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Wulf
04-15-2007, 4:37 PM
The thread about the guy mistakenly arrested by Sac Pd and the other thread about the guy that shot the people breaking into his car made me think of a ballot proposition that might be worth pursuing.

We'd need a clever lawyer to write it, but the gist of it would be to make "inadequate law enforcement effectiveness" a mitigating factor in any kind of a "good guy confronts bad guy" scenario. Ideally the law would severely limit a DA's ability to press charges in the first place and if they do press charges it would allow the defense to throughly explore the inadequacies and failures of the police and the DA to control the crime problem that precipitated the confrontation as part of the defense. Might also be nice if it included some legal cost reimbursement.

In areas with out and out gang and theft problems the law would amount to a Get Out Of Jail Free as long as the scenario has the general scent of legitimate self-defense. It might even extend to the OLL situation by making the DOJ's inability/unwillingness to issue forthright and clear guidance on what's actually in the law and then distribute that information, a free pass on victim less technical AW configuration issues.

Muzz
04-15-2007, 5:04 PM
You got my vote. Need a few million more, though.

bwiese
04-15-2007, 5:07 PM
Fine, got $90 million dollars to even get it a fighting chance?

That's what getting an item on a ballot costs (incl. getting it into somewhat of a winnable position).

anotherone
04-15-2007, 8:06 PM
Fine, got $90 million dollars to even get it a fighting chance?

That's what getting an item on a ballot costs (incl. getting it into somewhat of a winnable position).

$90 million only gets it on the ballot. For controversial initiatives such as anything dealing with the 2nd Amendment in California you'll be easily looking at perhaps $200+ million to get it on the ballot and passed. The Brady Bunch and others are making their last stand in our state so they'll spend almost every dollar they have fighting it. Better to spend our money on winnable battles like Parker vs. DC and Hunt vs. Brown.

mike100
04-15-2007, 8:20 PM
Imagine if a billionaire philanthropist who supported the 2A and paid for that.. he could bankrupt the BB.

CalNRA
04-15-2007, 8:28 PM
Imagine if a billionaire philanthropist who supported the 2A and paid for that.. he could bankrupt the BB.

just convince George Soros to get in on the arms trade. He is a money-obsessed investor who advocates peace yet reaps profit from Halliburton, so as long as there is money be made get him in on it.

midnitereaper
04-15-2007, 8:54 PM
why do you need over 90 million dollars to get a ballot proposition? What does parker vs. DC have to do with California? If Brady is making its last stand in CA then maybe we should concentrate all efforts in CA.

hoffmang
04-15-2007, 9:11 PM
Its not $90M, its more like $20M to get it on the ballot. It costs money to get enough signatures. then it will cost another $30M to $50M depending on how strong the opposition is to run enough TV, billboard, and print to have a snowballs chance in hell of passing.

Parker v. DC will call into question quite a few 9th Federal Circuit Court rulings that ignored the issues by claiming that the second amendment was null and void. Should SCOTUS rule that Parker is correct (and I expect they will) then things will be changing in the judiciary in California over time.

-Gene

-Gene

M. Sage
04-15-2007, 9:13 PM
-Gene

-Gene

Awesome! He just cloned himself!

Things are looking up. :D

midnitereaper
04-15-2007, 9:23 PM
Its not $90M, its more like $20M to get it on the ballot. It costs money to get enough signatures. then it will cost another $30M to $50M depending on how strong the opposition is to run enough TV, billboard, and print to have a snowballs chance in hell of passing.

Parker v. DC will call into question quite a few 9th Federal Circuit Court rulings that ignored the issues by claiming that the second amendment was null and void. Should SCOTUS rule that Parker is correct (and I expect they will) then things will be changing in the judiciary in California over time.

