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Chiuchimu
03-13-2012, 9:53 AM
I just did a PPT at Turners with a fellow Calgunner. The gun didn't come with a lock so I, the buyer, brought a DOJ approved lock I bought several months back(never opened package).

The gun came with 2 mags and a holster. I told the FFL at turners I wanted to give the seller the lock so he could include it in the sale. then I would meet the requirement that a gun sale would be accompanied by a doj approved lock. The FFL said 'no'. He said:

1) I had to buy a lock from him with the sale of the gun
2) I had to show a receipt under 30 days old if I provided my own lock

I asked him how are new guns sold with locks? His answer was that was different.

I reread the laws several times. Here is the section:
************************************************** ****

12. FIREARM SAFETY DEVICE REQUIREMENT
Each firearm sold, transferred, or manufactured in California must be accompanied with a
firearm safety device approved by the Department of Justice and identified as appropriate
for that firearm. The Department of Justice is required to compile and publish a listing of
all of the safety devices that have been determined to meet the department’s standards. A
list of these devices is available on the Department of Justice Firearms Division website at
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.htm. (Penal Code § 12088.1.)
The term “long-gun safe” is distinct from “gun safe” and “firearms safety device.” A
“long-gun safe” means a locking container designed to fully contain and secure a rifle or a
shotgun. A “long-gun safe” must have a locking system consisting of either a mechanical
combination lock or an electronic combination lock that has at least 1,000 possible unique

combinations consisting of a minimum of three numbers, letters, or symbols per
combination, and that is not listed on the Department of Justice Roster of Firearm Safety
Devices. (PC § 12087.6).
No person shall keep for commercial sale, commercially sell, or distribute as part of an
organized firearm safety program, any firearms safety device (other than a long-gun safe)
that is not listed on the Department of Justice roster of approved firearms safety devices.
Any sale of a long gun safe must be accompanied by a specified warning label. (Penal
Code § 12088.1.)
The Department of Justice Roster of Firearm Safety Devices may be accessed on the
Department of Justice website at http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.htm.
Firearm sales and transfers are exempt from the requirement to provide a firearm safety
device if either of the following is true:
- The purchaser demonstrates proof that he or she owns a gun safe that meets the
standards set forth in Department of Justice regulations adopted under Penal
Code section 12088.2 by signing an affidavit to that effect.
- The purchaser presents an approved safety device for the firearm being
purchased and provides to the firearms dealer an original receipt showing the
purchase took place no more than 30 days prior to picking up the firearm.
- The purchaser presents a receipt for a Department of Justice-approved lock
box and signs an affidavit (provided by the firearms dealer) that describes the
make and model of the lock box and that the lock box will accommodate the
firearm being purchased.
Firearm safety device requirements in general do not apply to the commerce of “antique
firearms” as defined in subsection (a) of Section 921 of Title 18 of the United States Code
nor do they apply to the commerce of any firearm intended to be used by a salaried,
full-time peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3
of Part 2 of the Penal Code for purposes of law enforcement. (Penal Code § 12088.8.)
************************************************** ****

I think I was right. My action of giving the seller a lock so that his gun is accompanied by a lock doesn't break the law or try to go around the intent of the law. I'm ready to call turners. Can anyone shed light on this?

Baconator
03-13-2012, 9:55 AM
The lock has to been on the approved lock list (there is the link there in your copy of the law) or a new one with a receipt purchased within 30 days. Some FFLs are way more anal about this than others.

Chiuchimu
03-13-2012, 10:03 AM
^ It is on the approved list.

This is the law:
"Each firearm sold, transferred, or manufactured in California must be accompanied with a
firearm safety device approved by the Department of Justice and identified as appropriate
for that firearm..."

The sale was for a pistol and the lock I brought was a cable lock like the ones most new guns come with.

Baconator
03-13-2012, 10:04 AM
But was the model of the lock on the list?

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.htm

Librarian
03-13-2012, 11:47 AM
You said I, the buyer, brought a DOJ approved lock I bought several months back(never opened package).
and then you quoted
- The purchaser presents an approved safety device for the firearm being
purchased and provides to the firearms dealer an original receipt showing the
purchase took place no more than 30 days prior to picking up the firearm.30-days is a critical component.

