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big103
04-03-2012, 6:32 PM
Well what do you guys think. The first one is a WWII M18 Swiss helmet I believe. Just got it in the mail from Numrich Gun Parts for $27 which is not bad I think. It`s used an looks like it has been around the block. Big hunk paint missing on one side. I wanted to get Latigos opinion on the second one the first also.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1509.jpg
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1508.jpg
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1507.jpg
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1511.jpg
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1512.jpg
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1510.jpg

big103
04-03-2012, 6:33 PM
Here is the second post war model. But the thing with it is I would like to find out about the decal on the side. In the first pic. Found this one at a fle market years ago for $15 not bad I think. So Latigo do you know what the decal means?
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1517.jpg
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1518.jpg
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1519.jpg
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1524.jpg
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j370/big1031/justins/100_1525.jpg

dogfood
04-03-2012, 6:54 PM
if im not mistaken, that's the nazi stormtrooper logo on that decal

bruceflinch
04-03-2012, 7:44 PM
I said get a helmet to protect the "little" head...:facepalm:

:D

TKM
04-03-2012, 8:05 PM
if im not mistaken, that's the nazi stormtrooper logo on that decal

Public school?

bob7122
04-03-2012, 8:27 PM
would the helmets be able to stop a .223 round if they were shot today?

bruceflinch
04-03-2012, 8:31 PM
would the helmets be able to stop a .223 round if they were shot today?

Send Big103 $27 & we'll find out this weekend! What distance should we test at? :)

Shotgun Willie
04-03-2012, 8:51 PM
SA, Sturmabteilung, the Brownshirts.

Mojaveman
04-03-2012, 9:04 PM
Interesting find.

By any chance do you have a Swiss K-31 to go with them?

dustoff31
04-03-2012, 9:13 PM
SA, Sturmabteilung, the Brownshirts.

This. ^

Another example of the insignia is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung

Grizzly1970
04-03-2012, 9:21 PM
Think the decal is something someone put on the helmet, it is the 70's era issue and the first one is actually their 1918 Swiss helmet that was issue all the way too WW2 and beyond.

nick
04-03-2012, 9:26 PM
Public school?

Nope, he's right. Now, where did you go to school? :p

dogfood
04-03-2012, 9:33 PM
Public school?

In the British sense of the term, yes.

big103
04-03-2012, 9:48 PM
This. ^

Another example of the insignia is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung

Intriguing dint know that my helmet was a Nazi.


So now was this something done after by some guy who got it or was this something they used in Switzerland.

Oh it is painted on I believe.

big103
04-03-2012, 9:50 PM
would the helmets be able to stop a .223 round if they were shot today?

For $50 anything is possible.:32:

Warrior King
04-03-2012, 11:13 PM
Integrating dint know that my helmet was a Nazi.


So now was this something done after by some guy who got it or was this something they used in Switzerland.

Oh it is painted on I believe.

There were Swiss Nazis. The Swiss fascists were a force to be reckoned with and complicated Swiss politics, because the Swiss were afraid if they were too harsh with the Swiss Nazis it would provoke Germany. Only when it was clear that the allies were winning the war did popular opinion began to turn against the Swiss fascist movement, and at that time the Swiss government began to deal with the Swiss fascist threat.

In terms of the helmet it could be similar to the type of helmet used in Germany by the brown shirts or Freicorps for marches etc before Hitler came to power, that is a surplus helmet that was used by a private army.

fighterpilot562
04-04-2012, 12:30 AM
really nice!

Latigo
04-04-2012, 6:22 AM
I got beat to the punch. :D Busy most of yesterday.
There's a little more to it with that helmet, but I'll have to get my Dad involved.

TKM
04-04-2012, 7:09 AM
Nope, he's right. Now, where did you go to school? :p


The term Sturmabteilung predates the founding of the Nazi Party in 1919.

big103
04-04-2012, 12:26 PM
I got beat to the punch. :D Busy most of yesterday.
There's a little more to it with that helmet, but I'll have to get my Dad involved.

