PDA

View Full Version : Heads up Manteca Sportsman


DB2
04-15-2007, 2:14 PM
Just got back from taking the new build out. Manteca Sportsman will not let you shoot your registered AW without showing legal proof of it being registered, and will not let you shoot your OLL without it having what they think it should have:confused: .

I was told by the head guy a the desk that someone came out last week with a detachable mag rifle and a "really long magazine":eek:. Some one saw it from the road and called the Sheriff. 4 sheriffs show up "with guns drawn" and confiscate said weapon, and tell the owner he has 7(?) days to prove legal owner/registration papers, or felony charges will be brought up on him. Head guy asked me what I was going to shoot, told him a fixed mag OLL AR and a lever action, and he said ok.

I had been there an hour and a half shooting paper when a RM comes out and says he wants to check my rifle. I ask him what he wants to check it for? I show him the mag lock (bullet button, but I don't show how it works), and extended pin. He tries like heck to push the button in, then he tells me to break it open & I ask him why? He says "to make sure it has what it is supposed to". Huh? So I break it open, he looks inside and says ok. After he got done I decided to packed up and leave. This might be normal for ranges since this was my first time shooting an OLL there, but I thought it was odd.

There were 4 or 5 other guys there also shooting various rifles, I saw 1 AR and an AK. I assume registered since I saw mags detach with no tools involved. They left right after me after they had a lengthy discussion with the RM. Don't no if they were told to leave or what.

Anyway new rifle shot 128 rounds flawless, even with my cheap promagish 10/20 mag.:D

Thought I'd give a heads up so if any others go out there any time soon you know what to expect.

Matt C
04-15-2007, 2:22 PM
That's not normal for the places I shoot at, but I have heard similar (and worse) horror stories. I really can't figure out why no one ever tries these things with me.

SkyMag68
04-15-2007, 10:42 PM
I been there couple time with my OLL...havn't run into any problem with RM or anybody there soo far..

JS-M1A
04-15-2007, 11:27 PM
I`ve been shooting there since I was about 11. Never had any problems.
I`ve brought a few reg`d Aw`s there to shoot never even had anyone look
at me sideways. I do always bring my paperwork when shooting my
aw`s.Guess maybe I`m not so paranoid.

ZapThyCat
04-15-2007, 11:30 PM
Hmm. I think I'll head to Linden rather than Manteca....

DB2
04-16-2007, 8:09 AM
I been there couple time with my OLL...havn't run into any problem with RM or anybody there soo far..

THis happened last week, so there probably will be problems now.:mad:

anothergunnut
04-20-2007, 3:49 PM
I was there today with an FN49. The guy at the counter was telling me how this was an AW that had to be registered. I tried to explain why it wasn't because it didn't have any "features". He replied that it has a bayonet lug which I explained is not a CA feature but he insisted it was. He was familiar with FN49s; said he had one that he had to have registered in the past. Anyway, he did not say that I couldn't shoot it, which is surprising, since he essentially was saying I had an unregistered AW. I am a regular so maybe that is why. Next time I go I will have to bring the law with me to explain it to him.

proraptor
04-20-2007, 4:31 PM
I wont even give ranges like that my money....They need to educate themselves!

RobG
04-21-2007, 8:52 AM
Amazing. You would think a gun range would be gun friendly or, at least somewhat familiar with whats new in the gun world :(

DB2
04-21-2007, 9:18 AM
I was there today with an FN49. The guy at the counter was telling me how this was an AW that had to be registered. I tried to explain why it wasn't because it didn't have any "features". He replied that it has a bayonet lug which I explained is not a CA feature but he insisted it was. He was familiar with FN49s; said he had one that he had to have registered in the past. Anyway, he did not say that I couldn't shoot it, which is surprizing, since he essentially was saying I had an unregistered AW. I am a regular so maybe that is why. Next time I go I will have to bring the law with me to explain it to him.
Glad to see that it wasn't just me.


I normally leave everything in the car till after I pay. It would be nice to see if those guys could be educated on this, I assumed they would have already known.

wilit
04-21-2007, 9:40 AM
That's not normal for the places I shoot at, but I have heard similar (and worse) horror stories. I really can't figure out why no one ever tries these things with me.

It is normal at Manteca. That guy is a douche. There was a thread a few months back about how retarded that guy is. He's the sole reason I hate shooting there. The old lady and her husband who own the place are cool as hell. Too bad they hired this dumbass.

reddot45
04-21-2007, 10:21 AM
thats why i shoot at farmington..they don't give a crap what you shoot..and no range master either!!!

Mike 56
05-02-2007, 10:52 PM
Manteca Sportsmans Club is a tough crowd. That's why i don't shoot there any more. I have to admit it is funny to watch Colonel Klink walking down the firing line with hands behind his back making sure weapons are clear or finding a newbie to yell at like he is a PFC. reddot keep Farmington on the downlow we want to keep it just the way it is.

LAK Supply
05-03-2007, 7:51 AM
You guys are right.... that RM is a know-it-all assmaster. I've had problems over there several times including once when I got there just a few minutes before closing to sight in for my trip up the hill to get a deer that night.

I won't tell the full story here but I will say that it involved me RUNNING between ranges chasing the sun because when it got to a certain point I had to stop....... Didn't matter that by their own rules they still should have been open for another 20-30 minutes.... that ******* was just trying to be be God out there in his cute little instructor's hat.

I agree with Red Dot on Farmington though... Speaking of which, check you inbox RedDot......

midvalleyshooter
01-01-2008, 3:43 PM
OK folks I am going to pile on here. WHAT FOLLOWS IS A RANT. DON'T READ ANY FURTHER IF THIS SORT OF THING UPSETS YOU. Normaly I don't rack on other folks in the shooting community, but this needs to be said.

RANT MODE ON:

My 2 cents on Manteca. I have been involved in action shooting about 25 years. I'm a certified RO in two action shooting organizations. I have countless hours logged running shooters through stages of fire. I was out at Manteca a couple years ago. I was punching tight groups with my Kimber 45 and the gentleman you are refering to came out and gave me a "pistol shooting lesson". Now don't get me wrong, I figure I can always learn something new and was willing to listen. But think of why this guy singled me out. I was shooting the tightest groups of all the shooters on the range at that point. Inside of 10 yards is a ragged hole and out to 25 you can cover with the palm of your hand. I was a little amused and went along with his "lesson":)

Another time I was sighting in my mini 14 on the members only 50 yard range (I was a member then). I was just taking careful aim and squeezing rounds off. Certainly not attempting to shoot fast. After about 10 rounds along comes a club member acting as a RO to fulfill his membership duties and he tells me to knock off the rapid fire!!! I said, excuse me you must be confusing my shots with someone elses. He says no I was watching you and you were firing more than a shot every 3 seconds. I said well all my shots were within a 2 inch circle, look at my target. He says just slow down or you will be asked to leave.

Then another time I took my new SU16CA out to shoot the first time. The gentleman in question and another "RO" made a freaking deal out of the threaded barrel. I was also given a ration of &^%$ for wanting to shoot my .223 on the 25 yard range. I explained I wanted to get a rough sight in with the somewhat crude Kel Tec peep sights so I could stay on the berm at longer distances. The Gent you guys are so fond of said "OK, but just 10 rounds". So I go shoot the 10 rounds and the guy actually comes out to enforce the 10 round limit!!! Like I am a child, I remained calm but wanted to B&^%$# slap him.

That was enough for me, I joined a different range where "my kind" are not only accepted, but encouraged.

RANT MODE OFF:

Happy New Year:)
Keith

bwiese
01-01-2008, 3:48 PM
If everything in the above story about Sheriff's is true and not mistranslated rumor, they're friggin idiots.

They can run AW serial #s via their MDTs. You do not have to prove your reg'd AW legal, they have to prove it's ILLEGAL.

It's also perfectly legal to have a hicap mag in a featureless OLL build as long as that hicap mag was acquired pre-2000.

USN CHIEF
01-01-2008, 4:18 PM
Oh man, I am so glad that down here in San Diego we have South Bay Rod & Gun Club. $65 a year for membership, friendly RO's, As long as you have positive control of where your lead is hitting, squeze the trigger as fast as you can and no problems.. AW's and OLL friendly, the best range so far and did I mention that is out doors! If you are ever in San Diego, come on out and check it out for your self.

Thorsen
01-01-2008, 4:25 PM
Lol, gotta love Manteca Sportsman. I've been there one time and will never go back. I took my H&K USP there cause I wanted to shoot it someplace that wasn't indoors. I think I put all of maybe ten rounds through it before I had the range officer over my shoulder telling me exactly what I was doing wrong. I then, had a ten minute private lesson on shooting technique where the RO managed to use up approximately a half a box of my WWB.

I had my mini 14 with me at the time but I didn't even want to take that to the rifle range cause I couldn't afford any more lessons.

I now do all of my shooting out at my mom's house in Oakdale(outside of city limits). She has a couple of acres that go all the way down to the river and she doesn't care what I shoot as long as I shoot responsibly.

Jon
01-01-2008, 4:33 PM
I had my mini 14 with me at the time but I didn't even want to take that to the rifle range cause I couldn't afford any more lessons.


Now that's funny, I don't care who you are! :p

Max-the-Silent
01-01-2008, 4:44 PM
I was there today with an FN49. The guy at the counter was telling me how this was an AW that had to be registered. I tried to explain why it wasn't because it didn't have any "features". He replied that it has a bayonet lug which I explained is not a CA feature but he insisted it was. He was familiar with FN49s; said he had one that he had to have registered in the past. Anyway, he did not say that I couldn't shoot it, which is surprizing, since he essentially was saying I had an unregistered AW. I am a regular so maybe that is why. Next time I go I will have to bring the law with me to explain it to him.

Should have asked him about practicing law without a license...

You can't educate a fool, be it a civilian, a LEO, or a self-appointed "expert"

My advice would be to avoid this establishment.

anothergunnut
01-01-2008, 5:49 PM
I was at the high power match (observing only) on Nov 11th. The club treasurer was there presiding over the match. A competitor was shooting an AR-15 type rifle with a MMG. I would assume that means OLLs, if properly configured, are allowable.

Another time I was there on a Sunday and a guest had two AR-15 types that had pinned magazines.

philthy209
01-01-2008, 5:54 PM
i live in manteca and go to this range almost every saturday with my oll. I have never had a problem with them checking my rifles. Though i don't slap my guns on the table as i'm filling out paperwork either.

It seems a little exagerated that four officers would show up to a GUN range with guns drawn.

Are you guys talking about the guy who always wears the green military shooting vest with the paded shoulder? If so there are much worse than him.

He always asks me what i'm shooting and i say .223 ar15, he has never taken it passed that or asked to see my guns and when my brother in-law came with me last weekend to zero in his new varmit upper that old guy welcomed us to use the 25 yard range and reminded us to site 2 inches above dead center.

I guess it pays to be a familiar face, But that sucks if i'm gonna get hassled about my guns now.

They raised their rates to $15 now. is that expensive or is it just me?

Soldier415
01-01-2008, 5:58 PM
Just wanted to take this moment to say, you will never experience azz clown range staff like this if you come to Bullseye Indoor Range. Only applies to bay area shooters unless you want to drive far.

We are indoor, so HG and .22lr only...but you will always be treated courteously and friendly.

We are extremely Calguns friendly :D


www.bullseyerange.com

fast318
01-01-2008, 6:06 PM
Oh man, I am so glad that down here in San Diego we have South Bay Rod & Gun Club. $65 a year for membership, friendly RO's, As long as you have positive control of where your lead is hitting, squeze the trigger as fast as you can and no problems.. AW's and OLL friendly, the best range so far and did I mention that is out doors! If you are ever in San Diego, come on out and check it out for your self.

