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View Full Version : Can/should I register these guns through voluntary registration?


woodtiger
03-13-2012, 11:55 AM
Hello gun brothers,

I have a noob question/situation: I received 5 guns as a gift (Glock, Python 357, Ruger cowboy, Colt 45, and Vepr 308) about 8 years ago when my room mate left the country. These were registered in his name, as of 8 years ago. I don't have any documentation for these weapons, or a letter from him that these are gifts.

The goal is that I want to sell these, and I am not sure what I can legally do here in California.

Can I register these in my name through voluntary registration? Or am I screwed?

Thanks in advance!

SanPedroShooter
03-13-2012, 11:59 AM
Are they legally yours? That would be my first question. They should have been PPTed at an FFL. The handguns need to be registered, it costs 19 dollars and form, and the word I hear is that they will overlook discrepancies to get your guns on paper, the bastards.

There is also a statute of limitations to register handguns, it may be long enough to just be to late. I will point out that handguns dont have to be registred if they were acquired before a certian year, somtime in the ninties.

An expert will be along shortly with details.

stix213
03-13-2012, 12:01 PM
Strictly speaking, the only completely legal way to fix this is for you to get in touch with your friend and have him come back and do a legal transfer to you. Its been said on this board before that the CA DOJ would rather get any handguns registered in your name than worry about what happened in the past, but lets see what some other people say on that.

woodtiger
03-13-2012, 12:06 PM
Are they legally yours? That would be my first question. They should have been PPTed at an FFL. The handguns need to be registered, it costs 19 dollars and form, and the word I hear is that they will overlook discrepancies to get your guns on paper, the bastards.

There is also a statute of limitations to register handguns, it may be long enough to just be to late. I will point out that handguns dont have to be registred if they were acquired before a certian year, somtime in the ninties.

An expert will be along shortly with details.

I don't think that they are legally mine, and I have had these since 2002 or 2003 when the room mate left the country. So it sounds like I am kinda screwed as these were acquired in 2002/2003.

Thanks for chiming in SanPedroShooter!

woodtiger
03-13-2012, 12:09 PM
Strictly speaking, the only completely legal way to fix this is for you to get in touch with your friend and have him come back and do a legal transfer to you. Its been said on this board before that the CA DOJ would rather get any handguns registered in your name than worry about what happened in the past, but lets see what some other people say on that.

I have heard this too. A month ago, I ran into a fella at a store who worked for the DOJ, and he recommended the voluntary registration.

When I called Turners to confirm, they directed me to the DOJ. The website was not too helpful as my situation isn't a part of the FAQ ;)



Thanks Stix213!

SanPedroShooter
03-13-2012, 12:11 PM
You said they were a 'gift', so basically you did a private party transfer without an FFL involved. Similar to what 90% of the rest of the country does... Its what gun haters call the 'gun show loophole'

You will get better advice from someone else soon, but if it were me, and it wasnt past the statute of limitations, I would just fill out the form and send it in. You dont need to explain.

I found the form, but the link is broken. http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/oplaw.pdf?

This one is for new residents (also broken), but I think they go to the same place. http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/ab991frm.pdf?

woodtiger
03-13-2012, 12:23 PM
You said they were a 'gift', so basically you did a private party transfer without an FFL involved. Similar to what 90% of the rest of the country does... Its what gun haters call the 'gun show loophole'

You will get better advice from someone else soon, but if it were me, and it wasnt past the statute of limitations, I would just fill out the form and send it in. You dont need to explain.

I found the form, but the link is broken. http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/oplaw.pdf?

This one is for new residents (also broken), but I think they go to the same place. http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/ab991frm.pdf?

I will check it out. Thanks again!

Decoligny
03-13-2012, 12:32 PM
Hello gun brothers,

I have a noob question/situation: I received 5 guns as a gift (Glock, Python 357, Ruger cowboy, Colt 45, and Vepr 308) about 8 years ago when my room mate left the country. These were registered in his name, as of 8 years ago. I don't have any documentation for these weapons, or a letter from him that these are gifts.

