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View Full Version : AW arrest but I don't think we should support this one.


Fjold
04-24-2007, 8:24 AM
Fishing excursion turns into weapons arrest


At first, Merced County Sheriff's Department deputies were summoned Monday afternoon to a remote location on a report of shots fired. Their later discovery of a stolen assault rifle led to the arrest of two men on weapons charges.

Deputy Kevin Blake, a member of the Sheriff's Tactical and Reconnaissance team, said deputies discovered a loaded Russian-made assault rifle equipped with a large- capacity banana-style ammunition clip in the trunk of a car at the dead end of Amsterdam Road near Princeton Road in the Hopeton area.

The assault rifle had been stolen from the Fresno area. Blake said Monday night that John Pryor, 25, of Sacramento, and James Morales, 38, of Stockton would be booked into Merced County Jail on charges of possession of an assault rifle, possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, and receiving stolen property.

Deputy Jason Cope received the initial report about 4 p.m. from a rancher of shots fired on Amsterdam Road and observed an unoccupied newer-model Ford Taurus four-door sedan.

Blake said the STAR team was summoned and the Taurus, with four occupants, was stopped nearby about 8 p.m. They reportedly had been fishing in the area.

The assault rifle, a Springfield 9-millimeter handgun, the detachable ammunition magazine and several boxes of ammunition were found underneath the spare tire cover in the vehicle's trunk, Blake said.

The ammunition included numerous high-powered rifle rounds capable of penetrating bulletproof vests. Also found was a small amount of marijuana, according to Blake.

resistor
04-24-2007, 8:29 AM
...equipped with a large- capacity banana-style ammunition clip

Those banana mags are a *****, especially when loaded with banannas! Someone might slip and hurt themselves...

tgriffin
04-24-2007, 8:31 AM
I hate how they are doing everything that they can to vilify guns using terms like "high-powered rifle rounds capable of penetrating bulletproof vests". The average joe doesnt know that A: all rifle rounds (eh, besides rimfire) are "high power" B: 90% of rifle rounds will defeat IIIA armor.

Really shows what their objectives are: ban all rifles except maybe rimfires, and then ban those too.

MrTuffPaws
04-24-2007, 9:19 AM
The ammunition included numerous high-powered rifle rounds capable of penetrating bulletproof vests.

:rolleyes: Did they have a 308 version because if not, who considers the 7.62x39 as a high power round?

Also, they better start calling them bullet resistant vests being that every news article that I read claims that the ammunition found can penetrate one.

E Pluribus Unum
04-24-2007, 9:21 AM
I hate how they are doing everything that they can to vilify guns using terms like "high-powered rifle rounds capable of penetrating bulletproof vests". The average joe doesnt know that A: all rifle rounds (eh, besides rimfire) are "high power" B: 90% of rifle rounds will defeat IIIA armor.

Really shows what their objectives are: ban all rifles except maybe rimfires, and then ban those too.

Ice picks go right through kevlar vests too.... lets ban those....

proraptor
04-24-2007, 9:53 AM
That high power rifle comment they made was ridiculous...I hate the media

M1A_KICHI
04-24-2007, 9:55 AM
Those banana mags are a *****, especially when loaded with banannas! Someone might slip and hurt themselves...

HAHAHAHA

CalNRA
04-24-2007, 10:11 AM
funny how they don't mention the banana style clip and vest-penetrating rounds when a bunch of full-autos get stolen from a SWAT van. But a civilian owns a semi auto, the world is coming to an end!!! :eek:

aileron
04-24-2007, 10:19 AM
Im more disturbed by.


Sheriff's Tactical and Reconnaissance team



Para-military... is not something I want to see in America.

scootergmc
04-24-2007, 10:37 AM
Im more disturbed by.

Para-military... is not something I want to see in America.

I'm confused--- A SWAT team is usually just that, a para-military assault/recon team. You don't like those?

-or you don't like their name? Sounds like they're trying to make their SWAT team a little more friendly-sounding...