+1 for SBR&G

kurac
01-01-2008, 6:11 PM
I hate range nazis, they can really ruin a good range.

I was at a Bay Area range on Sunday with multiple people shooting OLL's there was one guy that had a bullet button and would remove his magazine during each cease fire to show clear, no one said anything and I don't think anyone was looking to cause trouble for paying customer. The guy in Manteca likes to cut his own throat I guess.

JS-M1A
01-01-2008, 8:02 PM
I`ve been shooting there since I was about 11. Never had any problems.
I`ve brought a few reg`d Aw`s there to shoot never even had anyone look
at me sideways. I do always bring my paperwork when shooting my
aw`s.Guess maybe I`m not so paranoid.
Funny thing happened on my last (and I mean last)visit to the sportsman.
The Ro seemed like he was having some sort of power trip issue.
All was well until I brought out one of my reg`d weapons.
He then proceeds to tell me about police,arrest,illegal weapon,
Etc,etc,etc. He then chimes in that he is not a police officer.
I let him know this is a registered AW and I do have the paperwork.
I even let him see the paperwork acl0wn. Used to be a nice
Place to shoot.

tygerpaw
01-01-2008, 9:35 PM
Sure makes me appreciate Yolo Sportsman Association, despite the fact they doubled the day fee (from $1.00 per day to $2.00 per day; fine with me). Jeff is a real strict RO, but one of the nicest and most helpful guys around, just dont break the rules. He doesnt care what you shoot as long as it is not rapid fire and is pointed in the right direction :D.

Soldier415
01-01-2008, 9:38 PM
He doesnt care what you shoot as long as it is not rapid fire and is pointed in the right direction :D.

rapid fire from what I have observed is a mtter of skill. as an indoor range, if you have inexperienced shooters or "homeys" in the rapid firing, they end up shooting the target holders, cables, anything but the target.

But we have members who can shoot 8 shots rapid fire into a group you can cover with your palm....

All depends

CRTguns
01-01-2008, 9:57 PM
Echo all that- there are 2 tools at the range there... one's a thin gray guy, the other is a retired mail carrier that always wears camo pants and the orange vest. They both deserve a 2x4 accross the forehead. Nuthin you can do is ever good enough for them.

I actually witnessed the mail carrier nazi type NEARLY draw his sidearm on an off-duty Ripon PD- the ripon cop was shooting his scoped raging bull 454 on the 100 yd rifle range. He almost got shot for "breaking the rules"

Don't go there. Ever.

LAK Supply
01-01-2008, 10:33 PM
Yeah.... tha *****hole with the gray beard and the "NRA Instructor" hat? That guy's a know it all *****.... I had about half of one of his "lessons" before I told him to screw off.

I hear Dan berated him in front of a group of people and got the boot.... I love Dan sometimes!

Army
01-02-2008, 12:26 AM
I think I shall go there just to raise a little.....awareness :43:

Nothing worse at a range, than a RO convinced he is right about everything.

PS: the SLOSA range will never turn away your guns, especially if you let us RSO's shoot it :D

philthy209
01-02-2008, 8:02 AM
What are some alternatives in the area? I'll have to check out linden even if i have to travel through stockton:( to get there.

Fjold
01-02-2008, 8:42 AM
What are some alternatives in the area? I'll have to check out linden even if i have to travel through stockton:( to get there.

I used to drive up Jack Ranch Road and bypass Stockton on the east side to get to the range off of Highway 4 and the Escolan-Bellota Road.

viras
01-02-2008, 8:51 AM
Oh man, I am so glad that down here in San Diego we have South Bay Rod & Gun Club. $65 a year for membership, friendly RO's, As long as you have positive control of where your lead is hitting, squeze the trigger as fast as you can and no problems.. AW's and OLL friendly, the best range so far and did I mention that is out doors! If you are ever in San Diego, come on out and check it out for your self.

Dude, this is awesome - THANK YOU! I'm in SD and I never even knew this place existed! I've been driving way the hell out there to Carrizo Creek all this time.

DB2
01-02-2008, 8:56 AM
Now that I've found a couple gunfriendly landowners around here, I try and avoid the Sportsman like the plague. I've been there once since I posted this. The guy at the bench next to me was complaining about the blast from my Garand, then he left :shrug:. The next guy that sat down and *****ed about my OLL. I finished and left. Between the members and the RO's i'll just stay away.

Private land is so cool. Last time I went out, the guy putting it on blew up a S-10 with tannerite.:eek:


ETA: after I had posted about this, I got a PM from the other guy out there. He said that he was getting hasseled about his stuff also, and decided to leave when i did.

BLACKWATER
01-02-2008, 3:27 PM
I guess if someone breaks into your home with the intent to kill you or your family you better fire 1 shot every 3 seconds. These people need to chill with that mentality at the range. No wonder why some CA friends of mine go shoot in NV and get hard ons from that.

SkyMag68
01-02-2008, 8:14 PM
Been there many time, twice with my OLL and zero BS...guess those a**hole wasn't there..its nicer old man at counter.

Ford8N
01-03-2008, 5:40 AM
I think I shall go there just to raise a little.....awareness :43:

Nothing worse at a range, than a RO convinced he is right about everything.

PS: the SLOSA range will never turn away your guns, especially if you let us RSO's shoot it :D


+1

"...and don't shoot the 475 yd. gong when the cows are near it." :D

Calhunter380
01-03-2008, 11:27 AM
LMAO, Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks these guys are !$@holes. It's been at least 2 years since I've been there. Used to be the only place I would shoot but I got extremely tired of the so called "lessons". We would laugh and laugh when someone new would come along and he would move on to them. I've seen guys get reprimanded by the Range Nazi for rapid firing when there was no rapid fire and I've seen guys not get reprimanded when obviously rapid firing. Must've been a buddy.... Only place I go anymore is Panoche. Nobody ever complains and you can rapid fire all you want. Not to mention you can shoot 10yds, 20yds, 50yds, 500yds, etc even with a pistol!! Was just out there new years day shooting my new build and had the whole place to ourselves :D Just sucks to have to drive an hour and a half to get there, but it's worth it :43:

philthy209
01-03-2008, 11:50 AM
Theres gotta be a closer place than Panoche where us manteca area guys can shoot in peace.

Calhunter380
01-03-2008, 1:06 PM
There are a few private clubs like Turlock Sportsman's Club but they have to vote you in after reviewing an application and only so many members a year and blah blah blah. Panoche is the closest place I've found to truely be left alone. So if you find somewhere closer you be sure to shoot me a pm :D I'm in the Modesto/Turlock area BTW

Wahooo03
01-04-2008, 5:07 PM
Ya, the RM is a real jack@#%. It's really too bad that no one who belongs to the club realizes just how much business he is personally turning away because there are some great members and activities there. I won't shoot there anymore because of him.

AngelDecoys
01-04-2008, 7:55 PM
I've been a member of the Manteca Sportsmen for many years. Many of the posts here are exaggerations at best.

For example. 1 officer was called because someone was shooting a fully automatic AK on the range. Not a semi-auto. It was, and is a liability issue.

Regarding 'guy' in front office. At $8/hour (name removed) has been there for many years. He is a bit zealous, and has had people 'higher up' talk to him on occasion about his attitude.

It has taken several years for anyone to EVEN know that there were those who had problems with him. Thanks for letting us know.

Gee, let me guess. Most if not all of you never voiced your frustration with anyone. Try calling the President of the club, or telling someone.

http://www.mantecasportsmen.org/

Or don't expect change if you're too much of a coward to say anything.

Yes, there has been instances where the RSO has asked to see paperwork. It is a private club open to the public. There are liability concerns. Many in the club do not like the policy. However, as opposed to having the 1 accident, and being shut down altogether like so many other clubs, we deal with it.

I keep my EBR (Evil black rifle) complaint as I don't intend on being a test case for the CA judicial system. 9 years in jail and picking up soap is not my thing. Try buying a CA compliant stock or keep it stored out of state at Front Sight.

Same with holster work. While I would love to run a Front Sight refresher there for those who have had training to do so, drawing from a holster isn't covered by the insurance. And sorry, police are generally pretty incompetent with their malfunction drills so there's no preference.

Instead I have to be satisfied helping the other instructors teach Pistol/rifle,shotgun 1,2,3. And how to clear a house with airsoft pistols. Again, its liability.

FYI - The club is not owned by a person. It is a non-profit organization run by a board of directors who are all volunteers.

Lastly, $15 is not too much. About the cost of 1 box of .45. Inflation dropped the value of the dollar 10% last year, and guess what....... we charge the public more over charging members more. Go figure.

For $50/year you can shoot as much as you like, whenever. No fee for each visit, and your work hours are as simple as throwing on an RSO jacket whenever you are there.

G17GUY
01-04-2008, 9:34 PM
I've been a member of the Manteca Sportsmen for many years. Many of the posts here are exaggerations at best.

For example. 1 officer was called because someone was shooting a fully automatic AK on the range. Not a semi-auto. It was, and is a liability issue.

Regarding 'guy' in front office. At $8/hour Steve has been there for many years. He is a bit zealous, and has had people 'higher up' talk to him on occasion about his attitude.

It has taken several years for anyone to EVEN know that there were those who had problems with him. Thanks for letting us know.

Gee, let me guess. Most if not all of you never voiced your frustration with anyone. Try calling the President of the club, or telling someone.

http://www.mantecasportsmen.org/

Or don't expect change if you're too much of a coward to say anything.

Yes, there has been instances where the RSO has asked to see paperwork. It is a private club open to the public. There are liability concerns. Many in the club do not like the policy. However, as opposed to having the 1 accident, and being shut down altogether like so many other clubs, we deal with it.

I keep my EBR (Evil black rifle) complaint as I don't intend on being a test case for the CA judicial system. 9 years in jail and picking up soap is not my thing. Try buying a CA compliant stock or keep it stored out of state at Front Sight.

Same with holster work. While I would love to run a Front Sight refresher there for those who have had training to do so, drawing from a holster isn't covered by the insurance. And sorry, police are generally pretty incompetent with their malfunction drills so there's no preference.

Instead I have to be satisfied helping the other instructors teach Pistol/rifle,shotgun 1,2,3. And how to clear a house with airsoft pistols. Again, its liability.

FYI - The club is not owned by a person. It is a non-profit organization run by a board of directors who are all volunteers.

Lastly, $15 is not too much. About the cost of 1 box of .45. Inflation dropped the value of the dollar 10% last year, and guess what....... we charge the public more over charging members more. Go figure.

For $50/year you can shoot as much as you like, whenever. No fee for each visit, and your work hours are as simple as throwing on an RSO jacket whenever you are there.


No thanks, much better places to go!

AngelDecoys
01-05-2008, 11:30 AM
G17GUY: Well if you're unwilling to make a phone call, or send an email to voice a complaint. (And the guy everyone here has such issues about has had only 1 complaint in 10 years), then by all means go someplace else.

Can't say the club will miss someone, or a bunch of someone's who may put it at risk to be closed. Many clubs have already been closed due to their lack of concern.

The Manteca Sportsmen is not willing to risk it.

philthy209
01-05-2008, 11:56 AM
so are you saying i can't shoot my AR out there unless i have MMG or a u-125stock? You won't allow bullet buttons?

Is it 50$ a year + hours? The girl in the office told me it was $150 a year

Are you required to inspect your customers weapons before they shoot? Why would you be liable if a guy had an illegaly configured rifdle? I'm not trying to be an #$%. I really don't know the answers to these questions.

wilit
01-05-2008, 12:06 PM
G17GUY: Well if you're unwilling to make a phone call, or send an email to voice a complaint. (And the guy everyone here has such issues about has had only 1 complaint in 10 years), then by all means go someplace else.


