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USMC_2651_E5
04-23-2007, 7:44 PM
Just wondering if it would be possible for a LEO to get an OLL AR pistol considering the LEO exemption for non-rostered handguns that DOJ just recognized on thier website. I understand it would need to be fixed mag, not have a handguard, and couldn't have a threaded barrel when built. It seems like it would be kosher to me, any thoughts?

hoffmang
04-23-2007, 7:58 PM
I think there is no SB-23 compliant way to build that.

It has a magazine outside of the pistol grip. You could buy an already built AR pistol with a magazine pinned outside of California, but your couldn't bring in a lower and build it.

-Gene

USMC_2651_E5
04-23-2007, 8:25 PM
What I found under 12276.1 regarding magazines in other locations than the grip seems to use "capacity to accept a detachable magazine" language that would be negated by a mag lock, just like with rifles.

hoffmang
04-23-2007, 8:44 PM
Correct, but this does mean that you have to buy a built and pinned AR pistol from outside of the state. You can't just build it up here.

-Gene

USMC_2651_E5
04-23-2007, 8:54 PM
Ok, I understand that you don't want to bring it in without the fixed mag as it would be an AW. But, not wanting to start a debate, would it have to be pinned, or could you order it with a prince 50 or bullet button and magazine installed when shipped? And if you did order it with the fixed mag, why would the rest of the lower need to be built up? BTW, thanks for the help Hoffmang.

gn3hz3ku1*
04-23-2007, 8:54 PM
can the leo then transfer/sell the AR pistol to friend since he is tired of it?

blkA4alb
04-23-2007, 8:58 PM
Ok, I understand that you don't want to bring it in without the fixed mag as it would be an AW. But, not wanting to start a debate, would it have to be pinned, or could you order it with a prince 50 or bullet button and magazine installed when shipped?

Why not start a debate? Its how things get worked out and discovered.

When I think about this if the LEO was to buy the firearm and have it equipped with a fixed magazine (Prince50 put in by CWS) then have it shipped into the state, I don't see a problem with this. If it is not an AW then it would be no different than say an off list Colt Python that the LEO wanted. I'm sure Gene and I will discuss this later, or maybe we already agree.

blkA4alb
04-23-2007, 8:59 PM
can the leo then transfer/sell the AR pistol to friend since he is tired of it?

I will tentatively say yes, IMO.

USMC_2651_E5
04-23-2007, 9:15 PM
This would be the ticket if you sent the seller a mag lock and 10 rounder http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7960345

hoffmang
04-23-2007, 9:19 PM
As long as it enters the state with a working mag lock and a 10 round magazine in the well, its salable to a LEO.

-Gene

fun2none
04-24-2007, 1:47 AM
This would be the ticket if you sent the seller a mag lock and 10 rounder http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7960345

The Assault Weapon Identification Guide (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf) lists the "Professional Ordnance Carbon-15 (pistol)".

USMC_2651_E5
04-24-2007, 8:27 AM
Yes, I checked the roster after i posted that. But a Bushy in similar config (with mag lock) would be cool. Any one know an FFL willing to do a transfer?

Dump1567
04-25-2007, 10:52 AM
Just to add to this debate, if it's a stripped virgin receiver, it has no pistol grip. So how would capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip apply?

Technically it's a virgin (not rifle or pistol) receiver when it shows-up at your dealer. Not until he logs it into his book or on the 4473 does it become one or the other.

If needed, why couldn't the ten rounder be affixed during that time of limbo?

Talk about gray area.;)

xenophobe
04-25-2007, 11:59 AM
Because the FFL in-state cannot manufacture a pistol for sale that does not meet SB-15 requirements, even if it is for sale only to LE.

The pistol would have to be built out of state, and be made CA-compliant out of state. If the FFL receives the firearm without a fixed magazine, he's guilty of importing an unlawful assault weapon.

AJAX22
04-25-2007, 1:45 PM
doesn't the fixed magazine requirement only apply to semi auto pistols? Isn't a dissasembled lower non-semi automatic since it can be assembled either as a semi or a straight pull bolt action?