The goal is that I want to sell these, and I am not sure what I can legally do here in California.

Can I register these in my name through voluntary registration? Or am I screwed?

Thanks in advance!

You committed a crime 8 years ago, by improperly transferring the guns without going through an FFL. They were indeed transfered to you, as gifts.

The statute of limitations is long passed on that particular crime.

You need to complete the voluntary registration form and send in $19.00 for each firearm.

paul0660
03-13-2012, 12:34 PM
don't do it again, boy.

Curtis
03-13-2012, 12:39 PM
Edited because Decoligny gave a much better response.

For my knowledge, what is the the statue of limitations on this type of crime?

M. D. Van Norman
03-13-2012, 12:43 PM
You committed a crime 8 years ago, by improperly transferring the guns without going through an FFL.…

Incorrect. His former roommate committed the “crime” in question.

MonsterMan
03-13-2012, 12:47 PM
What is the statue of limitations on this issue?

tpuig
03-13-2012, 12:49 PM
I would think they are "abandoned property" since your roommate moved out and left them...

SanPedroShooter
03-13-2012, 12:57 PM
They were a gift per the OP, and I seem to recall the staute runs out after three years. Dont quote me on that.

ap3572001
03-13-2012, 12:58 PM
Its interesting.

There are many handguns that were made BEFORE 1991 that changed hands W/O an FFL ( which was legal to do prior to 1991).

So if You are 50 and You have a pistol that chnaged hands several time before 1991 and never have seen a CA FFL since, no one would EXPECT it to be in Your name.

(Correct me if I am wrong).

If You are 25 and You have a coule of XD's and Beretta Storm that are not in Your name its a little different.

Am I making any sense?

Vin496
03-13-2012, 1:34 PM
If you are going to sell them. No need to do the voluntary registration. When they are sold and DROSed they will be registered to the new owner.

I would handle this no different than a new state resident selling his handgun brought in from his former state of residence to a California resident.

The gun does not need to be previously registered in California to sell it.

Yemff
03-13-2012, 2:06 PM
If you are going to sell them. No need to do the voluntary registration. When they are sold and DROSed they will be registered to the new owner.

I would handle this no different than a new state resident selling his handgun brought in from his former state of residence to a California resident.

The gun does not need to be previously registered in California to sell it.

This, they aren't going to do a background check on the seller. If the gun turns out to be marked as stolen or used in a crime then that's a different story

SFgiants105
03-13-2012, 2:15 PM
This, they aren't going to do a background check on the seller. If the gun turns out to be marked as stolen or used in a crime then that's a different story

yup

Librarian
03-13-2012, 2:33 PM
If you are going to sell them. No need to do the voluntary registration. When they are sold and DROSed they will be registered to the new owner.

I would handle this no different than a new state resident selling his handgun brought in from his former state of residence to a California resident.

The gun does not need to be previously registered in California to sell it.

This, they aren't going to do a background check on the seller. If the gun turns out to be marked as stolen or used in a crime then that's a different story

This is the best solution as things are today.

Just to review, substantially all firearms transfers in California MUST go through a California-licensed FFL; this has been true since 1991, and it is a misdemeanor to not follow the law.

bikeindirt
03-13-2012, 4:16 PM
Are you saying they do not check that you are the lawful owner of a handgun before you can sell it at a dealer?

BID

Librarian
03-13-2012, 4:44 PM
Are you saying they do not check that you are the lawful owner of a handgun before you can sell it at a dealer?

BID

Yes.

No check on the owner is made. Can't be - it is legal to own handguns that the state does not know about.

See the wiki article on registration -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Firearms_registration

Xedd
03-13-2012, 4:45 PM
Ok the OP made a boo boo a few years ago. But if statute of limitations is up, why would you need to register them? They"re his now right? Only thing i can think of is getting caught concealing them is a big no no but that's a no no anyway. School me on this fellas.