See also the wiki article -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C _Safes.2C_and_Laws

Chiuchimu
03-13-2012, 4:07 PM
But was the model of the lock on the list?

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.htm

Yes, I said it was DOJ approved twice already.

Device Make: NAD Corporation
Device Model: CGL-13
Text Description: Any pistol, revolver, shotgun, and rifle provided there is a minimum opening of 0.300 inches to accept the cable and the device can be properly installed.


You said and then you quoted
30-days is a critical component.

See also the wiki article -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C _Safes.2C_and_Laws

what about reading the rest?

I gave the seller the lock so he can include it as part of the sale. It doesn't matter if the lock came with the gun when he bought it, he bought the lock separately or it was given to him seconds before the PPT. As far as the FFL is concerned, it is the sellers lock that seller is including in his package of gun, 2 mags, holster and gun lock. If the seller refused to include a lock, then I the buyer would have to provide one with a receipt showing purchase of less than 30 days.

the law again:
"Each firearm sold, transferred, or manufactured in California must be accompanied with a
firearm safety device approved by the Department of Justice and identified as appropriate
for that firearm..."


Thanks for the help guys, I know you both are good people trying to help out, but I need help from someone that knows the laws well or has first had experience in this like an FFL or a lawyer.

Can someone who actually knows something about this answer my thread?

Please.

Librarian
03-13-2012, 4:21 PM
what about reading the rest?

I gave the seller the lock so he can include it as part of the sale. It doesn't matter if the lock came with the gun when he bought it, he bought the lock separately or it was given to him seconds before the PPT. As far as the FFL is concerned, it is the sellers lock that seller is including in his package of gun, 2 mags, holster and gun lock. If the seller refused to include a lock, then I the buyer would have to provide one with a receipt showing purchase of less than 30 days.

the law again:
"Each firearm sold, transferred, or manufactured in California must be accompanied with a
firearm safety device approved by the Department of Justice and identified as appropriate
for that firearm..."


Thanks for the help guys, I know you both are good people trying to help out, but I need help from someone that knows the laws well or has first had experience in this like an FFL or a lawyer.

Can someone who actually knows something about this answer my thread?

Please.

That would be me.

The law you quoted, which I will re-quote, says (a) Any firearm sold or transferred in this state by a
licensed firearms dealer, including a private transfer through a
dealer, and any firearm manufactured in this state, shall include or
be accompanied by a firearm safety device that is listed on the
Department of Justice's roster of approved firearm safety devices and
that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to
either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical
characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster
for use with the device.
(b)[[gun safe, not an issue here]]
(c) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety
device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or
transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety
device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to
the firearms dealer, which shows the date of purchase, the name, and
the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in
paragraphs (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with
the dealer's record of sales of firearms.


The buyer MUST do ALL of the things in (c)(1), (c)(2) and (c)(3).

Your anecdote does not show that the buyer presented the properly dated receipt. He (you) did not follow (c)(3).

SouperMan
03-13-2012, 4:23 PM
I think it's a built-in mechanism (either inadvertently or by design) that forces the purchaser to purchase a new lock that is current and compliant.

Hypothetically, I could have gotten a BNIB gun with lock 15 years ago, but if I did a PPT with the same lock, it might not be compliant anymore.

What you quoted OP kept referring to Purchaser, not seller that must buy the lock. I think what you were trying to do was nice, but FFLs have their own policies and federal/state regulations that they must follow.

CHS
03-13-2012, 4:42 PM
Why is this so difficult to grok, OP?

Neither you or the seller was able to furnish an ORIGINAL receipt showing that the lock was purchased within 30 days of this transaction.

It's stupid. It's ridiculous. I know this. We all know this. It's also the law.

You're complaining because you somehow think you found a magical loophole in the law, when you didn't. Complain about the law, not about how your magical loophole didn't work.

Chiuchimu
03-13-2012, 6:04 PM
That would be me.