I don't understand how any pistol (or frame) can have the 'simi auto' attribute if it is a bare receiver.

by that logic couldn't we import any stripped frame we want? its not illigal to convert a bolt action into a simi auto in this state.

hoffmang
04-25-2007, 2:09 PM
You are in a land of very grey interpretation. I doubt even a gung-ho CA FFL would be willing to risk the DROS of an AR pistol that wasn't already mag pinned.

This is completely due to the fact that the handgun is by definition an AW if it has a detachable magazine outside the grip.

-Gene

Dump1567
04-25-2007, 6:51 PM
This is completely due to the fact that the handgun is by definition an AW if it has a detachable magazine outside the grip.

But a stripped receiver has no pistol grip.:confused:

We can all assume we know where the grip would go, but we could also do that on a gripless AR.

Isn't this fun?:D

tenpercentfirearms
04-26-2007, 6:26 PM
My question is how do the rifle converted to a handgun laws apply? Is there anything federal or state that talks about taking what was meant to be a rifle receiver and make it a handgun? So when does this thing need to be a pistol as far as paperwork goes? Does it have to be a pistol from the manufacturer? So would that limit you to a pistol marked lower like from Bushy or RRA?

Dump1567
04-26-2007, 9:02 PM
My question is how do the rifle converted to a handgun laws apply? Is there anything federal or state that talks about taking what was meant to be a rifle receiver and make it a handgun? So when does this thing need to be a pistol as far as paperwork goes? Does it have to be a pistol from the manufacturer? So would that limit you to a pistol marked lower like from Bushy or RRA?

Here ya go:

http://www.jcweaponry.com/images/ar15/BB.JPG

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/ATFEARPistolInternetletter.jpg

dicast
05-09-2007, 12:15 AM
can a leo officer buy a handgun not on DOJ list for personal use?

tenpercentfirearms
05-09-2007, 6:57 AM
can a leo officer buy a handgun not on DOJ list for personal use?

No, it has to be for duty use. Just remember, officers are on duty 24/7. :rolleyes:

dicast
05-09-2007, 10:14 AM
wes, what do you need from leo to buy? letterlead from the department or just ID?

Dump1567
05-09-2007, 10:53 AM
I'm going to have to disagree on this one. I don't recall reading anything about duty use only, just that the purchaser is allowed to carry as LEO as part of their job.

Remember, every off-list gun brought into this State by an LEO, could mean one more off-list gun sold used. I think every dealer needs to get on board with this. Everyone will benefit. Especially with the new mag-disconnect law in effect.

Dump1567
05-09-2007, 10:54 AM
wes, what do you need from leo to buy? letterlead from the department or just ID?

I.D. card.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/exemptpo.php

RANGER295
05-09-2007, 12:15 PM
This is probably going beyond grey area but… Is an open mag well with no mag catch constitute a detachable mag? If you wanted to be very technical about it, it is impossible to detach something that can not be attached. In a sense it would be a magless weapon at that point.

AJAX also has a point, unless it has an upper on it, the weapon is technically not semi-auto. This is something that I have thought about in terms of an OLL. If there is no upper on it, how can they call it semi-auto? If you were to transport your OLL without the upper on it, technically they should not be able to touch you regardless of the features. Granted some receivers are have semi-auto stamped on the side… but these are just some thoughts sorry for getting off topic.

Dump1567
05-09-2007, 12:38 PM
Ship it with some form of magwell plug.

12133. (b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

dicast
05-09-2007, 11:11 PM
any ffl dealer please jump on this.

tenpercentfirearms
05-10-2007, 7:06 AM
LOL. Yeah every dealer ought to jump on this highly gray area so that every officer in the state can risk losing their job and FFL dealers can get shut down over a fixed magazine AR pistol. :rolleyes:

There are a lot of reasons why you should not be in a hurry for this to happen. First, the DOJ is claiming that the firearm has to be for duty use. Now the penal code doesn't really say, but as we all know the DOJ can kind of do what they want to some extent.