Vin496
03-13-2012, 4:56 PM
Ok the OP made a boo boo a few years ago. But if statute of limitations is up, why would you need to register them? They"re his now right? Only thing i can think of is getting caught concealing them is a big no no but that's a no no anyway. School me on this fellas.

Read the thread Xedd, if he wasn't going to sell them, he needs to voluntarily register them, but since he plans on selling them. They will be registered to the new owner via the DROS.

Librarian
03-13-2012, 5:26 PM
Ok the OP made a boo boo a few years ago. But if statute of limitations is up, why would you need to register them? They"re his now right? Only thing i can think of is getting caught concealing them is a big no no but that's a no no anyway. School me on this fellas.

Read the thread Xedd, if he wasn't going to sell them, he needs to voluntarily register them, but since he plans on selling them. They will be registered to the new owner via the DROS.

And, because it is the consistent position and practice at Calguns to advise people to obey the law, and to do the correct legal thing in the circumstances.

CHS
03-13-2012, 5:47 PM
You committed a crime 8 years ago, by improperly transferring the guns without going through an FFL. They were indeed transfered to you, as gifts.

The statute of limitations is long passed on that particular crime.

You need to complete the voluntary registration form and send in $19.00 for each firearm.

Since the OP wants to sell the firearms in question, he can save $19/each by doing this:

If you are going to sell them. No need to do the voluntary registration. When they are sold and DROSed they will be registered to the new owner.

I would handle this no different than a new state resident selling his handgun brought in from his former state of residence to a California resident.

The gun does not need to be previously registered in California to sell it.

Just sell them PROPERLY and LEGALLY utilizing an FFL. They will become registered to the new owner properly with no issues.

Contrary to what most people think, Vin496 is correct. You DO NOT have to be the registered owner in order to sell a firearm to someone in CA and the CA DOJ will not check this during the sale.

Steve1968LS2
03-13-2012, 5:52 PM
You committed a crime 8 years ago, by improperly transferring the guns without going through an FFL. They were indeed transfered to you, as gifts.

The statute of limitations is long passed on that particular crime.

You need to complete the voluntary registration form and send in $19.00 for each firearm.

This..

Starting in 1991 you need to work through an FFL for handgun transfers..

So do the VolReg and keep them or PM me how much you want.. lol

woodtiger
03-13-2012, 9:24 PM
I guess the next step is to post in the classified section now that I feel like I am in the clear.

Thank you all for the reply and I really appreciate the advice and clarification for this noob.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-13-2012, 11:20 PM
Incorrect. His former roommate committed the “crime” in question.

I incorrect your incorrect. :) Both parties to the illegal transfer committed a crime.

But as has already been mentioned, the statute of limitations on the crime has expired. There is no legal requirement to register any of the firearms, but vol-reg'ing the handguns might have some benefits. Vol-reg'ing the long guns is kind of pointless.

Curtis
03-14-2012, 4:14 AM
Vol-reg'ing the long guns is kind of pointless.

I reviewed the voluntary registration form and it looks like they have added a box for "long gun" with an option for "rifle" or "shot gun". So you can voluntarily register your long guns. Link (http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/volreg.pdf)

Mssr. Eleganté
03-14-2012, 7:05 AM
I reviewed the voluntary registration form and it looks like they have added a box for "long gun" with an option for "rifle" or "shot gun". So you can voluntarily register your long guns. Link (http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/volreg.pdf)

The VolReg form has always had an option for long guns, but like I said, it's kind of pointless to register long guns right now. The handguns don't need to be registered either, but with handguns there are a couple of situations where having them registered can actually benefit you.

M. D. Van Norman
03-14-2012, 8:40 AM
Both parties to the illegal transfer committed a crime.

Again, it is not generally illegal to acquire or own firearms. Absent other bad behavior and unless some sort of conspiracy charge were raised, woodtiger would be very unlikely to be convicted. If you know of any case law to the contrary, please share it.