So it sounds like it was something done in Switzerland. Any more info would be appreciated.

dogfood
04-04-2012, 12:42 PM
The term Sturmabteilung predates the founding of the Nazi Party in 1919.

but are you saying i'm wrong? that it isn't a stormtrooper decal? despite the term predating the party (as you shown with your quote lifted from wiki) the decal in question was a nazi stormtrooper decal. are you taking issue with my choice of words? i'm afraid i don't quite understand.

Latigo
04-04-2012, 1:24 PM
Hey! Mine shirt is bin brown und Ve bin havin schturm bin freakin schtoff on our helmets! Und ve are vatchink you!

big103
04-04-2012, 2:05 PM
:leaving:Ich bin kein Nazi Braunhemden.

bigcasino
04-04-2012, 6:43 PM
That is the original UPS logo that's why they ware brown shirts and drive brown trucks... I love the brown trucks :jump:

waffenfabrik_
04-05-2012, 12:54 AM
Geistige Landesverteidigung ~ Défense Spirituelle ~ Difesa Spirituale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_defence) Swiss anti Nazi propaganda

There are people who would do evi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Movement_of_Switzerland)l just about anywhere and at any time.

Dreaded Claymore
04-05-2012, 1:08 AM
There were Swiss Nazis. The Swiss fascists were a force to be reckoned with and complicated Swiss politics, because the Swiss were afraid if they were too harsh with the Swiss Nazis it would provoke Germany. Only when it was clear that the allies were winning the war did popular opinion began to turn against the Swiss fascist movement, and at that time the Swiss government began to deal with the Swiss fascist threat.

Is this how Germany was able to get Switzerland to hide all their stolen Jew gold?

1-M-42
04-05-2012, 7:41 AM
Actually, the Swiss Government was anti-nazi during the entire war period, even imprisoning many of the members of the Swiss Socialist Party. True, they treaded a fine line in that they supplied the Germans with war material but did so with the permission of the allies. This was due to their being landlocked and being the only free republic surrounded by Germany, Facsist Italy and Occupied France. They needed food and materials to maintain the country and couldn't get them unless there was an arrangement with Germany. Their anti-nazi stance caused great consternation to Hitler and his cronies and there were dozens of plans to invade Switzerland all the way up to the end of 1944. General Guisan, military leader of the Swiss forces actually had a secret agreement with the French Military for mutual defense right up until the French were rolled up.

Warrior King
04-05-2012, 7:45 AM
Antisemitism was not just a German trait. For example the Germans, had a lot of willing accomplices in the persecution of the Jews, and the final solution in Poland. What is more remarkable were the few societies or groups that refused for the most part to be a part of the final solution even on pain of death. One group was the Hugonaughts in France. Some of the low countries also stand out for aiding Jews like the Netherlands. The U.S. also had a fascist party before the war. Of course the KKK, and American segregation inspired Hitler before he came to power.

Switzerland was never occupied of course, and was a neutral country. However, the idea that Switzerland remained neutral only because of the Swiss army is only part of the picture. When Germany/ Axis powers were the strongest force in the world, Swiss diplomacy and society became more pro German, and compliant to German demands.

On the micro level I do not know the figures but a segment of Swiss society was pro German and even fascist. The complexity of the situation was reflected in the way the Swiss treated Allied internees. Some of the allied airman that were forced to land in Switzerland during the war were held under unnecessarily brutal conditions in concentration camps. My guess is that some of the harsh treatment went beyond just an abuse of power, but reflected the political leanings of the commandant and guards against the Allies, and the bombing campaigns that were destroying Germany and by accident some Swiss villages... etc.

bruceflinch
04-05-2012, 7:49 AM
This is turning into quite a History Lesson! Wundebar!

Warrior King
04-05-2012, 8:25 AM
Actually, the Swiss Government was anti-nazi during the entire war period, even imprisoning many of the members of the Swiss Socialist Party. True, they treaded a fine line in that they supplied the Germans with war material but did so with the permission of the allies. This was due to their being landlocked and being the only free republic surrounded by Germany, Facsist Italy and Occupied France. They needed food and materials to maintain the country and couldn't get them unless there was an arrangement with Germany. Their anti-nazi stance caused great consternation to Hitler and his cronies and there were dozens of plans to invade Switzerland all the way up to the end of 1944. General Guisan, military leader of the Swiss forces actually had a secret agreement with the French Military for mutual defense right up until the French were rolled up.

