PDA

View Full Version : How to defend guns in the wake of the V. Tech massacre?


ZapThyCat
04-16-2007, 4:27 PM
Okay, so today I'm listening to the radio as to what happened, no one else in my cubicle area is listening, so they get their information from me.

I work in a fairly liberal organization, a popular California HMO whom I won't name... however I will say that it starts with a "K" and rhymes with "miser".

In any case, I get to report to everyone what's happening. And this is how I did it:

"It appears that 20-30 people were killed at a school massacre in Virginia"
"Apparently a few years ago, they eliminated all rights for people to carry on school grounds, so no one was able to defend themselves".
"The loudspeakers reportedly told everyone to go to their dorms and stay there, so the gunman knew exactly where to find everyone and execute them by going room to room".
"The cops waited several hours before reacting, wow you really can't depend on them until after-the-fact".
"Wow, this is why people should have guns to defend themselves... stuff like this would never happen".

I didn't get much response from some people, except for a couple comments. Apparently I succeeded in turning the blame from the guns that the liberals so hate, to the university which wouldn't allow firearms because they are "dangerous". For the most part they agreed with me. No one said anything to the contrary...

I'm hoping I helped some people. I know most anti-gunners will try to spin this as a reason we shouldn't have guns, instead of the reason that everybody should have guns....

gose
04-16-2007, 4:40 PM
This is a very good read and has some interesting facts.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=161637

Abstract:
Few events obtain the same instant worldwide news coverage as multiple victim public shootings. These crimes allow us to study the alternative methods used to kill a large number of people (e.g., shootings versus bombings), marginal deterrence and the severity of the crime, substitutability of penalties, private versus public methods of deterrence and incapacitation, and whether attacks produce copycats. Yet, economists have not studied this phenomenon. Our results are surprising and dramatic. While arrest or conviction rates and the death penalty reduce normal murder rates, our results find that the only policy factor to influence multiple victim public shootings is the passage of concealed handgun laws. We explain why public shootings are more sensitive than other violent crimes to concealed handguns, why the laws reduce both the number of shootings as well as their severity, and why other penalties like executions have differential deterrent effects depending upon the type of murder.

rkt88edmo
04-16-2007, 4:41 PM
www.gunfacts.info

hdcd
04-16-2007, 4:48 PM
Check out Larry Elder on 790AM in the LA Area. He has John Lott the author of More Guns, Less Crime.. HE IS ON NOW!

tedbeemer
04-16-2007, 5:02 PM
This new tragedy really sickens me and my prayers go out to the families of the victims. That being said, you can be darn sure there will be a massive backlash by gun-hating politicians and organizations. They will use this horrible massacre to thier advantage to take away as much 2nd Amendment rights as they can.

I cannot recommend enough that you all get involved in the closest NRA Members' Council you can as soon as possible. We will need all the concerned Second Amendment activists we can get to fight back this oncoming tide of anti-gun hysteria.
(go to http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/ for a Council nearest you)
Out of the estimated 44 million gun owners in America, only 4 million of them are NRA members, yet the NRA is America's premire and most powerful gun rights organization. Imagine how much more we could get done if we had even 25% of American gun owners as members?????

The San Francisco Members' Council will be meeting at the Tennessee Grille on Taraval St this Tuesday at 7PM. www.ggnra.org Please come and be part of the answer and not a frustrated by-stander.

Remember, there are 3 types of gun owners in this world:
Those that MAKE things happen, those that WATCH what happens, and those that WONDER what happened.

Join the NRA and make things happen.

whit
04-16-2007, 5:28 PM
I have been sorta thinking the same things.

But I think that when most people first hear about it, it is such a shocking and horrible situation that their first reaction is not so much about the mechanics of the situation, or gun control, etc., but just kinda taking it all in and dealing with it.

I was talking with a fairly liberal person about it and I said something like:

"It makes you realize that the Police are not really crime-stoppers, but more crime-deterrents."

"For two hundred years we have pretty much relied on police deterrence and people's good natures and self-control to keep things like this from happening, and it just seems like people are less and less good-natured nowadays. Stuff like this happens more and more and deterrence just isn't working the way it used to, and it probably never will again."