-Gene

-Gene

It costs 20 mil to walk door to door and get signatures? I know gas is expensive and all but 20 mil? 30 to 50 mil on advertising? Through who and we are just talking about CA right? Not the entire nation? Boy 30 to 50 mil! And here I am *****ed over 160k annual advertising on cable! Based on your guys information and advice, the only people in this country that can afford to build ballots is corporations. Are you sure your stats are correct?

bwiese
04-15-2007, 9:29 PM
It costs 20 mil to walk door to door and get signatures? I know gas is expensive and all but 20 mil? 30 to 50 mil on advertising? Through who and we are just talking about CA right? Not the entire nation? Boy 30 to 50 mil! And here I am *****ed over 160k annual advertising on cable! Based on your guys information and advice, the only people in this country that can afford to build ballots is corporations. Are you sure your stats are correct?


Yes, he's right.

Why do you think the recent RKBA stuff failed to get enough signatures?

Organized efforts to get a ballot measure setup use teams of professional signature gatherers. These people work for money and do it all day long, whether or not little Johnny needs a ride to soccer or whether or not they even care about the issue.

Yes, most ballot propositions in CA from now on will be corporate-driven or union-driven or driven by a major political party (Arnie's 4 failed Propositions of recent memory).

hoffmang
04-15-2007, 9:51 PM
midnite,

I've actually run a national ad campaign on radio, tv, outdoor, and print.

You?

There are 33M people in California. You need 10% of the last voter turnout. That means you need at least 2 million signatures. Most professional signature gathering services cost $5 per signature. I assume you can perform the math.

-Gene

midnitereaper
04-15-2007, 10:06 PM
midnite,

I've actually run a national ad campaign on radio, tv, outdoor, and print.

You?

There are 33M people in California. You need 10% of the last voter turnout. That means you need at least 2 million signatures. Most professional signature gathering services cost $5 per signature. I assume you can perform the math.

-Gene


I take care of advertising for my company. Now if we are done comparing job qualifications lets get back to the subject at hand!

Now wouldn't the budget for a national campaing be oh lets say 70% more expensive than one single state. Also who said this is a campaign? How bout we keep it at the level WE members can handle and maybe a little OLD SCHOOL and do this ourselves? hmm just a suggestion since I don't think very many members on this board have a couple mil to dish out BUT are HIGHLY MOTIVATED in getting something done!

hoffmang
04-15-2007, 10:19 PM
There is no such thing as a national ballot measure.

As to California, you still need 2 million signatures to get on the ballot. I can assure you that there are not 2 million members of Calguns....

Nationally, You either need a 2/3 of the States or 2/3 of Congress to propose an amendment to the constitution. If you think California is expensive...

-Gene

midnitereaper
04-15-2007, 10:26 PM
There is no such thing as a national ballot measure.

As to California, you still need 2 million signatures to get on the ballot. I can assure you that there are not 2 million members of Calguns....

Nationally, You either need a 2/3 of the States or 2/3 of Congress to propose an amendment to the constitution. If you think California is expensive...

-Gene

If the ballot is just for our state then why would we need 2 million calgun members nation wide? And why do we need 2 million calgun members to get a ballot supported? Yes I do think CA is expensive but what does that have to do with supporting a ballot?

Matt C
04-15-2007, 10:28 PM
The AFT got a prop on the ballot for 15 mil. Not sure how much then plan to spend to make it pass though.

hoffmang
04-15-2007, 10:33 PM
Please take a civics class. I'll try to boil this down.

There is no such thing as a national ballot proposition. The closest you can get is a constitutional convention which has to be called by 2/3 of the State legislators. It would be prohibitively expensive to lobby them to get them to do something like that. It hasn't happened since 1787.

33 million Californians with about 60% voter turn out and 10% of those is just short of 2 million voters. The California Constitution requires that 10% of the voters in the last election have to sign the petition to get a ballot measure on the ballot. That is $10M spent - bare minimum - to get a proposition on the ballot in California.

You had advocated just getting those of us who read the board to go out and get signatures. If there are 1000 people who read calguns, then each and every one of them would have to get 2000 signatures.

Its not going to happen.

Then, even if we got it on the ballot, how do you know it will pass? How much effort would be wasted for nothing.

