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AK all day
03-14-2012, 12:03 AM
In the market to buy my first AK style rifle and have been told a gazillion times to go with Arsenal. Anybody against that idea? I'm sure I'm not the first to ask this..:oji:

Chief2Guns
03-14-2012, 12:16 AM
I would go with ARSENAL, top notch rifle. Also, top dollar. You won't go wrong.

AK all day
03-14-2012, 12:18 AM
Thanks, I was hearing that converting yourself or getting a WASR 10 would be better.. seems fishy but I'm keeping an open mind.

ChaneRZ
03-14-2012, 1:24 AM
Can't go wrong with Arsenal.

sffred
03-14-2012, 2:58 AM
Arsenal +3 way over wasr10, at least it's assembled in las Vegas and it is still a Russian AK47, not eastern European Ak47, plus arsenal offers limited lifetime warranty with great customer service, support USA!

ns209
03-14-2012, 5:11 AM
I have an Arsenal sgl21 in jail, can't wait!

dbo31
03-14-2012, 5:42 AM
I was thinking about an SGL21 myself. Think they get alot of hate here because they crapped on CA buyers for so long. Not sure. But its a top notch AK.

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 8:41 AM
Screw arsenal!
1. In what way is it better than a wasr?
2. It is not top notch nor is it a top dollar rifle!
Out of all 16 ak's I own not 1 is an arsenal! I owned 2 and didnt like either one.
A wasr will do everything a arsenal does but cost way less.

e36mike
03-14-2012, 8:46 AM
Screw arsenal!
1. In what way is it better than a wasr?
2. It is not top notch nor is it a top dollar rifle!
Out of all 16 ak's I own not 1 is an arsenal! I owned 2 and didnt like either one.
A wasr will do everything a arsenal does but cost way less.

What didn't u like? Must have been a big deal if u found something to hate against 14 others...

I love my sgl23 so I'd say go with an arsenal.

kotton
03-14-2012, 8:53 AM
What didn't u like? Must have been a big deal if u found something to hate against 14 others...

I love my sgl23 so I'd say go with an arsenal.

Didnt you know Norcal is the most interesting man in the world...

He shoots 2000 rounds a week out of an AK, and every one hits the bullseye no matter how far the distance is.

His $400 WASR has been known to outshoot Barret 50 cals , while being fired from the hip.

He cleans all of his AK's with quick drying cement, and lubs them with gorilla blood, and has yet to have a jam.

Each one of his AK's are stored in a salt water fish tank as decorations, but will fire and be more accurate than an AR-15 once he pulls them out and wipes them off with used baby diapers.

FourLoko
03-14-2012, 8:58 AM
Didnt you know Norcal is the most interesting man in the world...

He shoots 2000 rounds a week out of an AK, and every one hits the bullseye no matter how far the distance is.

His $400 WASR has been known to outshoot Barret 50 cals , while being fired from the hip.

He cleans all of his AK's with quick drying cement, and lubs them with gorilla blood, and has yet to have a jam.

Each one of his AK's are stored in a salt water fish tank as decorations, but will fire and be more accurate than an AR-15 once he pulls them out and wipes them off with used baby diapers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/eckoplaya/OT%20Smilies/bowdown.gif

ns209
03-14-2012, 8:58 AM
Didnt you know Norcal is the most interesting man in the world...

He shoots 2000 rounds a week out of an AK, and every one hits the bullseye no matter how far the distance is.

His $400 WASR has been known to outshoot Barret 50 cals , while being fired from the hip.

He cleans all of his AK's with quick drying cement, and lubs them with gorilla blood, and has yet to have a jam.

Each one of his AK's are stored in a salt water fish tank as decorations, but will fire and be more accurate than an AR-15 once he pulls them out and wipes them off with used baby diapers.


Lol, I was waiting for norcal's responce

MUKAK
03-14-2012, 9:24 AM
Didnt you know Norcal is the most interesting man in the world...

He shoots 2000 rounds a week out of an AK, and every one hits the bullseye no matter how far the distance is.

His $400 WASR has been known to outshoot Barret 50 cals , while being fired from the hip.

He cleans all of his AK's with quick drying cement, and lubs them with gorilla blood, and has yet to have a jam.

Each one of his AK's are stored in a salt water fish tank as decorations, but will fire and be more accurate than an AR-15 once he pulls them out and wipes them off with used baby diapers.
lol u crack me up

i cant wait for a response

smog7
03-14-2012, 9:24 AM
where can I find some gorilla blood?

Mamluke
03-14-2012, 9:48 AM
.... NorcalK9 probably has more experience with AKs than most here, and Arsenals are OVER PRICED for what you get, the big prize is the Russian receiver, which by the way, still has SAIGA engraved on its side (the sporting rifle stigma imo) ...

Before I cough up $800, I'd jump on an an InterArms or Waffen Werks AK, a real military rifle that was broken down as a kit, imported and rebuild by these fine companies, with a quality Nodak Spud receiver, Tapco G2 trigger and a Chrome lined US barrel:



RRC Firearms has them listed for $579, but currently out of stock, and they do ship to Cali with a BB & 10 round mag:

http://www.rrcfirearms.com/pd-interarms-ak-47-black-polymer.cfm


.... :popcorn: ....

S470FM
03-14-2012, 9:57 AM
also consider an ak in 5.45. I have an SGL 33 and love it

zfields
03-14-2012, 10:12 AM
Arsenal hates CA. Refused to sell here untill the economy tanked, and they needed the sales.

Screw them.

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 10:14 AM
I wouldnt say I have more experience with them as far as time and build knowledge, But what I do have is major shooting experience with them!!!
I own my own company which means I actually do about 10 hrs of laborous work a week, which in turn gives me LOTS of time to shoot! I live in the country which in turn lets me shoot ANY time I want!
You wanna bash me cause I dont like arsenals? Cause I think theyre over priced? Cause I dont think a saiga no matter how pretty is worth $800 - $1100? Thats cool doesnt bother me in the least.
Anyone whos shot with me knows I SHOOT ALOT OF AMMO!
anyways heres some pics for you to look at.
notice the ware on the AK74 in the trio at the bottom? Thats a shooter!
OHH yeah cleaning regiment consists of royal purple motor oil!

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 10:18 AM
And more pics

gregshin
03-14-2012, 10:22 AM
i would take the wasr10 if its not a century build. As long as that wasr10 was from the original factory.

I took an AK course from Larry Vickers and he was talking about the history of the AK and how during his courses alot of the home build AK's would have issues. As soon as we start shooting sure enough the AK's that were home build's had issues. Not to say factory builds had issues...what gun doesn't from a factory. This isn't an AR where you can pretty much build together if the parts were truely mil-spec. This a gun that needs the original factory tooling that the russians and comblocs intended to be built.

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 10:28 AM
i would take the wasr10 if its not a century build. As long as that wasr10 was from the original factory.

I took an AK course from Larry Vickers and he was talking about the history of the AK and how during his courses alot of the home build AK's would have issues. As soon as we start shooting sure enough the AK's that were home build's had issues. Not to say factory builds had issues...what gun doesn't from a factory. This isn't an AR where you can pretty much build together if the parts were truely mil-spec. This a gun that needs the original factory tooling that the russians and comblocs intended to be built.

WOW I"m pretty sure Ive shot my share thru my AK"S and HAVE NEVER had an issue!
Dont know what kind of build vickers or you have seen but any build that is done by or coached by an AKTEAM member is gonna be a SHOOTER!!!!!!

AK all day
03-14-2012, 10:32 AM
Wow, so much information, I appreciate the responses a lot! I don't come across money easily, and this is probably the only AK i would have for a long time so i want something that will be accurate and last. I do agree that Arsenals are pretty pricey, but I like the "new" factor of them. NorcalK9.com you have some pretty nice looking Aks I like the real wood look over plastic myself. This is very confusing and a hard decisions to make. Basically My main concern is accuracy and condition. Thanks a ton again guys.

rtadlock
03-14-2012, 10:37 AM
I have a Arsenal Sgl 21 and a Wasr 10/63. My Arsenal is more accurate then my Wasr. When I run the bold on the WASR it is kind of clunky, the Arsenal is much smooter. I think Aresenals are more consistant with what you are going to get the a WASR but the WASR is an great gun for the price.

Also check out VEPR, similar price range as the Aresenal.

Mamluke
03-14-2012, 11:14 AM
That's what I call 'lethal' fire power ... :D

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=139654&d=1331748835

.... and I don't mean the dog, or the AK .... :D


...........

arslin
03-14-2012, 11:43 AM
My brother has one, and the one gripe he has is the BB... They put on a specialized tool.
http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/images/D/SGL23-CLOSE-PRNT.jpg
I got a Century arms Saiga Convert and saved a few hundred over my brother. The question remains if it was wise of me to skimp... We have not made it to the range. My feeling is both are Saigas. I also like that my AK came with a full size 10/30 bulgarian steal mag. The 10rd mags just do not look right.

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 11:46 AM
No one has even mentioned the crap trigger in the arsenal!

chadd446
03-14-2012, 11:49 AM
Didnt you know Norcal is the most interesting man in the world...

He shoots 2000 rounds a week out of an AK, and every one hits the bullseye no matter how far the distance is.

His $400 WASR has been known to outshoot Barret 50 cals , while being fired from the hip.

He cleans all of his AK's with quick drying cement, and lubs them with gorilla blood, and has yet to have a jam.

Each one of his AK's are stored in a salt water fish tank as decorations, but will fire and be more accurate than an AR-15 once he pulls them out and wipes them off with used baby diapers.

I just sprayed my lunch all over my desk! So Funny! Just get an SGL and never look back.

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 11:53 AM
Ok im gonna bite again. What does an sgl do that a wasr doesnt? Or any other type ak?
I will admit an arsenal is a tad bit better than the IO CASAR lmfao

barron123
03-14-2012, 11:57 AM
Don't you know that when you build/convert an AK out of your mom's basement it is automatically better than any SGL!

Ak714
03-14-2012, 12:19 PM
Arsenal = overpriced coverted Saiga
(due to politics, common sense, experience, $$, I would not buy an arsenal)
You can do the same conversion yourself and save $$...
There is a reason why 80% of the Ak platforms are build vs buy in Cali..
Home build will/might give you a better bonding, understanding of your Ak platform rifle..

Build your own or get a wasr + ammo

gregshin
03-14-2012, 12:42 PM
WOW I"m pretty sure Ive shot my share thru my AK"S and HAVE NEVER had an issue!
Dont know what kind of build vickers or you have seen but any build that is done by or coached by an AKTEAM member is gonna be a SHOOTER!!!!!!

It just very weird to see only the home builds have issues during the course. the only factory rifle having issues were a norinco 5.56 AK. Vickers also stated that of all the factory build AK's the 5.56's were the most notorious with feeding issues. It wasn't that all home builds have issues...some ran just fine too.

I took everything he said as NOT fact but just knowledge and statements since he does probably have one of the best AK collections in the US. At least he told us that AK's are like any other gun that needs lube and care to make it function 100%.

Chief2Guns
03-14-2012, 12:45 PM
Buy a WASR + ammo that will let you down or an Arsenal that won't let you down. Talking from experience too. I prefer quality over quantity. Is saving money or time most important. Value is what you get, price is what you pay.

gregshin
03-14-2012, 12:45 PM
Wow, so much information, I appreciate the responses a lot! I don't come across money easily, and this is probably the only AK i would have for a long time so i want something that will be accurate and last. I do agree that Arsenals are pretty pricey, but I like the "new" factor of them. NorcalK9.com you have some pretty nice looking Aks I like the real wood look over plastic myself. This is very confusing and a hard decisions to make. Basically My main concern is accuracy and condition. Thanks a ton again guys.

for what it is...i would just get a WASR10 just shoot the snot out of it. save the money to get ammo and take an AK class.

http://gainesvilletargetrange.com/larry-vickers-tactical-ak-47-rifle

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 12:45 PM
Lmao im so glad to know that arsenal fanboys hate me so much cause I hate arsenal 2x more!
When any of you get your arsenals to the round counts as my home builds, or wasr talk to me then!
Until then you spew crap from your keyboards!

FiveSeven
03-14-2012, 1:07 PM
.... NorcalK9 probably has more experience with AKs than most here, and Arsenals are OVER PRICED for what you get, the big prize is the Russian receiver, which by the way, still has SAIGA engraved on its side (the sporting rifle stigma imo) ...

Before I cough up $800, I'd jump on an an InterArms or Waffen Werks AK, a real military rifle that was broken down as a kit, imported and rebuild by these fine companies, with a quality Nodak Spud receiver, Tapco G2 trigger and a Chrome lined US barrel:



RRC Firearms has them listed for $579, but currently out of stock, and they do ship to Cali with a BB & 10 round mag:

http://www.rrcfirearms.com/pd-interarms-ak-47-black-polymer.cfm


.... :popcorn: ....

You know nothing and speak as such.

First I would agree that Arsenal is overpriced. Second is, IT DOES NOT MATTER if it has whatever written on the receiver.
AK is an AK and Russians make a very good one that won't give any problems and built to last a lifetime +.
When you buy something that's made in U.S by all these various companies that use No-duck-crap receivers you get this.
Rusted receiver coated over and left to rust from inside out. Impossible to remedy and had to be sent back.
Company sent me another one which I sold. So I won't name the company here.
Would show worse pics but it would reveal company name.
This is built using Nodak receiver.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Stuff450/Image4g5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Stuff450/Image38866.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Stuff450/Image2lt.jpg

BUT this is very common with many U.S AK manufacturers.
If not rusting from inside out then it's rivets flying out, over-sized gas port, bent receivers, worn out military parts that already served their life etc etc.
Screw NoDak rust magnet receivers and U.S companies who can't build AK properly.
Saiga all the way for properly built AK.

e36mike
03-14-2012, 1:14 PM
So what i got from this thread is if ur broke cheap and want a diy don't buy a arsenal. If not buy an arsenal and get great accuracy and quality then change out parts and furniture from there if unsatisfied.

SxB
03-14-2012, 1:16 PM
Ok im gonna bite again. What does an sgl do that a wasr doesnt? Or any other type ak?
I will admit an arsenal is a tad bit better than the IO CASAR lmfao

I gotta agree with NorcalK9 on all points. I've now owned 2 and they're nothing special. As far as the IO CASAR's...... well i'll just say I have yet to hear one good thing about them from someone who actually has experience with AK's. My favorite AK's so far have been the ones I built.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7053/6982939585_2b8ac290fa_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kyleemley/6982939585/)
My most recent AK build (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kyleemley/6982939585/) by EvanAndrewPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/kyleemley/), on Flickr

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 1:21 PM
Now im the one roflmfao!
Saigas are nIce, i'm all for conveting a saiga at times. But what wears down on the parts? The solid steel bcg? Gas block? Fsb? Rsb? Mags? Trunions? Gas tube? Dust cover?
Barrel? Yes, but every one of mine has a VIRGIN non issued barrel, and ive yet to have a rivet come out of any of my AK's.
More crap for the noobs to read is all it is.
Ive never used a nodak so I cant speak on that one.

Ryan in SD
03-14-2012, 1:24 PM
Don't you know that when you build/convert an AK out of your mom's basement it is automatically better than any SGL!

Hahaha first post?!

Wow, what other ips are you linked to? :facepalm:

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 1:31 PM
@e36mike
Im not broke nor cheap lmao.
You guys praise these saigas like theyre the best of the best. How are they better? Bet you this I have one of my home builds that has more money sitting in it than any arsenal built rifle! I choose not to trust my life to a sporter rifle. Doesnt mean I dont own or shoot saigas, I have them in every caliber they offer and 2 in 556.
Just cause you paid $50k on a hoopty, and I paid $48k on my hd duramax does that mean yours is better? Nah you got took on a ride!

zfields
03-14-2012, 1:32 PM
.... NorcalK9 probably has more experience with AKs than most here, and Arsenals are OVER PRICED for what you get, the big prize is the Russian receiver, which by the way, still has SAIGA engraved on its side (the sporting rifle stigma imo) ...