Sorry, I gotta call BS on this one. I know for a fact I myself have complained once and my buddy has complained at least twice, so either your number of complaints are incorrect or they've been magically "lost." That front desk guy, is the sole reason Manteca Sportsman is not fun to shoot anymore. I loved it when it was just the old lady and her husband. I started going there in '96 but quit going because of the BS the "front desk guy" spews. Get rid of him, and you'll have a much more enjoyable range.

AngelDecoys
01-05-2008, 12:58 PM
philthy209. If the rifle is CA compliant, you can shoot it there without an issue. As my rifle was made/pruchased years ago, I had the choice of either shooting it only out of state (storing it here without the pistol grip to be complaint), or putting on the alternative stock. If the rifle is complaint you can shoot it at the Manteca Sportsmen. Even if you go someplace else, don't be a test case for the law (mandatory 9 years in jail).

As far as I know, the membership is $50 + 20 hours/year. (It may be that it's higher [$150] for the first year) Then again, I've been a member for some time, but check with someone other than the NEW girl who I'm assuming you spoke with.

wilit: Sorry, let me clarify. I verified with the President this morning. As far as he knows, there has been only 1 complaint filed from a member. (ME - 2007).

As I mentioned above, the 'front guy' has been spoken too a few times over the years.

I do not know who you filled the complaint with, but I doubt that it was with the President. Was it even in writing? Probably filed in the circular bin. The club is very sensitive to outside complaints.

Change will not happen until paying customers make a lot of noise. That has only happened on occasion from paying customers so like any business, it is mostly ignored.

PS - Husband is dead. The wife Angie is retiring soon.

Anyway, I'm off to help run the FREE woman's pistol class.

wilit
01-05-2008, 1:32 PM
PS - Husband is dead. The wife Angie is retiring soon.



Sorry to hear that. Those two are good people.



I do not know who you filled the complaint with, but I doubt that it was with the President. Was it even in writing? Probably filed in the circular bin. The club is very sensitive to outside complaints.

Well, here's an idea. Why don't you forward this thread on to the president. There are plenty of complaints in writing right here.

AngelDecoys
01-05-2008, 2:18 PM
wilit. Very true, we're going to miss Angie when she gets around to retiring. She's been putting out cooked food for members at her own expense for years now. She's heading back to Pittsburg, PA

You are right, there are several complaints here. Some months old.

President is aware of these as of this morning. 'Guy' in front already has had his hours reduced. (That happened a few months back). Hense, why there's a new girl working the counter.

If customers want more done, they will have to go to the range, and if there is an issue, make some noise, write a letter. Up to customers to make noise.

Then the board would have to discuss it, and then they would have to decide if further action was warrented.

Hanniballs
01-05-2008, 2:34 PM
I think I shall go there just to raise a little.....awareness :43:

Nothing worse at a range, than a RO convinced he is right about everything.

PS: the SLOSA range will never turn away your guns, especially if you let us RSO's shoot it :D

When do you want to go? :43:

CGstaff
01-05-2008, 6:31 PM
First of all - as a member of the Manteca Sportsman for many years I have to call BS to much of what is being stated on this thread.

I would have to agree that the guy at the desk has what could best be termed as unpleasant habits. I too have fallen victim to the impromptu shooting lesson even though I have been shooting since I was seven and hold instructors classifications with the NRA in pistol and Range Safety Officer.

That being said, please understand that this is a private range that is open to the public. Other than Angie and the guy at the desk we really have no other employees. None. The whole place runs on, you guessed it, volunteer labor.

Than means that people such as myself and others work many hours to maintain the range and keep the facilities up. Oh, and by the way, the place has flooded at least twice and we had to go in there and clean and rebuild the place after each event. Each member actually spends on average OVER A WEEK OF THEIR TIME as a volunteer at the range. That allows us to keep the range open.

$15 too much. Are you kidding me? It's not like we are all paying ourselves huge salaries as the money goes to, you guessed it, LIABILITY INSURANCE as well as ELECTRICITY. Plus we pay the guy at the counter a whopping $8.00 an hour!

I too will mention the complaints that I see on this board to the president and we will address them.

On another topic - are you really upset that you cannot bring AK-47's or AR-15's to the range? Do you think it's a good idea to turn a blind eye when people fire fully automatic weapons on a public range? Guys - think this one through!

We have ALREADY lost most of the ranges in California - just try to find one in the bay area that is an open range other than Livermore and we know about the problems that they have been having. We are just one negligent discharge away from closing and that would hurt all of us!

Look - I probably am wasting my time even writing this but I just have grown tired of people that constantly complain but do little to change things. My question to all of you - when was the last time that you volunteered at a range? Went to a Friends of the NRA dinner? Helped at an NRA event? If you have done these things then I thank you! I have spent countless hours volunteering for the cause and then I get to check this message board and what I see are posts that indicate "we should go there to raise a little .... awareness." Do us all a favor. Go to the Manteca Sportsman, pick up a membership application, join, pay your dues and then VOLUNTEER!

Fjold
01-05-2008, 6:55 PM
First of all - as a member of the Manteca Sportsman for many years I have to call BS to much of what is being stated on this thread.

I would have to agree that the guy at the desk has what could best be termed as unpleasant habits. I too have fallen victim to the impromptu shooting lesson even though I have been shooting since I was seven and hold instructors classifications with the NRA in pistol and Range Safety Officer.

That being said, please understand that this is a private range that is open to the public. Other than Angie and the guy at the desk we really have no other employees. None. The whole place runs on, you guessed it, volunteer labor.

Than means that people such as myself and others work many hours to maintain the range and keep the facilities up. Oh, and by the way, the place has flooded at least twice and we had to go in there and clean and rebuild the place after each event. Each member actually spends on average OVER A WEEK OF THEIR TIME as a volunteer at the range. That allows us to keep the range open.

$15 too much. Are you kidding me? It's not like we are all paying ourselves huge salaries as the money goes to, you guessed it, LIABILITY INSURANCE as well as ELECTRICITY. Plus we pay the guy at the counter a whopping $8.00 an hour!

I too will mention the complaints that I see on this board to the president and we will address them.

On another topic - are you really upset that you cannot bring AK-47's or AR-15's to the range? Do you think it's a good idea to turn a blind eye when people fire fully automatic weapons on a public range? Guys - think this one through!

We have ALREADY lost most of the ranges in California - just try to find one in the bay area that is an open range other than Livermore and we know about the problems that they have been having. We are just one negligent discharge away from closing and that would hurt all of us!

Look - I probably am wasting my time even writing this but I just have grown tired of people that constantly complain but do little to change things. My question to all of you - when was the last time that you volunteered at a range? Went to a Friends of the NRA dinner? Helped at an NRA event? If you have done these things then I thank you! I have spent countless hours volunteering for the cause and then I get to check this message board and what I see are posts that indicate "we should go there to raise a little .... awareness." Do us all a favor. Go to the Manteca Sportsman, pick up a membership application, join, pay your dues and then VOLUNTEER!


I don't think that the majority of the complaints are about the cost of the range, the condition of the range or the rules at the range. The complaints are about your $8 employee and how his know-it-all, condescending attitude and inconsistent enforcement of the rules causes your paying customers to feel uncomfortable and ruins their enjoyment of the range.

The only criticism that I see on how the range is run is that they do not seem to control this one employee and how the customer's complaints about him seem to have fallen on deaf ears.


I used to live in Manteca and shoot at the range back in the 80's.

wilit
01-05-2008, 6:58 PM
Okay, first off, I just read through every post in this thread and I don't know where you and Angeldecoys are getting this full auto AK47 and AR15 stuff. It was never mentioned in this thread other than in Angeldeoys' first post. If someone came to the range with an unregistered NFA controlled weapon, then yes, I doubt anyone here would have a problem with you kicking him out or calling the cops. I'm pretty sure that everyone on this board is more concerned about having a fully compliant AK or AR clone and the guy at the front desk freaking out and calling the cops.

Also, nobody is bagging on the range itself. It is a single individual who gives the entire range a bad name. Nobody has complained about anything other than the "front desk guy". Nobody wants to see Manteca Sportsman close. But I'm telling you as a fan of shooting sports and as a consumer, you are loosing customers by keeping the "front desk guy" employed at the range. Why would people exaggerate about his behavior? Hell, even you and Angeldecoys admitted he is a overzealous and has unpleasant habits.

DB2
01-05-2008, 7:07 PM
On another topic - are you really upset that you cannot bring AK-47's or AR-15's to the range? Do you think it's a good idea to turn a blind eye when people fire fully automatic weapons on a public range? Guys - think this one through!






My AK and AR are not full auto. Neither are probably 99% of the other ones in this state. You are subjecting them to looks. What about M1a's that look like M14's.I've seen plenty there. That's BS. If you can legaly own it you should be legal to shoot it. Range saftey is first, but this is a BS statement.

jandmtv
01-05-2008, 7:14 PM
First of all - as a member of the Manteca Sportsman for many years I have to call BS to much of what is being stated on this thread.

I would have to agree that the guy at the desk has what could best be termed as unpleasant habits. I too have fallen victim to the impromptu shooting lesson even though I have been shooting since I was seven and hold instructors classifications with the NRA in pistol and Range Safety Officer.

That being said, please understand that this is a private range that is open to the public. Other than Angie and the guy at the desk we really have no other employees. None. The whole place runs on, you guessed it, volunteer labor.

Than means that people such as myself and others work many hours to maintain the range and keep the facilities up. Oh, and by the way, the place has flooded at least twice and we had to go in there and clean and rebuild the place after each event. Each member actually spends on average OVER A WEEK OF THEIR TIME as a volunteer at the range. That allows us to keep the range open.

$15 too much. Are you kidding me? It's not like we are all paying ourselves huge salaries as the money goes to, you guessed it, LIABILITY INSURANCE as well as ELECTRICITY. Plus we pay the guy at the counter a whopping $8.00 an hour!

I too will mention the complaints that I see on this board to the president and we will address them.

On another topic - are you really upset that you cannot bring AK-47's or AR-15's to the range? Do you think it's a good idea to turn a blind eye when people fire fully automatic weapons on a public range? Guys - think this one through!

We have ALREADY lost most of the ranges in California - just try to find one in the bay area that is an open range other than Livermore and we know about the problems that they have been having. We are just one negligent discharge away from closing and that would hurt all of us!

Look - I probably am wasting my time even writing this but I just have grown tired of people that constantly complain but do little to change things. My question to all of you - when was the last time that you volunteered at a range? Went to a Friends of the NRA dinner? Helped at an NRA event? If you have done these things then I thank you! I have spent countless hours volunteering for the cause and then I get to check this message board and what I see are posts that indicate "we should go there to raise a little .... awareness." Do us all a favor. Go to the Manteca Sportsman, pick up a membership application, join, pay your dues and then VOLUNTEER!

man.... the only thing i call BS to is your attitude!
if your range is not OLL friendly, dont expect people to say good things about it!

philthy209
01-05-2008, 8:57 PM
First of all - as a member of the Manteca Sportsman for many years I have to call BS to much of what is being stated on this thread.

I would have to agree that the guy at the desk has what could best be termed as unpleasant habits. I too have fallen victim to the impromptu shooting lesson even though I have been shooting since I was seven and hold instructors classifications with the NRA in pistol and Range Safety Officer.

That being said, please understand that this is a private range that is open to the public. Other than Angie and the guy at the desk we really have no other employees. None. The whole place runs on, you guessed it, volunteer labor.

Than means that people such as myself and others work many hours to maintain the range and keep the facilities up. Oh, and by the way, the place has flooded at least twice and we had to go in there and clean and rebuild the place after each event. Each member actually spends on average OVER A WEEK OF THEIR TIME as a volunteer at the range. That allows us to keep the range open.