Super_tactical
04-24-2007, 10:42 AM
Felony in possession of a stolen gun. Put him away.

I don't give a crap that it was an "AW". If it was a stolen .22, he should be in trouble.

hawk1
04-24-2007, 11:33 AM
We need to take up a collection to make sure they prosecute this case to it's fullest. If the DA needs a couple bucks so they don't bargain this down I'm in...:p

Quiet
04-24-2007, 12:25 PM
Felony in possession of a stolen gun. Put him away.

I don't give a crap that it was an "AW". If it was a stolen .22, he should be in trouble.

I agree 100% on this.


Russian-made assault rifle equipped with a large- capacity banana-style ammunition clip
SKS with detachable mag? Saiga with detachable mag? AK clone with detachable mag?

fairfaxjim
04-24-2007, 4:42 PM
Let's see,
Felon w/loaded, stolen rifle (AW and high cap mags irrelavent, except for Woooo wooo factor.)
Felon w/handgun.
Felon w/marijuana.

Looks like we finally got a good bust.

Could do without the LEO feeding the media inflamatory hype about banana clips, high powered this and high powered that and bullet proof vest BS. Would be cool if the media could tell the difference between a fact and a fairy tale too, but that is really wishing the tooth fairy was real.

Richie Rich
04-24-2007, 5:07 PM
Hopefully the stolen AW was registered and will be returned to it's rightful owner.

Other then that, throw the thieving morons in the slammer.

YIKES, high cap banana clips.

NoTime2Shoot
04-24-2007, 5:42 PM
Those banana mags are a *****, especially when loaded with banannas! Someone might slip and hurt themselves...

:D

That made me BiSON!

(Blow Snot Out Nose).

aileron
04-24-2007, 6:53 PM
I'm confused--- A SWAT team is usually just that, a para-military assault/recon team. You don't like those?

-or you don't like their name? Sounds like they're trying to make their SWAT team a little more friendly-sounding...

A couple swat teams dont bother me. A whole bunch throughout america do, and especially if they are becoming more military in their tactics and thinking.

Recon is what?

Reconnaissance is the military term for the active gathering of information about an enemy, or other conditions, by physical observation. It is part of combat intelligence. Compare to counterintelligence. Compare also to surveillance, which is passive gathering of information.

Read words like combat, enemy, active, physical observation. Compared to passive. Thats what bothers me about it.

scootergmc
04-24-2007, 7:31 PM
A couple swat teams dont bother me. A whole bunch throughout america do, and especially if they are becoming more military in their tactics and thinking.

Recon is what?

Read words like combat, enemy, active, physical observation. Compared to passive. Thats what bothers me about it.


You do know there are a bunch of SWAT teams throughout America? And they are trained in CQB, breaching, assault, which in and of itself, is a form of combat. Which lends itself to intel- gathering info the enemy, with active physical pro-active observation. Whether it's undercover, etc., whatever, it's recon. All part of doing your homework and briefing before making a hit.

I'm trying to understand your point. You think SWAT teams overstep their bounds and should wait for criminals to come out and surrender?

Mssr. Eleganté
04-24-2007, 9:08 PM
I'm trying to understand your point. You think SWAT teams overstep their bounds and should wait for criminals to come out and surrender?

I think his point is that SWAT (or STAR :rolleyes: ) teams were set up to deal with SLA bank takeovers and hostage crises, not for pulling over 4 guys in a Taurus.

http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/images/balko_overkill_3.jpg

shark92651
04-24-2007, 10:29 PM
Police departments are using them more and more in situations when they should not - like when they shoot an unarmed guy through his front door when investigating a stolen Sony PS3 when he answers the door with something dark in his hand (PS3 controller). True story - happened in NC a few months ago.

You do know there are a bunch of SWAT teams throughout America? And they are trained in CQB, breaching, assault, which in and of itself, is a form of combat. Which lends itself to intel- gathering info the enemy, with active physical pro-active observation. Whether it's undercover, etc., whatever, it's recon. All part of doing your homework and briefing before making a hit.

