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View Full Version : National Guard Is Not A "militia"


MIKEUSMC2005
04-20-2007, 7:38 PM
If anyone ever tells you that a "militia" is the National Guard, have them read what the founding fathers were thinking. If I'm not mistaken the National Guard is control by the Federal Gov.


Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." -- George Washington, Commanding General of the Continental Army, Father of Our Country and First President of the United States, Address to the 2nd Session, 1st Congress, 1789.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson, Author of The Declaration of Independence, and President of the United States.

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. ...Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." - Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Member of the Constitutional Convention, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789


Sometimes courts went farther. When in 1837, Georgia totally banned the sale of pistols (excepting the larger pistols "known and used as horsemen's pistols" ) and other weapons, the Georgia Supreme Court in Nunn v. State held the statute unconstitutional under the Second Amendment to the federal Constitution. The court held that the Bill of Rights protected natural rights which were fully as capable of infringement by states as by the federal government and that the Second Amendment provided

"the right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not merely such as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in on, in the slightest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying of a well regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free state.

Pvt. Cowboy
04-20-2007, 7:49 PM
For years after the LA Riots, I responded to anti-gun people who insisted that the National Guard was the 'Well-Regulated Militia' about how their well-regulated militia of fat retards showed up in Los Angeles with only 2000 rounds of ammo for the 2000 Guardsmen who were called up just in time for the riots to be over.

You heard correctly: One bullet each. A whole day was spent converting their M16A1s to semi-auto only before they were let out to patrol the streets.

One day I may finally summon up the gumption to retell my West LA Riots story here on Calguns.

Satex
04-20-2007, 7:52 PM
If anyone ever tells you that a "militia" is the National Guard, have them read what the founding fathers were thinking. If I'm not mistaken the National Guard is control by the Federal Gov.


How does any of that refute the fact that the national guard is not a militia?

Main Entry: mi·li·tia
Pronunciation: m&-'li-sh&
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, military service, from milit-, miles
1 a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2 : the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service

Librarian
04-20-2007, 7:55 PM
The statement should be that the NG is not the militia; it certainly is a militia, but there is more than one.

But of course, militia is only slightly related to anything we talk about in these topics/threads.

wutzu
04-20-2007, 7:57 PM
The US Code specifically defines "The Militia" as all able-bodied males between the ages of 18 and 49. Would cite chapter and verse but don't know it offhand.

Satex
04-20-2007, 7:57 PM
For years after the LA Riots, I responded to anti-gun people who insisted that the National Guard was the 'Well-Regulated Militia' about how their well-regulated militia ...

Surely you don't confuse national guard incompetence with constitutional intent? Or to put it in simpler words: how does the fact that the national guard was incompetent in handling the LA riots tie to the fact that 2A advocates a “well regulated militia”?

xenophobe
04-20-2007, 8:03 PM
10 USC § 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.[/indent][/indent]

hoffmang
04-20-2007, 8:05 PM
The National Guard is Select Militia.

-Gene

wutzu
04-21-2007, 4:17 AM
10 USC § 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.[/indent][/indent]

That's the one!

Bishop
04-21-2007, 7:10 AM
I always just quote 12 and 13 from the 40 reasons to ban guns:

12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard, which
was created 130 years later, in 1917.

13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land, using
federally-owned weapons, vehicles, buildings and uniforms, punishing
trespassers under federal law, is a "state" militia.

One day I may finally summon up the gumption to retell my West LA Riots story here on Calguns.

What if you told us a story??? Or perhaps a hypothetical situation or experience? Or maybe pm??? ;)

MIKEUSMC2005
04-21-2007, 10:15 AM
The founding fathers wanted everyone and anyone to own firearms. It was the belief back then and it's extremly relevent today.

What was meant in the origianl posting was that the "militia" in the 2nd Amendment is all citizens of the United States, not just a military force.


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." THOMAS JEFFERSON


"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. ...Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Member of the Constitutional Convention, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789

dawson8r
04-21-2007, 10:27 AM
Make sure you have at least 24 rounds of ammunition before showing up to serve in the militia:

http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm

M. Sage
04-21-2007, 10:37 AM
Make sure you have at least 24 rounds of ammunition before showing up to serve in the militia:

Hahah, I think I've got enough to share, in that case.

I, too, want to hear anything out of the riots from Pvt. Cowboy.

billym
04-21-2007, 12:22 PM
10 USC § 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.[/indent][/indent]

Hey I am part of a militia! Didn't know it until now; I need more ammo.:)

brando
04-21-2007, 2:14 PM
What kills me is that whenever folks bring up this militia crap, it always seems to be for the reason of justifying certain firearms ownership issues, not over any real duty. During my time in other states I've seen "the militia" and it's kind of scary and really quite sad. If anything, every honorably discharged firearms owning veteran should be considered a militia member in case of dire emergency like the near collapse of civilization from an asteroid impact ;)

MIKEUSMC2005
04-21-2007, 3:18 PM
Or when the Governement gets out of control and is no longer for the people as our fore fathers insisted.