$15 too much. Are you kidding me? It's not like we are all paying ourselves huge salaries as the money goes to, you guessed it, LIABILITY INSURANCE as well as ELECTRICITY. Plus we pay the guy at the counter a whopping $8.00 an hour!

I too will mention the complaints that I see on this board to the president and we will address them.

On another topic - are you really upset that you cannot bring AK-47's or AR-15's to the range? Do you think it's a good idea to turn a blind eye when people fire fully automatic weapons on a public range? Guys - think this one through!

We have ALREADY lost most of the ranges in California - just try to find one in the bay area that is an open range other than Livermore and we know about the problems that they have been having. We are just one negligent discharge away from closing and that would hurt all of us!

Look - I probably am wasting my time even writing this but I just have grown tired of people that constantly complain but do little to change things. My question to all of you - when was the last time that you volunteered at a range? Went to a Friends of the NRA dinner? Helped at an NRA event? If you have done these things then I thank you! I have spent countless hours volunteering for the cause and then I get to check this message board and what I see are posts that indicate "we should go there to raise a little .... awareness." Do us all a favor. Go to the Manteca Sportsman, pick up a membership application, join, pay your dues and then VOLUNTEER!

I believe i'm the one who mentioned the $15. It was more a comparison than a complaint. I will gladly pay the $15, just was trying to get a feel for what other ranges charge and see if it's worth the drive.


you said:
"On another topic - are you really upset that you cannot bring AK-47's or AR-15's to the range? Do you think it's a good idea to turn a blind eye when people fire fully automatic weapons on a public range? Guys - think this one through!"

i am very upset i cannot bring these too your range.:tt2:

CavTrooper
01-05-2008, 9:08 PM
Yeah, full autos a public range would be totally out of line!:rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iEn9LGhRT4

jandmtv
01-05-2008, 9:16 PM
or perhaps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31vm3-BQRJU&feature=related

CGstaff
01-05-2008, 10:09 PM
I appreciate the SERIOUS responses to my thread in reference to our employee. I think that some of these comments actually have merit and we will look into them.

In reference to the patronage at the range we obviously want good people that are looking to obey the rules and regulations to come and enjoy themselves. We know that one of the employees has been somewhat of a probelm in the past.

In reference to the AK47 that was fired at the range that caused the police to be called reports were that it was fully automatic and that, yes, the person firing it was arrested.

I personally have shot fully automatic weapons and for the record think that they are extremely fun and are cool. That being said unless you are a complete MORON do not bring them to a public range. Also, I personally have no problem with AK's AR's M16's or any other weapon. What our club has to be concerned about is that the DOJ has been poking around public and private ranges for some time now and we do not need the heat. If you bring it, make sure you have your paperwork and make sure that it complies. As one of the last ranges in the area we have a responsibility for the next generation of shooters to keep the doors open.

Guys, none of ther members are making any money off this. They are doing it for the love of the sport and trying to do something positive for the shooting community. Those that have responded to this thread specifically relating to how they were treated by one employee, I understand and think you have a point.

For those of you that send me pictures of Knob Creek, please be aware that this range is in the PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF CALIFORNIA. Our laws are unfortunately more restrictive than elsewhere.

And for those of you who do not like my attitude, well, all I can say is that maybe you should look into getting more involved in the shooting sports. Perhaps you should do volunteer work for the NRA or for another range that you find more acceptable. Do something to help keep the ranges open and to allow others the chance to go shooting!

Some of you are already doing this. Others of you will continue to live in your parallel dream world with all of your nonsensical statements and not really make a difference where it counts by helping to keep the last few public ranges in California open. You will continue to live your marginal existence on the fringes the whole time not really getting involved and not really contributing anything to the cause in terms of time and money.

For those of you that are upset about your treatment, I get it. I hope that we can make changes that are acceptable. For those of you that just want to spout nonsense - go ahead. Please attach some really cool emoticons as I always like conversing with people with the emotional and mental capacity of a chunk of moldy cheese.

Thorsen
01-05-2008, 10:16 PM
Just to clarify, and no I'm not trying to be difficult, it sounds like you are saying that OLLs are acceptable as long as they are compliant. Is this an accurate interpretation of your post?

AngelDecoys
01-05-2008, 10:17 PM
wilit: I'll just reiterate what I've already said. I mentioned the full auto AK 47 (AK-kit) that resulted in 1 officer (no drawn pistol) coming to the club and removing said weapon from the premises. I was only correcting the innacurate posts before me.

I would be willing to bet that most clubs would do the same. Or you tell me what public range you know that allows random people to shoot full auto weapons?

Again, if the rifle is CA complaint, you can shoot it on our range. If not, we don't want it there. Many members don't like the club's policy, nor do I like the law banning assault rifles either. That is irrelevant as the club considers it a LIABILITY concern.

DB2: You can shoot an M14, or M1A at the club. I do regularly at matches.

Fjold and wilit: Both of you point out the issue with the employee at the club as the main complaint. That is true. Again, what do you and others expect a club to do with an employee who has been there for 10+ years? Simply fire him? Or try to work with an employee and correct an issue? Which is more fair?

AGAIN! As few if any complaints have never been filed by non-members how would the general club membership know there is a problem? Wave a magical wand? An employee who might be passionate is not necessarily a problem.

The President has only heard of a few complaints as of this morning (1/5/2008), and one from 4 months ago that has resulted in the lowering if his hours and a discussion.

Voicing it here is not even productive, (and there certainly are a lot of loud mouths online) but doesn’t correct the issue. Like a bunch of women talking and talking. Nor is it likely to change unless customers (NOT MEMBERS) actually stop being cowards and write letters, or file a complaint to the President.

Anyway, I do not have more time for this. Its silly.

philthy209
01-05-2008, 10:38 PM
I appreciate the SERIOUS responses to my thread in reference to our employee. I think that some of these comments actually have merit and we will look into them.

In reference to the patronage at the range we obviously want good people that are looking to obey the rules and regulations to come and enjoy themselves. We know that one of the employees has been somewhat of a probelm in the past.

In reference to the AK47 that was fired at the range that caused the police to be called reports were that it was fully automatic and that, yes, the person firing it was arrested.

I personally have shot fully automatic weapons and for the record think that they are extremely fun and are cool. That being said unless you are a complete MORON do not bring them to a public range. Also, I personally have no problem with AK's AR's M16's or any other weapon. What our club has to be concerned about is that the DOJ has been poking around public and private ranges for some time now and we do not need the heat. If you bring it, make sure you have your paperwork and make sure that it complies. As one of the last ranges in the area we have a responsibility for the next generation of shooters to keep the doors open.

Guys, none of ther members are making any money off this. They are doing it for the love of the sport and trying to do something positive for the shooting community. Those that have responded to this thread specifically relating to how they were treated by one employee, I understand and think you have a point.

For those of you that send me pictures of Knob Creek, please be aware that this range is in the PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF CALIFORNIA. Our laws are unfortunately more restrictive than elsewhere.

And for those of you who do not like my attitude, well, all I can say is that maybe you should look into getting more involved in the shooting sports. Perhaps you should do volunteer work for the NRA or for another range that you find more acceptable. Do something to help keep the ranges open and to allow others the chance to go shooting!

Some of you are already doing this. Others of you will continue to live in your parallel dream world with all of your nonsensical statements and not really make a difference where it counts by helping to keep the last few public ranges in California open. You will continue to live your marginal existence on the fringes the whole time not really getting involved and not really contributing anything to the cause in terms of time and money.

For those of you that are upset about your treatment, I get it. I hope that we can make changes that are acceptable. For those of you that just want to spout nonsense - go ahead. Please attach some really cool emoticons as I always like conversing with people with the emotional and mental capacity of a chunk of moldy cheese.

very well put. I'll be there next weekend.

I hear people say "paperwork", When i bought my OLL i got a recipt. Is this what they are talking about? Just seems like a bad move to bring a bunch of literature in order to educate LEO so they don't arrest you and send you away for 9 years:TFH:

tygerpaw
01-05-2008, 10:55 PM
My take on all this:

1. Most of us do not complain because a lot of people dont like confrontation. It is easier to discuss it here, which does not really solve the problem, but lets people vent. The Manteca members are correct that all of us should be more involved (myself most definitely included), and be willing to graciously address our concerns to the people who can do something about the problem.

2. I dont think any of us here seriously expect Manteca to allow full auto. 99% of the guys on this site are well acquainted with the laws and while we dont agree with them, we follow them because we dont want to go to jail or do damage to our cause.

3. It is certainly difficult correcting someone's behavior, especially when they've been there a long time. BUT, if the club is interested in growing, you will have to do something. I'm sure he means well, but people dont like to be bothered, especially when they know what they are doing for the most part.

There's my .02 worth.

Happy Shooting. "And......keep 'em in the 10-ring!"

wilit
01-05-2008, 11:43 PM
Fjold and wilit: Both of you point out the issue with the employee at the club as the main complaint. That is true. Again, what do you and others expect a club to do with an employee who has been there for 10+ years? Simply fire him? Or try to work with an employee and correct an issue? Which is more fair?

AGAIN! As few if any complaints have never been filed by non-members how would the general club membership know there is a problem? Wave a magical wand? An employee who might be passionate is not necessarily a problem.


I completely understand having some sort of loyalty to a 10+ year employee. But when you have numerous people all say the same thing about the same person and have the same exact experiences, there comes a point when loyalties should be re-examined. Where should your loyalties lie? With an employee or with the customers who keep your range open?

As for the complaints, I have told you I filed a complaint, and my buddy has filed at least two complaints, and as you so graciously pointed out they were probably filed in the circular bin. What more should I have done? I certainly don't want to see anyone loose their job, however, I also don't want to spend my hard earned money at a range that condones the behavior that is not conducive to a pleasurable shooting environment. And yes, Manteca Sportsman does condone that type of behavior by not curbing it. You and CGStaff have both said the employee in question has been talked to numerous times about his behavior yet he is allowed to continue to carry on unabated.

I appreciate the SERIOUS responses to my thread in reference to our employee. I think that some of these comments actually have merit and we will look into them.

Thanks. That's all everyone is asking for. Again, nobody wants to see someone loose their job, especially a fellow shooting enthusiast, but likewise, nobody wants to be harrased either.

CGstaff
01-06-2008, 8:48 AM
Thanks for all of the responses! I appreciate that people are upset - we will look into it.

Hopefully we can make changes that work for the shooting public.

AngelDecoys
01-06-2008, 9:52 AM
[QUOTE=wilit]I completely understand having some sort of loyalty to a 10+ year employee. But when you have numerous people all say the same thing about the same person and have the same exact experiences, there comes a point when loyalties should be re-examined. Where should your loyalties lie? With an employee or with the customers who keep your range open?

wilit: That's my point you don't seem to get. There have not been numerous complaints. And while YOU say that you and your buddy have filed a few complaints, there's nothing to show for it other than your word.

There's also the benefit of the doubt. Shouldn't the President consider any complaint? How does one know if your complaint isn't due to you possibly pointing the muzzle of your weapon the wrong way?

Not saying you did, just giving an example.

You know as well as I do, that there are 1000 things a person can do that can be considered unsafe EVEN if the person has been shooting their whole lives. Go to the club house and watch people shoot via the camera. People forget and do unsafe things all the time.

I'm sorry for those of you who drive extra distances to shoot rather than shoot at the Manteca Sportsmen. I'm also sorry you're not adult enough to deal with one individual, or write a letter or correct an issue, IF you really had a problem.