I'm trying to understand your point. You think SWAT teams overstep their bounds and should wait for criminals to come out and surrender?

grammaton76
04-25-2007, 12:40 AM
Blake said the STAR team was summoned and the Taurus, with four occupants, was stopped nearby about 8 p.m. They reportedly had been fishing in the area.

The STARS are supposed to restrain their activities to aliens and zombies. It's a good thing these felons didn't have the Nemesis along, or they'd have ended up in big trouble...

aileron
04-25-2007, 5:21 AM
scootergmc, what everybody above said. Like I said I don't have anything against SWAT. But we are seeing an increase in inappropriate military style tactics being used on a regular basis by law enforcement.

They are not the military. And we are not the enemy.

Just because criminals don't play fair, doesn't give them carte blanche to be Rambo's.

scootergmc
04-25-2007, 6:15 AM
scootergmc, what everybody above said. Like I said I don't have anything against SWAT. But we are seeing an increase in inappropriate military style tactics being used on a regular basis by law enforcement.

They are not the military. And we are not the enemy.

Just because criminals don't play fair, doesn't give them carte blanche to be Rambo's.


I guess we'll have to disagree. Criminals are scourge. And they are the enemy for those guys and the people for that matter. Nobody is giving them Carte Blanche. Warrants are still required but for certain situations. Equip them as best possible to do their jobs. Your definition of what their job should be is obviously different.

eta34
04-25-2007, 6:58 AM
This is not a flame aileron but a serious question...How should LEO's deal with violent criminals when serving search warrants and arrest warrants? As you see many times, they possess superior firepower when compared to the average patrolman. What is your proposal? Thanks.

arguy15
04-25-2007, 7:25 AM
"I don't think we should support this one."

Ya think.

pnkssbtz
04-25-2007, 8:05 AM
The STARS are supposed to restrain their activities to aliens and zombies. It's a good thing these felons didn't have the Nemesis along, or they'd have ended up in big trouble...Ahahaa.. I was thinking the same thing!!!!


I guess we'll have to disagree. Criminals are scourge. And they are the enemy for those guys and the people for that matter. Nobody is giving them Carte Blanche. Warrants are still required but for certain situations. Equip them as best possible to do their jobs. Your definition of what their job should be is obviously different.The problem is they are not being used for the appropriate situation. They are doing everything now even INVESTIGATING stolen property, like the PS3 controller fiasco.

Or the swat team raiding a house for evidence to a guy who hadn't even be indicted of a crime yet? http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/150906whistleblowerraided.htm

The swat teams now are being used for gestapo-esque venues. They are para-military and are heavy handed.


Swat teams are not to be used for responding to traffic stops, investigations, collecting evidence from non-violent suspects, drug busts on houses of elderly people, etc.


http://www.ketv.com/news/7409792/detail.html
http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/82205utrave.cfm
http://clintjcl.wordpress.com/2006/06/01/fairfax-swat-team-kills-optomistrist-article-from-fox-news/

Jeeze the SWAT is even being used to enforce the RIAA's COPYRIGHT...
http://hackmkultra.gnn.tv/blogs/21146/SWAT_Teams_Enforcing_Copyright_on_Dj_mixtapes

scootergmc
04-25-2007, 8:37 AM
Ahahaa.. I was thinking the same thing!!!!


The problem is they are not being used for the appropriate situation. They are doing everything now even INVESTIGATING stolen property, like the PS3 controller fiasco.

Or the swat team raiding a house for evidence to a guy who hadn't even be indicted of a crime yet? http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/150906whistleblowerraided.htm

The swat teams now are being used for gestapo-esque venues. They are para-military and are heavy handed.