Instead, listen to Mike Haas and send one click emails when legislation comes up. Send letters, faxes, and call and speak to legislative staffs when its time.

Save your effort and your money to back people who need help when something unjust happens in the court system.

Don't try to fight battles you can't win. Tilting at windmills is not a Sun Tzu strategy.

-Gene

midnitereaper
04-15-2007, 11:29 PM
10 mil spent on what? We don't need the stream jet to fly us around nor do we need to drive hum-vees door to door. I think staples charges 10 to 25 cents a copy.

We can start with calgun members then move on to calgun member families and then work some recruiting to gain more members then all members new and old can join up on getting the signatures.

wow so basically you boil this all down to if we loose it's all just a big waist. Nice strategy you got there. Guess we should all just be thankful for what we have now and enjoy it while it lasts.

So what is the difference between Mike Haas's ideas versus the ideas of the members on this board? Is Mike Haas now the supreme leader of gun rights and we must all do as he says when he says and for how much he says? I was under the impression this was more of a GROUP effort and WE are all here to contribute in the OVERALL GOAL TO RECLAIM OUR RIGHTS!

Please take a civics class. I'll try to boil this down.

There is no such thing as a national ballot proposition. The closest you can get is a constitutional convention which has to be called by 2/3 of the State legislators. It would be prohibitively expensive to lobby them to get them to do something like that. It hasn't happened since 1787.

33 million Californians with about 60% voter turn out and 10% of those is just short of 2 million voters. The California Constitution requires that 10% of the voters in the last election have to sign the petition to get a ballot measure on the ballot. That is $10M spent - bare minimum - to get a proposition on the ballot in California.

You had advocated just getting those of us who read the board to go out and get signatures. If there are 1000 people who read calguns, then each and every one of them would have to get 2000 signatures.

Its not going to happen.

Then, even if we got it on the ballot, how do you know it will pass? How much effort would be wasted for nothing.

Instead, listen to Mike Haas and send one click emails when legislation comes up. Send letters, faxes, and call and speak to legislative staffs when its time.

Save your effort and your money to back people who need help when something unjust happens in the court system.

Don't try to fight battles you can't win. Tilting at windmills is not a Sun Tzu strategy.

-Gene

anotherone
04-15-2007, 11:37 PM
There is no such thing as a national ballot measure.

As to California, you still need 2 million signatures to get on the ballot. I can assure you that there are not 2 million members of Calguns....

Nationally, You either need a 2/3 of the States or 2/3 of Congress to propose an amendment to the constitution. If you think California is expensive...

-Gene

I think a lot of folks are also unaware of the time factor. If all it took were 2 million signatures then measures like RKBA would eventually get on the ballot given enough effort and time. Collecting 2 million signatures is entirely possible given enough time... but time is the one thing you don't have when collecting sigs for a measure.

I believe you have less than 8 or 10 months to collect those 2 million signatures. That's basically having to collect 250,000 signatures a month!!! that's a tall order for even 1,000 people gathering signatures (250 per month)! Not to mention the level of infrastructure needed to coordinate thousands of gatherers and supply them with a petitions and central gathering points. I need not go on further.

hoffmang
04-15-2007, 11:45 PM
midnitereaper,


If we lose it's not a big waste?

Mike Haas is the online spokesman of the NRA in California. The NRA in CA does a very good job of focusing our energy and time on productive activities. That strategy lead to no new bad gun laws last year. My time is valuable and its clear to me from your comments that yours is not.

So let me review. You don't understand how the Federal government works, you don't understand how the California initiative process works. It seems clear reading between the lines that you don't understand how the legislative process works. You certainly have no inkling about the actual costs of getting thousands of people to do something.

What do you understand and why should we take your proclamations about what we should be doing seriously when you haven't even done your homework?

Do you understand that the guys you are attacking on this thread spend quite a bit of their time doing effective things to help get our rights back?

-Gene

CalNRA
04-16-2007, 12:09 AM
10 mil spent on what? We don't need the stream jet to fly us around nor do we need to drive hum-vees door to door. I think staples charges 10 to 25 cents a copy.