Before I cough up $800, I'd jump on an an InterArms or Waffen Werks AK, a real military rifle that was broken down as a kit, imported and rebuild by these fine companies, with a quality Nodak Spud receiver, Tapco G2 trigger and a Chrome lined US barrel:


.... :popcorn: ....

Id take the Russian receiver and barrel over a US made barrel any day of the week.

FiveSeven
03-14-2012, 1:33 PM
Now im the one roflmfao!
Saigas are nIce, i'm all for conveting a saiga at times. But what wears down on the parts? The solid steel bcg? Gas block? Fsb? Rsb? Mags? Trunions? Gas tube? Dust cover?
Barrel? Yes, but every one of mine has a VIRGIN non issued barrel, and ive yet to have a rivet come out of any of my AK's.
More crap for the noobs to read is all it is.
Ive never used a nodak so I cant speak on that one.

I was referring to companies here in U.S that manufacture AK's as fast as they can to make quick profit.
If you have enough time building them and have quality parts then there's nothing wrong with a home build if done right.

Ryan in SD
03-14-2012, 1:38 PM
Anyone have hands on experience with veprs? They are suppose to be nicer high end AKs. I'd look at those before I look at arsenal if I wanted to spend a more than reasonable amount for an AK.

I consider Saigas/arsenals middle of the road for overall build quality but I'd say their barrels are a step above average when taking US made barrels into account. I've used some yugo take off's that aren't quite up to par either but they were of questionable use. Saigas in 7.62 seem to be a good 1 moa on average better in my experience. That said, there's probably other 7.62 barrels possibly from other us manufactures or over seas that match or even out perform the saigas barrels.

Also, there are out of state vendors that can import with bullet buttons if you want the more classic look.

Lot's of people with no real AK experience just repeat what they hear. I'm just trying to say that there are many more options available. Owning an arsenal doesn't make one an expert.

I can see why some people are affraid to do their own work. Not everyone is good with their hands.

e36mike
03-14-2012, 1:42 PM
Didn't say you were cheap I respect your opinions and I myself am open to other aks than arsenals but my only gripe from u is that your bashing em for reasons i don't see besides a sub excellent trigger. U can't deny its a very well built ak. And to me 800 for a very well built ak out of the box is not overpriced at all..

FiveSeven
03-14-2012, 1:57 PM
@e36mike
Im not broke nor cheap lmao.
You guys praise these saigas like theyre the best of the best. How are they better? Bet you this I have one of my home builds that has more money sitting in it than any arsenal built rifle! I choose not to trust my life to a sporter rifle. Doesnt mean I dont own or shoot saigas, I have them in every caliber they offer and 2 in 556.
Just cause you paid $50k on a hoopty, and I paid $48k on my hd duramax does that mean yours is better? Nah you got took on a ride!

You talk more crap then anyone here....

Seriously? Trust your life to a sporter rifle?
Please do elaborate more on that though processes of yours. Because it's beyond retard they way I see it.

When you strip the Saiga from it's factory FCG and install same Tapco FCG that you use in your homebuild..... How are these rifle differ?. Does your home-build bent sheet metal has magical ability to time shift bullets, make them fly faster, what?

ns209
03-14-2012, 2:02 PM
You talk more crap then anyone here....

Seriously? Trust your life to a sporter rifle?
Please do elaborate more on that though processes of yours. Because it's beyond retard they way I see it.

When you strip the Saiga from it's factory FCG and install same Tapco FCG that you use in your homebuild..... How are these rifle differ?. Does your home-build bent sheet metal has magical ability to time shift bullets, make them fly faster, what?

:iagree: Every Ak thread is full of this crap

CSACANNONEER
03-14-2012, 2:10 PM
Screw Arsenal and their DECADES of proactively keeping their products out of Ca. They have done more to support the anti 2A movement in Ca than the Brady bunch could ever dream of doing.

Oh, do I know anything about AKs? Yea, I have limited experience with them. I've been around a couple in my time. In fact, I'm willing to bet that close to 1000 AKs have been built at my home(s). in the last 3 years.

You can't beat WASRs for the price but, NEVER buy an IO!

hammerhands32
03-14-2012, 2:15 PM
SA VZ58 (he did say AK STYLE)
http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/rifles/762-x-39-mm/

Krebs
http://www.krebscustom.com/KalashnikovRifles.shtml#AK103KPKFS

Just more info to look at

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 2:18 PM
Heres my belief. Its not fact nor to be taken as fact!
A saiga is built to be exported and sold to civillians. It is not built by milspec parts, a russian or any other combloc ak/kit is built to defend their countries. A saiga is built to be sent out for a profit to civillians.
Now lets make it EASY for you guys.
Hummer.
A h3 is built in the same factory as the military version, are they the same? Answer is NO.
As for why I dont like arsenals alot of it is based on the above theory and just because its rebuilt to LOOL like an ak doesnt mean its the same. Also arsenal had a long standing of anti CA. Also what did arsenal do to the rifle that you couldnt?
@zfields
Im with you on U.S. Barrels, and not one of my AK's has a U.S. Barrel...
As for me talking crap, yes I do talk crap about arsenals, yet I still dont have to revert to talking crap about any individual person! And until i'm banned, calguns crashes, or till I die I will bash the company Arsenal! Especially when you fanboys claim theyre the best of the best!
As for the Vepr, I wanna buy one in 762x54 since saiga doesnt offer that caliber.

J.S.Riesch
03-14-2012, 2:30 PM
:sleeping:

kotton
03-14-2012, 2:37 PM
A h3 is built in the same factory as the military version, are they the same? Answer is NO.


Civilian Humvee
http://www.oramagazine.com/images/0505-may/050508f-hummers-deadwood/06photo12.jpg

Military HMMWV
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/north_america/united_states/wheeled_armoured/humvee/pictures/AM_General_Humvee_High_Mobility_Multi-Purpose_Wheeled_Vehicles_HMMWV_United_States_Us_Ar my_001.jpg

Both assembed in Indiana to the same specs

differences..?

Mostly paint, trim, and air conditioning.

bigchelis
03-14-2012, 2:38 PM
My vote is to go custom.

Arsenal are nice AK, but SJgunguy for example does nicer work and the way you want it.

bigC

FiveSeven
03-14-2012, 2:41 PM
Heres my belief. Its not fact nor to be taken as fact!
A saiga is built to be exported and sold to civillians. It is not built by milspec parts, a russian or any other combloc ak/kit is built to defend their countries.
Wrong, they have the same receivers made with the same steel, heat treated and coated/painted in the exact same process.
Base bare bone sheet metal in Saiga is the same as military AK except for a few a modifications to comply with the laws/regulations.

A saiga is built to be sent out for a profit to civillians.
And? In Russia it's been an age old practice to manufacture product for civilians in the same factory and manner as for civilians, optics (microscopes, camera lenses, rifle scopes etc), Trucks, firearms, electric appliance etc etc.
Once again, Saiga is manufactured in the same plant with exact the same manner and process as military AK.

Now lets make it EASY for you guys.
Hummer.
A h3 is built in the same factory as the military version, are they the same? Answer is NO.
Really? Military HMMWV and H3 have absolutely nothing in common, period.
Saiga has everything in common with AK and it's an AK. Take any AK part and it will fit and function in Saiga. Can you say that about those two vehicles in your example? No, you can't.


As for me talking crap, yes I do talk crap about arsenalsSaiga, yet I still dont have to revert to talking crap about any individual person!
Fixed.

I simply ask you to elaborate more on your thinking on how is it that "sporter" rifle that you won't trust your life to.
Again, what's the difference between Saiga with Tapco FCG and your home built with the same Tapco FCG?
How is your home stamped sheet metal superior to Russian factory one?
If not then it's obvious your talking crap is valid.

e36mike
03-14-2012, 2:50 PM
To much politics and things that dont matter itt. Shoot the gun. Does ot shoot good and last long yes. What's the problem w it? Still haven't heard a legitmate reason arsenals aren't good.

0351USMC
03-14-2012, 2:52 PM
Saiga has everything in common with AK and it's an AK. Take any AK part and it will fit and function in Saiga. Can you say that about those two vehicles in your example? No, you can't.
Saiga/Arsenal bolt is slightly different,Standard Ak bolt/Bolt carrier will not work on Saiga

zfields
03-14-2012, 2:52 PM
Screw Arsenal and their DECADES of proactively keeping their products out of Ca. They have done more to support the anti 2A movement in Ca than the Brady bunch could ever dream of doing.


To much politics and things that dont matter itt. Shoot the gun. Does ot shoot good and last long yes. What's the problem w it? Still haven't heard a legitmate reason arsenals aren't good.


That's enough for me personally.

FiveSeven
03-14-2012, 2:54 PM
Saiga/Arsenal bolt is slightly different,Standard Ak bolt/Bolt carrier will not work on Saiga


I swapped and used numerous AK bolts with Saigas.

Usually Older bolt carrier might not work, newer do, for the one that don't it takes 1 minute or less with a dremmel if that's what you want.

zfields
03-14-2012, 2:55 PM
Saiga/Arsenal bolt is slightly different,Standard Ak bolt/Bolt carrier will not work on Saiga

It uses the newer AK100 series bolt carrier from what I have been told by people in the know.

So take that for what it is.

bighead
03-14-2012, 2:57 PM
This poor guy asked a question and it turns into a pursefight.

I would say these are your options listed in order of price.

Arsenal

Interarms

Wasr

All three should do the job, some slightly better than the others but their still all AK's.

Although I have no personal experience yet, everyone here raves about SJGunguy's AK builds.He seems very knowledgable.

bighead
03-14-2012, 2:59 PM
Didnt you know Norcal is the most interesting man in the world...

He shoots 2000 rounds a week out of an AK, and every one hits the bullseye no matter how far the distance is.

His $400 WASR has been known to outshoot Barret 50 cals , while being fired from the hip.

He cleans all of his AK's with quick drying cement, and lubs them with gorilla blood, and has yet to have a jam.

Each one of his AK's are stored in a salt water fish tank as decorations, but will fire and be more accurate than an AR-15 once he pulls them out and wipes them off with used baby diapers.

:hide:

Ruiner
03-14-2012, 3:11 PM
It uses the newer AK100 series bolt carrier from what I have been told by people in the know.

So take that for what it is.

And this is where much of the "it isn't milscpec" stuff comes from. Internally it looks different from all other AK home builds because it has the AK100 series updates. Most of what we see here are from older kits or based on older manufacturing methods/parts. Minus the bullet guide, they are the same barreled receivers as NEWER PRODUCTION AK-74s. Neither of which are "better," just different. You can cite a variety of reasons you wouldn't buy an arsenal (mostly political reasons), but claiming that they are of sub-par quality is most definitely NOT a valid reason.

barron123
03-14-2012, 3:12 PM
4,200 rounds through my SGL-31. I'm just sayin.
I guess I should throw it away and buy a WASR now?

Chief2Guns
03-14-2012, 3:18 PM
Will the rifle fire and be accurate every time I pull the trigger? I'm willing to pay the extra $300 and get something reliable. Theres no price on that. I don't want to be tinkering with something that my life depends on (If you see it from this point of view). Especially if it's going to be his first rifle.

chadd446
03-14-2012, 3:22 PM
Hahaha first post?!

Wow, what other ips are you linked to? :facepalm:

Yea, Barron123, You are not computer nerd enough to post on who's AK is better. My guess is you have to have at least two posts?

FiveSeven
03-14-2012, 3:25 PM
It uses the newer AK100 series bolt carrier from what I have been told by people in the know.

So take that for what it is.

It's not really bolt but receiver rails. If you slightly modify rail (one point) any AK bolt will function perfect. Done it a on few Saigas (wanted surp polished bolt) and Saiga bolt work the same as well.

celler
03-14-2012, 3:38 PM
Didnt you know Norcal is the most interesting man in the world...

He shoots 2000 rounds a week out of an AK, and every one hits the bullseye no matter how far the distance is.

His $400 WASR has been known to outshoot Barret 50 cals , while being fired from the hip.

He cleans all of his AK's with quick drying cement, and lubs them with gorilla blood, and has yet to have a jam.

Each one of his AK's are stored in a salt water fish tank as decorations, but will fire and be more accurate than an AR-15 once he pulls them out and wipes them off with used baby diapers.

Holy crapoly that was some funny stuff.

SxB
03-14-2012, 3:51 PM
You guys are Fing dumb. Who really cares? NorcalK9 is a good guy and is trying to save you some money and bullpoop. If you want to go spend 700-2000 for something that cam be had for 400, by all means, do it. As you can see there are plenty of folks who not only do it but will support you doing it. It's your money, do with it as you see fit.
As a last note. I've had arsenals, they go bang when I squeez the trigger. I enjoy the ak I built much more. I met some great people at build party's, and learned alot along the way. Don't let any of these turds determin how you spend your money. Get what your going to be happy with.
Kyle

MrPlink
03-14-2012, 3:58 PM
differences..?

Mostly paint, trim, and air conditioning.

no pintle mount for a M240? :shrug:

kotton
03-14-2012, 4:06 PM
no pintle mount for a M240? :shrug:

those are considered an evil feature on the CA SUV/TRUCK flow chart.:43:

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 4:13 PM
Ok again the arsenal guys bash everything cause its not built in las vegas. You can believe with all your heart that arsenals are worth the money you pay for them. Thats cool.
but I tell you this in both saiga556's ive had multiple casings stuck in chamber, in saiga545 multiple failure to ejects, in 762x39 couple failure to feed, and failure to eject.
ive never had these probs with none if my military rifle kits and I have 10x's the amount if rounds thru them!
You say arsenals are the very best and worth 900+, for what? Theyre not worth it, theyre not better than a wasr. So when ut comes to a arsenal what makes them crap is the price tag that is almost a 1/3 more than a wasr! If a wasr cost 900 i'd call it crap too!

J.S.Riesch
03-14-2012, 4:18 PM
:iagree: Every Ak thread is full of this crap

It seems to be the pattern here. If you happen to dislike AK pattern rifles or God forbid to form your own opinion, the usual bunch of condescending mall ninjas see an opportunity to insult you and challenge your manhood. It does not matter that you (may) spend years carry/use that rifle in the field,(may) went through extensive training and armorer classes. None of those matters as long as they able to blow tons of "my opinion is better than yours” hot gas. It never crosses their minds that there might be a difference of opinions based on real life experiences and not on the latest finger f**king session with an AK from Big 5s.

Moreover, NorCalK9.com, shooting 2000 rds per months (or even per day) and the fact that you owe a 16, or is it 17??? semiauto AKs does not makes you an expert by any stretch of imagination. Ingrave this into your brains. What does? Move over to the motherland, learn the language and start work at the IZMASH or MOLOT assembly line. Or became a sworn LEO here, with a special team assignment. Or even better, go to US Military Forces Recruitment Office to found out, if you know what I mean. Or.., never mind. I doubt that you ever will. Enough said here about you.

As to the OP: all AK pattern rifles made in Russia (read-SAIGAs, VEPRs, Legion, ect) or receivers made there, made to the military specs. Period. Russians do not have different production lines (or specs for that matter) for civilian and military sales. IT’S JUST NOT THE CASE. There is no difference in the quality between two. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for this.
Bear with me pls.…
Historically in Russia, especially in USSR, any gun rights and subsequently civilian gun ownership was prohibited and did not exist. Back then, one can only buy a modest shotgun, air rifle or, with a hard to obtain permission, centerfire rifle for hunting. However, in 1992 after collapse of the Soviet Union that has changed. After going trough somewhat laborious and confusing process (subject to another tread)one, if so desire, can acquire centerfire rifles for sporting and/or hunting purposes. At that time gun manufacturers didn’t have anything else to offer for newly created civilian market. This explained the influx of SAIGA’s, development of VEPRs, Legions ect., ect., on civilian market. Any of those of designs/models in reality build according to mil specifications(read materials used, heat treatment,fit and finish,ect..)