Switzerland did a lot of hedging on their bets. As a neutral they were forced to trade with both sides. To cease trading with any country is actually the first step to hostility and war. I doubt the Swiss would have asked the Allies permission to trade with Germany. If there was such an understanding it was when it was obvious the Allies were going to win, and the Swiss were afraid of a full accounting for Swiss behavior earlier in the war.

With respect to the Swiss government, what makes it interesting is the forces that were swirling around them. Countries that had sizable Germanic populations ran the risk of falling under the spell of the Nazi version of the Pan Germanic, ideology which Hitler used as an excuse to annex places like the Sudaten region, invade Austria etc. Of course a certain percentage of those Pan German areas were willing participants in the Nazi circus. Although Austria claims it was the first victim of Nazi aggression, there were many Austrian officers in the SS elite forces.

Even if the Swiss government was firm about Swiss autonomy, which it was, there is still the larger issue of the ideology of fascism and antisemitism. We can not assume that the desire for autonomy also corresponds to a stance that is anti fascist or anti Nazi. For the best example look to France. Marshall Petain was a French patriot, but like many French elite did not see fascism as being incompatible with the French nation, and became a willing collaborator in the end with the Nazi agenda including deporting French Jews.

ancora
04-05-2012, 10:11 AM
80% of Jews in Italy, Germany's war-time partner, survived the war. 20% of the Jews in France, Germany's (?) enemy, survived the war.

1-M-42
04-05-2012, 10:19 AM
Switzerland also opened it's arms to thousands of Jewish refugees, many women and children crossed the "closed" borders into Switzerland. I've never read anything about the allied flyers being held in Swiss concentration camps, just the opposite. One reading was about an allied camp which allowed the American and Brit flyers to leave freely about town and it was directly across from the German Embassy building. All I've read was the Swiss were very forgiving about the unintentional bombings in their territory. The Swiss Air Force also shot down several German planes with their own, German supplied, ME-109s. What source are you using, I'd like to read that as well. I'm relying on several books by Stephen Halbrook and Willi Gautschi.

bigcasino
04-05-2012, 1:58 PM
I dont remember where I read it but I did hear that the US and allies traded with Germany thru Switzerland. Both the Germans and Americans knew it but they couldnt do it directly and both need materials for the war. It was a case of we need this more than you need what we r going to give you so it will help us more.

Warrior King
04-05-2012, 2:35 PM
Switzerland also opened it's arms to thousands of Jewish refugees, many women and children crossed the "closed" borders into Switzerland. I've never read anything about the allied flyers being held in Swiss concentration camps, just the opposite. One reading was about an allied camp which allowed the American and Brit flyers to leave freely about town and it was directly across from the German Embassy building. All I've read was the Swiss were very forgiving about the unintentional bombings in their territory. The Swiss Air Force also shot down several German planes with their own, German supplied, ME-109s. What source are you using, I'd like to read that as well. I'm relying on several books by Stephen Halbrook and Willi Gautschi.

Got the info direct from the veterans association of the Americans who were interned by the Swiss.

I did not write that all Swiss were fascist or that all Allied airmen were mistreated. Also mistreatment is relative, being cold, terrorized by guard dogs,sometimes hungry and getting beaten from time to time is nothing compared to what allied pow's experienced with Japan (all the time), or even Germany at the end of the war.

Warrior King
04-05-2012, 3:02 PM
I don't remember where I read it but I did hear that the US and allies traded with Germany thru Switzerland. Both the Germans and Americans knew it but they couldn't do it directly and both need materials for the war. It was a case of we need this more than you need what we r going to give you so it will help us more.

There were also international conferences held in Switzerland that were attended by both sides. Switzerland was also a convenient place to conduct espionage by both sides. The head of Germany's stunted nuclear program I think it was Heisenberg attended conferences in Switzerland during the war. At one point the OSS was ordered to assassinate Heisenberg during one of his trips. Instead an OSS agent met Heisenberg and determined that there was no credible German nuclear program so he did not kill Heisenberg.