The law you quoted, which I will re-quote, says
*****************************************
(a) Any firearm sold or transferred in this state by a
licensed firearms dealer, including a private transfer through a
dealer, and any firearm manufactured in this state, shall include or
be accompanied by a firearm safety device that is listed on the
Department of Justice's roster of approved firearm safety devices and
that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to
either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical
characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster
for use with the device.
(b)[[gun safe, not an issue here]]
(c) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety
device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or
transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety
device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to
the firearms dealer, which shows the date of purchase, the name, and
the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in
paragraphs (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with
the dealer's record of sales of firearms.
********************************************
The buyer MUST do ALL of the things in (c)(1), (c)(2) and (c)(3).

Your anecdote does not show that the buyer presented the properly dated receipt. He (you) did not follow (c)(3).

Then how do new guns come with locks? Those guns are on the shelves for months. They don't have receipts that show the included locks were bought in the last 30 days. It seems the DOJ treats a manufacturer selling guns and an individual selling guns differently. I don't see were in the law such distinctions are made.


@CHS following the law is not a loophole and wanting to be clear on what the law says is not a stupid thing.

Librarian
03-13-2012, 6:30 PM
Then how do new guns come with locks? Those guns are on the shelves for months. They don't have receipts that show the included locks were bought in the last 30 days. It seems the DOJ treats a manufacturer selling guns and an individual selling guns differently. I don't see were in the law such distinctions are made.


@CHS following the law is not a loophole and wanting to be clear on what the law says is not a stupid thing.

Exactly correct. The new guns on the shelf are considered differently.

Read through the bill analyses of AB 106 at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_106&sess=9900&house=B&author=scott

And, the distinction is PC 23635 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/23635.html)(a) - that covers what FFLs in California must do. Already quoted, above. The FFLs buy the guns on the shelf; if those guns include an approved lock, then the gun and lock are sold as a package; the FFL is providing the lock.

The exceptions from the FFL providing the locks are listed in 23635 (b) and (c).

FFLs have options on how they do that. For example, I believe it is tenpercentfirearms (who is an FFL in Taft) who keeps a bucket of Project Childsafe locks around. He gives them away, IIRC.

In theory, the person ("C", below) at Turners could have done something like
C: Play along with me here...
You: OK.
C: Give me that fine lock.
You: OK, here.
C: Now, may I keep it? Say yes.
You: OK, sure, you can keep it.
C: Ah, I have just found this new lock I can give you!

Chiuchimu
03-13-2012, 8:38 PM
^ Oh, I get it. the FFL is the seller of gun and lock. It doesn't matter that the gun and lock has been sitting on his shelf for ten years or more, the minute I buy the gun is the minute when I buy the lock.

I've been searching the internet for several hours total now and I give up. Some people who PPT a gun that came with a lock had no problems, others were forced to buy a lock anyways. Worst case I read was a guy bought a gun that came with lock and case. In a week, Before he ever shot the gun he PPT it to a friend. He had the gun receipt which was less than 30 days old, but the receipt didn't specify it came with a lock. So the friend had to buy a lock anyway!

The bottom line is the law is whatever the particular FFL thinks it is. It's pointless to talk about the law or regulations, just find a good FFL that gives you breaks.

Decoligny
03-13-2012, 8:53 PM
The top secret hush hush don't tell anyone method of getting around this is:

Buy an approved lock at WalMart, bring it and the receipt to the FFL for the pickup of the handgun. Once you have the gun, return the lock for a full refund.

Librarian
03-13-2012, 9:22 PM
^ Oh, I get it. the FFL is the seller of gun and lock. It doesn't matter that the gun and lock has been sitting on his shelf for ten years or more, the minute I buy the gun is the minute when I buy the lock.

I've been searching the internet for several hours total now and I give up. Some people who PPT a gun that came with a lock had no problems, others were forced to buy a lock anyways. Worst case I read was a guy bought a gun that came with lock and case. In a week, Before he ever shot the gun he PPT it to a friend. He had the gun receipt which was less than 30 days old, but the receipt didn't specify it came with a lock. So the friend had to buy a lock anyway!

The bottom line is the law is whatever the particular FFL thinks it is. It's pointless to talk about the law or regulations, just find a good FFL that gives you breaks.