We can start with calgun members then move on to calgun member families and then work some recruiting to gain more members then all members new and old can join up on getting the signatures.

wow so basically you boil this all down to if we loose it's all just a big waist. Nice strategy you got there. Guess we should all just be thankful for what we have now and enjoy it while it lasts.

So what is the difference between Mike Haas's ideas versus the ideas of the members on this board? Is Mike Haas now the supreme leader of gun rights and we must all do as he says when he says and for how much he says? I was under the impression this was more of a GROUP effort and WE are all here to contribute in the OVERALL GOAL TO RECLAIM OUR RIGHTS!

are you seriously suggesting that we go an get all of our family and firends to drop everything we do and go out and gather signatures. Then what?

say we have 1000 people, all of us get 9 other non-calgunners to help for a total of 10,000 people. Now each one has to get 200 signatures.

good. so we are at it. Now we go out and get signatures. On wait, have you gone to the gun shows and see how hard it is to get somebody who just came out with a 2000 dollar O/U to join the NRA? holy freak it's hard for him to shell out that 25 bucks for membership. Now try going to supermarkets and gather signatures for a pro-gun legislation. I'll guarantee you you won't get more than 2 before you get thrown out for trespassing. forget about having permission from owners of the businesses letting pro-gun people hang out and get sigs.


still with me?



okay, say none of the 10,000 people have worked in over a week for the 200 signatures(yes the sigs to come that slow), that's 40 hours of lost pay, let's lowball it, that's about 500 dollars a person so we just spent 5,000,000 dollars in lost pay.

so after the gathering, we do by some miracle get 2 million sigs, then there are 18 million other voters to work on. Now the big bucks needs to be spent on TV, Newspaper, Radio, Internet, mailing advertising. I can assure you that a compaign to reach the entire state will not com cheap.

I'm not gonna go into how much the ads will cost. who will pay for that, the Calgunners? remember we just lost 5 million+ in pay. The NRA? most of the people who own guns won't even shell out 25-35 bucks for a membership for it, and we rely again on the same pool of gun owners.

Now that the campaign is registered on the ballot for the election. Guess what? the unions will give its members orders to vote no. the government agencies and public services will order its employees to vote no, the University will tell the students to vote no. Do you know how many people that 3 sectors alone cover?

less chest beating and more phone-calls and letters and recruit gun owners. recruit members for the NRA so we can get things done on a legislative level and judicial level..

midnitereaper
04-16-2007, 11:31 AM
midnitereaper,


If we lose it's not a big waste?

Mike Haas is the online spokesman of the NRA in California. The NRA in CA does a very good job of focusing our energy and time on productive activities. That strategy lead to no new bad gun laws last year. My time is valuable and its clear to me from your comments that yours is not.

So let me review. You don't understand how the Federal government works, you don't understand how the California initiative process works. It seems clear reading between the lines that you don't understand how the legislative process works. You certainly have no inkling about the actual costs of getting thousands of people to do something.

What do you understand and why should we take your proclamations about what we should be doing seriously when you haven't even done your homework?

Do you understand that the guys you are attacking on this thread spend quite a bit of their time doing effective things to help get our rights back?

-Gene

I understand how government works. I understood my role in supporting our government and this country. What I am trying to understand is why the media and people like you put such hefty price tags on politics. All I hear is it takes millions to get elected or it takes millions to start a bill or millions to sue the country. My education in this country has told me that every American has a voice no matter how big your checkbook is. Come 35 I will run for president without even a Mil in the bank. I do value my time but I also value getting positive gun policies in place. Every single Americans NUMBER ONE JOB should be to some way some how safe guard our freedom. If you feel your time is to valuable to give up for the cause then don't take the time to bash the OP idea and other members on this site who are willing to give up their time. If you don't want to waste your valuable time to break down the price tag you propose then don't give out such an overpriced amount. You came on here with some inflated budget and I called you on it. You explained it and I called you on it again. All the time you tried to make me look like a fool and brag about some national campaign you worked on. From what I have collected in this conversation is that you want to hire people to do the work for you but you don't seem to understand that we calgun members AREN'T FREAKIN BILLIONAIRES! So we need to come up with a plan that will work within our members time and BUDGET!