There was also an international economic system based on GNP and credits and exchanges which remained intact during the war. The system changed after the war with Bretton Woods. Under the old system economic officers were appointed to visit the various industrial countries to determine their actual GNP and arrange credits and balances to their currency according to the international standard. The economic officers or agents had diplomatic immunity and were free to travel anywhere at will.

So the American nationals who were appointed agents of the economic commission were actually in Nazi Germany moving around freely while American bombers were overhead bombing Germany.

Also under the old system foreign corporations owned by belligerent countries would be put into trusts for the duration of the war. So in theory some American corporations were making the planes and bombs to hit the factories they owned in Germany such as Ford Motor Company. In practice I understand some industry that was American owned was not hit as hard.

One of the biggest fascists in the U.S. was senator Bush the father of the first president Bush. He was very pro German and helped a number of German companies in trust circumvent American laws and continue to trade with Germany and supply them with crucial materials through South American cut outs or subsidiaries. Bush actually helped the Germans get American produced ball bearings for a number of years, when there was a shortage in the U.S. Truman was going to open an investigation into Bush's activities in the Senate but it was called off for political reasons. So much for the war effort...

bigcasino
04-05-2012, 3:26 PM
I know a lot of Germany-American family also hedge there bets by sending one son to Germany before the US was involved to start bussiness and get in good with the Nazi and another would go to the US and work a bussiness there so that no matter who won the war they would come out on top.

Warrior King
04-05-2012, 5:54 PM
I know a lot of Germany-American family also hedge there bets by sending one son to Germany before the US was involved to start bussiness and get in good with the Nazi and another would go to the US and work a bussiness there so that no matter who won the war they would come out on top.

Interesting.

Allan Dulles, before he was a spy in Geneva was a partner along with his brother at the law firm of Sullivan & Cromwell. Sullivan & Cromwell at that time was one of the most powerful law firms in the world and could make or break some nation states. Dulles was one of the big players in moving American capital into Europe after the first world war, and mainly into Germany because industrial concerns could be had for pennies on the dollar, and the Americans had all the gold from selling munitions to Europe during most of the first wold war.

I found it hard to believe but according to one source after the first world war almost a majority of German industry was foreign owned and mainly American controlled. So when historians talk about industrialists bringing Hitler to power, they were not just German ones.

The guy who discovered Hitler, and introduced him to the big money elites in Germany and abroad who financed his rise was a German who went to Harvard and ran the family office in New York named Putzi Hanfstaengl. Putzi was the first to see that Hitler was the "it guy" for Germany, and Putzi had the connections to make things happen. Putzi actually based the idea of the Nazi party anthem that was used at rallies on the Harvard fight song, and got the idea for mass rallies based on Harvard football.

bigcasino
04-05-2012, 10:46 PM
wow so Harvard football has Nazi ties good thing I am a Notre Dame fan..LOL GO ND!!!

RobGR
04-05-2012, 11:07 PM
Public school?

As much as you relish ridiculing individuals with such a pathetic remark, I find that the most important aspect of any child's breadth of knowledge ultimately lies in the guidance and attention his/her parents invest in them. Ask my wife, she's a public school teacher and she can easily distinguish students who have parents that care and parents who could care less. This is based on many factors, but her training, a Masters in Education from UCSD, the type of person you want teaching our youth, can make that assessment within a few hours or even minutes of interaction. Blame public schools all you want, but fundamentally a child's future is wholly rooted in their parents. *End rant*

Other than that, a very informative thread.

glennsche
04-06-2012, 10:43 AM
Intriguing dint know that my helmet was a Nazi.


So now was this something done after by some guy who got it or was this something they used in Switzerland.

Oh it is painted on I believe.


its not.

that helmet is from the 70s. whoever put that on there did so decades after the SA was disbanded. someone was playing "dressup". i'd scratch that off. its not authentic to the piece. someone bubba-nazi-fied your swiss helmet.

here are my swiss helmets/headgear

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125020&d=1322930062