The top secret hush hush don't tell anyone method of getting around this is:

Buy an approved lock at WalMart, bring it and the receipt to the FFL for the pickup of the handgun. Once you have the gun, return the lock for a full refund.

That is, on the way to pick up your gun, stop at Walmart ... (that works because CA requires anybody selling a thing labeled 'gun lock' to sell only 'approved' things.) So long as you stop at Walmart 30 days or fewer before you go pick up your gun, and bring both the lock and the dated receipt to pick-up, you have satisfied the buyer requirements of 23635(c). Then the FFL can complete his parts of (c), and all will be nice and legal.

Chiuchimu, you are experiencing the same whiplash as most people do when first they try to read California gun laws.

To 'gun people', the laws make no sense at all.

To politicians, passing gun laws is a way to appear to be 'doing something', and thus the legislator is deserving of re-election. Politicians are not stupid, they just don't share the same goals with reasonable people.

AB 106, of course, created a solution in search of a problem; that is typical of things that came from the office of Jack Scott. Wikipedia says "He currently serves as the Chancellor for California Community Colleges", so he's pretty much on the back burner in Sacramento these days.

Smokeybehr
03-13-2012, 9:32 PM
Some of the cool dealers have a stack of locks they'll sell you for a penny or a dollar as long as you sell it back to them for the same amount to avoid the whole lock BS.

Chiuchimu
03-15-2012, 8:47 AM
Update.

just got a return Email from Turners. They looked at my Email and decided to refund the lock I bought and let me use the lock I brought as long as they inspect it and see that it is DOJ approved(it is).

I changed my mind:
If you read the law and you think your in the right, then pursue your case as far as you're welling to take it. don't let anyone else bring you down.

If they don't budge, you can still get justice,just be creative, like the Walmart example.

mdimeo
03-15-2012, 8:59 AM
All you needed to do was have the seller write you a receipt that said:

"sold - one model *XXX* lock for $1 on *DATE* - *SELLERS_NAME*"

If the FFL says no, ask them to call the DOJ, who will tell them to go ahead (I've done this).

Just keep in mind, the government makes the FFL do the PPT. They'd rather not do it it at all. They're doing you an enforced favor, so be polite.

lazyworm
03-15-2012, 9:02 AM
2 more things you can try next time...

1) give the lock to the seller in advanced and then have him sell it back to you for a penny. Make a receipt in advanced and have him sign/date it.

2) ask the FFL for a steep discount on the lock on the premise that you'd be donating it to them after the transaction.

Chiuchimu
03-22-2012, 9:35 PM
^ and ^^

Don't need to folks. I went to Turners and they recognized that a seller can provide a DOJ approved lock with a gun in a PPT without any receipt. Later that week, I went to FT Courage Armory and told my story to the owner. He said they have always known that the seller can provide a lock with the gun so the buyer won't have to buy one from the FFL or supply a 30 day receipt with his own.


It's the LAW. It's your RIGHT. People, stand up for your rights!

Nahuatl
03-23-2012, 6:51 AM
This seems like a lot jaw-grinding and way too much driving, returning, refunding for a $6 lock. Maybe it was $7. TMFI

tenpercentfirearms
03-23-2012, 8:11 AM
OP, you are correct. There is absoultely zero difference in a Glock I buy (I being an FFL) from a wholesaler coming with a lock and the handgun from the PPT seller coming with a lock. The PC is clear.23635. (a) Any firearm sold or transferred in this state by a
licensed firearms dealer, including a private transfer through a
dealer, and any firearm manufactured in this state, shall include or
be accompanied by a firearm safety device that is listed on the
Department of Justice's roster of approved firearm safety devices and
that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to
either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical
characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster
for use with the device.It does not state where the lock comes from or who provides it. So 100% if I as a dealer can provide you with a lock supplied by the manufacturer, then the seller can provide a lock and it is legally and even logically the same.