Pvt. Cowboy
04-21-2007, 4:03 PM
Surely you don't confuse national guard incompetence with constitutional intent? Or to put it in simpler words: how does the fact that the national guard was incompetent in handling the LA riots tie to the fact that 2A advocates a “well regulated militia”?

I'm not confused, and stop calling me Shirley. :D

Antis and Pros have been arguing for some time over the segment 'Well Regulated' in that it's context means well-drilled, well-supplied, and well-prepared. Well, alright. Let's look at that.

The CA National Guard was none of those things in the '92 LA Riots. They didn't even have meals when they showed up, much less ammunition and water. It was like Los Angeles was supporting another 2000+ refugees fleeing INTO the conflict area, most of them accepting handouts from whatever citizens had the means to provide the materials. Ammunition, food, water. The third day of the riots was effectively the end of the major conflict and it was after that time that the 'Guard's supplies arrived for them to build their little tent cities that lasted a few weeks after the riots as they maintained order. Guardsman's girlfriends and families were driving carloads of McDonalds burgers to their units just to get them fed. "Dad, bring me the ammo from home. We need .45 ACP and whatever .223 you can dig up as long as it's not soft-point or hollow point." I think I even saw a reporter from KCOP-13 mentioning that some Guardsmen were using 'dumdum' bullets from home, which is illegal. The greater Los Angeles area police departments that came from all over the LA basin were even trying to stock the 'Guard up with some ammo until that was curtailed because the police could use hollowpoint pistol ammo but the 'Guard couldn't. Only when the Marines showed up on Day 3 did the hysteria seem to subside.

Also, If I recall correctly, the grand poohbah of the CA National Guard retired abruptly after that deployment spectacle and was replaced by Gov. Wilson with someone who was tasked with getting the wheels back on the wagon.

That was just a small anecdote of outrage under a mountain of outrages that were the LA Riots, so the matter only got the briefest coverage in the media. Nowadays, those recollections are all lost to history. You probably won't find accounts of these incidents on whatever WWW web pages cover the history of the LA Riots, but if you had LexisNexis access I'm sure that you'd find something in the archives of the newspapers that covered it. Public access to the Internet was only beginning to emerge in '92, so most of the real-time accounts of the LA Riot action communications on a personal level outside of the mainstream media were posted on dial-up BBSs, all of which are long gone. For those of you that go back to the days of dial-up BBSes, I think I was posting on 'Manhattan Transfer BBS' at the time, amongst others like Code3BBS and WLA BBS. Whatever first hand accounts survived from that time will probably only be found in the archives of major mainstream newspapers, and boy, did they tell it like it wasn't.

I'll look through my old Iomega JAZ drive discs (the ones that still work, assuming the drive in a box in the closet still does) and see if I can find the archives I saved from floppy diskettes of the LA Riots. It wrote my accounts as it happened and saved the interesting stuff people were posting on the BBS boards of what was going on in their areas. I'll post a condensed version here if I can ever find them. The story would pretty much only cover how I stayed home from work and bunkered down in a West LA apartment across the 405 freeway on the border of Inglewood while the smell of smoke from the countless arson fires hung in the air, choppers flew overhead, and the streets were deserted of anyone but cops during the curfew hours. Most of my time was watching several TVs, posting on BBSes and learning how the violence was getting closer to where I lived. The several weeks afterwards were really a mess too. It was a wild ride that thoroughly cemented my opinion about RKBA mission in times of social disorder. Gunless liberals in West LA/Santa Monica/Baja Beverly Hills were wetting themselves in terror once the violence finally came across Sepulveda Blvd, which is why I typically regard anti-gunner's rhetoric as callow ignorance.

The riots were three whole days of anarchy where the government's first responders were powerless to stop it. Trust me, the LAPD and LASO can get themselves into hot water a hell of a lot faster than they can get out of it. Their highly media-publicized policy mistakes become your emergency, not theirs, when the social fabric finally unravels. The cops were too busy looking out for their own safety to be worrying about yours. If there's one thing to take away as a lesson from the '92 LA Riots, it's that. I wasn't in too bad of a spot, but the riots came more local to me than 90% of the people in the whole greater LA area. If it would have gone on for a few more days, it could have turned lots worse than it was. I sure can imagine what it was like for Koreans sleeping on the roofs of their businesses for a couple days. It wasn't just Los Angeles that was affected, there were outbreaks of violence in San Bernardino and Riverside and even San Francisco as well.

Any time I hear a pontificating anti-RKBA advocate claim that the 2nd Amendment has no relevance to our sturdy modern zeitgeist, I just guffaw and wonder 'Where were you in '92?'.

hoffmang
04-21-2007, 11:56 PM
I personally know one of the "lieutenants" deployed to the riots.

They were heading off to exercises where they thought they'd be playing in the dirt and driving Humvees.

They ended up on the streets of LA without armored Humvees or Ammo.

Imagine if you figured you were going to DisneyLand and you got diverted at the gate to the Sunni Triangle.

-Gene