"As an adult member of society you are expected to take care of yourself and your family, you are expected to provide food, shelter, education for the kids, etc. etc. How is it rational to think that you are expected to provide everything that your family needs, except protection from violence? That is certainly not the way things were when this country was started."

"Logically, what really makes sense is that responsible adults are responsible for taking care of all aspects of their lives, safety included."

I just left it there. If someone has an anti-gun leaning and you hit them up immediately with pro-gun stuff, then I am afraid it might cause an instant rejection of the whole idea, but if you can actually plant a little something in there for them to think about later, then maybe it might make a difference.

Of course some folks are going to latch onto this in a big way to push more anti-gun sentiment and there is nothing at all you can do about that, so just ignore them.


Whit

Bishop
04-16-2007, 5:36 PM
Check out Larry Elder on 790AM in the LA Area. He has John Lott the author of More Guns, Less Crime.. HE IS ON NOW!

+1000

Listening to larry now, http://www.kabc.com

6172crew
04-16-2007, 5:37 PM
Some of the talking heads on FNC were for a CCW law that would work on school grounds.

I know we are along way off from that but I cant see any other way that people could have been saved. I would have put that dog down if I had been packing heat and Im sure most of would have done the same thing.

Out of all the junk I heard today that was the only thing I could agree on, best wishes to the families of the victims.

Dr. Peter Venkman
04-16-2007, 6:11 PM
There is no doubt that the douchebags running for positions are going to use this to pout off their gun control legislation bull****. This whole incident could have been stopped right when it started if some students had CCWs.

Tzvia
04-16-2007, 6:24 PM
You can never stop a criminal by disarming the victims, but that's the way the liberals and lib politicians think.

That they can just sit like vultures over the victims for their own political gain a la Feinstein (remember Frisco anybody?) makes me sick.

My heart goes out to the victims and their loved ones. There are a lot of grieving families tonight...

Ubergeek
04-16-2007, 6:43 PM
Not much chatter here at work about this story.

Off-tangent follows:

I got into HR hot water a few months back when I got into a row with a Chinese national over 2nd Amendment rights. She called the United States 'screwed-up' for letting private citizens own guns.

I stood my ground and suggested that the alternative would turn us into 'communist slaves'.

Guess I ought to drop this @#$@! a line and let her know that the shooter is one of 'hers'.

paradox
04-16-2007, 6:45 PM
This whole incident could have been stopped right when it started if some students had CCWs.

Or if a dorm rat had a hundred dollar milsurp or big5 special shotgun.

But guns are banned in the dorms just like CCW holders can't pack on campus....

bonjing
04-16-2007, 6:46 PM
WOW!!!!
i am listening to my co-workers radio (KSFO I think) and a caller just mentioned the idea of CCW, how VT banned firearms on campus and stated that if a few of the victims or bystanders had been armed that there would have been less casualties. He even did a plug for packing.org.

Dr. Peter Venkman
04-16-2007, 6:57 PM
Or if a dorm rat had a hundred dollar milsurp or big5 special shotgun.

But guns are banned in the dorms just like CCW holders can't pack on campus....

Yup. Just a sad and tragic situation thanks to the morons in power.

slick_711
04-16-2007, 7:27 PM
Or if a dorm rat had a hundred dollar milsurp or big5 special shotgun.

But guns are banned in the dorms just like CCW holders can't pack on campus....

That's not true, it's looked upon with distaste but it is not illegal to carry on a campus unless you have no reason to be there. Theoretically a student with a CCW is fine to carry if on campus for school reasons, although if caught he'd get hassled the authorities would have no leg to stand on legally.

I wish I had my CCW, I'd carry 18/7, school, work or otherwise. Were CA a reasonable and responsible state like the rest of the country that would in fact be the case. But no, an ex-military MP - CA HSC instructor - NRA certified instructor - range employee is apparently not a safe enough individual to be allowed to carry a gun. But the 80 year old docs and lawyers that came in for their renewals this morning and couldn't handle their own firearms with target loads, they're squared away.

/endrant sorry

I actually just got home and haven't heard much about VT, I'll have to look into it. I only heard about it at all because someone mentioned it was on the radio and my boss was interviewed. In any case, it's a terrible tragedy and my prayers are with those students. Unfortunate for the firearms debate as well, but I'd hate for any of us to be more concerned with that than with the loss of good young American men and women.