But, yes, a district attorney can indict a ham sandwich for anything.

Oceanbob
03-14-2012, 8:55 AM
As a side note the CDOJ does about 5,000 DROS and registrations per day. This includes family transers, Vol Registrations, new gun sales, used gun sales. (mainly handguns). After 2014, unless the law is changed you can expect an additional 3,500 daily records on long guns. :eek:

Maybe more.

Bob :)

Low Light
03-14-2012, 9:06 AM
As if you all probably didn't know this, here is an indication of how well the whole program works - my father had a Colt Python stolen by a family "friend" who was, knowingly, in our house and who my father had done business with in the past. Theft and serial number were reported to both the LAPD and the CADOJ. Let's just say the thief was someone who probably would have unloaded the gun for the money fairly quickly. 21 years later despite all the red-tape and round-the-clock detective work by the "authorities" and still no sign of the gun. Seeing what Pythons are going for these days and reading this BS just gets the blood boiling. Preaching to the choir, though, I know.

ClarenceBoddicker
03-14-2012, 10:31 AM
The way I see it is that you have just been safely storing your roommates guns, locked up & not owning or using them. See if you can get a hold of your old roommate so he can "sell" you his guns via a PPT. If you can't find him, you can sell them on legally on Gunbroker. I would not sell them to CA residents, like most sellers on GB don't.

Oceanbob
03-14-2012, 10:57 AM
No one is going to ask.

The OP can safely sell the guns here in the classifieds as long as he uses an FFL to do the PPT.

I've sold dozens of guns that were not registered to me.

Be well, Bob :)



The way I see it is that you have just been safely storing your roommates guns, locked up & not owning or using them. See if you can get a hold of your old roommate so he can "sell" you his guns via a PPT. If you can't find him, you can sell them on legally on Gunbroker. I would not sell them to CA residents, like most sellers on GB don't.

lhecker51
03-14-2012, 12:37 PM
Ok the OP made a boo boo a few years ago. But if statute of limitations is up, why would you need to register them? They"re his now right? Only thing i can think of is getting caught concealing them is a big no no but that's a no no anyway. School me on this fellas.
There is a charge enhancement if you are caught carrying a handgun that is not registered with the state. Unregistered illegal concealed carry=Felony Registered illegal concealed carry=misdemeanor.

Librarian
03-14-2012, 1:06 PM
There is a charge enhancement if you are caught carrying a handgun that is not registered with the state. Unregistered illegal concealed carry=Felony Registered illegal concealed carry=misdemeanor.

That's true, and that 'enhancement' seems to serve no useful purpose.

But the issue can be easily avoided: don't carry illegally.

ldrider
03-14-2012, 1:25 PM
not trying to hi-jack but...
i have 3 pistols. 2 were given to me by my dad about 1980. one came from my mother in law when my father in law passed a few years back. what would be the correct way to register these?

Thanks
Joe

lhecker51
03-14-2012, 1:32 PM
That's true, and that 'enhancement' seems to serve no useful purpose.

But the issue can be easily avoided: don't carry illegally.

Agreed. I added this as it had not been covered.

Librarian
03-14-2012, 3:16 PM
not trying to hi-jack but...
i have 3 pistols. 2 were given to me by my dad about 1980. one came from my mother in law when my father in law passed a few years back. what would be the correct way to register these?

Thanks
Joe

The law requiring DROS and FFLs for transfer, and other registration things, took effect in 1991. The 1980 guns are yours with no paper required.

For the MIL gun, presuming it was after 1991, you should file (should have filed) the OPLAW form (http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/oplaw.pdf?) with $19.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-14-2012, 9:01 PM
Again, it is not generally illegal to acquire or own firearms.

:confused: Who said anything about it being generally illegal to acquire or own firearms? If it it were we'd all be in jail. :confused:

You claim that when two parties violate California's law requiring private party sales to be processes through a dealer that only the seller is violating the law. You are wrong. Both parties to the transaction would be violating the law.