Swat teams are not to be used for responding to traffic stops, investigations, collecting evidence from non-violent suspects, drug busts on houses of elderly people, etc.


http://www.ketv.com/news/7409792/detail.html
http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/82205utrave.cfm
http://clintjcl.wordpress.com/2006/06/01/fairfax-swat-team-kills-optomistrist-article-from-fox-news/

Jeeze the SWAT is even being used to enforce the RIAA's COPYRIGHT...
http://hackmkultra.gnn.tv/blogs/21146/SWAT_Teams_Enforcing_Copyright_on_Dj_mixtapes

Holy crap. SWAT teams should be banned. They are just plain a violation of civil rights. Send your $ to the ACLU.

Swat hits go down everyday. For every one that goes bad or does something you disagree with, there are tons of other ops conducted everyday, which are productive, legal, and otherwise uneventful.

Using a minute handful of examples to spoil the bunch is the same mentality of the anti-gun movement.

tmuller
04-25-2007, 8:39 AM
but jeez SWAT for 4 guys in a Taurus coming back from fishing. +1 pnkssbtz Was this guy convicted of a violent felony...where the other 3 felons also...were they the ones that stole the AW? Scetchy details but all I can say is I hope I don't ever get pulled over by a STAR/SWAT team. Although I'm not so dumb as to shoot up some hill next to a farmers house...arrest these guys for stupidity.

scootergmc
04-25-2007, 8:47 AM
but jeez SWAT for 4 guys in a Taurus coming back from fishing. +1 pnkssbtz Was this guy convicted of a violent felony...where the other 3 felons also...were they the ones that stole the AW? Scetchy details but all I can say is I hope I don't ever get pulled over by a STAR/SWAT team. Although I'm not so dumb as to shoot up some hill next to a farmers house...arrest these guys for stupidity.

...or try being the one LEO that rolls up on the traffic stop and gets gunned down. That never happens now does it. :rolleyes:

+1 for having intel prior to the stop.

dicast
04-25-2007, 9:33 AM
you don't THINK we should support it? the answer is big NO NO. not even think about it. what we should do is get the guns back to the rightful owner.

pnkssbtz
04-25-2007, 10:20 AM
Holy crap. SWAT teams should be banned. They are just plain a violation of civil rights. Send your $ to the ACLU. This is a disingenuous statement. I never said they should be banned. Here, let me quote myself for the reading impaired...
The problem is they are not being used for the appropriate situation.
I know sometimes I "wall of text" people so it is hard to pick out the actual bits that are logic from the insane ramblings...

Swat hits go down everyday. For every one that goes bad or does something you disagree with, there are tons of other ops conducted everyday, which are productive, legal, and otherwise uneventful.There is nothing wrong with swat being used properly. However the swat should not be responding to investigate a stolen video game console with weapons drawn. They should not be arresting an optometrist whos crime was internet gambling, as if he was a violent felon wanted in 15 states for murder and armed robbery. The swat also should not be doing no-knock entrys into homes and business for the sole purposes of enforcing copyright laws. THAT IS THE JURISDICTION OF THE COURTS, not the police.

Using a minute handful of examples to spoil the bunch is the same mentality of the anti-gun movement.Ahaha, nice job there at discrediting my 2 minutes of researching by typing "swat abuse" into google! You then tack on the "same mentality of anti-gun movment" non-sequitur to associate me with an adverse group who is generally despised here and viola! Guilt by association.


And how do my examples "spoil the bunch"? Did I not cite examples were SWAT was used in the wrong circumstances? The answer is yes. None of the people in the situations I described warranted a take down at gun point. They were not violent and not known to be armed.

In the case of the RIAA a pair of detectives with a warrant would of been a better approach to the situation than a swat entry team blowing the lock and busting the door and assaulting the suspects from multiple points. The guy was a DJ and his "piracy" is arguable and is harder to define than our CA gun laws. That is the jurisdiction of the courts to decide. Securing evidence could of been done via a warrant and 2 detectives. But the RIAA has been using the Police and FBI to enforce its policy for a while.


It is apparent that you have some form of association, bias, whatever towards the SWAT team and are defending them from a position that need not be defended from.