BTW what rights have the members on this board gotten back?

midnitereaper
04-16-2007, 11:45 AM
are you seriously suggesting that we go an get all of our family and firends to drop everything we do and go out and gather signatures. Then what?

say we have 1000 people, all of us get 9 other non-calgunners to help for a total of 10,000 people. Now each one has to get 200 signatures.

good. so we are at it. Now we go out and get signatures. On wait, have you gone to the gun shows and see how hard it is to get somebody who just came out with a 2000 dollar O/U to join the NRA? holy freak it's hard for him to shell out that 25 bucks for membership. Now try going to supermarkets and gather signatures for a pro-gun legislation. I'll guarantee you you won't get more than 2 before you get thrown out for trespassing. forget about having permission from owners of the businesses letting pro-gun people hang out and get sigs.


still with me?



okay, say none of the 10,000 people have worked in over a week for the 200 signatures(yes the sigs to come that slow), that's 40 hours of lost pay, let's lowball it, that's about 500 dollars a person so we just spent 5,000,000 dollars in lost pay.

so after the gathering, we do by some miracle get 2 million sigs, then there are 18 million other voters to work on. Now the big bucks needs to be spent on TV, Newspaper, Radio, Internet, mailing advertising. I can assure you that a compaign to reach the entire state will not com cheap.

I'm not gonna go into how much the ads will cost. who will pay for that, the Calgunners? remember we just lost 5 million+ in pay. The NRA? most of the people who own guns won't even shell out 25-35 bucks for a membership for it, and we rely again on the same pool of gun owners.

Now that the campaign is registered on the ballot for the election. Guess what? the unions will give its members orders to vote no. the government agencies and public services will order its employees to vote no, the University will tell the students to vote no. Do you know how many people that 3 sectors alone cover?

less chest beating and more phone-calls and letters and recruit gun owners. recruit members for the NRA so we can get things done on a legislative level and judicial level..


From what I gathered from listening to the people in line at the last show in costa mesa is people don't join because the NRA doesn't fight for CA gun rights. Not me but the people around me. If you think about it though they do have a point. Look at our situation. Fed AW ban lifts but CA makes their own. We are surrounded by 3 states that still to this day allow AW and high cap mags. Then it gets worse what 2 or 3 years ago we get hit with another ban on the 50 bmg. The people of this state still dont see the NRA fighting for our AW rights and now we just lost another rifle. Do you really think they are gonna want to join?

As for the ballot you give the same excuses as hoff and feel your time is more valuable and not worth wasting on this effort.

And no you didn't spend 5 mil in lost pay as you can't spend what you didn't have in the first place. You wouldn't use that logic on taxes and tell the IRS you missed 2 weeks of work and lost 10k so deduct 10k from the gross 70k I made for a grand total of 60k.

jnojr
04-16-2007, 1:08 PM
midnite,

There are 33M people in California. You need 10% of the last voter turnout.

IIRC you need 5% of the turnout for the last election for Governor. 8% for a Constitutional amendment, which waas the threshold the RKBA initiative needed to crack. We needed 700-someodd thousand signatures to qualify for the ballot, and the goal was, IIRC, 850,000 (because some are inevitably tossed out as invalid)

jnojr
04-16-2007, 1:13 PM
As to California, you still need 2 million signatures to get on the ballot. I can assure you that there are not 2 million members of Calguns...

Even if there were, you'd never get them all to sign.

At best, I was able to get maybe one in three gun show attendees to sign the RKBA petition. You would think that people at a gun show would be lining up for a chance to take 30 seconds to simply sign a petition. But nooo... most ignored us and kept walking. Others "didn't want to be on a list". Still more told us that there was no chance of it ever working so there was no point in signing, completely oblivious to the paradox.