To make it short: anything that came here dressed in civilian clothes as a hunting rifle and build on original Russian receiver worth looking into. I am not a big fanatic of worn out demil kits from eastblock countries, but that just me. In my opinion, they are cold war era used junk. Also, beware it is and always will be a 60+ year old design. Good luck.

MrPlink
03-14-2012, 4:21 PM
those are considered an evil feature on the CA SUV/TRUCK flow chart.:43:

ummmm, what if I have fuel lock on my gas cap?
Can I still use my pre-ban hi cap fuel tanks?


Anywho...

lighten up guys! :cool:

SURVIVOR619
03-14-2012, 4:24 PM
SxB said it correct in that NorcalK9 is just trying to save the OP some money.

MrPlink
03-14-2012, 4:26 PM
[QUOTE=FUGASOFF;8218989 Move over to the motherland, learn the language and start work at the IZMASH or MOLOT assembly line. Or became a sworn LEO here, with a special team assignment. Or even better, go to US Military Forces Recruitment Office to found out, if you know what I mean. Or.., never mind. I doubt that you ever will. Enough said here about you.

[/QUOTE]

not a damn one of those things would make you an AK expert.

talk about a logic fail.

Ak714
03-14-2012, 4:26 PM
See what you started OP?

AK all day
03-14-2012, 4:29 PM
TBH this is not helping haha, so far I would have to give NorcalK9.com most credit for helpful non-biased information. I am interested in building my own, but i have asolutly no clue where to get parts, or what parts to get... and I'm an AK virgin, so it might turn out to be a disaster... I really like Arsenals too but to be honest.. there out of my price range for the most part. I value quality!!!!! I like new looking parts, want a chrome lined barrel, and a magazine well capable of accepting double stack mags. Thats all I know but I really appreciate all your guys input and help! Building one seems to be best route, but also a very unknown dark place. Thanks again.

J.S.Riesch
03-14-2012, 4:30 PM
not a damn one of those things would make you an AK expert.

talk about a logic fail.

YOU'RE MY HERO!!!

AK all day
03-14-2012, 4:36 PM
This poor guy asked a question and it turns into a pursefight.

I would say these are your options listed in order of price.

Arsenal

Interarms

Wasr

All three should do the job, some slightly better than the others but their still all AK's.

Although I have no personal experience yet, everyone here raves about SJGunguy's AK builds.He seems very knowledgable.

Thank you very much.

AK all day
03-14-2012, 4:40 PM
Basically after reading 80+ posts of small arguments, I think I have come to a decicion to either get a Inter arms or build my own gun. Maybe if arsenals out of this, it would be more friendly. :)

Socalman
03-14-2012, 4:53 PM
Oh the emotion that is in this thread. My 2cents....my son has an Arsenal (I believe it is SLR96) that he got in the mid 90's and it has functioned like a dream every time I have shot it. Only one jam when we were testing some Wolf HP ammo. It is about as accurate as you could want out to 150 yards. I have never shot it beyond that distance. Are they still good? I dunno.

AK all day
03-14-2012, 5:06 PM
Any body know where I can get a nice WASR or parts to build my own?

Ezekiel2000
03-14-2012, 5:21 PM
If you tell us where you're at someone can probably recommend somewhere local.

Mamluke
03-14-2012, 5:31 PM
You know nothing and speak as such.



.... I know there will be a sunset tonight and a sunrise tomorrow, does that count?!! Darth Saiga :43:

http://images.wikia.com/darth/images/7/76/Darth_Vader.jpg

Someone needs an intense lesson in the proper cleaning regiment of firearms, after shooting corrosive ammo!

Plus I know this:

An AK is no beauty queen nor an accuracy champion, its a reliable and dependable rifle that will shoot & keep shooting in the most adverse of conditions! Even when rusted to its core, just pour some engine oil, used is better, and that thing will come alive!

http://www.gunpundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/shovel_ak.jpg

........



..........

.....

zfields
03-14-2012, 5:50 PM
I wanna build an AK with the shovel buttstock, just for kicks.

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 5:57 PM
Looks like 10 against me and I still steered another innocent soul into the darkness lol.
OP youre making a good choice.

ns209
03-14-2012, 6:13 PM
TBH this is not helping haha, so far I would have to give NorcalK9.com most credit for helpful non-biased information. I am interested in building my own, but i have asolutly no clue where to get parts, or what parts to get... and I'm an AK virgin, so it might turn out to be a disaster... I really like Arsenals too but to be honest.. there out of my price range for the most part. I value quality!!!!! I like new looking parts, want a chrome lined barrel, and a magazine well capable of accepting double stack mags. Thats all I know but I really appreciate all your guys input and help! Building one seems to be best route, but also a very unknown dark place. Thanks again.

In that case a WASR is a good choice.

AK all day
03-14-2012, 6:14 PM
I live in the (909) near Redlands. I still hear extremes on both sides for the WASRs though, and its scary.. lol Thanks guys

zfields
03-14-2012, 6:26 PM
I live in the (909) near Redlands. I still hear extremes on both sides for the WASRs though, and its scary.. lol Thanks guys


Just be sure to inspect it for the common problems, front sight and gas block cant, and loose mag wells (not really a problem, but some people are picky).

AK all day
03-14-2012, 6:39 PM
What exactly is the problem with the gas block?

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 6:43 PM
They say somtimes the gasblock is canted, yet ive never seen one that was. As for the mag wobble, it doesnt matter. And canted front site is a 10 minute easy fix!

SxB
03-14-2012, 6:45 PM
www.akbuilder.com

Any body know where I can get a nice WASR or parts to build my own?

vintagedude88
03-14-2012, 6:58 PM
Wow! All that drama (3 pages worth) over a one line question in one whole day.

If you like the look of the Arsenal and want to save a few bucks, get the Saiga IZ332 and convert it yourself with the trigger parts of your choice and your preferred mag lock. You'll have a better rifle that way. It will still be Russian and will probably shoot better than the Arsenal. Just make sure your parts count is right for 922r.

AKs are fun. There are so many different flavors and, dare I say it, even more so than ARs.

If you're not sure about WASRs check out the Cugir M10-762. It is a brand new rifle from the same factory that makes the WASRs in Romania. Its priced smack in between the WASR and the Arsenal at about $600.

gregshin
03-14-2012, 7:02 PM
if i had to buy one AK only and money/CA gun laws weren't an issue i would buy a Valmet or Galil.

Doesn't henderson defense sell inspected WASR10's?

MrPlink
03-14-2012, 7:02 PM
YOU'RE MY HERO!!!

low standards too..

AK all day
03-14-2012, 7:04 PM
Thanks a lot guys, great help. :) I'll be looking around for quite a while though, i dont think my local dealers carry WASR 10s nor accept online transfers.

Chief2Guns
03-14-2012, 7:10 PM
You say you want to build and you don't know what a gas block is,
I see alot of trouble in your build. Good luck, you'll need
it. Make sure you have the tools to put one together.

Chief2Guns
03-14-2012, 7:10 PM
You say you want to build and you don't know what a gas block is,
I see alot of trouble in your build. Good luck, you'll need
it. Make sure you have the tools to put one together.

Ruiner
03-14-2012, 7:14 PM
They say somtimes the gasblock is canted, yet ive never seen one that was. As for the mag wobble, it doesnt matter. And canted front site is a 10 minute easy fix!

That issue isn't as common as it used to be. I guess they stepped up their QC as that was the most common complaint. That said, it still would be a good idea to inspect one in person.

Mamluke
03-14-2012, 7:23 PM
You say you want to build and you don't know what a gas block is,
I see alot of trouble in your build. Good luck, you'll need
it. Make sure you have the tools to put one together.

..... oh no .... things can & will go Ape s***

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-m9vkSHkErpQ/TnI6hrjEsNI/AAAAAAAAEKw/LDRFndEYdik/s1600/2001_a_space_odyssey_hello_dave.jpg


......... :popcorn: .........

tujungatoes
03-14-2012, 7:38 PM
WOW....epic gun geek interwebs fighting! I'm glad I finally checked this thread out.:D

Dillon Jury it looks like you've already made your decision, but here's my 2 cents.

Arsenal turns out converted saigas at what is actually a decent price when you compare what it would cost to have one converted by a professional...So it's kind of a wash price wise.....Bottom line they are decent rifles.

As you've seen people tend to look down their nose at the WASR, but I'll be damned if they don't work. They just aren't terribly pretty. This is not to say that you can't spruce it up a bit either....Bottom line they are decent rifles.

I could list just about every company marketing an AK the same way(except I.O). It's not a match rifle.....it's a f**kin' AK. Poeple get way too caught up in who made what where. IMO it's not that big of a deal. I will however say this. All the arsenal/saiga fanboys like to think that because the rifle was made in russia that it's somehow superior because that's where the design originated....so f**king what? The first automobile was made in France for christ sake. You don't hear people screaming about how the French make the best cars on the planet do you? The whole "authentic russian made" thing is IMO a giant load of crap.

SURVIVOR619
03-14-2012, 7:38 PM
I'm a noob, bought my first AK as a Saiga, converted it - triggered job etc, which was straight forward, gratifying and well worth it. I blast everything out of it and it's mega fun. From what I can tell after about a year of shooting it regularly, it's gonna outlast me..
Try to find a build party and learn from your fellow calgunners... I'm ready for my opportunity to do the same...
Respect, Survivor

nicoroshi
03-14-2012, 7:40 PM
My personal opinions on this:

A Siaga is built in the factory that makes AKs. It does have a fully heat treated receiver, and Russian barrel. They can be had fairly cheaply, and converted to look like an AK should (pistol grip, correct for an AK hand guards, trigger moved to proper location, and also converted to use regular AK mags).
A Siaga is a fine rifle.
That being said......
I have a hard time believing that a screwed on bullet guide, set screwed hand guard retainer, plastic plugged holes in receiver extra riveted/ screwed on trigger guard (as opposed to the one piece all riveted of the actual AK47) comes anywhere near a rifle built from An Actual Demilled AK47
Granted you have a fully heat treated receiver on a converted Siaga but what forces does the receiver actually handle???
The hammer/ trigger spring.
The recoil spring.
The Axis pin(s) rotation.
Ejector tip.
I would bet that a spot heat treated home built receiver would hold up just as well to those forces as a fully heat treated Siaga receiver (Actually don't have to bet. I know it can, and does).

Now not to knock the Siaga conversion route as it is a viable solution for a lot of people, and will produce a rifle that will be functional.

Would I pay Arsenal to do this conversion that i could do myself for FAR cheaper with simple tools I can find around my house?
NO

On the WASR:
Not as pretty on the outside as some of the 'conversions' but made at the factory in Romania where they actually make AKs, and not in Las Vegas where they only do conversions.
Check for mag wobble, and canted sights before buying, and you'll have a fine shooting rifle that was constructed like an AK should be.

Now for my personal preference:
I will not own a Siaga conversion for the same reason that I will not do a screw build (although that's how I started building ).
That fastener can come loose.
A rivet will not.
I also will not buy a WASR since I can build them as good or better than what I have seen commercially available.

Give me a good old demilled Commie (REAL) AK kit any day, and I will take the time in construction to make a rifle that will rival ANYTHING that can be bought, and it will not have 'bolt on' conversion parts on it, canted sights or mag wobble.

But hey.....Don't listen to me. I have only built a few, and the way they shoot isn't anything special. :43:

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6223/img0761ya.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1816/imagexzh.jpg

SURVIVOR619
03-14-2012, 7:45 PM
One day I hope to be "survivoroshi"! Awesome collection brother!

SxB
03-14-2012, 7:52 PM
Cant argue to much with that.

My personal opinions on this:

A Siaga is built in the factory that makes AKs. It does have a fully heat treated receiver, and Russian barrel. They can be had fairly cheaply, and converted to look like an AK should (pistol grip, correct for an AK hand guards, trigger moved to proper location, and also converted to use regular AK mags).
A Siaga is a fine rifle.
That being said......
I have a hard time believing that a screwed on bullet guide, set screwed hand guard retainer, plastic plugged holes in receiver extra riveted/ screwed on trigger guard (as opposed to the one piece all riveted of the actual AK47) comes anywhere near a rifle built from An Actual Demilled AK47
Granted you have a fully heat treated receiver on a converted Siaga but what forces does the receiver actually handle???
The hammer/ trigger spring.
The recoil spring.
The Axis pin(s) rotation.
Ejector tip.
I would bet that a spot heat treated home built receiver would hold up just as well to those forces as a fully heat treated Siaga receiver (Actually don't have to bet. I know it can, and does).

Now not to knock the Siaga conversion route as it is a viable solution for a lot of people, and will produce a rifle that will be functional.

Would I pay Arsenal to do this conversion that i could do myself for FAR cheaper with simple tools I can find around my house?
NO

On the WASR:
Not as pretty on the outside as some of the 'conversions' but made at the factory in Romania where they actually make AKs, and not in Las Vegas where they only do conversions.
Check for mag wobble, and canted sights before buying, and you'll have a fine shooting rifle that was constructed like an AK should be.

Now for my personal preference:
I will not own a Siaga conversion for the same reason that I will not do a screw build (although that's how I started building ).
That fastener can come loose.
A rivet will not.
I also will not buy a WASR since I can build them as good or better than what I have seen commercially available.

Give me a good old demilled Commie (REAL) AK kit any day, and I will take the time in construction to make a rifle that will rival ANYTHING that can be bought, and it will not have 'bolt on' conversion parts on it, canted sights or mag wobble.

But hey.....Don't listen to me. I have only built a few, and the way they shoot isn't anything special. :43:

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6223/img0761ya.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1816/imagexzh.jpg

Mamluke
03-14-2012, 7:57 PM
WOW....epic gun geek interwebs fighting! I'm glad I finally checked this thread out.:D

Dillon Jury it looks like you've already made your decision, but here's my 2 cents.

Arsenal turns out converted saigas at what is actually a decent price when you compare what it would cost to have one converted by a professional...So it's kind of a wash price wise.....Bottom line they are decent rifles.

As you've seen people tend to look down their nose at the WASR, but I'll be damned if they don't work. They just aren't terribly pretty. This is not to say that you can't spruce it up a bit either....Bottom line they are decent rifles.

I could list just about every company marketing an AK the same way(except I.O). It's not a match rifle.....it's a f**kin' AK. Poeple get way too caught up in who made what where. IMO it's not that big of a deal. I will however say this. All the arsenal/saiga fanboys like to think that because the rifle was made in russia that it's somehow superior because that's where the design originated....so f**king what? The first automobile was made in France for christ sake. You don't hear people screaming about how the French make the best cars on the planet do you? The whole "authentic russian made" thing is IMO a giant load of crap.


:King:


My personal opinions on this:

A Siaga is built in the factory that makes AKs. It does have a fully heat treated receiver, and Russian barrel. They can be had fairly cheaply, and converted to look like an AK should (pistol grip, correct for an AK hand guards, trigger moved to proper location, and also converted to use regular AK mags).
A Siaga is a fine rifle.
That being said......
I have a hard time believing that a screwed on bullet guide, set screwed hand guard retainer, plastic plugged holes in receiver extra riveted/ screwed on trigger guard (as opposed to the one piece all riveted of the actual AK47) comes anywhere near a rifle built from An Actual Demilled AK47
Granted you have a fully heat treated receiver on a converted Siaga but what forces does the receiver actually handle???
The hammer/ trigger spring.
The recoil spring.
The Axis pin(s) rotation.
Ejector tip.
I would bet that a spot heat treated home built receiver would hold up just as well to those forces as a fully heat treated Siaga receiver (Actually don't have to bet. I know it can, and does).