I'm also sorry you think we should be some sort of Walmart trying to make everyone happy. Not possible, and not our goal.

frigginchi
01-06-2008, 10:09 AM
Well, now you guys know that there is a problem. What you guys do from this point on will show your resolve in finding a happy medium. Hopefully this will be learning experience for both sides. Although I've never been to Manteca Sportsman I'd like to check it out someday. Can you provide some solutions to the complaint process. Many people are non confrontational, so do you guys have an e-mail where someone can voice their good/bad experiences? Thanks for having a place where people can enjoy shooting.

[QUOTE=wilit]I completely understand having some sort of loyalty to a 10+ year employee. But when you have numerous people all say the same thing about the same person and have the same exact experiences, there comes a point when loyalties should be re-examined. Where should your loyalties lie? With an employee or with the customers who keep your range open?

wilit: That's my point you don't seem to get. There have not been numerous complaints. And while YOU say that you and your buddy have filed a few complaints, there's nothing to show for it other than your word.

There's also the benefit of the doubt. Shouldn't the President consider any complaint? How does one know if your complaint isn't due to you possibly pointing the muzzle of your weapon the wrong way?

Not saying you did, just giving an example.

You know as well as I do, that there are 1000 things a person can do that can be considered unsafe EVEN if the person has been shooting their whole lives. Go to the club house and watch people shoot via the camera. People forget and do unsafe things all the time.

I'm sorry for those of you who drive extra distances to shoot rather than shoot at the Manteca Sportsmen. I'm also sorry you're not adult enough to deal with one individual, or write a letter or correct an issue, IF you really had a problem.

I'm also sorry you think we should be some sort of Walmart trying to make everyone happy. Not possible, and not our goal.

John Browning
01-06-2008, 10:24 AM
[QUOTE=wilit]I completely understand having some sort of loyalty to a 10+ year employee. But when you have numerous people all say the same thing about the same person and have the same exact experiences, there comes a point when loyalties should be re-examined. Where should your loyalties lie? With an employee or with the customers who keep your range open?

wilit: That's my point you don't seem to get. There have not been numerous complaints. And while YOU say that you and your buddy have filed a few complaints, there's nothing to show for it other than your word.

There's also the benefit of the doubt. Shouldn't the President consider any complaint? How does one know if your complaint isn't due to you possibly pointing the muzzle of your weapon the wrong way?

Not saying you did, just giving an example.

You know as well as I do, that there are 1000 things a person can do that can be considered unsafe EVEN if the person has been shooting their whole lives. Go to the club house and watch people shoot via the camera. People forget and do unsafe things all the time.

I'm sorry for those of you who drive extra distances to shoot rather than shoot at the Manteca Sportsmen. I'm also sorry you're not adult enough to deal with one individual, or write a letter or correct an issue, IF you really had a problem.

I'm also sorry you think we should be some sort of Walmart trying to make everyone happy. Not possible, and not our goal.

I have to say that your attitude is not one that is making me want to go shoot at Manteca anytime soon. There are numerous complaints right here, and hopefully someone in your organization is more open to listening to them.

Remember, it is those of us who spend money at your range that keep it open. If you don't aim to please us, someone else will, and that someone else will get my dollars. I'd have to say, of all the shooting crowds I would want to try and work with, Calguns would be right at the top. I'd bet many of us here spend more in range fees, classes and ammo a year than your $8/hr employee makes.

AngelDecoys
01-06-2008, 10:42 AM
Numerous complaints made here (possibly by 5-6 people) are irrelevant. As far as the President is concerned it could be 1 person with multiple email adresses making waves due to being kicked off the range.

Remember the 'guy' already had his hours cut back due to a complaint 4 months ago which seems to already emcompass the majority of the comments here. So, hasn't your problem already been dealt with?

While I don't care for the 'guy' up front myself, I keep suggesting the solution. I have already provided the web address IF you actually had a problem.

My attitude is fine, thanks scobun.

As an alternative: For those of you so resolute in your stance. How's this for a solution? WE close the range for non-members on the weekdays. (Without an RSO/paid front guy we would have to be closed during weekdays). To augment the fees that must be raised to pay the electrical and rent, we raise the price to $25 for those days open to the public. Open on the weekend. In my mind, everyone looses with that, especially the public/non-members.

philthy209
01-06-2008, 10:53 AM
I like CGstaff better.

762cavalier
01-06-2008, 10:59 AM
Numerous complaints here made possibly by 5-6 people are irrelevant.


BBBBZZZZZZZZZZTTTT

Wrong answer there buddy. ONE complaint should be relevant to a business, so obviously there is a problem with your attitude there if you think that.:rolleyes:

Remember for every one compaint that you hear about there at least 10 that you don't hear about. And those ten tell as many people as they can about there experience. Even you have proven this principal as you say you have only heard one complaint yet there are ten here that you didn't know about, and they are telling everyone they know.Not everyone cares to go through the drama of a complaint process especially when they think that it will be a waste of time (as this instance seems to be proving). You even prove this point when you say that members complaining about said employee does no good
Nor is it likely to change unless customers (NOT MEMBERS) actually stop being cowards and write letters, or file a complaint to the President.
Its a pretty sad state of affairs when a paying member has no say about his club:(

Maybe you guys should come up and visit Sac Valley shooting center to see how a member run club operates. Nice friendly people and a pleasant place to shoot.;)

CavTrooper
01-06-2008, 11:02 AM
Id consider closing the range to the general public all together. Make it a "members only" range, that way you dont have to deal with whiny, know-it-all morons:rolleyes:.
Do you think you would be able to keep your range open very long that way?

shark92651
01-06-2008, 11:11 AM
As far as the President is concerned it could be 1 person with multiple email adresses making waves due to being kicked off the range.

Angel, no offense but if anybody is here posing to be someone they are not it appears to be you. You show up on this forum and your very first post is in this thread, posing as a longtime "member" of Manteca Sportsman" and immediately start making excuses for them. You then show an intimate knowledge of how many complaints they have received, refer to the range as "WE", etc... You obviously work there or are the owner yourself so take these complaints to heart and improve your service, don't defend the rude and bad service and accuse the people here, many with hundreds or thousands of posts as being fake email addresses just to try to explain away the complaints. Sheez...

762cavalier
01-06-2008, 11:15 AM
AngelDecoys- You should also take a que from CGstaff on the better way to handle a complaint about your organization instead of being confrontational. Calling people cowards and dismissing people's complaints as irrelevant gets you nowhere.

Maybe you are really the guy at the front desk that everyone is complaining about.;);)

jandmtv
01-06-2008, 11:24 AM
wow, i cant belive this thread is still going....
you've got to love a vendor/business owner that jumps on the forums and defends himself/his business just because it would take too much effort to clean up his/his employees act!

AngelDecoys
01-06-2008, 11:37 AM
Sorry. I don't generally even post on blogs. It is in large part not really productive for my time. I've only posted here to corect the incorrect coments I've found here.

You're wasting your anger on me. I'm not trying to defend the guy, only suggest that you're comments are directed in the wrong place.

CGStaff, no doubt will tell you what you want to hear. He's a good guy, however, that's just his way.

I'm only being honest with both my take on it, and how the club views it. Most on the board are retired, most are cowboy action shooters (SASS), and realize that without a person up front who has the certificates/training, we would not be open during the week.

At $5000/month in revenue, missing a few disgruntled people at $15 each is not a big loss.

Like yourself, I can only argue so much. At least my arguments are directed towards the board where it is more than venting.

762cavalier
01-06-2008, 11:43 AM
I'm not trying to defend the guy, only suggest that you're comments are directed in the wrong place. Well if directing comments to a "MEMBER" of the organization is the wrong place maybe there is something wrong with the organization.:rolleyes:
realize that without a person up front who has the certificates/training, we would not be open during the week. Sounds like you have just elevated this person to "indispensable" status. No one who damages your business image should be in that position.

At $5000/month in revenue, missing a few disgruntled people at $15 each is not a big loss.
And that is the worst business statement yet. You don't even know how much business revenue you have lost because of those "few" disgruntled people spreading the word like they are here. If you lose one person a day because they are disgruntled you have just lost about 10% of your business. Not to mention the other things they may buy while they are there. You should be seeking to grow, not shrugging your shoulders and saying "eh no big loss"

jandmtv
01-06-2008, 11:51 AM
.

At $5000/month in revenue, missing a few disgruntled people at $15 each is not a big loss.


well thats a *****y thing to say! good way of loosing more business that the few you think you will loose, word of mouth travels very far! and even worse, forum posts like this will be around for a long long time for your future customers, or shall i say NON-Customers to see.

Ford8N
01-06-2008, 11:59 AM
What our club has to be concerned about is that the DOJ has been poking around public and private ranges for some time now and we do not need the heat. If you bring it, make sure you have your paperwork and make sure that it complies.




This is sorta off topic to the pissing contest going on, so forgive me.

Please, please expand and give all the details to this statement that the DOJ is "poking around" shooting ranges. Post everything you know as fact or start a new thread.

Thx
Ford

AngelDecoys
01-06-2008, 12:04 PM
762cavalier: I'm only a member. Not on the board. One can only do so much. I go there to shoot, and to help where I can.

I share the sentiment with regards to the club growing and how to do it. Unfortunately, like most organizations volunteer driven, 5% do 95% of the work. We don't even have the volunteers to get basic work completed.

We do what we can.

762cavalier
01-06-2008, 12:14 PM
I'm not trying to rag on you or your organization really. I understand the volunteer principal of 5/95. I get the same response in my Boy Scout troop. Merely suggesting that instead of defending the employee, maybe point this thread to the attention of the board members so they may see that many more people are dissatisfied with Manteca Sportsmen than they realize;)

DB2
01-06-2008, 12:16 PM
AngelDecoys,

Since you area member out there, what is the policy on OLLs? ARs, AKs, FALs, Uzis, any thing else that can be had offlist. All California compliant non registered centerfire rifles! Can they be shot there with no drama. What about a 1919 or any other smaller(not 50 cal) caliber belt fed?

This would be helpfull info on the range. Is it OLL friendly? I would call out there and ask, but I would probably not get what I want to know. There are a few ranges in Bay Area that are OLL friendly and they benefit from it. Getogethers are held there and good things are spoken about them.


Could there be a Calgunner meet there without the "members" hair catching on fire. This is a serious question and would like to know the answer for future reference.

wilit
01-06-2008, 12:27 PM
Thanks for all of the responses! I appreciate that people are upset - we will look into it.

Hopefully we can make changes that work for the shooting public.

That's all that anyone here is asking. We're not out for blood to hang a 10+ year employee, we just would like the condescending attitude to be curbed.

Just FYI, there was a thread a few months ago that detailed some other experiences at Manteca Sportsman. You can read those here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=44104&highlight=manteca&page=2 It starts at about post #18.

Thorsen
01-06-2008, 12:28 PM
AngelDecoys,

Since you area member out there, what is the policy on OLLs? ARs, AKs, FALs, Uzis, any thing else that can be had offlist. All California compliant non registered centerfire rifles! Can they be shot there with no drama. What about a 1919 or any other smaller(not 50 cal) caliber belt fed?

This would be helpfull info on the range. Is it OLL friendly? I would call out there and ask, but I would probably not get what I want to know. There are a few ranges in Bay Area that are OLL friendly and they benefit from it. Getogethers are held there and good things are spoken about them.


Could there be a Calgunner meet there without the "members" hair catching on fire. This is a serious question and would like to know the answer for future reference.

Actually I pm'd him about a half an hour ago and he sent me a response saying that taking anything that is California legal, including OLLs, should not be a problem. From his response it sounds like he has OLLs himself and shoots them there.

Hope this helps.

AngelDecoys
01-06-2008, 12:37 PM
DB2. As far as I know, if its CA compliant, its ok to shoot at the Manteca Sportsmen. Never seen anything exotic at MS, but do enjoy shooting AR's, AK's, and Uzi's at Front Sight.