My best guess is that the 100% volunteer effort achieved maybe 50,000 signatures. And that's being generous. The few gun stores that would allow the petitions ("we don't want to be involved in politics") would let them sit under the counter, covered in dust. In San Diego, we got about 500 signatures per day at the gun shows.

jnojr
04-16-2007, 1:20 PM
10 mil spent on what? We don't need the stream jet to fly us around nor do we need to drive hum-vees door to door. I think staples charges 10 to 25 cents a copy.

You must use paid signature gatherers. They aren't cheap.

We can start with calgun members then move on to calgun member families and then work some recruiting to gain more members then all members new and old can join up on getting the signatures.

They won't do it.

Maybe a dozen CalGunners participated in the RKBA initiative. The rest just ignored it. If you ask them, "Why aren't you helping?", they never heard you. The question was never asked. If you backed them into a corner, they'd mutter something about having better things to do... ask a California gun owner to actually take some action to defend 2A here, and all sorts of family and medical obligations come pouring out of the woodwork. Everybody's sick, their family is sick, their friends are sick, this is happening, that is happening... they're still living their lives every day, and posting away on CalGuns instead of caring for the rafts of elderly, disabled family members who are preventing them from gathering signatures, but somehow those poor folks are nowhere around when they want to just live their own lives.

You will never never ever get enough volunteers to even make a tiny scratch in an issue like this. And half of the volunteers you do get, that will be all you ever hear from them... they'll "sign up", but always be "too busy" when any effort is asked of them.

midnitereaper
04-16-2007, 1:25 PM
Even if there were, you'd never get them all to sign.

At best, I was able to get maybe one in three gun show attendees to sign the RKBA petition. You would think that people at a gun show would be lining up for a chance to take 30 seconds to simply sign a petition. But nooo... most ignored us and kept walking. Others "didn't want to be on a list". Still more told us that there was no chance of it ever working so there was no point in signing, completely oblivious to the paradox.

My best guess is that the 100% volunteer effort achieved maybe 50,000 signatures. And that's being generous. The few gun stores that would allow the petitions ("we don't want to be involved in politics") would let them sit under the counter, covered in dust. In San Diego, we got about 500 signatures per day at the gun shows.

Thank you for the stats on turn outs at gun stores and shows. What kind of stats do you have for gun ranges? IMO that would be another good place to collect signatures.

CalNRA
04-16-2007, 1:26 PM
From what I gathered from listening to the people in line at the last show in costa mesa is people don't join because the NRA doesn't fight for CA gun rights. Not me but the people around me. If you think about it though they do have a point. Look at our situation. Fed AW ban lifts but CA makes their own. We are surrounded by 3 states that still to this day allow AW and high cap mags. Then it gets worse what 2 or 3 years ago we get hit with another ban on the 50 bmg. The people of this state still dont see the NRA fighting for our AW rights and now we just lost another rifle. Do you really think they are gonna want to join?

As for the ballot you give the same excuses as hoff and feel your time is more valuable and not worth wasting on this effort.



you weren't around during the AB2728 and the whole of last year, were ya?

And no you didn't spend 5 mil in lost pay as you can't spend what you didn't have in the first place. You wouldn't use that logic on taxes and tell the IRS you missed 2 weeks of work and lost 10k so deduct 10k from the gross 70k I made for a grand total of 60k.

what people don't make is their contribution to the campaign. loss in pay is their payment in volunteering the time.

do you ask a gunsmith to do things for you for free on his day off just because he wouldn't make any money on that day in the first place?

simple math. if they went to work they would earn 5 mil in that week in total. If they went to campaign they earn nothing. they are 5 mil poorer. Are you saying that their time and energy is worth nothing?

jnojr
04-16-2007, 1:33 PM
From what I gathered from listening to the people in line at the last show in costa mesa is people don't join because the NRA doesn't fight for CA gun rights.

That is a common perception. There are things the NRA could do to counter that, but that's another issue.