Now not to knock the Siaga conversion route as it is a viable solution for a lot of people, and will produce a rifle that will be functional.

Would I pay Arsenal to do this conversion that i could do myself for FAR cheaper with simple tools I can find around my house?
NO

On the WASR:
Not as pretty on the outside as some of the 'conversions' but made at the factory in Romania where they actually make AKs, and not in Las Vegas where they only do conversions.
Check for mag wobble, and canted sights before buying, and you'll have a fine shooting rifle that was constructed like an AK should be.

Now for my personal preference:
I will not own a Siaga conversion for the same reason that I will not do a screw build (although that's how I started building ).
That fastener can come loose.
A rivet will not.
I also will not buy a WASR since I can build them as good or better than what I have seen commercially available.

Give me a good old demilled Commie (REAL) AK kit any day, and I will take the time in construction to make a rifle that will rival ANYTHING that can be bought, and it will not have 'bolt on' conversion parts on it, canted sights or mag wobble.

But hey.....Don't listen to me. I have only built a few, and the way they shoot isn't anything special. :43:

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6223/img0761ya.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1816/imagexzh.jpg



:King:


.......



.......

nicoroshi
03-14-2012, 8:08 PM
One day I hope to be "survivoroshi"! Awesome collection brother!
Thank you (That's an old picture though......I have built more since then) :43:

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 8:28 PM
Niko is THE KING! Lol thats a collection

CSACANNONEER
03-14-2012, 8:28 PM
And this is where much of the "it isn't milscpec" stuff comes from. Internally it looks different from all other AK home builds because it has the AK100 series updates. Most of what we see here are from older kits or based on older manufacturing methods/parts. Minus the bullet guide, they are the same barreled receivers as NEWER PRODUCTION AK-74s. Neither of which are "better," just different. You can cite a variety of reasons you wouldn't buy an arsenal (mostly political reasons), but claiming that they are of sub-par quality is most definitely NOT a valid reason.

Sorry but many/most Saiga barrels are not mil spec. Many are not threaded. Most have non mil spec chambers cut in them to keep them from being confussed with real military barrels. While they may start life from the same pile of barrel blanks, Saiga barrels are made non mil spec for several reasons.

4,200 rounds through my SGL-31. I'm just sayin.
I guess I should throw it away and buy a WASR now?

No, your rifle will continue to funtion just as well as a WASR (no better though). Every time you fire it you can realize that you paid about an extra 50% for a rifle that doesn't work or shoot any better than a WASR. I'm sure you'll sleep better knowing that you finacially supported a company that spent years threatening to cut off any dealer caught selling their product to a Californian. Your money couldn't have gone to a better anti Ca 2A cause if you had sent it straight to Boxer or Finestein.

Will the rifle fire and be accurate every time I pull the trigger? I'm willing to pay the extra $300 and get something reliable. Theres no price on that. I don't want to be tinkering with something that my life depends on (If you see it from this point of view). Especially if it's going to be his first rifle.
$300 doesn't get you a better functioning rifle. It gets you plasic funiture which has a better fit and finish than WASR wood and a rattle can finish on the reciever instead of parkerizing. Personally, I'd prefer a parkerized finish and spending a under $100 on plastic furniture for a WASR. Then, I'd have $200 left over to put towards ammo.

AK all day
03-14-2012, 8:31 PM
You say you want to build and you don't know what a gas block is,
I see alot of trouble in your build. Good luck, you'll need
it. Make sure you have the tools to put one together.

I never said I didn't know what a gas block was.....

AK all day
03-14-2012, 8:38 PM
WOW....epic gun geek interwebs fighting! I'm glad I finally checked this thread out.:D

Dillon Jury it looks like you've already made your decision, but here's my 2 cents.

Arsenal turns out converted saigas at what is actually a decent price when you compare what it would cost to have one converted by a professional...So it's kind of a wash price wise.....Bottom line they are decent rifles.

As you've seen people tend to look down their nose at the WASR, but I'll be damned if they don't work. They just aren't terribly pretty. This is not to say that you can't spruce it up a bit either....Bottom line they are decent rifles.

I could list just about every company marketing an AK the same way(except I.O). It's not a match rifle.....it's a f**kin' AK. Poeple get way too caught up in who made what where. IMO it's not that big of a deal. I will however say this. All the arsenal/saiga fanboys like to think that because the rifle was made in russia that it's somehow superior because that's where the design originated....so f**king what? The first automobile was made in France for christ sake. You don't hear people screaming about how the French make the best cars on the planet do you? The whole "authentic russian made" thing is IMO a giant load of crap.

Thank you so much for CLEAR information. Helped alot

lilbup99
03-14-2012, 8:43 PM
Go for the vepr It is the best!! Second would be a saiga and convert it Third would be a wasr. The arsenal uses a cheep stock, g2 trigger job, mag lock that uses a tool and kvar forend and the cheapest ak grip whats to like about this?? A conversion will let you pick better parts for the same price as an arsenal. Go for it

Ruiner
03-14-2012, 8:47 PM
Sorry but many/most Saiga barrels are not mil spec. Many are not threaded. Most have non mil spec chambers cut in them to keep them from being confussed with real military barrels. While they may start life from the same pile of barrel blanks, Saiga barrels are made non mil spec for several reasons.


This is true, but I'm referring to the Arsenal ones which do have "mil spec" non stepped chambers. They also have their bullet guides riveted in just like how its supposed to be. Regardless of how people feel about Arsenal and their CA policy, they do make a very nice AK, saiga conversion or not. And they do have certain features that differentiate them from simple home saiga conversions (not counting those done by good builders). The point I'm trying to drive here is they are not pieces of crap as some people simply dismiss them as.

zfields
03-14-2012, 8:56 PM
Go for the vepr It is the best!! Second would be a saiga and convert it Third would be a wasr. The arsenal uses a cheep stock, g2 trigger job, mag lock that uses a tool and kvar forend and the cheapest ak grip whats to like about this?? A conversion will let you pick better parts for the same price as an arsenal. Go for it

They use there own branded trigger last time I saw one.

CSACANNONEER
03-14-2012, 9:04 PM
This is true, but I'm referring to the Arsenal ones which do have "mil spec" non stepped chambers. They also have their bullet guides riveted in just like how its supposed to be. Regardless of how people feel about Arsenal and their CA policy, they do make a very nice AK, saiga conversion or not. And they do have certain features that differentiate them from simple home saiga conversions (not counting those done by good builders). The point I'm trying to drive here is they are not pieces of crap as some people simply dismiss them as.

I don't believe all Arsenal conversions don't have stepped chambers. All the true mil spec AK47 front trunions I've seen have integral bullet guides and not ones ones rivetted in.

That said, I don't think anyone is disputing that Arsenal rifles work fine. They don't function any better than A WASR or a Krebs. Speaking of Krebs, Mark uses Saigas as athe base for his rifles too. The differences are that Arsenal is bigger and does more production work while Mark does more custom, made to order stuff. Also, Mark is a nice guy who has only been friendly to me, a Ca resident. Yet, Arsenal reps have been outright rude to me and many other Ca residents in the past. If I wanted to pay a premium for an AK, I'd either have SJgunguy24 build one or have order one Mark Krebs.

FourLoko
03-14-2012, 9:05 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. All you builder pros who want to brag, start selling the damn rifles to us so we can stop having these Arsenal vs WASR threads.

I'm sure plenty of people would rather give their money to a local guy who they know has fun building the rifles.

ns209
03-14-2012, 9:06 PM
Niko is THE KING! Lol thats a collection

Niko does have a bad *** collection, two more ak's and you two are even.

CSACANNONEER
03-14-2012, 9:07 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. All you builder pros who want to brag, start selling the damn rifles to us so we can stop having these Arsenal vs Saiga threads.

I'm sure plenty of people would rather give their money to a local guy who they know has fun building the rifles.

It's not legal (on a federal level) to build guns to sell unless you are licensed to do so and taxes are paid on each build.

AK all day
03-14-2012, 9:15 PM
ghj

AK all day
03-14-2012, 9:16 PM
Ignore that last post.... I WANT to build, but I'm not sure I am capable. Looking like I'm heading to the WASR 10!! :)

arslin
03-14-2012, 9:39 PM
the Century arms Saiga conversion looks good. It is new option... it will be 2 weeks before i get a range report.

NorCalK9.com
03-14-2012, 9:39 PM
Itd be impossible for me to catch up to niko hed have to stop building.
Also half mine are store bought.

ns209
03-14-2012, 9:46 PM
Even tho I have an Arsenal in jail, any build party's planned close to Modesto. Ill drive 60-70 miles im down to try to put one together!!

Sackman1886
03-14-2012, 9:55 PM
I love the furniture on the FirstAK pic! Really nice looking wood.

I_Love_My_.38
03-14-2012, 11:06 PM
Even tho I have an Arsenal in jail, any build party's planned close to Modesto. Ill drive 60-70 miles im down to try to put one together!!

Count me in

Ruiner
03-15-2012, 2:20 AM
I don't believe all Arsenal conversions don't have stepped chambers. All the true mil spec AK47 front trunions I've seen have integral bullet guides and not ones ones rivetted in.


I have a couple of Bulgarian kits and they all have riveted bullet guides. I think what we're seeing is simply differences in manufacturing. The AK74M I was able to observe also had a riveted bullet guide. I don't think those details make the rifle any better or worse tho.

CSACANNONEER
03-15-2012, 6:09 AM
Ignore that last post.... I WANT to build, but I'm not sure I am capable. Looking like I'm heading to the WASR 10!! :)

I know of an 8 year old who built his own AK. I also know plenty of other minors and adults who had no experience with tools before attending a build party but left the party with a nice rifle. Hell, I even know a member here with one arm and one leg who has built a few AKs. I'm sure you will do just fine.

Even tho I have an Arsenal in jail, any build party's planned close to Modesto. Ill drive 60-70 miles im down to try to put one together!!

Lucky you. When I first wanted to attend a build party, I was willing to drive 8hrs in any direction. Unfortunately, there were no build parties anywhere for the forseeable future. At that point in time, it looked like BPs were a thing of the past. I ended up having to host one just to get the help I needed to build a rifle. Sjgunguy24, Nico and 50BMGBOB have all driven 6-8 hours each way just to HELP at a few of my different BPs. 60-70 miles is NOTHING to attend a build party!!!!!!!!!!

tujungatoes
03-15-2012, 7:30 AM
Ignore that last post.... I WANT to build, but I'm not sure I am capable. Looking like I'm heading to the WASR 10!! :)

Oh you're capable. Anyone can do it. From computer nerds to knuckle dragging construction workers(me) to children and amputees. I've seen em all.

CSACANNONEER
03-15-2012, 7:46 AM
Oh you're capable. Anyone can do it. From computer nerds to knuckle dragging construction workers(me) to children and amputees. I've seen em all.

Don't forget girls, Scientists( like Hotrails LOL!) and MDs (like Lomalinda)!

nicoroshi
03-15-2012, 8:44 AM
Agree with toes and CSA.
The last AK team BP I attended even saw a pregnant lady build a nice ak74.
You can handle it.

Cunha
03-15-2012, 8:46 AM
Either buy an Arsenal, or go to a build party that will be heat treating the whole receiver not just spot heat treating.

Make sure you buy yourself a real combloc chrome lined barrel if you go to a build party. Then you will have the best possible setup.

SxB
03-15-2012, 8:52 AM
Finally this thread is heading in a good direction. You just missed a build party in concord that Chiz hosted. He'll probably do another one in a few months. Plus there are a lot of guys on here who have the tools and the know how and will let you come over and use their tools and help you. Lots of good people here.

NorCalK9.com
03-15-2012, 9:27 AM
@cunha
As long as the stress points are treated on the reciever youre good to go!

tujungatoes
03-15-2012, 11:35 AM
Either buy an Arsenal, or go to a build party that will be heat treating the whole receiver not just spot heat treating.

Make sure you buy yourself a real combloc chrome lined barrel if you go to a build party. Then you will have the best possible setup.

AFAIK no one has ever had a BP where they did full receiver heat treating. It's way too time consuming and generally unnecessary. Also there is nothing wrong with a quality us made barrel.

949S_GP100
03-15-2012, 11:52 AM
WASR!

Was my first AK bought a WASR 10/63 double stack, inspected it at turners before purchasing numbers matched up no canted sight. Spent $450 on the gun and touched up the furniture and 10k rds later still not one issue.

russt
03-15-2012, 12:06 PM
949s gp100 I was wondering how you finished your wasr stock. I just bought a wasr and am interested in possibly refinishing it

949S_GP100
03-15-2012, 1:58 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=321453
^^This If you have a WASR more than likely you can skip the stripping process and just focus on the sanding and refinishing portion. And Remember the Butt Stock can be stuck in pretty tight dont be afraid to use some elbow grease to get it outta there.
And then post pics of the finished product.

Che762x39
03-15-2012, 4:18 PM
I am loving my WASR single stack. It is spot on from day 1.

Thanks everyone I learned a lot today from all the posts.

hyeg35
03-15-2012, 4:20 PM
I love my Arsenal SGL-21. Shoots smooth and accurate. Fit and finish is great. If I had more experience with gunsmithing I probably would have gone with a kit or conversion, but I just got my tax return and didn't want to mess with it.

BTW - Go with RifleGear.com - Excellent dudes to work with and super friendly.

http://i.imgur.com/HenSol.jpg (http://imgur.com/HenSo)

My next AK will be milled and will retain that "original" look.

Good Luck!

FiveSeven
03-15-2012, 4:28 PM
That being said......
I have a hard time believing that a screwed on bullet guide, set screwed hand guard retainer, plastic plugged holes in receiver extra riveted/ screwed on trigger guard (as opposed to the one piece all riveted of the actual AK47) comes anywhere near a rifle built from An Actual Demilled AK47
Granted you have a fully heat treated receiver on a converted Siaga but what forces does the receiver actually handle???
The hammer/ trigger spring.
The recoil spring.
The Axis pin(s) rotation.
Ejector tip.
I would bet that a spot heat treated home built receiver would hold up just as well to those forces as a fully heat treated Siaga receiver (Actually don't have to bet. I know it can, and does).

I'm lost in all this..... Maybe I'm missing something....:confused:

Screwed in bullet guide if done right is permanent and not any different then welded one or build in one. It does not absorb any great force from function. Screwed in with permanent lock-tite and pressed against chamber part it won't be going anywhere as there are no weak link.

Screws instead of rivets on trunnion absorb all the recoil and if anything they will fail and I also don't believe in using screws instead of rivets but this has nothing to do with Saiga.

Trigger guard is the same as bullet guide, if permanently screwed in it will last as long as riveted one and again it does not absorb any force during cycling. It also rests on two opposite points under spring tension so for sure it will never come loose, not even close.

What forces do receiver handles? You should know this. All the recoil force is contain withing receiver, front and rear. If not properly heat treated or wrong rivets are used the rifle will warp or fall apart or even stretch, All because bad receiver and rivets. But hey, I don't need to explain this to you.
Fully heat treated receiver is superior then spot treated is actually common sense. AK Receiver is not a box but a convertible and rigidity in entire heat treated receiver is superior not only after years of use but it's superior if your rifle get run over by something (like ATV or similar).


Now not to knock the Siaga conversion route as it is a viable solution for a lot of people, and will produce a rifle that will be functional.
True, and they're not any different or worse then any other good AKs.

Would I pay Arsenal to do this conversion that i could do myself for FAR cheaper with simple tools I can find around my house?
NO
Same here, Especially if it's true that they pull original rivets out.