I doubt anyone would ask you about it at MS. Even so, I carry a print out of the DOJ letters for my AR. With the stock I have on it, it is compliant in CA. never hurts when one comes accross a zealous, off-duty police officer.

We would be happy to have Calgunner out there for a meet. We have a big area for camping and RV's. We've had the Boy Scouts, JROTC, Sea Cadets, Civil War re-enactors, and high school groups out there regularly already.

Calhunter380
01-06-2008, 12:48 PM
At $5000/month in revenue, missing a few disgruntled people at $15 each is not a big loss.


Uh, let's see, me, my wife, my hunting and shooting buddies, my kids, it adds up, especially when I shoot at least a few times a month. Plus people that I have talked to and have had similar experiences, plus people I personally have warned about the "front desk guy's" arrogance. I haven't been there in a couple years probably so maybe his attitude has changed but why would I go there and be scrutinized on my shooting posture and grip when I'm hitting nice groups at 25 yards and ragged holes at ten?

I also like to shoot large caliber pistols, ie .460 S&W, Scoped 44 Mag, 357mag and 25 yards isn't quite enough. I've talked to the front desk guy about the 100yd range and he wanted something like, what did he say, "scientific ballistic proof that justifies the use of the pistol at 100yds." C'mon it's a 460 S&W, what more proof do you want? I could have shown him the box of ammo but I don't think in his mind that would have been enough. I don't have a problem not shooting my pistols at the 100yd range though, I just go somewhere else. :D

AngelDecoys
01-06-2008, 1:02 PM
Sorry. Every club has policies. Every club has rules not everyone agrees with or likes. Plenty of places to go if you have a specific need. Or help change a place by becoming part of the solution.

If you were a member (1 membership at $50/year), your whole family could shoot for free - As many times as you like for 365 days a year.

Or go to the woods if you must allow 1 guy to dictate your good times.

Calhunter380
01-06-2008, 3:12 PM
Uh yeah, $50. More like $150, actually I'm thinking he told me $175, I was also told that it is prorated so if you join halfway through the year or whatever then it is discounted. I don't have anything against any of the rules or regs. I mean you got to do what you have to do to keep the place open and insured or whatever.
I don't want to become a member anyways. Especially somewhere I can't shoot how I want to shoot. I am a responsible shooter, always making sure to stay behind the lines and on the plate, muzzle in a saf dir. etc. I'm not some gun crazy yokel wanting to shoot up the countryside, but why pay $15 and have to watch my shots (3 second rule), and shoot my large caliber pistols at 25yds or less (which is a waste of ammo), and have to deal with a person who I find annoying at best. I love the place, to be honest, and the people and shooters there for the most part are courteous, helpful, and responsible shooters. I think this thread has made a mountain out of a molehill but, as has been stated before, change has to be made if Manteca wants to keep new members and shooters coming. I don't want anyone to lose their job either, the guy is actually a nice guy, but he needs to be a little more people friendly. Some people don't know how to shoot, some do. Some have been shooting for years and think they are the Buffalo bill of the range but when "front desk guy", Steve?, comes around and tries to give old buffalo bill a shooting lesson I gaurantee ol' bill is gonna think "front desk guy" is a jerk and doesn't know what he's talking about, thus keepng B. Bill from coming back or bringing more people to show the place off to. I understand people can be passionate about their job. especially shooting sports, but there is a fine line between passion and wanting to help people and arrogance and wanting to point out to people their faults. It's emabarrassing when you are standing there on the firing line and shooting fine and all proud of yourself and then he comes out in front of everybody to give you a "What you are doing wrong...." speech. I've seen people pack up their stuff and leave on more than one occasion after one of his "lessons", with more boxes of ammo on the table to shoot. I don't think they are coming back. I'm sure I will end up back there some day wanting to sight in a rifle or something I just hope I have a better experience than I have had in the past. I do miss them hotdogs though :D

AngelDecoys
01-06-2008, 4:16 PM
Yup, it might be $175 for the 1st year. You might ask if that could be lowered for the first year if you put in some hours before signing a membership. Was for me when I joined initially.

Don't think one will ever be allowed to shoot a pistol on the rifle range. I'm sure unsupervised clubs allow it. Unlikely at MS for liability reasons (concern over rounds going over the berm).

You can do it at other clubs without supervision. At least for now while they are still open. 1 accident = Bye, Bye - Another closing of a range.

Same issues come up when a 3-gun venue is discussed. Or holster work for that matter. Both venues I'd like to run at the Manteca Sportsmen.

Its all driven by liability. The 'front guy' has to be the enforcer of those rules some do not like. As it has been discussed to death on this thread, he has been spoken to about his 'delivery.' Are you willing to get RSO, and NRA instructor certified at your own expense for an $8/hour job?

One must remember that the alternative is to have a club only open for the public and non-members on the weekend. Lincoln rifle club (among others) in CA have already gone to that format.

Kids shoot was Friday. High power match was this morning. Trap ($2.50) is tomorrow night. Pistol Fun shoot is on the 13th. Come on out.

scootergmc
01-06-2008, 5:18 PM
philthy209. If the rifle is CA compliant, you can shoot it there without an issue. As my rifle was made/pruchased years ago, I had the choice of either shooting it only out of state (storing it here without the pistol grip to be complaint), or putting on the alternative stock. If the rifle is complaint you can shoot it at the Manteca Sportsmen. Even if you go someplace else, don't be a test case for the law (mandatory 9 years in jail).

Where did you get this mandatory nine years jail idea? :confused:

AngelDecoys
01-06-2008, 8:08 PM
scootergmc: Well, in the past it was up to each county on how they were going to enforce the law.

Good old Moonbeam (Jerry Brown) is attorney general and wants to leave his mark before running for something else. He's asked his attorneys (and law enforcement) to enforce the assault weapons ban. Been quiet about it, huh!

So if one is seen at a range, serial#'s will be run. If serving a warrant, coming into a home for whatever reason, or anything else and one is found, the law is to be enforced to its full extent (no plea bargaining).

Not like its a big surprise. When an FFL retires, the paperwork goes to the DOJ. Whenever an FFL gets audited, the ATF, or DOJ gets a copy of the paperwork. Not like they don't know who possesses them anyway.

The question of course is if a person is stupid enough to be a test case. And whether such a person thinks the consequence is only confiscation.

Civil disobedience aside, the consequence is more than a fine. It does come with a jail sentence.

Which of course, is why many people keep their rifle compliant. Either they registered it, or removed the pistol grip (while in CA), or bought an alternative stock to remain compliant.

My $ .02 on that though not really relavent to this thread.

philthy209
01-06-2008, 8:15 PM
You keep saying california compliant stock.

An OLL can be configured legally without touching the stock. Maybe you should re-visit the law and utilize the search button on this forum.

atavuss
01-06-2008, 8:17 PM
the last time I was out at MS the RO gave me a hard time saying that I was a danger to everyone's hearing at the range because I was firing a Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull. he was upset because his electronic muffs did not stop the noise from the Ruger Alaskan (I wear earplugs AND ear muffs). there was another club member there firing either a .460 or .500 pistol with hot loads although he did not have a 2.5" barrel on his handgun like the Alaskan has and nothing was said to this member as far as I know. I have not gone back since then. don't know if I will go back either. am I at fault for shooting a high power snub nosed revolver? or was the RO a bit too snippy?

philthy209
01-06-2008, 8:25 PM
the last time I was out at MS the RO gave me a hard time saying that I was a danger to everyone's hearing at the range because I was firing a Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull. he was upset because his electronic muffs did not stop the noise from the Ruger Alaskan (I wear earplugs AND ear muffs). there was another club member there firing either a .460 or .500 pistol with hot loads although he did not have a 2.5" barrel on his handgun like the Alaskan has and nothing was said to this member as far as I know. I have not gone back since then. don't know if I will go back either. am I at fault for shooting a high power snub nosed revolver? or was the RO a bit too snippy?

That guy shoots that big bastard every weekend. Too me he is my only complaint because he lays all his guns out taking up half the pistol range which has limited space as it is.

I happen to like the old guy in front as i'm a younger guy whos still fresh to the sport and could use the face time. That said he has eatin up alot of shootin daylight with his rants but hes not as bad as people have been making him out to be.I hope he gets his hours back after a few suggestions for change.:)

scootergmc
01-06-2008, 8:38 PM
scootergmc: Well, in the past it was up to each county on how they were going to enforce the law.

Good old Moonbeam (Jerry Brown) is attorney general and wants to leave his mark before running for something else. He's asked his attorneys (and law enforcement) to enforce the assault weapons ban. Been quiet about it, huh!

So if one is seen at a range, serial#'s will be run. If serving a warrant, coming into a home for whatever reason, or anything else and one is found, the law is to be enforced to its full extent (no plea bargaining).

Not like its a big surprise. When an FFL retires, the paperwork goes to the DOJ. Whenever an FFL gets audited, the ATF, or DOJ gets a copy of the paperwork. Not like they don't know who possesses them anyway.

The question of course is if a person is stupid enough to be a test case. And whether such a person thinks the consequence is only confiscation.

Civil disobedience aside, the consequence is more than a fine. It does come with a jail sentence.

Which of course, is why many people keep their rifle compliant. Either they registered it, or removed the pistol grip (while in CA), or bought an alternative stock to remain compliant.

My $ .02 on that though not really relavent to this thread.

I sent you a PM in reply to yours which debunks your 9 year theory. Anyone can read the penal code and see what AW possession is worth. It is still up to a DA to decide how to prosecute AW cases. Go ahead and ask BWO about being a test case for the AW law.

scootergmc
01-06-2008, 8:39 PM
the last time I was out at MS the RO gave me a hard time saying that I was a danger to everyone's hearing at the range because I was firing a Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull. he was upset because his electronic muffs did not stop the noise from the Ruger Alaskan (I wear earplugs AND ear muffs). there was another club member there firing either a .460 or .500 pistol with hot loads although he did not have a 2.5" barrel on his handgun like the Alaskan has and nothing was said to this member as far as I know. I have not gone back since then. don't know if I will go back either. am I at fault for shooting a high power snub nosed revolver? or was the RO a bit too snippy?

Bless you, fellow Alaskan owner. Fire that baby all day and night. :D

CGstaff
01-06-2008, 8:48 PM
I think we have beaten the "guy at the front desk" debate to death.

That being said, a lot of people on this blog have stated that an AR or an AK can be built with a detachable magazine and still be California compliant.

Now, I have read the law. But here is my question: Other than the lower reciever with the magazine well welded over so that it only can accept ten rounds, are any of these other solutions APPROVED by the DOJ?

That is, I know arguments can be made based upon the law and what constitutes a pistol grip and or a stock, but do any of these solutions have DOJ approval as in a WRITTEN LETTER FROM THE DOJ SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING THE MODIFICATION IN QUESTION?

The only reason I ask this is that I am extremelly paranoid when it comes to any sort of proposed "solution" unless it comes to me in writing AS APPROVED from the State of California.

So - if anyone can post a link to a website that can show me a letter from the DOJ approving these "solutions" I would appreciate it. I might just pick one of these bad boys up if I can do it without without incurring a class three felony!

Thanks!

jandmtv
01-06-2008, 8:50 PM
I think we have beaten the "guy at the front desk" debate to death.

That being said, a lot of people on this blog have stated that an AR or an AK can be built with a detachable magazine and still be California compliant.

Now, I have read the law. But here is my question: Other than the lower reciever with the magazine well welded over so that it only can accept ten rounds, are any of these other solutions APPROVED by the DOJ?

That is, I know arguments can be made based upon the law and what constitutes a pistol grip and or a stock, but do any of these solutions have DOJ approval as in a WRITTEN LETTER FROM THE DOJ SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING THE MODIFICATION IN QUESTION?