Lots of gun owners think the NRA is a radical, foaming-at-the-mouth group that's against sensible precautions. Others thing they're a spineless group of sellouts who aren't strong enough. More think they're a Republican mouthpiece. Others have their own ideas about what the NRA should be doing and how, and they won't sign until the NRA is run the way they think it should be. And plenty more are just lazy... they really don't care. Gun control doesn't affect them. There are possibly tens of thousands of unregistered "assault weapons" out there, because some guy thought it'd be cool to have an AK to have fun with on the weekends, and he never watches the boring old news.

So, out of all gun owners, only a fraction care about their rights, and only a fraction of that fraction will join the NRA, and only a fraction of that fraction of that fraction will ever even write a letter or make a phone call. The people who will actually do something are numbered in the dozens.

midnitereaper
04-16-2007, 1:47 PM
you weren't around during the AB2728 and the whole of last year, were ya?



what people don't make is their contribution to the campaign. loss in pay is their payment in volunteering the time.

do you ask a gunsmith to do things for you for free on his day off just because he wouldn't make any money on that day in the first place?

simple math. if they went to work they would earn 5 mil in that week in total. If they went to campaign they earn nothing. they are 5 mil poorer. Are you saying that their time and energy is worth nothing?

Yup I was around last year. AB2728 taking away the AG right to re list and making transport of AW felony but possession misdorminer if I remember correctly. We still have the AW ban and 50 bmg ban. And you can post on here all day telling me what you feel the NRA has done to help CA gun rights but it ain't going to convince the people I was standing in line with at the show now is it?

Now if a gunsmith WORKS on his day off then it is no longer his day off now is it? So he would charge me for his time now wouldn't he.

They sacrificed their time and energy for a cause. They volunteered. Nobody is making them do this hence the term volunteer. Your making up a 5mil dollar amount and placing it losses. On the flip side I could take that 5 mil and put into gain for the org as we just got free labor worth 5 mil. Are you getting the picture yet? There is no LOSS or gain for something that was never there to begin with. Now if you want to pay your volunteers a total of 5 mil and then yes by all means you can collect that entire amount as an expence and if the campaing fails turn it into a loss.

Again, would you actually take this 5mil loss you are claiming and report it on taxes? No, so do you keep bringing it up here?

hoffmang
04-16-2007, 7:35 PM
Midnite,

Are you a minor?

I know a whole lot of people have ARs, AKs, and FALs that didn't have them 18 months ago. I also know that no more rifles will be listed as Assault Weapons. I further know that people can use bullet buttons on their fixed magazine rifle builds.

I know I've written a ton of long and hard to research letters that had a hand in - for example - stopping or at least forestalling the new CA DOJ regulation. I can't disclose everything I'm up to but I can tell you that I've spent at least $400 on public records act requests alone.

What have you done but come here and tell us that we don't know what we're doing or what we're saying?

Income you don't make can't be recorded as a loss on taxes. Don't become an accountant because its clear your knowledge of that field is limited as well. You advocated a nationwide ballot initiative and you claim to know how government works?

-Gene

grammaton76
04-16-2007, 9:32 PM
Heh, Jonjr - one other reason folks at the Del Mar show during the RKBA initiative didn't sign, was because they'd not only signed, but also collected a few signatures themselves and already sent them in.

I remember being hassled by an RKBA guy for my signature... he'd clearly gotten frustrated by that point, and he was more than a bit aggressive about how I "didn't care". I don't think I ever got it through his head that the only reason I wasn't signing his, was because my signature would just be a duplicate entry that'd skew the counts.

midnitereaper
04-16-2007, 10:10 PM
Midnite,

Are you a minor?

I know a whole lot of people have ARs, AKs, and FALs that didn't have them 18 months ago. I also know that no more rifles will be listed as Assault Weapons. I further know that people can use bullet buttons on their fixed magazine rifle builds.

I know I've written a ton of long and hard to research letters that had a hand in - for example - stopping or at least forestalling the new CA DOJ regulation. I can't disclose everything I'm up to but I can tell you that I've spent at least $400 on public records act requests alone.