VA, guys. VT is Vermont.
I was abbreviating Virginia Tech, sorry...

M. Sage
04-16-2007, 7:31 PM
VA, guys. VT is Vermont.


I wish I had my CCW, I'd carry 18/7, school, work or otherwise. Were CA a reasonable and responsible state like the rest of the country that would in fact be the case. But no, an ex-military MP - CA HSC instructor - NRA certified instructor - range employee is apparently not a safe enough individual to be allowed to carry a gun. But the 80 year old docs and lawyers that came in for their renewals this morning and couldn't handle their own firearms with target loads, they're squared away.

/endrant sorry

This is California. They're rich. Apparently you're not (don't feel bad, I'm not even close).

I can't name the last time I saw a newer Mercedes/BMW/Porsche pulled over by CHP at the side of the road.

maxicon
04-16-2007, 7:34 PM
That's not true, it's looked upon with distaste but it is not illegal to carry on a campus unless you have no reason to be there. Theoretically a student with a CCW is fine to carry if on campus for school reasons, although if caught he'd get hassled the authorities would have no leg to stand on legally.

The legalities depend on the state.

Aside from that, the issue is that many schools ban firearms on campus (like my daughter's college). While it may be technically legal to possess one (depending on the circumstances), if the school finds out, they'll suspend or expel you.

Many students aren't willing to take that risk, given how difficult it can be to get into the school you want.

paradox
04-16-2007, 7:45 PM
That's not true, it's looked upon with distaste but it is not illegal to carry on a campus unless you have no reason to be there.

I was talking specifically about Virginia Tech.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/wb/xp-21770
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

mblat
04-16-2007, 7:47 PM
VA, guys. VT is Vermont.



This is California. They're rich. Apparently you're not (don't feel bad, I'm not even close).

I can't name the last time I saw a newer Mercedes/BMW/Porsche pulled over by CHP at the side of the road.

That is probably because you live in area of town that doesn't have a lor of BWMs.. I see it all the time....

leelaw
04-16-2007, 7:50 PM
How to defend the firearms?

Easy - place the blame where it belongs:

-On the psycho who went on a murderous rampage.
-On the school that so smugly touted how it disarmed the students.
-On the authorities (in general) who tell people to act as a good witness, rather than an effective deterrent or self reliant.

To a lesser degree: the students who stood by while the murderer executed people one by one, going down the line, while they waited their turn.

aklon
04-16-2007, 7:55 PM
The media seems to be focussing more on why no one did anything for almost two and half hours, rather than calling for gun control. This should be pointed out at every opportunity.

That said, what is NOT helpful is what I saw just now on CNN: some gun shop owner showing the reporter a Beretta 9, just as pleased as punch to be on TV, talking about how easy it is to empty a full magazine "as fast as you can pull a trigger."

dawson8r
04-16-2007, 8:00 PM
My idea to deter these types of killings and to defend innocent civilians from such incidents is to expand the capabilities of the USA Freedom Corps created by President Bush in the wake of 9/11. I have in mind a program that is kind of like a CCW on steriods:

Provide training above and beyond that required for a CCW to any citizen able to possess firearms. Nominal course fee to cover materials, the rest subsidized by the Dept. of Homeland Security. Maybe a 6-8 consecutive Saturday course that covers not only CCW instruction and training but also such things as CPR, basic self-defense, and handgun combat with range time. The idea is to expand the USAFC of volunteer first responders with CCW rights. While not having the authority and powers of a police officer or a reserve peace officer, these citizens could and would be everywhere in our society. School teachers, nurses, grocery clerks, software engineers, restaurant managers, waitresses, car salesmen, retail clerks, people that work in office buildings, etc. Not only would these members be capable of stopping such an attack, they would be trained to provide immediate triage to the victims as well.

There is no way to stop a nut job from making the decision to go ballistic. However, any armed and trained citizen confronted with this type of situation would be able to use some ballistics of their own to stop them.