So if they don't like the fact that you as a LEO are buying all of these pistols and brining them and selling them right away in a PPT, they can easily ask your chief if they know what is going on. Depending on what department you are in, they might not like that and they might not back you up. So then the DOJ starts a case because of all of your sales, it appears you are actually conducting business as a FFL. So basically you end up spending lots of time in court, you lose your job, and the FFL might not get his CFD renewed all for a fixed magazine pistol.

No thanks.

Now if a LEO wants to buy an off list handgun and sell it in a irregular time period every once in a while, that probably won't bring much scrutiny, especially if it isn't a firearm that is going to draw attention, unlike a fixed magazine AR15 pistol would.

Sorry, but these little fetishes are not worth me losing my business over and shouldn't be worth losing a cop's job. AR15s and AK47s are one thing. You have to be practical in what fights you are going to fight.

dicast
05-10-2007, 9:54 AM
hahaha I don't want an AR pistol. I just want me a SA XD 45acp bi-tone.

Dump1567
05-10-2007, 10:27 AM
LOL. Yeah every dealer ought to jump on this highly gray area so that every officer in the state can risk losing their job and FFL dealers can get shut down over a fixed magazine AR pistol. :rolleyes:

I Don't see this as a gray area. I thought the memo was pretty clear.

There are a lot of reasons why you should not be in a hurry for this to happen. First, the DOJ is claiming that the firearm has to be for duty use. Now the penal code doesn't really say, but as we all know the DOJ can kind of do what they want to some extent.

Was this per a conversation you had with DOJ?

So if they don't like the fact that you as a LEO are buying all of these pistols and brining them and selling them right away in a PPT, they can easily ask your chief if they know what is going on. Depending on what department you are in, they might not like that and they might not back you up. So then the DOJ starts a case because of all of your sales, it appears you are actually conducting business as a FFL. So basically you end up spending lots of time in court, you lose your job, and the FFL might not get his CFD renewed all for a fixed magazine pistol.

I think the law already speaks of the infrequent sell. Something like less than 6 a year. Common sense would dictate not flipping these for a profit.

No thanks.

Now if a LEO wants to buy an off list handgun and sell it in a irregular time period every once in a while, that probably won't bring much scrutiny, especially if it isn't a firearm that is going to draw attention, unlike a fixed magazine AR15 pistol would.

I agree.

Sorry, but these little fetishes are not worth me losing my business over and shouldn't be worth losing a cop's job. AR15s and AK47s are one thing. You have to be practical in what fights you are going to fight.

As a dealer, your free to run your bussiness as you wish & can refuse to do certain types of transfers. It's not your job to know what every Agency in your area is authorized to carry on or off-duty. Obviously if you see an LEO abusing this privledge, you may not want him as a customer.



It all comes down to the interpretation of the memo. For me it's no different than the standard mag issue for LEO. I interpret the memo as written. I don't read anything about duty use only in it. I think if they wanted strickly duty use only, they would have stuck with the letter from your chief rule. Same thing on the mag issue. Prior to the fed ban going away, LEO were required to get a letter. The DOJ could have stuck with this policy for duty use only if they wanted and required a letter.

If that was the DOJ's intent (regardless of what the law says), why the current memo and change?

And unlike other DOJ memo's, this one adds weight to support it.;)

The real issue is why can LEO's buy & use handguns the State deem as unsafe? :eek:

tenpercentfirearms
05-10-2007, 10:51 PM
Yes I got the duty use thing from a phone conversation. I agree, the penal code nor the memo says anything about duty use.

I will still choose not to open myself up for a liability like this. I guess I can always hide behind the "if we can't get it, LEO doesn't need it either" bravado.

KrazyKevy
05-31-2007, 3:48 PM
Are LEOs allowed to purchase pistols with threaded barrels?

Dump1567
05-31-2007, 6:56 PM
Are LEOs allowed to purchase pistols with threaded barrels?

Assault weapon.


Pistols

(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to
fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.


With Dept. approval as with any other assault weapons.