I will not own a Siaga conversion for the same reason that I will not do a screw build (although that's how I started building ).
That fastener can come loose.
A rivet will not.

What fastener on a Saiga can come loose? After many conversions I've yet to see ANYTHING on Saiga come loose.
Apples and hand grenades, screw build has nothing in common with Saiga factory riveted receiver.

This is my question since someone here kept dodging the same question.
How is home bent sheet metal and your own barrel is superior to Saigas factory receiver with already properly installed barrel?

How is it superior or better? Because in the face of common sense it does not. Authentic look itself (be it as minor as it is) does not trump functionality and functionality-reliability is what this tool is all about.

I'm not knocking home builds and I bet it's a great rewarding hobby but stating that home builds are superior imo crosses the line of truth and unreal fanaticism.

tujungatoes
03-15-2012, 5:46 PM
Home builds CAN be superior in that we home builders can(and often do) take more time and care fitting and assembling our rifles than is possible in a commercial production environment.

There's nothing wrong with sheetmetal bent at home...I don't see what your aversion to that is. Do you think the sheetmetal is made somehow better or worse by the location in which it's bent? Do you think that someone who doesn't work in a factory is incapable of properly installing and headspacing a rifle barrel?

For someone who says they're not knocking homebuilds you sure seem pretty condecending and bigoted towards them.

FiveSeven
03-15-2012, 6:08 PM
Home builds CAN be superior in that we home builders can(and often do) take more time and care fitting and assembling our rifles than is possible in a commercial production environment.

There's nothing wrong with sheetmetal bent at home...I don't see what your aversion to that is. Do you think the sheetmetal is made somehow better or worse by the location in which it's bent? Do you think that someone who doesn't work in a factory is incapable of properly installing and headspacing a rifle barrel?

For someone who says they're not knocking homebuilds you sure seem pretty condecending and bigoted towards them.

Wrong, I never said home build if done right and with quality parts are worse then factory rifle. It can be made just as well.
Nothing wrong with home builds.

But I do keep reading on how home builds are superior or better then factory rifle, and like mentioned before its just plain nonsense and anyone who's subscribes to that is a dishonest fanatic and nothing less.
Were talking functionality and reliability of a rifle here and nothing more.

NorCalK9.com
03-15-2012, 6:28 PM
Here we go again. How many of your arsenals/saigas are even past 10k rounds? Reliability? Like I said before the builds I have 3 are well past 10k rounds and the wasr has been passed 10k. Never a prob with aby of them.
Your sitting here arguing with toes and niko both may a say have forgotten more than most if us will ever understand about the ak.
My proofs in the pudding, my saigas everyone has failed at one time or another yet the wasr and builds i've done have yet to fail. And most were proudly built with niko is his mothers attic not basement lmfao

tujungatoes
03-15-2012, 6:37 PM
Wrong, I never said home build if done right and with quality parts are worse then factory rifle. It can be made just as well.
Nothing wrong with home builds.

But I do keep reading on how home builds are superior or better then factory rifle, and like mentioned before its just plain nonsense and anyone who's subscribes to that is a dishonest fanatic and nothing less.
Were talking functionality and reliability of a rifle here and nothing more.

Didn't I just explain how they can be better?...was there some part of that you didn't get?

Let's try another example...A friend of mine has a sweet custom 1911 made by Les Baer as well as several one of a kind STI competition pistols. Are you saying they're not better than say a springfield milspec 1911 assembly line gun? This is not to say that the people at springfield don't make a fine pistol(because they do), but much more time and attention goes into a custom built gun. If you can't understand how that can make it a superior firearm then I'd say you're hopeless.

atakacorp
03-15-2012, 6:46 PM
Here we go again. How many of your arsenals/saigas are even past 10k rounds? Reliability? Like I said before the builds I have 3 are well past 10k rounds and the wasr has been passed 10k. Never a prob with aby of them.
Your sitting here arguing with toes and niko both may a say have forgotten more than most if us will ever understand about the ak.
My proofs in the pudding, my saigas everyone has failed at one time or another yet the wasr and builds i've done have yet to fail. And most were proudly built with niko is his mothers attic not basement lmfao

Com'on,man I love AKs(LOVE!!),never failed(jammed)WASR,please..,Have Saiga 3000+rounds, never failed;)

AK all day
03-15-2012, 6:47 PM
Well guys breaking news. I went to Turners at their sanberadino location today and looked at the good ol' WASR 10 they had on sale. i was not impressed with the price ($539) but what can you do.... i looked at the shelf rifle and I was not impressed...at all. It was the Worst possible WASR turnout. It was missing the cleaning rod, not one of the serial numbers matched, and the front sight was canted. This was my first encounter with ANY AK rifle aside from the Arsenal. I was discouraged but ended up buying one from them. I did NOT buy the one I looked at however. i was told that they use that rifle as display and then will order guns from their warehouse as they are purchased, and that if the one I got had something wrong with it, they would exchange it at no cost. Is me buying the rifle without first looking at it a bad decision? Why was that WASR everything bad? Just bad luck or what? Thanks guys. In the future I will most defiantly attempt a build of my own, but wanted to get basics and knowledge from a store bought first. Thanks

atakacorp
03-15-2012, 6:49 PM
Wrong, I never said home build if done right and with quality parts are worse then factory rifle. It can be made just as well.
Nothing wrong with home builds.

But I do keep reading on how home builds are superior or better then factory rifle, and like mentioned before its just plain nonsense and anyone who's subscribes to that is a dishonest fanatic and nothing less.
Were talking functionality and reliability of a rifle here and nothing more.

+1 with fiveseven

NorCalK9.com
03-15-2012, 6:54 PM
@ atakorp
I'm glad you havnt had a problem but every one if my saigas except the 308 has failed in my case.
And I repeat out of the 3 that are over 10k never once have they failed yet!
@Op congrats on your purchase!

ns209
03-15-2012, 6:55 PM
Didn't I just explain how they can be better?...was there some part of that you didn't get?

Let's try another example...A friend of mine has a sweet custom 1911 made by Les Baer as well as several one of a kind STI competition pistols. Are you saying they're not better than say a springfield milspec 1911 assembly line gun? This is not to say that the people at springfield don't make a fine pistol(because they do), but much more time and attention goes into a custom built gun. If you can't understand how that can make it a superior firearm then I'd say you're hopeless.

Yeah but you're argument is kinda weak, the discussion in this thread has been Arsenal's are not worth the money, and the WASR or home build is. You can buy more than one springfield with the money you'll buy the Les Baer with, and Les Baer are not build in garages. Btw I cant wait to get a chance at building an AK.

FiveSeven
03-15-2012, 7:07 PM
Didn't I just explain how they can be better?...was there some part of that you didn't get?

Let's try another example...A friend of mine has a sweet custom 1911 made by Les Baer as well as several one of a kind STI competition pistols. Are you saying they're not better than say a springfield milspec 1911 assembly line gun? This is not to say that the people at springfield don't make a fine pistol(because they do), but much more time and attention goes into a custom built gun. If you can't understand how that can make it a superior firearm then I'd say you're hopeless.

No you did not.
Your logic if off. It's an AK, its a tool..... It works properly or it does not. Simple as that nothing more nothing less.

ALL factory guns work 100% like they should and no need to spend hours and sweat tinkering, filling and modifying it. It's not a precise delicate instrument and needs all that just so it can function. If anything all that extra "special" care and fitting means it's not build right.
Your custom 1911 is a bad example as most custom high end 1911 are not as reliable and much more picky about ammo as compared to genuine army issue a1.


As for you NorCalK9, everything you post I take wit a grain of salt since I know a thing or two about this subject and sorry to say but I just don't buy you stories.
Nothing personal, this is internet and all.
I to have Saigas rifles that have 1,885,99,979,7K rounds trough them and not a single jam and had WASR's that would jam when I only thought about taking them to the range.:rolleyes:

atakacorp
03-15-2012, 7:09 PM
@ atakorp
I'm glad you havnt had a problem but every one if my saigas except the 308 has failed in my case.
And I repeat out of the 3 that are over 10k never once have they failed yet!
@Op congrats on your purchase!

Man ,you shoot a lot:43:

zfields
03-15-2012, 7:11 PM
If it goes Bang, and goes in a relative straight line (or should I say, gentle arc), who cares.

Screw arsenal purely based on political reasons.



(PS, I can piss farther then any of you!)

atakacorp
03-15-2012, 7:16 PM
If it goes Bang, and goes in a relative straight line (or should I say, gentle arc), who cares.

Screw arsenal purely based on political reasons.



(PS, I can piss farther then any of you!)

Thank you Z.:43:
Let start the thread "what should i buy AK or AR?":43:

tujungatoes
03-15-2012, 7:22 PM
Yeah but you're argument is kinda weak, the discussion in this thread has been Arsenal's are not worth the money, and the WASR or home build is. You can buy more than one springfield with the money you'll buy the Les Baer with, and Les Baer are not build in garages. Btw I cant wait to get a chance at building an AK.

You're confusing me with some other people in this thread. I've already stated that I think the arsenal conversions are actually decent well priced conversions given the cost of having the same work done by someone else, and that the WASR is a decent rifle that is widely underrated.

Also, while it's true you can buy several good pistols for the price of a high end 1911. The reality is that just because you can get more of them for the same price doesn't mean they aren't better built guns. If you follow that line of thinking then YOU are in fact arguing that the arsenal rifles are overpriced since you could buy 2 WASR's for the price of some arsenal rifles.

Oh, and while I know Les Baer pistols are made in a great dedicated shop now I'd be willing to bet the man started out working in his garage. I also happen to know of a guy named Randall(ar15barrels) that does some very nice custom rifle work...out of his garage.:p

(PS, I can piss farther then any of you!)

Wait till I've had a few beers.:D

NorCalK9.com
03-15-2012, 7:22 PM
@fiveseven
Thats cool bro, I dont believe half the crao I read either, but with a grain of salt, I shoot alot!
Whether it be killing coyotes, squirrels, cinder block, water jugs, soda cans, zombie targets, pumpkins, etc etc i'm bored from 10am-5pm so I shoot everyday whether it be ak's, my glock, beretta, hipoint995, sig mosquito or whatever its all I have to do out here. but theres a good amount of people on this forum who have shot with me. Anyways this thread is just about done. So lets all be grateful that the guns we own work well enough for us to hate eachother for lmao!

vintagedude88
03-15-2012, 7:29 PM
Well guys breaking news. I went to Turners at their sanberadino location today and looked at the good ol' WASR 10 they had on sale. i was not impressed with the price ($539) but what can you do.... i looked at the shelf rifle and I was not impressed...at all. It was the Worst possible WASR turnout. It was missing the cleaning rod, not one of the serial numbers matched, and the front sight was canted. This was my first encounter with ANY AK rifle aside from the Arsenal. I was discouraged but ended up buying one from them. I did NOT buy the one I looked at however. i was told that they use that rifle as display and then will order guns from their warehouse as they are purchased, and that if the one I got had something wrong with it, they would exchange it at no cost. Is me buying the rifle without first looking at it a bad decision? Why was that WASR everything bad? Just bad luck or what? Thanks guys. In the future I will most defiantly attempt a build of my own, but wanted to get basics and knowledge from a store bought first. Thanks

If you haven't DROS'd it. Go back and have them apply your deposit towards an M10-762. Its a much better rifle and only $60 more.

Here's what it looks like.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQlf9AEObOypLNfTFbdv63pvQB4NvG6-DIfk0us84mT_tSF2HZdEQ

atakacorp
03-15-2012, 7:32 PM
@fiveseven
Thats cool bro, I dont believe half the crao I read either, but with a grain of salt, I shoot alot!
Whether it be killing coyotes, squirrels, cinder block, water jugs, soda cans, zombie targets, pumpkins, etc etc i'm bored from 10am-5pm so I shoot everyday whether it be ak's, my glock, beretta, hipoint995, sig mosquito or whatever its all I have to do out here. but theres a good amount of people on this forum who have shot with me. Anyways this thread is just about done. So lets all be grateful that the guns we own work well enough for us to hate eachother for lmao!

Amen,brother:)

e36mike
03-15-2012, 7:32 PM
Well guys breaking news. I went to Turners at their sanberadino location today and looked at the good ol' WASR 10 they had on sale. i was not impressed with the price ($539) but what can you do.... i looked at the shelf rifle and I was not impressed...at all. It was the Worst possible WASR turnout. It was missing the cleaning rod, not one of the serial numbers matched, and the front sight was canted. This was my first encounter with ANY AK rifle aside from the Arsenal. I was discouraged but ended up buying one from them. I did NOT buy the one I looked at however. i was told that they use that rifle as display and then will order guns from their warehouse as they are purchased, and that if the one I got had something wrong with it, they would exchange it at no cost. Is me buying the rifle without first looking at it a bad decision? Why was that WASR everything bad? Just bad luck or what? Thanks guys. In the future I will most defiantly attempt a build of my own, but wanted to get basics and knowledge from a store bought first. Thanks
Hopefully the one u get is a good one. I thought they all didnt come with cleaning rods? Did it have the rail for the scope mount ?

AK all day
03-15-2012, 7:35 PM
Yes it did Mike, but I was mainly concerned about the serial numbers and front sight.

NorCalK9.com
03-15-2012, 7:38 PM
When you say the front site was canted, you mean the the whole front site base was to the side rite?

AK all day
03-15-2012, 7:44 PM
When you say the front site was canted, you mean the the whole front site base was to the side rite?

No the sight post was almost like bent. Just the small piece.

tujungatoes
03-15-2012, 7:46 PM
Dillon Jury I got caught up in the great discussion you sparked and forgot to say congratulations on your purchase.:thumbsup: I hope you enjoy it. If you don't get a cleaning rod with your rifle send me a pm I'll dig one out of my stash and mail it to you.

No you did not.
Your logic if off. It's an AK, its a tool..... It works properly or it does not. Simple as that nothing more nothing less.

I can see you're dead set on arguing against me...and it seems like you're starting to get heated so I'll duck out of this thread after this.

If an AK is just a tool and all tools are the same as long as they work....go find a mechanic and ask them about the difference between say a snap-on or matco ratchet and a crescent wrench from harbor freight. They'll both turn bolts just fine, but one is definitely a better tool. Anyone who says otherwise is "a dishonest fanatic and nothing less"

joash
03-15-2012, 7:46 PM
Not seeing many featureless AKs on this thread.

Why does Atlantic Arms offer so many different AKs, but so few for CA (aside from the obvious ones that are too short etc.)?

Anyone ever remove the mag lock to go featureless? Is it easy to do?

Is Arsenal SGL-33 the best AK-74 out there without spending megabucks? Are SGL-31 & SGL-33 the same thing?

atakacorp
03-15-2012, 8:03 PM
Dillon Jury I got caught up in the great discussion you sparked and forgot to say congratulations on your purchase.:thumbsup: I hope you enjoy it. If you don't get a cleaning rod with your rifle send me a pm I'll dig one out of my stash and mail it to you.



I can see you're dead set on arguing against me...and it seems like you're starting to get heated so I'll duck out of this thread after this.

If an AK is just a tool and all tools are the same as long as they work....go find a mechanic and ask them about the difference between say a snap-on or matco ratchet and a crescent wrench from harbor freight. They'll both turn bolts just fine, but one is definitely a better tool. Anyone who says otherwise is "a dishonest fanatic and nothing less"


LOL ,both tools made by IZMASHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:43:
I’d rather have IZMASH made Saiga than an AK kit made by one leg one arm ,pregnant, blind CG member:43:
Com'on man just let it go,BTW do you want to date my sister:43::43:

OOps,not you ,I ment "necoroshi" the guy with all that AKs :)

nicoroshi
03-15-2012, 8:12 PM
Fiveseven,

[Sigh....]

I will not argue with an opinion.
You have yours, and I have mine, and we are both entitled to them.