Rob454
04-16-2007, 8:10 PM
I think you will get some anti gun spin on this. its impossible not to. The only thing I can say is to give them examples of other murders and atrocities

you cant stop someone who wants to do evel deeds no matter what laws you enact. If someone wants to go and kill it will happen. no if ands or but's

Someone will inevitably say well if they didnt have access to guns this wont happen.
I would say well if people didnt have access to illegal drugs we wouldnt have detox clinics, people ODing every night and sturng out junkies robbing our property, which BTW is the reason i need a gun to defend myself.

The only reason I cant see guns disappearing from our society is
1.The constitution and the bill of rights
2. guns are ingrained in our way of life
3. you will have a civil war is my belief
4. some people will hide their guns
4. Cirminals will ALWAYS have access to guns. I know some argue against that.
a. because they dont really care about the laws or they woudlnt be criminals
b. if someone is willing to pay the price there will aALWAYS be a supply. Case in point Drugs have been here for 100 years or so. leal at first illegal now and we still cant stop them from coming in. The GOVERMENT gave up on fighting the drug trade. What does that tell you

patman
04-16-2007, 8:22 PM
Regarding armed students... I vaguely remember reading somewhere, maybe the NRA rifleman "the armed citizen" or something like that about another college in the midwest where a student went back to his vehicle to get his gun and stop just such a rampage from happening there. Anyone else remember such an article?


edited:
Great Google search...Appalachian School Of Law (ASL) in Grundy, Virginia. (http://www.gunowners.org/sk0302.htm).

JALLEN
04-16-2007, 8:35 PM
Regarding armed students... I vaguely remember reading somewhere, maybe the NRA rifleman "the armed citizen" or something like that about another college in the midwest where a student went back to his vehicle to get his gun and stop just such a rampage from happening there. Anyone else remember such an article?

I was a student at UT Austin in the mid-60's. When Charles Whitman started his sniper attack from on top of the Tower, a great many got out the deer rifles commonly carried in pick up trucks in those parts in those days, and started trying to get a shot. The top of the Tower was a near perfect sniper position. If he had had an accomplice to guard the stairs, he'd still be up there! Ultimately, an off duty Austin police officer was able to sneak up to the top and shoot Whitman, in part I think because Whitman was distracted by the shots being fired up at him. But for the Tower being such a perfect sniper perch, Whitman would have been dead within ten minutes with all the rifles that were at hand within a few minutes.

It is just an observation on my part but it takes far too long for police to get organized, get to the scene, fashion a plan and respond. That off-duty cop took matters into his own hands in Austin, saw what needed to be done and did it. When James Huberty shot up the McDonalds in San Ysidro twenty some odd years ago, it took SWAT a long time to get on scene. Let us not forget the appalling story of Susan Gratia Hupp who watched her parents murdered in the Luby's in Killeen while her pistol sat in the glove compartment in her car. Nothing can replace, or duplicate, an armed and trained responsible citizen who happens to be on the scene or nearby. Today's shootings took place over a more than two hour period. All it would take is for a properly armed student or university employee to have been in a position to end it.

Yankee Clipper
04-16-2007, 8:48 PM
I was a student at UT Austin in the mid-60's. When Charles Whitman started his sniper attack from on top of the Tower, a great many got out the deer rifles commonly carried in pick up trucks in those parts in those days, and started trying to get a shot. The top of the Tower was a near perfect sniper position. If he had had an accomplice to guard the stairs, he'd still be up there! Ultimately, an off duty Austin police officer was able to sneak up to the top and shoot Whitman, in part I think because Whitman was distracted by the shots being fired up at him. But for the Tower being such a perfect sniper perch, Whitman would have been dead within ten minutes with all the rifles that were at hand within a few minutes.

It is just an observation on my part but it takes far too long for police to get organized, get to the scene, fashion a plan and respond. That off-duty cop took matters into his own hands in Austin, saw what needed to be done and did it. When James Huberty shot up the McDonalds in San Ysidro twenty some odd years ago, it took SWAT a long time to get on scene. Let us not forget the appalling story of Susan Gratia Hupp who watched her parents murdered in the Luby's in Killeen while her pistol sat in the glove compartment in her car. Nothing can replace, or duplicate, an armed and trained responsible citizen who happens to be on the scene or nearby. Today's shootings took place over a more than two hour period. All it would take is for a properly armed student or university employee to have been in a position to end it.
ABC had file films of, supposedly her, practicing at shooting range this evening. They didn't, however, point out the tragedy and heartbreak she suffered.