Not a SINGLE PERSON here has so far said they need to be abolished. There were a few disparaging remarks at the "para-military" nature but SWAT are POLICE and CIVILIANS and should operate on standard Civilian LEO parameters. Leave the "shoot first ask questions later" routine to Seal Teams and Delta Force if the fecal matter hits the pot. These are Civilians who are here to "Uphold and Protect the Law."



Instead of coming up with appeal to emotion grandiose statements, why don't you take each of my points, and refute them with argument or facts instead of taking the entirety of what I said, associate it with Gun-Grabbers and say that I am "spoiling it" (for who, I am still uncertain...)

I am not 100% right. I am probably not even 50% right. I am wrong a lot of the time. I even put my foot in my mouth a lot too. But if I am wrong, refute my position such that I reconsider my point of view and my point of view will change. That is what debate is all about. Holding an opinion despite credible evidence and logical argument means that the opinion being held is not founded on logic and reality, but idealism which is impossible to argue with.

Its like me trying to have a discussion with someone but they keep interjecting and denying my reasoning by saying "because Jesus says so."

ravenbkp
04-25-2007, 10:36 AM
Special Weapons and tactics teams have their place. Having said that you get a report of someone shooting in a semi rural area and you call out the SWAT team ? WTF is that? Why not just call in some arty or an air strike? People being taken at gun point and shoved out prone when they tell LE they have a locked case in the trunk? thats the problem treating ordinary lawful activities as if they make you a member of the Manson family that is the problem!

scootergmc
04-25-2007, 12:41 PM
This is a disingenuous statement. I never said they should be banned etc, etc, etc,blah blah, blah.

Quote yourself all you want. Of course my whole response was disingenuous, sarcastic, and baiting. Of course there are instances when SWAT has been used needlessly, Of that I admit. I'm not attempting to have a quantitative internet debate with you. I'm just quickly pointing out the other side of the coin (bias or not, I like to play devil's advocate)- there is a need for SWAT teams and there are often occassions when it is better to "shoot first." The fact everyone is so quick to come out and say SWAT is evil (no, I know nobody specifically said that) and shouldn't be used except for _________ obviously all have the same 5, 10, whatever examples. Everybody's internet-google-fu is up to par. I'm not here to refute all your points and change your point of view. I'm just pointing out the other side. You're definitely not going to change mine. Does police abuse exist? Yes, obviously.

SWAT was proper in the original post in this thread. I could post thousands of examples where heavy handed SWAT teams are needed. But I don't need to. We all know it's true because Jesus said so.

Fjold
04-25-2007, 12:50 PM
you don't THINK we should support it? the answer is big NO NO. not even think about it. what we should do is get the guns back to the rightful owner.


Sarcasm doesn't translate well into print but I think most people understood that though.


"Light'en up Francis" - Bill Murray (From the movie "Stripes")

pieeater
04-25-2007, 7:43 PM
http://www.fototime.com/371C683B163129F/standard.jpg

dychen
04-25-2007, 7:59 PM
The police wouldnt have known these guys where felons until after they arrested them. This just as well could have been one of us out in a rural area shooting a legally configured SKS or AR or whatever and the next thing you know you got a SWAT team coming down on you.

I think its really heavy handed

VeryCoolCat
04-25-2007, 8:12 PM
I hate how they are doing everything that they can to vilify guns using terms like "high-powered rifle rounds capable of penetrating bulletproof vests". The average joe doesnt know that A: all rifle rounds (eh, besides rimfire) are "high power" B: 90% of rifle rounds will defeat IIIA armor.

Really shows what their objectives are: ban all rifles except maybe rimfires, and then ban those too.

.17 HMR can go throuhg vests I hear.

Clodbuster
04-26-2007, 11:51 AM
Actually, no. The STARS team is suppose to react to all threats. But their authority is limited to Racoon City, which just happened to be full of zombies.

The fact that some PD named their special team after a video game leaves me quite speechless.

Clod

The STARS are supposed to restrain their activities to aliens and zombies. It's a good thing these felons didn't have the Nemesis along, or they'd have ended up in big trouble...