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View Full Version : AR Pistols. Legal after single shot is converted?


jink122
03-13-2012, 12:36 AM
I got back from a gun store in burbank after trying to transfer a AR pistol. Since I had already converted it, and since now its technically an off roster pistol that i have in California, I didn't think I would need the single shot sled.

The gun store guy informs me that without the sled not only can i not transfer it, that it is an short barreled rifle. He said the drive home carefully because if the magazine does not feed through the grip, you cannot convert it from its single shot configuration.

He's got me all paranoid now that my AK pistol and AR pistol i currently own, which are now sitting in the single shot sled configuration, might be illegal otherwise?

Is there any legal proof that it is ok to convert the single shot conversions in not pistol grip magazine feeding "off roster" pistols in california or was the FFL correct in his assessment?

stix213
03-13-2012, 12:41 AM
The single shot sled is just to qualify for the exemption to the roster, and has nothing to do with SBR's. Who told you that BS?

Here's the definition of an SBR in the CA PC. You'll notice your gun has to be "designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder" to ever qualify as one. Does that sound like your AK and AR pistols? (the only other concern is if your receiver was ever DROS'd as a longgun instead of a handgun, but that doesn't sound like the case with you)


(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
.....
(20) As used in this section, a "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.


Here's Bwiese's legal explanation on single shot exemptions:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=441766

Modifying a handgun into another legal handgun configuration is legal.

There are no laws restricting an individual or gunsmith from changing an owner’s handgun in one legal configuration to any other legal configuration. (Regardless of its Roster status or Roster exemption: the Roster is really just a gating function to resale.)

Changes to caliber, barrel length can be made, along with rimfire / centerfire changeovers, conversion between single- & double-action status, and conversion between single-shot vs. repeater status, etc. [However, conversion to any of various prohibited firearm categories such as 12276/12276.1PC 'assault weapon', or short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, unconventional pistol, etc. must all be avoided! Both Federal and CA laws must be observed.]


Face to face PPT's are also exempt from roster requirements, so you should have been fine to transfer it without the sled. Sounds like you should use an FFL that knows the law next time. Having a magazine outside the pistol grip on a handgun is only an issue if you don't have a bullet button on the gun, but in that case you would have an illegal AW, not an SBR.

IANAL

wildhawker
03-13-2012, 12:43 AM
Remember my mantra: never take legal advice from gun shops, carry license trainers, law enforcement officers, DOJ, or Eric Holder.

-Brandon

I got back from a gun store in burbank after trying to transfer a AR pistol. Since I had already converted it, and since now its technically an off roster pistol that i have in California, I didn't think I would need the single shot sled.

The gun store guy informs me that without the sled not only can i not transfer it, that it is an short barreled rifle. He said the drive home carefully because if the magazine does not feed through the grip, you cannot convert it from its single shot configuration.

He's got me all paranoid now that my AK pistol and AR pistol i currently own, which are now sitting in the single shot sled configuration, might be illegal otherwise?

Is there any legal proof that it is ok to convert the single shot conversions in not pistol grip magazine feeding "off roster" pistols in california or was the FFL correct in his assessment?

m03
03-13-2012, 6:53 AM
I got back from a gun store in burbank...

If it's Gun World in Burbank, they have their own AR pistols for sale in the back section of the store. Just sayin'.

jink122
03-13-2012, 11:28 AM
The single shot sled is just to qualify for the exemption to the roster, and has nothing to do with SBR's. Who told you that BS?

Here's the definition of an SBR in the CA PC. You'll notice your gun has to be "designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder" to ever qualify as one. Does that sound like your AK and AR pistols? (the only other concern is if your receiver was ever DROS'd as a longgun instead of a handgun, but that doesn't sound like the case with you)



Here's Bwiese's legal explanation on single shot exemptions:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=441766


Face to face PPT's are also exempt from roster requirements, so you should have been fine to transfer it without the sled. Sounds like you should use an FFL that knows the law next time. Having a magazine outside the pistol grip on a handgun is only an issue if you don't have a bullet button on the gun, but in that case you would have an illegal AW, not an SBR.

IANAL
It says at the end of it, "Changes to caliber, barrel length can be made, along with rimfire / centerfire changeovers, conversion between single- & double-action status, and conversion between single-shot vs. repeater status, etc. [However, conversion to any of various prohibited firearm categories such as 12276/12276.1PC 'assault weapon', or short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, unconventional pistol, etc. must all be avoided! Both Federal and CA laws must be observed."

Wouldn't an AR pistol be a unconventional pistol?

chillincody
03-13-2012, 11:32 AM
I have to go with what stix213 said

stix213
03-13-2012, 12:04 PM
It says at the end of it, "Changes to caliber, barrel length can be made, along with rimfire / centerfire changeovers, conversion between single- & double-action status, and conversion between single-shot vs. repeater status, etc. [However, conversion to any of various prohibited firearm categories such as 12276/12276.1PC 'assault weapon', or short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, unconventional pistol, etc. must all be avoided! Both Federal and CA laws must be observed."

Wouldn't an AR pistol be a unconventional pistol?

No, but good of you to not ignore details and be trying to cover all your bases. Here is the definition of an unconventional pistol in the CA PC:

(12)As used in this section, an "unconventional pistol" means a firearm that does not have a rifled bore and has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Your AR pistol has a rifled bore, so doesn't qualify.

FYI, the SBR, Rifle, and Unconventional Pistol definitions are from CA Penal Code 12020 if you want to look them up yourself. Sorry 12020 is the old numbering, but I don't have the new numbering memorized yet.

jink122
03-13-2012, 3:05 PM
So based on the feedback and what i read in the information you all have given me, i can take the mag blocks off and put back my California high capacity ten round mags. Nice. Thank you all for the info and the time.

MonsterMan
03-13-2012, 3:17 PM
It has a BB right?

stix213
03-13-2012, 3:30 PM
It has a BB right?

Yes remember it must have a Bullet Button or similar magazine lock, and you must not ever use greater than 10 round mags. Do that and you are good to go.

jink122
03-13-2012, 4:23 PM
yes BB installed. Cool thanks all.

franklinarmory
03-13-2012, 8:23 PM
I got back from a gun store in burbank after trying to transfer a AR pistol. Since I had already converted it, and since now its technically an off roster pistol that i have in California, I didn't think I would need the single shot sled.

The gun store guy informs me that without the sled not only can i not transfer it, that it is an short barreled rifle. He said the drive home carefully because if the magazine does not feed through the grip, you cannot convert it from its single shot configuration.

He's got me all paranoid now that my AK pistol and AR pistol i currently own, which are now sitting in the single shot sled configuration, might be illegal otherwise?

Is there any legal proof that it is ok to convert the single shot conversions in not pistol grip magazine feeding "off roster" pistols in california or was the FFL correct in his assessment?
If you purchased a fully assembled pistol from a manufacturer, than I am not aware of any law that would preclude you from dropping the sled and installing a 10 round magazine. However, if this is a home built AR pistol that started life as a typical stripped receiver, you may have an issue.