Just a couple of questions for those that are still forming their own opinion on the subject.

1.
Would you rather have this>>>
http://www.dinzagarms.com/saiga_762x39/large/akbor1_2.jpg
Or this>>>
http://aa-ok.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/a/k/ak407_1.jpg

This>>>
http://www.dinzagarms.com/saiga_762x39/large/x39_bg_round_inst.jpg
Or this>>>
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3702/img0612vv.jpg

3. What did Mister Klashnikov use on his AK47 for the bullet guide?


Now for the real question.
Which of these is the Heat treated receiver piece?
http://firingsquad.us/wp-forum/gallery/4-150312225404.jpeg

Give up?
They all are from fully heat treated receivers, and were pulled, and twisted by hand with a pair of vice grips (to remove the trunnions from demilled kits).


Fully heat treated receiver is superior then spot treated is actually common sense. AK Receiver is not a box but a convertible and rigidity in entire heat treated receiver is superior not only after years of use but it's superior if your rifle get run over by something (like ATV or similar).

I double dog dare you to run your converted siaga over with an ATV.

My best guess (and I have been a union sheet metal worker for the last 25 years) is both the spot heat treated, and fully heat treated receivers would be toast.

As for what kind of force the receiver of an ak actually takes perhaps you should ask Winn R from Gunco.

He is an engineer, and built an AK with toothpicks instead of rivets to prove a point.
The forces on the receiver are minimal (it survived 3 shots with toothpicks holding the trunnions).

Go ahead.....Google it. I'll wait

The real force is contained by the bolt, locking lugs, and chamber. Not the receiver.

There's my homework. anyone else care to submit theirs?

NorCalK9.com
03-15-2012, 8:15 PM
In the end none of us are gonna 100% agree. So lets just agree on 2 things.
1. We have very good experiences with the rifles of our choice!
2. Theyre all vetter than AR's!
Btw im selling or trading my AR lol

atakacorp
03-15-2012, 8:22 PM
Fiveseven,

[Sigh....]

I will not argue with an opinion.
You have yours, and I have mine, and we are both entitled to them.

Just a couple of questions for those that are still forming their own opinion on the subject.

1.
Would you rather have this>>>
http://www.dinzagarms.com/saiga_762x39/large/akbor1_2.jpg
Or this>>>
http://aa-ok.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/a/k/ak407_1.jpg

This>>>
http://www.dinzagarms.com/saiga_762x39/large/x39_bg_round_inst.jpg
Or this>>>
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3702/img0612vv.jpg

3. What did Mister Klashnikov use on his AK47 for the bullet guide?


Now for the real question.
Which of these is the Heat treated receiver piece?
http://firingsquad.us/wp-forum/gallery/4-150312225404.jpeg

Give up?
They all are from fully heat treated receivers, and were pulled, and twisted by hand with a pair of vice grips (to remove the trunnions from demilled kits).



I double dog dare you to run your converted siaga over with an ATV.

My best guess (and I have been a union sheet metal worker for the last 25 years) is both the spot heat treated, and fully heat treated receivers would be toast.

As for what kind of force the receiver of an ak actually takes perhaps you should ask Winn R from Gunco.

He is an engineer, and built an AK with toothpicks instead of rivets to prove a point.
The forces on the receiver are minimal (it survived 3 shots with toothpicks holding the trunnions).

Go ahead.....Google it. I'll wait

The real force is contained by the bolt, locking lugs, and chamber. Not the receiver.

There's my homework. anyone else care to submit theirs?

Very good to know:43:,one big mistake ,not a Mister TOVARISH KALASHNIKOV

nicoroshi
03-15-2012, 8:26 PM
Very good to know:43:,one big mistake ,not a Mister TOVARISH KALASHNIKOV

I stand corrected.
And BTW I have seen your sister.
Not interested :p

atakacorp
03-15-2012, 8:30 PM
In the end none of us are gonna 100% agree. So lets just agree on 2 things.
1. We have very good experiences with the rifles of our choice!
2. Theyre all vetter than AR's!
Btw im selling or trading my AR lol

and I thought ak.com guys are touchy:cheers2:
What do you want for ar? just kidding:43:

zfields
03-15-2012, 8:32 PM
Nico, In defense of the Saiga/Arsenal crew.

Most are not using a bolt on retainer, and your comparing the bullet guide to a milled receiver gun. A lot of people doing riveted guides are at least making an effort to make them flush to the face.

ns209
03-15-2012, 8:33 PM
In the end none of us are gonna 100% agree. So lets just agree on 2 things.
1. We have very good experiences with the rifles of our choice!
2. Theyre all vetter than AR's! Btw im selling or trading my AR lol

LOL Thats a whole other thread

nicoroshi
03-15-2012, 8:34 PM
Nico, In defense of the Saiga/Arsenal crew.

Most are not using a bolt on retainer, and your comparing the bullet guide to a milled receiver gun. A lot of people doing riveted guides are at least making an effort to make them flush to the face.


Ahhhh, So it comes down to who built it, and the time and attention put into that build.

Guess Toes was right.

BTW I did the rivet in that milled receiver. It's on my M76. :D

atakacorp
03-15-2012, 8:36 PM
I stand corrected.
And BTW I have seen your sister.
Not interested :p

LOL, Right ,I dont think she will go out with you ether she not in to guns, and I guess this, the only possessions that you have:43:

zfields
03-15-2012, 8:36 PM
Ahhhh, So it comes down to who built it, and the time an attention put into that build.

Guess Toes was right.

Hey now, Im not on either side here.


You can take something great, half *** F**k with it, and turn it into crap.

On the flip side, you can take a pile of parts, and make it some thing great.

nicoroshi
03-15-2012, 8:42 PM
Just adding fuel to the fire bro.

Bottom line:
Siaga, WASR, Homebuild will all be fun to shoot.

Oh, and congrats to the OP on his first (of many) AK style rifles.

SURVIVOR619
03-15-2012, 9:06 PM
Nicoroshi, that bullet guide shot looks quite nice! Impressive...

AK all day
03-15-2012, 9:15 PM
:68:
:gun_bandana:
:56:
:63:
I can hardly wait.... hell if building takes these horrible 10 days out of the picture, then I'm in.

NorCalK9.com
03-15-2012, 9:41 PM
It does I just finished another amd65 with a fixed stock and wood upper and lower habdguards. Came out very nice. Saturday i'll be building a 16in amd65 kit with fixed stock and handguards too lol. Dont know what i'm building next week maybe another ak74 or polish underfolder.

AK all day
03-15-2012, 9:44 PM
What kind of stain do you usually do on your wood, if at all. I'm looking into doing it to mine, but am not sure on the color.

ilovemyar
03-15-2012, 10:07 PM
This thread is making me want to build my own AK.. Which is probably going to be a polish underfolder.

S470FM
03-15-2012, 11:22 PM
get an arsenal. I have an SGL 33 with a Bulgy metal folding stock (pinned), a Tapco G2 single hook trigger, a solar tactical BB and a chrome-lined brake. Length of pull is just right and the gun is top notch. as others have said, an AK is an AK, no need for brand bashing

CSACANNONEER
03-16-2012, 6:13 AM
get an arsenal. I have an SGL 33 with a Bulgy metal folding stock (pinned), a Tapco G2 single hook trigger, a solar tactical BB and a chrome-lined brake. Length of pull is just right and the gun is top notch. as others have said, an AK is an AK, no need for brand bashing

Maybe you haven't read this thread. Arsenal has a long history of being anti Ca 2A. But, if you really WANT to support a company that proactively took action to fight the whole OLL movement, it's your choice. I'd rather see your money go straight to Boxer's next campaign fund though.

FiveSeven
03-16-2012, 7:06 AM
Fiveseven,

Just a couple of questions for those that are still forming their own opinion on the subject.

1.
Would you rather have this>>>

Or this>>>
Both are fine if done properly and there's other options for Saiga, bolt on is just a quicker option. Newer Saigas have traditional hand guards as well.
Purely cosmetic if anything.

This>>>
Or this>>>
I see no difference from a functional/reliability standpoint.

3. What did Mister Klashnikov use on his AK47 for the bullet guide?
Then by that way of though you should have nothing less then select fire AK.

Now for the real question.
Which of these is the Heat treated receiver piece?
Give up?
They all are from fully heat treated receivers, and were pulled, and twisted by hand with a pair of vice grips (to remove the trunnions from demilled kits).
That's a silly example, working with metal all this time you should know that properly heat treated steel is stronger then non, if anything non heat treated ones would have been done with MUCH less effort.
AK receivers were not designed to be ripped open with vice grips but stay in the form attached to the rest of the rifle.

I double dog dare you to run your converted siaga over with an ATV.

My best guess (and I have been a union sheet metal worker for the last 25 years) is both the spot heat treated, and fully heat treated receivers would be toast.
Here's something heavier then ATV runs over an AK and it still functions.
Bad and old video I know but it does proves a point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEap9cP2-KU

As for what kind of force the receiver of an ak actually takes perhaps you should ask Winn R from Gunco.
He is an engineer, and built an AK with toothpicks instead of rivets to prove a point.
The forces on the receiver are minimal (it survived 3 shots with toothpicks holding the trunnions).

Go ahead.....Google it. I'll wait

The real force is contained by the bolt, locking lugs, and chamber. Not the receiver.

There's my homework. anyone else care to submit theirs?

Interesting.
So, what about all the stories, pictures of Lancaster rifles with destroyed rivets after firing so many rounds and rear trunnion literally being pushed out of the receiver?
What happens when the bolt carrier hits the rear trunnion during cycling?
Doesn't that exert some force on the rear trunnion then transitioning to rivets- receiver - front trunnion?

NorCalK9.com
03-16-2012, 7:26 AM
This thread is still going?
OP bought a rifle, we already concluded none of us are going to agree 100%.
Lets save thus argument for next weeks thread titled "first ak wasr or?????" Lol.

nicoroshi
03-16-2012, 8:49 AM
If the bolt carrier is impacting the Rear trunnion then the rifle is over gassed or the recoil spring is wore out.
The carrier should NOT impact the rear trunnion during cycle.

A fine example of out of spec factory built guns.
Thanks for helping me prove my point :)
I already knew your opinion, and you
Know mine
The questions posed were for those that are still forming their opinion.

As for the AK getting run over
Try that in gravel or concrete
Soft dirt is a bad 'test'

Mamluke
03-16-2012, 11:16 AM
My granny got excited with all that dating talk, says she'll take a man with one leg & one arm .... and if she gets a complete fella, he won't have any limbs if he decides to dump her .... :D


http://h.imagehost.org/0953/191573_dont_mess_old_russian_women_500x500_1_vw.jp g


...... just wondering, any takers? ... :popcorn: ...


......

dbo31
03-16-2012, 12:30 PM
If you haven't DROS'd it. Go back and have them apply your deposit towards an M10-762. Its a much better rifle and only $60 more.

Here's what it looks like.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQlf9AEObOypLNfTFbdv63pvQB4NvG6-DIfk0us84mT_tSF2HZdEQ

Putting one of these in jail tomorrow

STAGE 2
03-16-2012, 1:10 PM
I'll never understand people who bash arsenals. Its one thing to not like the company for their prior practices but that really doesn't have anything to do with their rifles.

Arsenal makes a quality product, period. There really isn't arguing this point. I dont put much faith in anything guns and ammo has to say, but in their AK mag edition they had a couple former spetsnaz review all of the most popular AK's and each said the arsenal had the best fit and finish and felt 'just like the real thing'. Again I dont think thats worth much but when you combine that with the fact that arsenals display marginally better accuracy than other brands and are the brand with consistently the best reliability for many people its worth the money.

This isn't to say that you cant have the same quality with a homebuild, but its going to require a bunch of time, you'll have to source the right parts, and once you're done you will have spent almost the same amount of money.

If homebuilding makes you happy, then thats great. But there isn't anything wrong with buying an arsenal especially for people who dont have all the time in the world. I'd rather be shooting than wrenching.

Moonshine
03-16-2012, 1:18 PM
What I'm noticing is that the more complete the part that harder it is to find... You can still fi d lots of barrels and stripped uppers to build your own upper, but finding a complete upper is harder. Likewise a complete rifle is harder to find right now and much more costly than making your own.

zfields
03-16-2012, 1:28 PM
AKs dont have uppers and lowers...

CSACANNONEER
03-16-2012, 2:23 PM
I'll never understand people who bash arsenals. Its one thing to not like the company for their prior practices but that really doesn't have anything to do with their rifles.

Arsenal makes a quality product, period. There really isn't arguing this point. I dont put much faith in anything guns and ammo has to say, but in their AK mag edition they had a couple former spetsnaz review all of the most popular AK's and each said the arsenal had the best fit and finish and felt 'just like the real thing'. Again I dont think thats worth much but when you combine that with the fact that arsenals display marginally better accuracy than other brands and are the brand with consistently the best reliability for many people its worth the money.

This isn't to say that you cant have the same quality with a homebuild, but its going to require a bunch of time, you'll have to source the right parts, and once you're done you will have spent almost the same amount of money.

If homebuilding makes you happy, then thats great. But there isn't anything wrong with buying an arsenal especially for people who dont have all the time in the world. I'd rather be shooting than wrenching.

I haven't seen one post in this thread that states anything different. Of course, like anything else, a bad product can and does slip through every now and again but, they will make it right. Now, Arsenal Saiga conversions might "feel like the real thing" however, they obviously do use non mil-spec parts. Therefore, they are not "the real thing". They are what they are. They function the same (not any better) as any decently made AK or AK clone. Their fit and finish is only OK. The "fit" is easy to accomplish using plastic furnture. Their "finish" leaves a lot to be desired unless, you like rattlecan BBQ paint finish on bare metal (I prefer parkerizing under paint or just parkerizing). Homebuilds can have far superior fit and finish. How hard is it for some of you to understand this? If I'm making something for myself, time is not money and I can work on it until I'm satisfied. But, if I'm manufacturing a product for a profit, I will just make sure each product is up to my lowest standards. Arsenal or any other successful manufacturing bussiness has to run this way. So, homebuilt anythings (including AKs and Saiga conversions) will often be BETTER THAN profesionally produced products. As far as "sourcing the right parts" that's part of the reason some do not like Arsenal. Instead of using authentic parts, they make parts that will do but are not "right".

CSACANNONEER
03-16-2012, 2:24 PM
AKs dont have uppers and lowers...

Sure they do. Haven't you ever heard of UPPER and LOWER handgaurds?

zfields
03-16-2012, 2:30 PM
Sure they do. Haven't you ever heard of UPPER and LOWER handgaurds?

Well a big pffft to you buddy! :p

FiveSeven
03-16-2012, 5:30 PM
If the bolt carrier is impacting the Rear trunnion then the rifle is over gassed or the recoil spring is wore out.
The carrier should NOT impact the rear trunnion during cycle.
Interesting, I always though that it does when shooting any AK. If anything I though if it didn't then the recoil would be rubber-stretch smooth, quieter mid cycling to.
A fine example of out of spec factory built guns.
Lancaster is not a factory. Romanian WASR's and Saigas are.
I don't even consider Arsenal as factory when comes to their Saigas... more like a big converting shop (Lancaster is more like a zoo).

I already knew your opinion, and you
Know mine
The questions posed were for those that are still forming their opinion.
Got it.
As for the AK getting run over
Try that in gravel or concrete
Soft dirt is a bad 'test'
Looks like a mixed gravel road to me. It wasn't soft wet dirt in the field either.
I have a feeling that rifle wouldn't have survived if it didn't have "properly" built receiver.

tujungatoes
03-16-2012, 7:19 PM
:popcorn:

nicoroshi
03-16-2012, 9:20 PM
Interesting, I always though that it does when shooting any AK. If anything I though if it didn't then the recoil would be rubber-stretch smooth, quieter mid cycling to.

