get it dialed in

echoarms
04-27-2012, 8:31 AM
Reasons for NOT getting the .300 AAC include:
* A magazine full of .300 AAC could be accidentally loaded into a weapon chambered for 5.56/.223 if you aren't paying attention

R
I haven't loaded any that will chamber in a 5.56 barrel.
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned home defense. So what if you can't use a suppressor? I would think that .300 Blackout would be a better round for house defense than most handgun rounds or .223/.556. Even without a suppressor, Subsonic .300 Blackout has a much lower report when fired than .556mm, and more energy than a .357 handgun round. The subsonic rounds will not have the over-penetration problem of .556 in a house either, while the 220g rounds have substantial stopping power at short range.

.300 Backout would not be the best caliber in a SHTF situation where the availability of ammo could become a problem, or if you had to shoot at longer ranges (over 300 yards), BUT as a house gun, with a 30 round pre-ban magazine loaded with 220g subsonics, I can't visualize a problem that couldn't be solved.
I do like the fact that my sub sonics are quiet. The recoil is less. They operate at lower pressures so the brass lasts forever. I can take split neck or dinged shoulder 556 and make 300 blk cases. And lastly, I can cast lead bullets for 300 blackout FAR easier than for 556. I can shoot and load 300 blk for the cost a primer with my situation. 2 cents versus 15 cents for 556 is an easy decision for me.

PolishMike
04-27-2012, 8:40 AM
300 BLK is awesome
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7esBOfj9pQY/T4cwbKAJxcI/AAAAAAAAA5E/OOLOfMfItBo/s800/IMG_0545.JPG

I have several rifles now in 300blk and absolutely love the caliber.

GettoPhilosopher
04-27-2012, 9:19 AM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned home defense. So what if you can't use a suppressor? I would think that .300 Blackout would be a better round for house defense than most handgun rounds or .223/.556. Even without a suppressor, Subsonic .300 Blackout has a much lower report when fired than .556mm, and more energy than a .357 handgun round. The subsonic rounds will not have the over-penetration problem of .556 in a house either, while the 220g rounds have substantial stopping power at short range.

.300 Backout would not be the best caliber in a SHTF situation where the availability of ammo could become a problem, or if you had to shoot at longer ranges (over 300 yards), BUT as a house gun, with a 30 round pre-ban magazine loaded with 220g subsonics, I can't visualize a problem that couldn't be solved.

Other way around. Heavier bullets, like handgun rounds, will overpenetrate more than 5.56 M193.

That being said, I'd love a featureless .300 blackout build for home defense.

3006mv
04-27-2012, 10:13 AM
Please give info on the 247 gr lead subsonic. Curious reloaders want to know. Mold and powder and velocity and leading of bbl?

echoarms
04-27-2012, 2:25 PM
I've cast Lee 200gr, NOE 247gr and used xterminator for both. They won't go sub sonic but cycle fine. I've also shot a 308403 in my 300BLK bolt gun.

Heretodaygonetomorrow
04-27-2012, 6:11 PM
Other way around. Heavier bullets, like handgun rounds, will overpenetrate more than 5.56 M193.

That being said, I'd love a featureless .300 blackout build for home defense.



Not really. .556mm rounds (like 9mm and .357 pistol rounds) go through drywall and keep on going. And that's the problem with small diameter bullets, you get high velocity, but the energy is not transferred to the target when you hit it. It's wasted as the bullet exits the target. Larger caliper rounds are a larger diameter, and expand to even a larger diameter transferring all of the energy to the target when they stop in the target. Causing larger wound channels, more shock, will not penetrate as deep, and have less of a chance of coming out the back side. Reasons that make a .45ACP a more effective round than 9mm, and .308 more effective than .556mm.

One of the chief complaints of the detractors of .300 Black is lack of penetration and bullet drop at distance due to rapid loss of velocity as distance increases.

I have a good supply of pre-bad magazines and a RAW I can mount a .300 upper assembly on, so it's a good candidate for Home Defense for me. If a SHFT situation ever occurred, and I needed tons of ammo, I could switch back to a .556 upper in an instant (or grab a different black rifle).

GettoPhilosopher
04-28-2012, 5:05 PM
Not really. .556mm rounds (like 9mm and .357 pistol rounds) go through drywall and keep on going. And that's the problem with small diameter bullets, you get high velocity, but the energy is not transferred to the target when you hit it. It's wasted as the bullet exits the target. Larger caliper rounds are a larger diameter, and expand to even a larger diameter transferring all of the energy to the target when they stop in the target. Causing larger wound channels, more shock, will not penetrate as deep, and have less of a chance of coming out the back side. Reasons that make a .45ACP a more effective round than 9mm, and .308 more effective than .556mm.

One of the chief complaints of the detractors of .300 Black is lack of penetration and bullet drop at distance due to rapid loss of velocity as distance increases.

I have a good supply of pre-bad magazines and a RAW I can mount a .300 upper assembly on, so it's a good candidate for Home Defense for me. If a SHFT situation ever occurred, and I needed tons of ammo, I could switch back to a .556 upper in an instant (or grab a different black rifle).

Ballistics tests show otherwise. M193 fragments in the wall. Any round will penetrate the first sheet of drywall, but heavier rounds with more momentum will keep going.

ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/WoundProfilesAfterWallBarrier.jpg

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#OVERPENETRATION


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