Please everyone note that the only time you need to provide a receipt is if you want to be exempt from PC 23635(a). 23635(b) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the
standards set forth in Section 23650. Gun safes shall not be required
to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without appearing
on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for
purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of
the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms
dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of
purchase with the dealer's record of sales of firearms.
(c) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety
device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or
transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety
device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to
the firearms dealer, which shows the date of purchase, the name, and
the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in
paragraphs (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with
the dealer's record of sales of firearms.I as a dealer never want you to be exempt from 23635(a) as that is a lot of hassle. I would rather just provide you with a lock or in the case of a handgun you are PPTing, it would already come with a lock. Even if you came to me and said I brought a lock and this receipt, I wouldn't take it as that is too much work. I would give you a free lock and tell you to bring it back to me next time you are in the area or I would trade you. You give me a lock, I provide your firearm purchase with a different make and model lock.

The moral of this story is don't expect big chain stores to understand the law and think outside the box to decrease customer hassle. Although it appears Turners actually did respond in this case. Well done Turners.

The top secret hush hush don't tell anyone method of getting around this is:

Buy an approved lock at WalMart, bring it and the receipt to the FFL for the pickup of the handgun. Once you have the gun, return the lock for a full refund.

This is my favorite. What time and gas people will spend to get around something. Just buy a $7-15 lock and make your life easier. Then never use that dealer again.

CaliB&R
03-23-2012, 8:12 AM
Not to hijack the thread, but does the lock have to be on the gun to leave the FFL? I have had a couple FFLs say the law requires it, but I don't see or can't find anything that says so.

tenpercentfirearms
03-23-2012, 8:15 AM
Not to highjack the thread, but does the lock have to be on the gun to leave the FFL? I have had a couple FFLs say the law requires it, but I don't see or can't find anything that says so.

No. It does have to be in a case, though no one usually cares.

However, now that I think about it. Some municipalities might have different laws on this. You might want to check your local ordinances. Definitely no requirement statewide.

Baconator
03-23-2012, 8:18 AM
That's what I said from the beginning. There is a "safe lock" list just like a "not unsafe handgun" list.

I prefer to just deal with FFL's who are not asshats, and know that the sealed lock in the case is the lock that came with the gun to begin with, and is on the list and doesn't try to extort me out of more money.

CaliB&R
03-23-2012, 8:20 AM
No. It does have to be in a case, though no one usually cares.

However, now that I think about it. Some municipalities might have different laws on this. You might want to check your local ordinances. Definitely no requirement statewide.

Didn't think of local laws, appearently San Diego County has one. Thanks

CHS
03-23-2012, 9:00 AM
Not to hijack the thread, but does the lock have to be on the gun to leave the FFL? I have had a couple FFLs say the law requires it, but I don't see or can't find anything that says so.

This is actually the saddest part about the state and federal lock requirements: There is absolutely no law whatsoever that requires you to actually USE said locks. You're just required to purchase one.

tenpercentfirearms
03-23-2012, 1:38 PM
This is actually the saddest part about the state and federal lock requirements: There is absolutely no law whatsoever that requires you to actually USE said locks. You're just required to purchase one.

Be provided with one. You don't necessarily have to buy it.

mrdd
03-24-2012, 7:58 AM
So to summarize:

The statutory requirement is that the firearm comes with an approved lock as part of a transfer, provided by the transferor, whether he be licensed or not. The reasoning is that the transferor is giving up possession of the lock, the result being that each firearm has a lock that goes with it.

They came up with an exception which allows the transferee to provide the lock, with a bunch of extra requirements. The extra requirements are so that the transferee does not have a single lock at home and bring it in each time he makes an acquisition.

Of course there are ways around this either way, but require extra effort on the part of one or both parties. And, as others have pointed out, there is no statutory requirement to actually use the lock, so this is all hocus-pocus.

stitchnicklas
03-24-2012, 8:22 AM
i ppted a sig recently at ***** and included a newer unopened lock to save the buyer $$$$ and i wrote a hand receipt from a receipt book for the lock like i bought it at a gunshow...

helps get around the anal cops....

a lock is a lock

tenpercentfirearms
03-24-2012, 11:28 PM
i ppted a sig recently at ***** and included a newer unopened lock to save the buyer $$$$ and i wrote a hand receipt from a receipt book for the lock like i bought it at a gunshow...

helps get around the anal cops....

a lock is a lock

No, a FSD is a FSD. I cannot keep for sale or give away locks, they must be FSDs.