.

wQPSJhvz8ec
Couple rounds the carrier just touches the rear trunnion but most do not.
If yours does it's over gassed or needs a new recoil spring.

This is the kind of knowledge that comes from truly understanding the AK platform. A knowledge one learns from building them.

AK all day
03-16-2012, 9:26 PM
Did I make a mistake buying a WASR? Just starting to doubt myself after seeing numerous videos saying they are just absolute $h**. I'm only nervous because I have not seen it yet.

CSACANNONEER
03-16-2012, 9:33 PM
I've never had an issue with mine. I really doubt you made a mistake.

RLTW
03-16-2012, 11:23 PM
Comparing the different topics that have been brought up...
1. Aresnal SGL23-61
2. Saiga IZ 332 100
3. WASR 10
4. Home built

1. SGL23-61
http://www.k-var.com/shop/images/D/SGL23_BLACK_keyi.jpg

Saiga rifle, 7.62x39 caliber, California compliant, US made black polymer furniture, Warsaw Pact length buttstock, compensator,chrome lined hammer forged barrel, 10-round US made magazine, non-detachable magazine, tool for magazine, 16" barrel, front sight block with bayonet lug, accessory lug, 24x1.5mm right-hand threads, stainless steel heatshield, US made double stage fire control group, 1000m rear sight, cleaning rod, scope rail.
$829.00


2. Saiga IZ 332 100 Series AK47 Rifle

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/data/default/images/catalog/large/IZ132MODEL2.jpg

Saiga IZ 332 100 Series Russian AK47 Rifle 762 x 39 Semi auto rifle imported from Russia .The Saiga rifles are intended for hunting big and medium-sized game under different climatic conditions. The rifles are developed on the base of the venerable Russian Kalashnikov assault rifle and chambered for 7.62x39 . These rifles are brand new & come with 16 inch chrome lined barrels , side mount rail for mounting optics, 1 five round mag & all new construction in the famous Russian IZHMASH Arsenal. These are affordably priced Russian AK 47 rifles and are legal in most states with Assault Weapon Bans in place .They do not use standard AK mags but will work with the Sure fire 30 round hi cap magazines .

$459.00
http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/Cart?sfs=d9929976

STOCK KVAR NATO LENGTH BLACK $49.95
AK74 STYLE BULGARIAN 24MM BRAKE $29.95
BULLET GUIDE- ROUND TRUNNION 7.62X39 WITH DRILL AND TAP SET $18.95
GRIP AK/SAIGA AK47 STYLE BAKELITE ORANGE $11.49
GRIP AK/SAIGA GRIP SCREW AND BUSHING SET $6.95
TRIGGER GROUP-SAIGA/AK-47 SINGLE HOOK G2 $29.99
$156.23

615.23 to buy the parts and do it yourself. Compared to the Arsenal AK Saving you $213...


3.Romanian AK-47 WASR10/63M Rifle, 7.62x39 caliber
http://www.jgsales.com/product_thumb.php?img=images/3448-romanianak-47wasr1063mrifle762x39caliber.jpg&w=240&h=180

These are 7.62x39 caliber semi auto rifles from Romania. Feature a laminated wood military stock and forend, black synthetic pistol grip, slant cut muzzle brake, bayonet lug, bayonet and one 30rd magazine (may be steel or polymer). Accepts all standard double stack mags. This firearm was assembled by Century Arms International using both new US made parts and original used surplus parts. May or may not include cleaning rod.
$489.95
WASR will save you $125.28
So if you go with the WASR you need to add the cost of a mag button as well as getting it shipped to CA. Turners usually carries WASR's.

4.
If you decide to build your own, kits are going from anywhere up to $354 for a chrome lined barrel, not to include receiver and other build costs.

Fherot
03-16-2012, 11:51 PM
This thread has just pushed me over the edge of wanting to home build an AK 5.45...

STAGE 2
03-17-2012, 1:04 AM
So, homebuilt anythings (including AKs and Saiga conversions) will often be BETTER THAN profesionally produced products.

Nah. This just isn't true. It can happen if you have a very good working knowledge of AK gunsmithing, but if you take 10 arsenals and 10 random homebuilds the arsenals are going to have less issues and better accuracy.
The AK may be a tolerant weapons system, but its still a firearm and as such some technical proficiency is desired.

As far as price I really don't know what the beef is either. No one here would start bashing others because they decided to take their car to a mechanic to get their headgasket replaced even though doing it themselves would save them $500 or more. So why is arsenal overpriced because they add on the cost of labor to their rifles?

I dont see any of you working for free.

Rigma
03-17-2012, 3:05 AM
I just read all 200 posts and overall would call this thread a "win" since like the OP I was considering an AK and felt undereducated and unsure where my money would be best spent.

Do I "know" what the best choice is now? ...no...but I sure as hell learned a lot. I would rather learn about opinions, "facts", knowledge and experience then simply be told what to do and have no idea why I am actually making that choice.

When it comes to guns, knives, cars, golf clubs, computers, women...etc., it is rare to find an overwhelming consensus on the internet that will send you to bed at night 100% sure you made the best/right choice.

And what is the best choice for one, is not necessarily the best for another.

For instance for me, I want an a retail AK (I'll build on the obligatory 2nd when I'm hooked) that resembles the Cold War original (wood stock & forend, slant cut muzzle brake, bayonet lug, etc.) and that at least has some positive feedback. So it will probably be a WASR. I will take that experience and learn from it, and see where I go on the next one.

In closing, thanks OP for asking the same question that was on my mind, and thanks RLTW for the review...it was needed after getting near post 200.

Anyone know of a preferred dealer for a WASR in the Northern end of the state...please no I'm not starting a debate on dealers, its just a simple question!


Comparing the different topics that have been brought up...
1. Aresnal SGL23-61
2. Saiga IZ 332 100
3. WASR 10
4. Home built

1. SGL23-61
http://www.k-var.com/shop/images/D/SGL23_BLACK_keyi.jpg

Saiga rifle, 7.62x39 caliber, California compliant, US made black polymer furniture, Warsaw Pact length buttstock, compensator,chrome lined hammer forged barrel, 10-round US made magazine, non-detachable magazine, tool for magazine, 16" barrel, front sight block with bayonet lug, accessory lug, 24x1.5mm right-hand threads, stainless steel heatshield, US made double stage fire control group, 1000m rear sight, cleaning rod, scope rail.
$829.00


2. Saiga IZ 332 100 Series AK47 Rifle

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/data/default/images/catalog/large/IZ132MODEL2.jpg

Saiga IZ 332 100 Series Russian AK47 Rifle 762 x 39 Semi auto rifle imported from Russia .The Saiga rifles are intended for hunting big and medium-sized game under different climatic conditions. The rifles are developed on the base of the venerable Russian Kalashnikov assault rifle and chambered for 7.62x39 . These rifles are brand new & come with 16 inch chrome lined barrels , side mount rail for mounting optics, 1 five round mag & all new construction in the famous Russian IZHMASH Arsenal. These are affordably priced Russian AK 47 rifles and are legal in most states with Assault Weapon Bans in place .They do not use standard AK mags but will work with the Sure fire 30 round hi cap magazines .

$459.00
http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/Cart?sfs=d9929976

STOCK KVAR NATO LENGTH BLACK $49.95
AK74 STYLE BULGARIAN 24MM BRAKE $29.95
BULLET GUIDE- ROUND TRUNNION 7.62X39 WITH DRILL AND TAP SET $18.95
GRIP AK/SAIGA AK47 STYLE BAKELITE ORANGE $11.49
GRIP AK/SAIGA GRIP SCREW AND BUSHING SET $6.95
TRIGGER GROUP-SAIGA/AK-47 SINGLE HOOK G2 $29.99
$156.23

615.23 to buy the parts and do it yourself. Compared to the Arsenal AK Saving you $213...


3.Romanian AK-47 WASR10/63M Rifle, 7.62x39 caliber
http://www.jgsales.com/product_thumb.php?img=images/3448-romanianak-47wasr1063mrifle762x39caliber.jpg&w=240&h=180

These are 7.62x39 caliber semi auto rifles from Romania. Feature a laminated wood military stock and forend, black synthetic pistol grip, slant cut muzzle brake, bayonet lug, bayonet and one 30rd magazine (may be steel or polymer). Accepts all standard double stack mags. This firearm was assembled by Century Arms International using both new US made parts and original used surplus parts. May or may not include cleaning rod.
$489.95
WASR will save you $125.28
So if you go with the WASR you need to add the cost of a mag button as well as getting it shipped to CA. Turners usually carries WASR's.

4.
If you decide to build your own, kits are going from anywhere up to $354 for a chrome lined barrel, not to include receiver and other build costs.

FiveSeven
03-17-2012, 6:16 AM
wQPSJhvz8ec
Couple rounds the carrier just touches the rear trunnion but most do not.
If yours does it's over gassed or needs a new recoil spring.

This is the kind of knowledge that comes from truly understanding the AK platform. A knowledge one learns from building them.

What stops bolt carrier at the mid (or rear-most) cycle?
Something has to put a stop to it, if not mild hit on the rear trunnion, be it operating rod/spring, bolt carrier or.

Take a look at this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD7palHcaqE) Start at 01:55 and 02:06, look how the bolt carrier hits the trunnion and even jumps up from hitting it.


iD7palHcaqE

Mamluke
03-17-2012, 9:32 AM
Did I make a mistake buying a WASR? Just starting to doubt myself after seeing numerous videos saying they are just absolute $h**. I'm only nervous because I have not seen it yet.

....


http://www.colinbmerry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/when-in-doubt.jpg


....


....

RustyMacHine
03-17-2012, 10:37 AM
I just read all 200 posts and overall would call this thread a "win" since like the OP I was considering an AK and felt undereducated and unsure where my money would be best spent.

Do I "know" what the best choice is now? ...no...but I sure as hell learned a lot. I would rather learn about opinions, "facts", knowledge and experience then simply be told what to do and have no idea why I am actually making that choice.

When it comes to guns, knives, cars, golf clubs, computers, women...etc., it is rare to find an overwhelming consensus on the internet that will send you to bed at night 100% sure you made the best/right choice.

And what is the best choice for one, is not necessarily the best for another.

For instance for me, I want an a retail AK (I'll build on the obligatory 2nd when I'm hooked) that resembles the Cold War original (wood stock & forend, slant cut muzzle brake, bayonet lug, etc.) and that at least has some positive feedback. So it will probably be a WASR. I will take that experience and learn from it, and see where I go on the next one.

In closing, thanks OP for asking the same question that was on my mind, and thanks RLTW for the review...it was needed after getting near post 200.

Anyone know of a preferred dealer for a WASR in the Northern end of the state...please no I'm not starting a debate on dealers, its just a simple question!

First off- What's your location?




... Please be specific.;)

.

Rigma
03-18-2012, 1:11 AM
First off- What's your location?




... Please be specific.;)

.

Sorry. Sacramento area would be closest for me.

Thank you for taking interest.

Ryan in SD
03-18-2012, 2:45 AM
And this is why we cannot have nice things.

CSACANNONEER
03-18-2012, 7:42 AM
Nah. This just isn't true. It can happen if you have a very good working knowledge of AK gunsmithing, but if you take 10 arsenals and 10 random homebuilds the arsenals are going to have less issues and better accuracy.
The AK may be a tolerant weapons system, but its still a firearm and as such some technical proficiency is desired.

As far as price I really don't know what the beef is either. No one here would start bashing others because they decided to take their car to a mechanic to get their headgasket replaced even though doing it themselves would save them $500 or more. So why is arsenal overpriced because they add on the cost of labor to their rifles?

I dont see any of you working for free.

We must know different builders than. Can I ask you just how many homebuilds you've seen? I have seen "a few". A few years ago, many that were built by first timers and had cosmetic flaws. But, in the last 2 years, most of the ones I've seen come out of build parties have been on par with or better than production guns. Aresenal does not fix the original Saiga holes. They just put little plastic plugs in them. At the build parties I've hosted or attended, if someone is dining a Saiga conversion, those holes get plug welded and go away. Aresenal uses cheap black BBQ as a finish. At build parties, there is alway a parkerizing station and sometimes a Dura Coat station too. Which of these are better options? How can you argue the fact that Arsenal doesn't even offer plug welding or parkerizing but will turn out "better" products? BTW, the level of technical proficency one needs to make a superior Saiga conversion is normally aquired about half way through one's first build or conversion. Since build parties now have multiple helpers who have been a part of over 1000 builds each (not an exageration since I can easily account for hosting or attending over 20 build parties @ 25-50 completed guns each and others have surpased me by about double), I think the level of expertise found at the average calguns BP is far superior than the level of expertise of the average minimum wage earning (times are tough, Vegas has a super high unemployment rate and, Arsenal has no reason to pay assembly line workers much more) Arsenal rivet monkey.

As far as on gun being "more accuate" than another, "accuracy" is achieved solely by site adjustment. If you are confusing "accuracy" with "precision", I'm willing to bet that you are still wrong.

ZX-10R
03-18-2012, 7:45 AM
In the market to buy my first AK style rifle and have been told a gazillion times to go with Arsenal. Anybody against that idea? I'm sure I'm not the first to ask this..:oji:

Go ahead...You are doing all the other AK pattern owners who know about AK patterns a favor.:43:

I would not buy one.

henmar77
03-18-2012, 7:54 AM
I wouldnt say I have more experience with them as far as time and build knowledge, But what I do have is major shooting experience with them!!!
I own my own company which means I actually do about 10 hrs of laborous work a week, which in turn gives me LOTS of time to shoot! I live in the country which in turn lets me shoot ANY time I want!
You wanna bash me cause I dont like arsenals? Cause I think theyre over priced? Cause I dont think a saiga no matter how pretty is worth $800 - $1100? Thats cool doesnt bother me in the least.
Anyone whos shot with me knows I SHOOT ALOT OF AMMO!
anyways heres some pics for you to look at.
notice the ware on the AK74 in the trio at the bottom? Thats a shooter!
OHH yeah cleaning regiment consists of royal purple motor oil!

Yikes. By the looks of that model, I guess business isn't to good, huh?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

zfields
03-18-2012, 8:34 AM
Aresenal does not fix the original Saiga holes. They just put little plastic plugs in them.


Sure about that? Most the receivers look welded to me.


http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/images/D/sgl31-61_i-close.jpg

osis32
03-18-2012, 8:43 AM
My friend just had a 1 on 1 with nico yesterday and he's been texting me pics. You want a sick ak? Talk to the ak team on here. As good our better than anything you'll get in a store.

CSACANNONEER
03-18-2012, 9:04 AM
Sure about that? Most the receivers look welded to me.


http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/images/D/sgl31-61_i-close.jpg

Maybe they've changed????? Nice pic of the paint coming off the unparkerized axis pins and the "USA" markings on what was is no longer a Russian made gun. I'm too lazy to pull out my Saiga right now but, I'm wondering why the picture shows three rivets in a line for the front trunion. Do you have any pics of the rear trunion area?

zfields
03-18-2012, 9:10 AM
Maybe they've changed????? Nice pic of the paint coming off the unparkerized axis pins and the "USA" markings on what was is no longer a Russian made gun. I'm too lazy to pull out my Saiga right now but, I'm wondering why the picture shows three rivets in a line for the front trunion. Do you have any pics of the rear trunion area?

Not sure, just pulled it off there website. No freaking way I would own one.

NorCalK9.com
03-18-2012, 10:06 AM
@henmar77
Wanna compare weekly income?
The dog alone cost darn near as much as a middle class car.

NorCalK9.com
03-18-2012, 10:32 AM
Why is this thread still going?

chead
03-18-2012, 10:36 AM
Wait, they aren't just plugging with polymer now? Arsenal is welding the holes? Ew.