27545. Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).

.
.
.

27590. (a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), (c), or (e), a violation of this article is a misdemeanor.

Ripon83
03-14-2012, 10:51 PM
Once you register the Python I want it :). We'll do the transfer right !!!!

M. D. Van Norman
03-15-2012, 8:46 AM
“… a violation of this article is a misdemeanor …”

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Strangely enough, no one has been able to produce that citation before. Perhaps we have the “reorganization” of the code to thank.

Dirtbiker
03-15-2012, 9:03 AM
Did anyone see the Vepr 308?

Was this registered as an AW? Yes = bad, no = good for you. Is the name of the rifle listed on the flowchart? yes = bad no = good for you. No to the first two questions is good for you but you will need to make sure it is configured legally.

BigJ
03-19-2012, 2:01 PM
Thanks for the good info guys.

Can someone prove/provide an official link to the 3 year statute of limitations claim made earlier in this thread?

Another question: lets say a pistol was given as a gift between two California residents, but the actual hand off happened out of state. Any implications there or is that totally irrelevant?

Thanks again!

tenpercentfirearms
03-19-2012, 2:11 PM
To the OP, if you are going to keep the guns, then you need to register them. Shoot someone with an unregistered gun and you might be looking at some legal trouble.

If you are going to sell them all, then just sell them. They will only do a background check on you if the buyer is denied and even then, they don't care that they were not registered to you.

Another question: lets say a pistol was given as a gift between two California residents, but the actual hand off happened out of state. Any implications there or is that totally irrelevant?

So the two residents violated the law by not doing a PPT. Further, they then transported the firearm across state lines. You might be opening yourself up to both Federal and State legal issues.

Sorry I don't know the consequences because I don't do things that jeopardize my gun rights. Just don't do it.

BigJ
03-19-2012, 2:20 PM
So the two residents violated the law by not doing a PPT. Further, they then transported the firearm across state lines. You might be opening yourself up to both Federal and State legal issues.

Sorry I don't know the consequences because I don't do things that jeopardize my gun rights. Just don't do it.First, no law was violated. This is just a question.

Second, so we don't get too far off topic (my fault for asking) would you please provide a link that shows transporting firearms across state lines is illegal?

Thanks!

Nessal
03-19-2012, 7:27 PM
Does the 1 in 30 rule still apply here with voluntary reg?

CHS
03-19-2012, 7:43 PM
Does the 1 in 30 rule still apply here with voluntary reg?

No.

1-in-30 only applies to dealer sales.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-19-2012, 9:58 PM
...Can someone prove/provide an official link to the 3 year statute of limitations claim made earlier in this thread?

Here's a link to the sections of California's penal code that describes the statute of limitations for various crimes...

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=799-805



...Another question: lets say a pistol was given as a gift between two California residents, but the actual hand off happened out of state. Any implications there or is that totally irrelevant?

...Further, they then transported the firearm across state lines. You might be opening yourself up to both Federal and State legal issues.

...so we don't get too far off topic (my fault for asking) would you please provide a link that shows transporting firearms across state lines is illegal?

Here's the section of the United States Code that says it's illegal for you to transport a firearm into California that you acquired as a gift from your California resident friend while the two of you were outside of California...


18 U.S.C. § 922

(a) It shall be unlawful -

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

BigJ
03-19-2012, 10:07 PM
Thank you for the info. Interesting.

Any chance you have a similar reference for my first question?

Mssr. Eleganté
03-19-2012, 10:21 PM
Thank you for the info. Interesting.

Any chance you have a similar reference for my first question?

If your talking about the California statute of limitations thing, I was editing the post to include that while you were posting, so it's in their now.

BigJ
03-19-2012, 10:30 PM
Great, thanks again!

One last question: if all is well, what sort of feedback from the state can one expect after submitting and successful processing of their VolReg?