The only reason I ask this is that I am extremelly paranoid when it comes to any sort of proposed "solution" unless it comes to me in writing AS APPROVED from the State of California.

So - if anyone can post a link to a website that can show me a letter from the DOJ approving these "solutions" I would appreciate it. I might just pick one of these bad boys up if I can do it without without incurring a class three felony!

Thanks!


lol, good luck there buddy! i guess your range will not be oll friendly after all, that is if you guys are going to demand a doj approval letter.

scootergmc
01-06-2008, 8:59 PM
So - if anyone can post a link to a website that can show me a letter from the DOJ approving these "solutions" I would appreciate it. I might just pick one of these bad boys up if I can do it without without incurring a class three felony!

Thanks!

What is this "class three" felony you speak of? California doesn't classify felonies.... :rolleyes:

And why do you have to have a letter saying they're approved? Show us something that says they're not approved!!!

CavTrooper
01-06-2008, 9:03 PM
That is, I know arguments can be made based upon the law .....

...........but do any of these solutions have DOJ approval

LOL. I found this amusing.

"The law says its legal, but does the DOJ?"

Common sense strikes again.:rolleyes:

AngelDecoys
01-06-2008, 9:08 PM
CGstaff: Check with our mutual buddy MG. He has one 'said letter' attached to his closet/gun safe. He, like myself keep a laminated letter along with the rifle and alternative stock. Link below goes to CA compliant rifle.

See link below.
http://www.californiarifles.com/

I'm only suggesting the letter as zealous off-duty officers may question you about the rifle. Why bring trouble onto yourself? Again, if it is CA legal, you can shoot it at the Manteca Sportsmen.

anothergunnut
01-06-2008, 9:10 PM
So - if anyone can post a link to a website that can show me a letter from the DOJ approving these "solutions" I would appreciate it. I might just pick one of these bad boys up if I can do it without without incurring a class three felony!

Thanks!

Can you post a website from the DOJ that says a traditional bolt action rifle is legal? Since you can't, that makes them illegal and they should not be at MSI.

On the other hand, bullet button vendors have submitted samples to the DOJ who have not posted that they are illegal. The DOJ has posted that OLLs were "soon to be banned" but thanks to BWiese and others, they had to back down. The DOJ silence on the legality of the bullet button is an admission that they are legal since they would not hesitate to issue a notice saying they were illegal.

Also, there is a letter floating around that says the FALs with fixed mags are legal.

CGstaff
01-06-2008, 9:21 PM
OK.

Did some research. It looks like you could have legal argument for your position.

But what I also noticed about some of the websites that listed these OLL lower recievers and builds was that they were being offered for sale, but that the "user assumes all risk and is untimately legally responsible."

So for all of you willing to be a "test case", god bless you! I am just too old and too paranoid to take a chance like that! I will continue to travel to Frontsite and the Mustang range to shoot some of the more exotic guns rather than take a chance that I could "catch a case" and spend the next several years of my life in jail.

On another note, you may want to remember that the DOJ and other law enforcement agencies can and sometimes do get warrants to check web logs based upon what they percieve to be illegal behavior. Just one judge that agrees with their opinion and the next thing you know, tracking down people through their email addresses.

It's like a really cool game of connect the dots - you post a blog about your "stripped lower" or your "modified OLL". Next thing you know you get that no knock warrant served on you at three o' clock in the morning.

All I am saying is try to practice a little more situational awareness.

God Bless!

scootergmc
01-06-2008, 9:23 PM
You act like they haven't been on to Calguns at all. Then again, you have been here all of a couple days. You have much to learn, grasshopper.

wilit
01-06-2008, 9:29 PM
CGStaff, since you're a member of MS, I would assume you live in San Joaquin county? You might want to read the article linked in the following thread for San Joaquin county.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=64245

There has also been a DOJ raid on a Stanislaus County gun store, and the charges ended up being dropped because the OLL rifles they confiscated were legal.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=67750

Also be sure to read up on our beloved BlackwaterOps case in LA County.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=79110

These guns ARE LEGAL. Your government who no longer fears you is trying to keep you in the dark.

AngelDecoys
01-07-2008, 7:03 AM
wilit. I am aware of the DOJ raid in Stanislaus County. I had the pleasure of taking a class at Front Sight with one of the owners. That situation only highlights the idea to keep a letter with the rifle over confiscation, and/or jail while you defend yourself. (also recommended on this site)

Yes, you are correct, the stripped lowers are legal. However, if you build the rifle incorrectly, eg 'a pistol grip AND detachable magazine' (as is noted in various places on this site), said rifle becomes illegal.

See. http://calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm

I'll remain compliant, thank you. If its legal in CA to shoot, it is welcome at the Manteca Sportsmen. If not, sorry, the board doesn't want the scrutiny. That is reasonable.

jcardona1
01-07-2008, 11:12 PM
wilit. I am aware of the DOJ raid in Stanislaus County. I had the pleasure of taking a class at Front Sight with one of the owners. That situation only highlights the idea to keep a letter with the rifle over confiscation, and/or jail while you defend yourself. (also recommended on this site)

Yes, you are correct, the stripped lowers are legal. However, if you build the rifle incorrectly, eg 'a pistol grip AND detachable magazine' (as is noted in various places on this site), said rifle becomes illegal.

See. http://calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm

I'll remain compliant, thank you. If its legal in CA to shoot, it is welcome at the Manteca Sportsmen. If not, sorry, the board doesn't want the scrutiny. That is reasonable.


So is it safe to say, that if I were to show up at Manteca w/ an OLL, Bullet Button, and evil features galore, I'd be allowed to shoot no problems?

bwiese
01-07-2008, 11:36 PM
That being said, a lot of people on this blog have stated that an AR or an AK can be built with a detachable magazine and still be California compliant.

Now, I have read the law. But here is my question: Other than the lower reciever with the magazine well welded over so that it only can accept ten rounds, are any of these other solutions APPROVED by the DOJ?

I am one of the 'originals' who stirred the pot in getting off-list rifles going in CA. You referenced my FAQ - which is still correct although things can be a bit more aggressive now: that was written in the hyper-overcautious days in Jan 2006 when we didn't want any mistakes or 'conspiracy to build an AW' charges.

We know DOJ approval is somewhat irrelevant. There is no legal requirement to be DOJ approved, only a legal requirement to comply with the law. In fact, the DOJ has approved several illegal items due to their technical and legal incompetence - Walther P22s, Evan's GB Sales 'listed" rifles, and the doubtful Vulcans. (It seems many Vulcan 'approved' fixed mag AR receivers can have the mags manhandled out by hand without a too.)

The DOJ is not giving out approval letters because the Bureau of Firearms itself is driven by the Brady Campaign (the Deputy AG is, in effect, working for them) so they don't want to sanction any of our activities. BTW, this is way below the radar of the AG Jerry Brown, so he should not get blame. Eventually some of this stuff will bubble upward into his office in the next several months and he will have to deal with it appropriately.

A semiauto centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine is NOT a 12276.1PC-defined AW if it has no 'evil features' specified in 12276.1; these features are further defined in regulatory code 11 CCR 5469, and these are the only definitions that are applicable.

The 'MonsterMan' grips are legally not pistol grips because they are not described by the regulatory definition of 'pistol grip...' in 11 CCR 5469(d). Period.

The U15 stock by California Rifles is not a thumbhole stock by regulatory definition, nor does it offer a pistol grip by regulatory definition. Period.

Fixed-mag rifles have no legal requirement to have the mag welded or epoxied in. The fact that DOJ approved Vulcan just meant that approval was held to a higher standard than the actual law. The regulatory definition in 11 CCR 5469(a) merely requires a tool for detachment.

The DS Arms Cali-FAL fixed-mag FAL was originally approved by Deputy AG Nancy Palmieri (in cooperation with Iggy Chinn) and did not have a welded magazine. The Barrett M82CA 50BMG rifle (before 50BMGs were separatly banned) was approved with a screwed-down, swing-down magazine and was not considered an AW. Neither of these fixed magazines were 'permanently attached'.

The DOJ tried to redefine 'detachable magazine' but realized they couldn't and did not submit the regulation for adoption. If they had, it would have made every SKS an "SKS with detachable magazine" too :)



That is, I know arguments can be made based upon the law and what constitutes a pistol grip and or a stock, but do any of these solutions have DOJ approval as in a WRITTEN LETTER FROM THE DOJ SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING THE MODIFICATION IN QUESTION?

That's what legal arguments are supposed to be made from: the law. Not grab-it-out-of-the-air opinions of antigunners ensconced in a regulatory agency, working for the Bradys - and technically incompetent, to boot.

This 'approval' stuff will not happen because the DOJ is not approving ANYTHING anymore since they know we're so active. It's already been tried. If you'd been tuned in in the last 2 years, you'd know.

In fact, the DOJ is so mum because the Deputy AG Alison Merrilees got in trouble with AG Bill Lockyer for generating so much paperwork helping support our positions in 2005. (Frankly, I think that's why she didn't get picked up to go over to Treasurer's office.)

You are de facto working for the Bradys if you want to extend the law beyond what the actual law says or help grant an agency more powers than what they actually legally have.

100,000 off-list rifle owners are going to hundreds of other ranges besides yours - Chabot, Los Altos Rod & Gun, Coyote Pt (a Sheriff's dept operated range), Metcalf Range in San Jose, etc. If the DOJ wanted to arrest anyone they would have gone after some of the original Calgunner OLL folks at any of the Calguns Shoot-n-BBQs at Chabot.

You must be getting your legal advice from "the duck hunters" (those guys hunting with John Kerry last election).

I get really tired of incompetency & political naivete at gunshops & gun ranges. I suspect there's more accurate legal knowledge of CA gun laws here on Calguns than behind the counters of 70% of CA's gun shops. Time and Calguns participation may help cure that.

Matt C
01-07-2008, 11:44 PM
My question to all of you - when was the last time that you volunteered at a range? Went to a Friends of the NRA dinner? Helped at an NRA event? If you have done these things then I thank you! I have spent countless hours volunteering for the cause and then I get to check this message board and what I see are posts that indicate "we should go there to raise a little .... awareness." Do us all a favor. Go to the Manteca Sportsman, pick up a membership application, join, pay your dues and then VOLUNTEER!

Are you seriously questioning the people on this board about what they have done to fight for RKBA in California? You think you are God's gift to firearm owners because you work at a range? Get real.

When I first saw the complaint I was likely as not to ignore it, every range has an RO or two that have a bit of a complex. Whatever. About three pages in I was thinking that Angel was making things worse for the range, but it was just one guy saying his piece so whatever. Now you have questioned our commitments and our judgment. You won't see me at your range. But I'm you can can afford to lose the business right?:mad:

AngelDecoys
01-08-2008, 12:19 PM
Well I think this thread really goes nowhere so let’s sum it up. Some people are just unhappy that they can’t shoot whatever they want anyplace they go, and however they want. It is an unreasonable expectation, but you’re free to vent.

Range masters
DB2: Tracy - Doesn’t like a range where the RM actually checks weapons to see if they are compliant at a CA range. I’m not going to defend the point as, liability issues aside, I tend to agree that the club should not enforce laws. I too do not care for some of the members. I can’t say I’ve ever belonged to a gun club where someone wasn’t part of the ‘fringe’ or an idiot.

LAK Supply - Also doesn’t like the RM for his impromptu lessons. Like many, I sometimes simlply tell the RM to GO AWAY. It works.

CRTguns - I think we discussed this at a practical rifle course at Front Sight (if you’re the same person?) If you recall correctly, the off duty Ripon PD had poor muzzle control. Not that a pistol should be on the rifle range anyway, but with only moments between safety and an accident, shouldn’t we all want a RM to jump in?