Mamluke
03-18-2012, 10:38 AM
.... dang, this thread has taken so many nasty turns ....

heck the popcorn is long GONE! .... it'll NEVER END >>>>>


http://www.photo2pixel.com/RandA10.jpg


....... SIGH!!!!! .... :oji:


........

chead
03-18-2012, 10:38 AM
In conclusion I think we can all agree that AKs are the best guns. Thread over! ;)

Mamluke
03-18-2012, 10:43 AM
In conclusion I think we can all agree that AKs are the best guns. Thread over! ;)

.... ah


http://www.brandautopsy.com/images/old/6a00d8341bf89d53ef01156fc7dd2f970c-pi.jpg



.... :popcorn: ....

...

chead
03-18-2012, 10:46 AM
http://i.imgur.com/ZwEo0.gif

kotton
03-18-2012, 10:48 AM
5k is the price of a middle class car?

smog7
03-18-2012, 11:30 AM
the world is round

FourLoko
03-18-2012, 11:41 AM
do what I did, forget the AK and get an SKS

tujungatoes
03-18-2012, 12:36 PM
http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/7803112038/9562282/mauser%2098%20erma%20(2).jpg_thumbnail1.jpg

98k all the way. More accurate, more durable. I win.:p

Ruiner
03-18-2012, 12:59 PM
Maybe they've changed????? Nice pic of the paint coming off the unparkerized axis pins and the "USA" markings on what was is no longer a Russian made gun. I'm too lazy to pull out my Saiga right now but, I'm wondering why the picture shows three rivets in a line for the front trunion. Do you have any pics of the rear trunion area?

They did not change, that's how it always has been. Arsenal never used the cheap plastic plugs on the holes. You may be confusing a home converted saiga for an arsenal one. That 3rd big rivet you are seeing has been in EVERY late production AK74 and the AK100 series (Yes, the real ones). I've explained this repeatedly. It facilitates rotation of the bolt in place of the ramp on the bullet guide.

CSACANNONEER
03-18-2012, 1:20 PM
They did not change, that's how it always has been. Arsenal never used the cheap plastic plugs on the holes. You may be confusing a home converted saiga for an arsenal one. That 3rd big rivet you are seeing has been in EVERY late production AK74 and the AK100 series (Yes, the real ones). I've explained this repeatedly. It facilitates rotation of the bolt in place of the ramp on the bullet guide.

Thanks, I'm not big on 74s and just haven't paid a lot of attention to them.

Ruiner
03-18-2012, 1:37 PM
Thanks, I'm not big on 74s and just haven't paid a lot of attention to them.

It's understandable that there would be a lot of confusion because the rifles have gone through several subtle revisions over their production. We also rarely, if ever, see kits containing the most recent production parts. All of mine have been mid-late 80s production. As a result, most builders will be unaware of the changes. As I said tho, I don't think the changes make the rifle better or worse, it was probably just done to make manufacturing more efficient.

06inferno
03-18-2012, 2:09 PM
My friend just had a 1 on 1 with nico yesterday and he's been texting me pics. You want a sick ak? Talk to the ak team on here. As good our better than anything you'll get in a store.

Any pics to post? Nico just sent me in the right direction to start ordering parts to build my own. :43:

osis32
03-18-2012, 2:22 PM
Yeah I can post pics of my buddy's ak. I'll post some next weekend too when helps me build mine. I can give you my parts list from ak builder too if you want a romy g. Pm me for that though.

osis32
03-18-2012, 2:29 PM
http://i39.tinypic.com/29xatlc.jpg

we spent hours refinishing our wood pieces. this is before he painted the receiver. Ill post the totally finished one when I get back to the city.

zfields
03-18-2012, 2:52 PM
http://i39.tinypic.com/29xatlc.jpg

we spent hours refinishing our wood pieces. this is before he painted the receiver. Ill post the totally finished one when I get back to the city.

Matte clear coat. That thing looks awesome as is.

osis32
03-18-2012, 3:05 PM
He already did it yesterday. It does look awesome though. I'm super jealous.

STAGE 2
03-18-2012, 3:40 PM
We must know different builders than. Can I ask you just how many homebuilds you've seen?

A handful. But I'm not relying on my personal experience. Most instructors that I have read about or talked to are in agreement that the AKs that that have the most difficulty making it through courses are the homebuilds.


Aresenal does not fix the original Saiga holes. They just put little plastic plugs in them.

Except they dont.


How can you argue the fact that Arsenal doesn't even offer plug welding or parkerizing but will turn out "better" products?

See above.


As far as on gun being "more accuate" than another, "accuracy" is achieved solely by site adjustment. If you are confusing "accuracy" with "precision", I'm willing to bet that you are still wrong.

No need to go off into the weeds when you know exactly what I'm talking about. Arsenal's rifles normally group around 3" at 100 yards. Some very good shooters can get consistent groups under 3. Homebuilds are typically in the 4-6 range.

Again, there are outliers in both groups. Manufacturers make lemons and some homebuilds can be great. But on average, a rifle built on an assembly line with consistent parts is going to have less issues and be capable of greater accuracy than a rifle built from random parts at home.

I'm not under any illusions that I'm going to change your mind because you seem to be dead set regardless of the facts, but I'd really like to understand why you think that arsenal shouldn't change for their labor. As you so clearly pointed out, parts need to be fitted, holes welded, and finishes applied. A homebuilder does this themselves. But when you buy an arsenal you're paying someone else for the labor hence the cost difference.

Why would you expect them to not charge for their labor?

06inferno
03-18-2012, 3:50 PM
http://i39.tinypic.com/29xatlc.jpg

we spent hours refinishing our wood pieces. this is before he painted the receiver. Ill post the totally finished one when I get back to the city.

That is a friggin work of art. He did a great job.

CSACANNONEER
03-18-2012, 4:21 PM
A handful. But I'm not relying on my personal experience. Most instructors that I have read about or talked to are in agreement that the AKs that that have the most difficulty making it through courses are the homebuilds.

OK, so we have different experiences. I have hands on experience and you've read about or talked tp people. I'll also agree that not all homebuilds are built as well as production guns. Many are built by people who don't have experience or experienced bulders helping them. Of course, these are going to stick out like sore thumbs and become the ones everyone remembers. However, many are built better than production guns.


Except they dont.


See above.


Really? I've never seen an Arsenal remanufactured Saiga that was parkerized. Please tell me more about their parkerizing. BTW, they have used plastic plugs.



No need to go off into the weeds when you know exactly what I'm talking about. Arsenal's rifles normally group around 3" at 100 yards. Some very good shooters can get consistent groups under 3. Homebuilds are typically in the 4-6 range.


Please provide some reference to data to support your claim. If you can't, I'll go out on a limb and say that you are making it up.

Again, there are outliers in both groups. Manufacturers make lemons and some homebuilds can be great. But on average, a rifle built on an assembly line with consistent parts is going to have less issues and be capable of greater accuracy than a rifle built from random parts at home.

I'm not under any illusions that I'm going to change your mind because you seem to be dead set regardless of the facts, but I'd really like to understand why you think that arsenal shouldn't change for their labor. As you so clearly pointed out, parts need to be fitted, holes welded, and finishes applied. A homebuilder does this themselves. But when you buy an arsenal you're paying someone else for the labor hence the cost difference.

Why would you expect them to not charge for their labor?

No one has ever disputed that Arsenal manufactures an OK and reliable Saiga conversion. I've never said that they should not charge for their work. I have said that anyone who supports Arsenal is supporting a company with a long history of being very proactive when it came to keeping their product out of California. They have been more successful at keeping legal firearms out of the state than the Brady camp, DiFi and Boxer combined. Why anyone, in any state, would want to support or defend such a openly anti-2A company is beyond my comprehension.

Ruiner
03-18-2012, 4:51 PM
they have used plastic plugs.


I'm convinced that what you saw was an Arsenal SGL-10 that someone had converted to have a pistol grip. Those came with an AK front end but retained the sporter stock. The saigas 100% converted by arsenal like the SGL-2x and 3x do not have the plastic plugs nor have I ever seen or heard of any of them ever having those plugs.

gotshotgun?
03-18-2012, 6:10 PM
Question:

Do the Saiga series 100s have the proper cut outs for the pistol grip screw?

I think I'm going to order one to tonight.

NorCalK9.com
03-18-2012, 7:29 PM
Can this thread die already? Ive bought a glock23 and 3 AK kits since this thread started. Please end it NOW lol
Arsenals are the best of the best! Nothing can hold a candle to an arsenal! The sgl series is now being sold to Russia cause its so great!

CSACANNONEER
03-18-2012, 8:03 PM
Arsenals are the best of the best! Nothing can hold a candle to an arsenal! The sgl series is now being sold to Russia cause its so great!

Sig line up for grabs.

nicoroshi
03-18-2012, 8:23 PM
What stops bolt carrier at the mid (or rear-most) cycle?
Something has to put a stop to it, if not mild hit on the rear trunnion, be it operating rod/spring, bolt carrier or.

Recoil spring, and friction of riding/ cocking hammer.
You'd know this if you built a few.


Take a look at this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD7palHcaqE) Start at 01:55 and 02:06, look how the bolt carrier hits the trunnion and even jumps up from hitting it.


Out of spec gas port hole or weak/ worn out recoil spring.

First time I have ever seen a MAK90 with East German polymer furniture on it.

FiveSeven
03-18-2012, 9:27 PM
Recoil spring, and friction of riding/ cocking hammer.
You'd know this if you built a few.



Out of spec gas port hole or weak/ worn out recoil spring.

First time I have ever seen a MAK90 with East German polymer furniture on it.

I'd take your word for it.... but what about worn out and shot-out AK's in various countries (especially Afghanistan) that still function fine in full auto to this day and have intact rear trunnion-rivets.
Don't you think that long of a life the operating spring would be worn out at some point thus destroying rivets/trunnion-receiver ect?
Maybe fully heat treated receiver does play a role in longevity.

Ruiner
03-18-2012, 9:39 PM
Can this thread die already? Ive bought a glock23 and 3 AK kits since this thread started. Please end it NOW lol
Arsenals are the best of the best! Nothing can hold a candle to an arsenal! The sgl series is now being sold to Russia cause its so great!

All I'm doing is is pointing out outright misinformation. I'm not jumping on either side here. Arsenal makes a decent AK. Homebuilds when done the right way can be superior. In order for people to make well educated decisions, the information we give them has to be accurate.

FiveSeven
03-18-2012, 11:23 PM
Homebuilds when done the right way can be superior.

:beatdeadhorse5:

Again, no one here proved it so far.

What makes it superior?:facepalm:

Does it function better? No.
Is it more accurate, No it's not.
Would it last longer, be more reliable? No on both.

So, what makes it superior since that word has to more with performance rather then cosmetics some historians prefer.

Ruiner
03-18-2012, 11:37 PM
:beatdeadhorse5:

Again, no one here proved it so far.

What makes it superior?:facepalm:

Does it function better? No.
Is it more accurate, No it's not.
Would it last longer, be more reliable? No on both.

So, what makes it superior since that word has to more with performance rather then cosmetics some historians prefer.

Same performance, better aesthetics can also = superior correct? Depends on what the individual is looking to achieve. That's why I said can be. Greater care can be put into making home builds. Again, this is largely dependent on the the skill of the builder. Some builders also choose to fully heat treat their receivers. Combine that with hand picked parts that aren't beat up and worn out and I fail to see how that would produce a gun less accurate or less reliable than a factory gun that was also built by an individual.

FiveSeven
03-19-2012, 12:09 AM
Same performance, better aesthetics can also = superior correct? Depends on what the individual is looking to achieve. That's why I said can be. Greater care can be put into making home builds. Again, this is largely dependent on the the skill of the builder. Some builders also choose to fully heat treat their receivers. Combine that with hand picked parts that aren't beat up and worn out and I fail to see how that would produce a gun less accurate or less reliable than a factory gun that was also built by an individual.

Better aesthetics? It has nothing to do with the weapon performance/functionality etc and just because it looks more like a historically correct rifle it does not make it superior.
And maybe it's just my view but superior and aesthetics don't go hand with hand.
There's no need to put grater care in to this type of a rifle from functionality standpoint. Nor will grater care put in to it make weapon more accurate as it does not change the original design/function.
Factory make the gun from scratch, more so then any home built. There's not much guess work and handpicking anything. Multiple people work on the same gun.

Again, some home build AK's can be as good as new factory ones, rare but people do make them.
But none of the home build ones are superior to a new factory gun. It just does not fly....... If superior is replaced with word "preferred" then I have nothing to say to that.

MikeR
03-19-2012, 12:28 AM
My granny....
http://h.imagehost.org/0953/191573_dont_mess_old_russian_women_500x500_1_vw.jp g
......

I trust the AKTeam @ at one of CSAs BP about as much as i trust Mamluke's
granny to make some authentic Russian food and f-up a pile of wood. ;-)

I went to 3 BPs and built 2 AKs, I didn't know anything when i started but it beats the hell out of buying one and im chock full of knowledge now. Got to hang out with some really good people too. Its all about how much time and effort you want to put into it. I trust my "home builds" way more than some dude making $10 an hour who hates boss....

Day after it got home, added the FCG and pinned the barrel. Its now a featurless AMG-65.
http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq234/MRibz/Firearms/P1010017.jpghttp://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq234/MRibz/Firearms/dr2012.jpg


Whoever said something like "i bet you don't work for free" as an argument :facepalm:

If you consider this work you're doing it wrong.

Not a pic of me but ive seen that bottle before.
http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq234/MRibz/Firearms/Picture071.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq234/MRibz/Firearms/20101002224320802.jpg

Congrats on your new rifle. It wont be the last Ak you own, do yourself a favor and buy a matching numbers kit (w/ barrel if possible), a bottle of whiskey and go hang out with good people and build something you can be proud of.

Ruiner
03-19-2012, 12:34 AM
Better aesthetics? It has nothing to do with the weapon performance/functionality etc and just because it looks more like a historically correct rifle it does not make it superior.
And maybe it's just my view but superior and aesthetics don't go hand with hand.
There's no need to put grater care in to this type of a rifle from functionality standpoint. Nor will grater care put in to it make weapon more accurate as it does not change the original design/function.
Factory make the gun from scratch, more so then any home built. There's not much guess work and handpicking anything. Multiple people work on the same gun.

Again, some home build AK's can be as good as new factory ones, rare but people do make them.
But none of the home build ones are superior to a new factory gun. It just does not fly....... If superior is replaced with word "preferred" then I have nothing to say to that.

We may be in agreement with the word "preferred."

nicoroshi
03-19-2012, 4:32 AM
@fiveseven

I never said that an AK wouldn't function if it has a worn out recoil spring.
It will.
That's the beauty of the platform.
You can beat it to heck, and abuse the snot out of it, and it will still
Function.
An AR is like a prom queen
An AK is like a biker chick
Treat each accordingly.

kekoa1969
03-31-2012, 10:00 AM
I am interested in building my own, but i have asolutly no clue where to get parts, or what parts to get... and I'm an AK virgin, so it might turn out to be a disaster... I really like Arsenals too but to be honest.. there out of my price range for the most part. I value quality!!!!! I like new looking parts, want a chrome lined barrel, and a magazine well capable of accepting double stack mags. Thats all I know but I really appreciate all your guys input and help! Building one seems to be best route, but also a very unknown dark place. Thanks again.

I'm with ya on this. I built my AR & I'd love to build an AK... Any build parties coming to the OC? I've no idea were to start or what I need. I want something that'll last & not fall apart or even feel like it might, it's got to feel solid, cycle smooth & run like my life depends on it, because some day it might.

tujungatoes
03-31-2012, 11:48 AM
Start reading the stickies in the gunsmithing section, and keep an eye on the WTB/services offered section for an upcoming build party. We've been doing them every couple of months.