Dont Tread on Me
04-16-2007, 8:53 PM
Simple, point them to this BBC article on a nut job killing people with a gun in England 10 years after all handguns were banned.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/6388769.stm

1911su16b870
04-16-2007, 9:24 PM
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658 1/31/2006 --

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

"Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

I wonder how safe they feel now?

Our hearts and prayers go out to those families who have been striken.

I hope every opponent of RKBA who spouts off after this terrible tragedy is given the above crucial info that would have helped those law abiding students/faculty from maybe stopping that nutjob.

The Professional
04-16-2007, 10:09 PM
Jarrod, you got PM!

medic707
04-16-2007, 10:15 PM
I dont know about everyone else but after my initial shock and thoughts and prayers going out to all those affected by this tragity, my next thoughts were

1 i hope this crime wasnt committed with a AW
2 how all i was going to hear about was more gun control

But to my surprise most of the people i talked to through out the course of the day seemed either pro gun or indifferent to the gun control issue and felt blame should be placed on the person who pulled the trigger.

Then on my way home from work i found a talk radio show (not sure which but they were out of SF) I kept waiting to hear the anti's propaganda start up. But to my surprise again I didnt, I heard one caller advocate nation wide shall issue CCW and the caller sounded very well versed and presented himself very well and explained what WE all know... criminals dont obey laws, its better if criminals dont know whos armed, etc... And i was shocked when the self admitted Anti-gun DJ said those really are some good points.

The DJ then opened the lines to the ? "gun control more or less" then i was waiting for them to screen the callers and get the most inbreed hick (or idiot in general) that would make himself and all other gun owners look like nuts. But most of the callers were pro gun and presented good points. He even had a LEO call and basically say gun control doesnt work.

How about everyone else did you notice more Pro or Anti's today???

kilword
04-16-2007, 10:18 PM
Buy as many as possible and as quick as you can. :P

ldivinag
04-17-2007, 12:29 AM
simple.

ask them how many police stations were hit by wackos?

well besides that one in TERMINATOR 1.

Grakken
04-17-2007, 9:00 AM
For those of you who think pelosi, fineswine and boxlicker arent going to spin this into antgun propaganda, think again. Give them a week tops and it will be in the news how their new Fed AW ban will make us safer. :rolleyes:
Damn, I hope I can get my M1a before they ban it.

SemiAutoSam
04-17-2007, 9:06 AM
That wasn't a Police Station, That was a Drive Through.


ILL BE BACK

simple.

ask them how many police stations were hit by wackos?

well besides that one in TERMINATOR 1.

akspetsnaz
04-17-2007, 2:49 PM
I got into HR hot water a few months back when I got into a row with a Chinese national over 2nd Amendment rights. She called the United States 'screwed-up' for letting private citizens own guns.

I stood my ground and suggested that the alternative would turn us into 'communist slaves'.

Guess I ought to drop this @#$@! a line and let her know that the shooter is one of 'hers'.

Pre-assumed race related statement always amuse me.

tpliquid1
04-17-2007, 3:16 PM
i was just thinking, how do you tell a criminal apart from the good guy with a gun when something like this happens?

ldivinag
04-17-2007, 3:49 PM
i was just thinking, how do you tell a criminal apart from the good guy with a gun when something like this happens?

criminal is the one that keeps shooting at you when you tell them to STOP...

SemiAutoSam
04-17-2007, 6:37 PM
I ran across this olegvolk.net website that happens to have a bunch of graphics that deal with the being able to defend yourself theme.

http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/technology/arms

http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/d/19015-2/army9683.jpg

http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/d/4814-2/NOLA_L9L5826.jpg

http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/d/18429-2/necessity2-0332.jpg

http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/d/17975-2/nothome7252.jpg

dawson8r
04-17-2007, 10:20 PM
One of my favorite sites (along with CalGuns) is this:

http://www.a-human-right.com

I direct a lot of on-the-fence-about-guns people to that site.