What have you done but come here and tell us that we don't know what we're doing or what we're saying?

Income you don't make can't be recorded as a loss on taxes. Don't become an accountant because its clear your knowledge of that field is limited as well. You advocated a nationwide ballot initiative and you claim to know how government works?

-Gene

Last time, no more of this

Your statement - Do you understand that the guys you are attacking on this thread spend quite a bit of their time doing effective things to help get our rights back?

Are we allowed to buy a colt AR?
Are we allowed to buy a Bushmaster?
Are we allowed to have a fully operational AR unpinned 30 rnd mag with all so called evil features?
Are we allowed to have a model AR-15 or AK-47?

NO NO NO! So AGAIN what RIGHTS have you brought BACK that were once taken away?

The OLL situation was and is a way to work the wording of the law and thats it. Theres nothing wrong with it and I am happy the people on here have helped so many understand how to work the law but don't think you have given BACK our right to own the AR! When we ALL work together with the NRA and other pro gun organizations to abolish the state AW ban THEN we will have gotten BACK OUR RIGHTS!

Hoff maybe you should go back and reread our comments. Am I telling what to do? I don't think so! You Bwiese and a couple other members KEEP TRASHING other members ideas on this post and others. I called you on it and you still keep coming at me with insults and BS!
All I hear from you and 2 others is:
Don't start a bill it costs billions.
Don't protest it makes us look bad.
Don't sue it will hurt our cause.

Yet I hear none of you idiots coming up with other ideas for us to do instead that will help us. Why is that? scared we all will trash your dumbass idea? Tell ya what, you don't want to argue with me then stop trashing other members ideas and start giving positive advice to make members ideas better. If you can't give any good advice and just trash then STFU! members have brought 3 diferent pro gun ideas to this board and you and a couple other jackoffs just trash em and I'm gettin a little sick and tired of it. And no I'm not gonna freakin leave but fight back and start having you trashes start explaining your freakin case!

Again reread! Are you iliterate too? Did I say report the income not made as a loss? Or did I ask? Did I advocate a nation wide ballot? Aren't you the one going back and forth between nation and state and mixing the 2 up? I even asked you why we needed a national budget on a state issue.

hoffmang
04-16-2007, 10:12 PM
Don Quixote...

I'm done.

-Gene

383green
04-16-2007, 11:14 PM
Midnitereaper, if you want people to take your ideas seriously, then a good start would be not calling them idiots, jackoffs, retarded, illiterate (you spelled "illiterate" incorrectly ;)), etc.

The so-called idiots explained clearly and courteously exactly why it's difficult and expensive to put an initiative on the ballot, and why it'll cost a lot of money to give the initiative a reasonable chance of passing even after obtaining the necessary unique signatures during the required window of time. If you have innovative ideas and/or access to unusual resources that would let you accomplish this on the cheap, then please go ahead and prove them wrong.

From my point of view, I see that you have a strong desire to change things for the better, but it seems to me that the "idiots" have mostly written well-reasoned, well-informed, logical and polite postings in this thread, while your postings seem to be a mixture of ad-hominem attacks and statements which don't line up too well with what I know about the ballot initiative process, the magnitude of the task at hand, and economics in general.

grammaton76
04-16-2007, 11:22 PM
Actually, the biggest reason to avoid this to avoid a rerun of what happened after RKBA. Simply put, after it failed, a lot of folks who'd put effort into it and volunteered, felt like nothing they did would matter and just gave up on volunteering. I'd rather see the energy get invested towards something with a chance... after all, if it succeeds, you don't lose volunteers for other efforts due to discouragement.

MedSpec65
04-16-2007, 11:35 PM
:rolleyes: Change takes time. The NRA and CRPA legal teams have been doing a great job here in CA in recent years. I just don't think the initiative process is the way to go in a State that's been transformed by an invasion of illiterates (tomorrow's legal voters) and graduates of Eastern Institutions of Lower Living. Keep on diggin' deep and often to the NRA-ILA and the CRPA. Just supporting this forum is a big help.