Front guy.
midvalleyshooter - Doesn’t like the front guy for enforcing the use of a Rifle’s 10 round limit on the pistol range. Nor does he like not being able to use the 'Member’s only' 50 yard (.22 only) range with his .223. (There’s no berm behind that range).

Phily209 - Is correct in that if you are a familiar face, it is more likely someone will not question you. Regularity builds trust

Thorsen, Calhunter380, and a few others - Don’t like lessons from the ‘front guy.’ I don’t either. Most people appreciate them.

SkyMag68, and Phily209 - Like most costomers, You saw, and spoke with the same old guy at the front desk. Most people like the guy and are fine with him.

wilit - Mentions complaints that quite frankly have already been dealt with months ago, yet that doesn’t seem to be enough.

In General
One of the things I find the most ironic in the whole thread here is how quick to judgment many of you are. Many think that every RM they come in contact with should cater to them, even if they do something questionable. Can any of you honestly say you haven’t been to a range and not seen someone who is an accident waiting to happen?

Let’s see, the RM puts 2500 free hours in/year. The RM serves on the FNRA committee raising $1000's/year for our sport, and trains hundreds of women each year how to shoot. (Not an exaggeration). Not saying you don’t contribute, but the guy is an asset to preserving the shooting sports.

The ‘front guy’ has been there for years, and has already been spoken too about his impromptu lessons, and his ‘delivery’ when someone has poor muzzle control or doesn’t follow the very rules you read and sign when you come on the property. I got it, you don’t like his delivery. Sometimes in a split second between accident and safety, how something comes out might not sooth your ego. Yet some of you want/demand more. Quite frankly a majority of the people who visit the range, like the guy.

Anyway, hope to see you on the range. Hope you can help contribute to preserving the shooting sports by being active in whatever club you visit, and belong to.

Soldier415
01-08-2008, 12:47 PM
Anyway, hope to see you on the range.

Due to your attitude and conduct on this board, you will never see me at yours. But as Blackwater said, you can afford to lose our business, we are just a bunch of whacky gun nut extremists with crazy ideas about legality of weapons (listening to the law as opposed to the BOF).

If you ever want to see how a range is run properly, with friendly, knowledgable and courteous staff, come by Bullseye in Nor Cal.

Linh
01-08-2008, 1:48 PM
Originally Posted by AngelDecoys

At $5000/month in revenue, missing a few disgruntled people at $15 each is not a big loss.

Are you for real? My advice to you don't go into business. I don't know about cost of living in your area but $5000 in revenue a month is nothing. You are right a few disgruntled people at $15 is not a big loss but how many more people will slowly leave??? The DOJ is the least of your worries when one day no one shows up to your range. (BTW NO ONE ever said anything about shooting anything illegal) If owning an OLL california rifle is a crime then the DOJ knows exactly where all the gun stores selling them plus the gun shows so why haven't they done anything?


In General
One of the things I find the most ironic in the whole thread here is how quick to judgment many of you are.

I don't even live in the area so it doesn't matter but since I'm not on any side. I kept up with this thread cause it was interesting and though the people here were exgerating as well but it's apparrently true.

1. this is a forum, not a blog. (Where people come together online)

2. If you look on the top right of each messenge you will see a join date so you're saying a few people maybe one person opened 5 or 6 accounts and posted a few hundreds post on each account and waited for 6 months to a year and then finally decide to take it out on your shooting range???

3. For every one person that complain there are hundreds or more (maybe even thousands) that just leave without complaining (This is pretty common in the business world) Most to all business take one complain seriously because there are lots of other that don't but hey it's only $15 right so it's not a big deal.

4. NO ONE ever said anything or want to shoot anything that is illegal. They just wanted to shoot a california legal OLL but if your shooting range does not allow then it's fine.

5. Your shooting range has the right to do whatever you want.

SOLUTION to all of this is just have a policy put together and check weapons b4 they hit the range. As for that employee well if people don't like him then they'll just have to go somewhere else that's what I do when I go eat somewhere and the place have terrible customer service why complain (I'm not the one losing customers)

AngelDecoys
01-08-2008, 2:19 PM
Linh,

True, 5k/month isn't much. If people are going to be unsafe, or not follow the rules at the club, the primary concern will then become how to stay open AND remain safe.

If its CA legal, they can bring it and shoot it there.

Bullseye in Nor Cal, Farmington, apparently the Sacramento Shooting Center, and a few other places are apparently great options if one wants to shoot whatever, do whatever one likes at a range without oversight. I guess I suggest if you like to shoot over the berm, or whatever else, go there. My guess is, they would stop you there as well.

Some call my attitude here bad, and if keeping the unsafe out makes me bad, so be it. They can concentrate on closing other places.

Soldier415
01-08-2008, 2:23 PM
Bullseye in Nor Cal, Farmington, apparently the Sacramento Shooting Center, and a few other places are great options if one wants to shoot whatever, do whatever one likes at a range.



Cant speak for the other ranges, but Bullseye is in no way a shoot whatever/do whatever type of range.

Unlike yours, staff give articulate reasons why certain weapons are not allowed, instead of FUD that has no base in the real world.

As for do whatever, hardly. :rolleyes:

Two Shots
01-08-2008, 2:25 PM
I've shot thier since the 80's and never had a bad experiance and as far as the RM goes he did give my kid a quick lesson on his stance Which helped improve his shooting. I've talked with the RM each time I go there and no problem most of the time he'll leave the range to us if there is only a few shooters. The only time he has shot any of my weapons was when I offered him to try my new revolver. I was trap shooting and the guys there were great, helpful with the two teens i had with me learning to shoot trap. Infact one of the members was leaving my sons friend use his trap gun. So I have not seen anything bad and I've shot there when others had AR's on the range shooting and not one question as to "is it legal". Maybe thier policy has changed? i know they watch on cctv for safety violations and tape for insurance and vandalism. The only drawbacks I've found is the limited range of 100 yards and the No rapid fire, I like to practice double tapping.

ViPER395
01-08-2008, 2:36 PM
I'm with Linh.

I'm not in the area either, and I don't have a judgement one way or another.

I do know that i've been lurking this forum for not more than two years and I have learned more here than I ever could have from any pain in th @ss rangemaster. Those are why i've never gone to a range. I don't want anyone hassling me about how I shoot. I'm very responsible.

Next thing. The attitude Angel and CG have shown make me glad they run a club. They definately would not be doing good if they didn't have a pool of revenue from dedicated paying members.

Now I don't go to ranges or anything, and maybe I will sometime. Maybe not. But I will tell you something about what Soldier415 said above. I've checked out websites and read alot of threads about other ranges all over California. I have to say that Bullseye Range looks like the coolest place in the shooting world within driving distance. If I decide to go to a range sometime for 'couple' lessons, I would definately plan a day trip with the woman to Bullseye. Mind you it is well over 100 miles one way from my home. & I hope the people there are as helpful as i've read and maybe even get to shake hands with Soldier415.

philthy209
01-08-2008, 3:24 PM
People should check the range out for themselves. If its Bad you lost 15 bucks if it's good you found a place to shoot.

I'm surprised this thread is still going, i think that has more to do with Angel and CG's diplomacy rather than the range itself.;)

If the entire internet began bashing the range you were a member of, you might not be so polite either.

my 2 pennys.

Matt C
01-08-2008, 3:27 PM
People should check the range out for themselves. If its Bad you lost 15 bucks if it's good you found a place to shoot.

I'm surprised this thread is still going, i think that has more to do with Angel and CG's diplomacy rather than the range itself.;)

If the entire internet began bashing the range you were a member of, you might not be so polite either.

my 2 pennys.

The entire internet? Eghads!

Soldier415
01-08-2008, 3:32 PM
The entire internet? Eghads!

OH the huge manatee! :TFH:

philthy209
01-08-2008, 3:33 PM
I'm with Linh.

I'm not in the area either, and I don't have a judgement one way or another.

I do know that i've been lurking this forum for not more than two years and I have learned more here than I ever could have from any pain in th @ss rangemaster. Those are why i've never gone to a range. I don't want anyone hassling me about how I shoot. I'm very responsible.

Next thing. The attitude Angel and CG have shown make me glad they run a club. They definately would not be doing good if they didn't have a pool of revenue from dedicated paying members.

Now I don't go to ranges or anything, and maybe I will sometime. Maybe not. But I will tell you something about what Soldier415 said above. I've checked out websites and read alot of threads about other ranges all over California. I have to say that Bullseye Range looks like the coolest place in the shooting world within driving distance. If I decide to go to a range sometime for 'couple' lessons, I would definately plan a day trip with the woman to Bullseye. Mind you it is well over 100 miles one way from my home. & I hope the people there are as helpful as i've read and maybe even get to shake hands with Soldier415.


That range is only .22 and handgun.:(

philthy209
01-08-2008, 3:34 PM
Ya i checked it was the whiole thing.:p

Soldier415
01-08-2008, 3:46 PM
Now I don't go to ranges or anything, and maybe I will sometime. Maybe not. But I will tell you something about what Soldier415 said above. I've checked out websites and read alot of threads about other ranges all over California. I have to say that Bullseye Range looks like the coolest place in the shooting world within driving distance. If I decide to go to a range sometime for 'couple' lessons, I would definately plan a day trip with the woman to Bullseye. Mind you it is well over 100 miles one way from my home. & I hope the people there are as helpful as i've read




We'd love to have you come by, and any and all calgunners for that matter. We pride ourselves on our friendly service and dedication to our customers. If for whatever reason, god forbid, I was ever rude or condescending to a customer I would be standing tall in front of the boss. Never comes to that though, as the staff all love guns, love talking about guns, and genuinely enjoy meeting people.

Last night myself, Bill (owner), and the other employee there stayed until 10:30pm (we close at 9pm) because one of our customers on the range finally decided to buy the Sig he has been looking at, and we did not want him to have to make the extra drive to come back the next day and add another day to his waiting period.



and maybe even get to shake hands with Soldier415.



I look forward to it, let me know in advance and I'll try and not have a Navy day and piss on my hands...:D

ViPER395
01-08-2008, 3:52 PM
That range is only .22 and handgun.:(:rolleyes:


Handgun training for me and the lady is what i'm looking for. I have a range catering to 100yd rifles 15 miles away from my doorstep.

Heres a good way to look at it. I would take a chance and drive 100 miles to Bullseye on my own dime, just from the good word of mouth and highly detailed website.

I wouldn't come to Manteca, which is the same distance, based on the word of mouth (much from Manteca's own members), if the president of the club himself came and picked my up in his own chopper...

OMG I just realized Calguns members are so far-reaching. We have only yet to tap into this far-reaching source of power. (insert Dr. Evil laugh here)

ViPER395
01-08-2008, 3:56 PM
We'd love to have you come by, and any and all calgunners for that matter. We pride ourselves on our friendly service and dedication to our customers. If for whatever reason, god forbid, I was ever rude or condescending to a customer I would be standing tall in front of the boss. Never comes to that though, as the staff all love guns, love talking about guns, and genuinely enjoy meeting people.

We should have a freakin Calguns at Bullseye BBQ day or something :eek:

-
wait, it might not fit all the crazy OLL types from the Manteca area lookin for someplace to hang out. :D

bwiese
01-08-2008, 4:17 PM
Last night myself, Bill (owner), and the other employee there stayed until 10:30pm (we close at 9pm) because one of our customers on the range finally decided to buy the Sig he has been looking at, and we did not want him to have to make the extra drive to come back the next day and add another day to his waiting period.

Now that's service!

NRAhighpowershooter
01-08-2008, 4:32 PM
ok.. I believe that enough has been said on this subject for both sides........