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View Full Version : HELP ATF is threateing to take my friend's FFL!!!


ETD1010
04-24-2007, 1:21 PM
What can we do? They said he had violations, but he can't find them on the paperwork.. He also can't get the guy to talk to him about it until they "meet to discuss terms." Can't afford a lawyer, but this will be the second time on our city that a store lost their license. AFAIK, the other store was behind 5 years on their paperwork.... he was only behind a week (yes, behind, but to TAKE the license?????) HELP!!

bwiese
04-24-2007, 1:39 PM
Haven't you/he heard about the war on FFLs?

Dude, he needs a lawyer. "Can't afford" = no excuse. He should've been putting money aside for it.

If he doesn't fight, there's more than a good chane he'll lose his license.

He should NOT talk directly to ATF on this other than bare administrative compliance issues.

Down there he should contact Trutantich-Michel - probably Jason Davis.

http://www.tmllp.com - 562/216-4444.

ETD1010
04-24-2007, 1:46 PM
Haven't you/he heard about the war on FFLs?

yes, which is why I'd been helping him make sure everything was in check for an inspetion...

As for the $$ and laywer issue ... unfortunately, money has been tight at the store, with the landlord being a ***** and rasing rent because of "liability issuse" and him not being able to secure a lease for a move (been trying to move for months)... it's annoying red tape is what it is... but the fact is... it's a terribly thing that this has happened. he's a good guy and I'm trying to do EVERYTHING I can to help him. . .

bwiese
04-24-2007, 1:54 PM
yes, which is why I'd been helping him make sure everything was in check for an inspetion...

As for the $$ and laywer issue ... unfortunately, money has been tight at the store, with the landlord being a ***** and rasing rent because of "liability issuse" and him not being able to secure a lease for a move (been trying to move for months)... it's annoying red tape is what it is... but the fact is... it's a terribly thing that this has happened. he's a good guy and I'm trying to do EVERYTHING I can to help him. . .

Well, he's an idiot if he doesn't talk to a lawyer. Kiss his FFL goodbye.

ETD1010
04-24-2007, 1:58 PM
well, i'm not saying we doesn't WANT to.. but the investment would need to have a high chance to avoid the revokation to fight it. I don't know what his plans are, but I thought I'd come on here and see what his options are. I'm sure he'll TALK to a lawyer, but it also comes down to how much of a chance does he have to WIN, given the issues that were brought up from the past (long story). I just want to know what I/you/anyone else can do to help.... if there is anything else besided "talking to a lawyer," ie, duplicate experiences from FFL holders on the board.

hoffmang
04-24-2007, 2:38 PM
His choices are pretty stark. He can either figure out how to afford a lawyer and have a chance to keep his FFL or he can decide to not get a lawyer - realize that means that he will not keep his FFL, and start an orderly shut down.

-Gene

mgcchkn
04-24-2007, 5:47 PM
being behind on paperwork even one day isn't such a good idea for any FFL, let alone one in CA. like anything else, you have to pay to play.

no lawyer = no FFL

xenophobe
04-24-2007, 6:33 PM
At this point, he doesn't need a lawyer. He'll need to wait for the meeting so the ATF can present 'the list' of violations. He will be given a certain, sometimes unspecified, amount time to correct them. If he can correct them, then he's fine. If he cannot, then he will need a lawyer before the ATF requests to see the 'corrected' list.

Fjold
04-24-2007, 7:22 PM
I'm sure he'll TALK to a lawyer, but it also comes down to how much of a chance does he have to WIN, given the issues that were brought up from the past (long story).

So, is it not just being a week behind on the paperwork but that he has a history of violations?

ETD1010
04-24-2007, 7:41 PM
So, is it not just being a week behind on the paperwork but that he has a history of violations?

No, there NO past history of violations. He was a partner in another store in which one of the others embezzled money and the business went under. Nothing to do with ATF, but the ATF has brought it up in one of their reports. It has NOTING to do with this person, other than that he was a victim of that partner's actions. Different license, I just thought it was odd that he brought that up in the report.

hoffmang
04-24-2007, 7:59 PM
Trust Xeno's advice above. He knows this particular corner of firearms law better than me.

-Gene

xenophobe
04-25-2007, 2:59 AM
No, there NO past history of violations. He was a partner in another store in which one of the others embezzled money and the business went under. Nothing to do with ATF, but the ATF has brought it up in one of their reports. It has NOTING to do with this person, other than that he was a victim of that partner's actions. Different license, I just thought it was odd that he brought that up in the report.

If he had a license under a partnership or corporation with someone else, and has since received a new license, and still maintains the records of the previous license, he may still be held accountable for inconsistencies, errors or discrepancies in the previous licensee's actions or records. This is how they nailed Kerleys here in SJ. ATF was playing dirty on this one.

If he sent in the 4473's for the previous license when he transferred ownership to a new FFL, he shouldn't be able to be held liable, though the ATF can still try to screw him.

ATF is largely unregulated, and lately have been using this power in an abusive fashion. If the records are perfect, they'll leave you alone.

Also be aware, ATF has received increased funding since 9/11 and have used this money to trace audit, and will be looking for firearms that manufacturers and distributors have shipped but were never entered into the records...

CRTguns
04-25-2007, 8:28 PM
Look at the ATF.GOV site- there's al ink somewhere to see a list of revoked FFLs. they are listed chronologically, but the scary pattern that develops is that there will be like 10 from CA, then 8 from Arizona, then 9 from utah, then 4 from pensylvania, etc...etc... etc... they seem to pick an area, scour it for any discrepancy and pull the FFL. They're like locusts traveling from one area to the next leaving destruction behind.