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Sgriob
03-12-2012, 4:40 PM
I'm new, so apologies if this obvious and boring. I spent an hour two in Turner's Reseda this morning trying to buy a Ruger. Did the H@C, showed license, car registration and my Green Card showing that I've been a legal resident for decades. (What can I tell you? I'm a journalist for another country). Then we got stuck on the issue of proof of residency.

I've lived in the same home for 20 years, but because I travel a lot and because I'm lazy, the wife handles utility bills. The only utility that has my name on it is the garbage bill. Is that acceptable to the DOJ, do you think? Will anything else do?

Thanks for your feedback.

(Seems dumb and unfair that I might be denied the right to protect myself with a handgun just because the wife pays the bills for me. And maybe have to pay a $107 cancellation fee.)

philobeddoe
03-12-2012, 4:47 PM
I don't have any utility bills in my name either, I show a US Passport (proof of US Citizenship and ID), CDL (State Issued ID), and bring the registration for a motorcycle (CA residency) and lease paperwork for my truck (CA residency).

None of this makes any sense to me, it's just how I do it.

BretByron
03-12-2012, 4:52 PM
Iv'e only ever used my vehicle Reg. and that was all that was needed. Your physical isn't on your Registration? My I.D. only shows my P.O. Box. and the Reg. was good enough.

CZ97B
03-12-2012, 5:04 PM
Same with me, I have always just had to show my vehicle registration.

However I have also started saving my PG&E bills now, in case I want to buy something new, and the date on the vehicle registration falls past 1 or 2 months new.

Sgriob
03-12-2012, 5:19 PM
Thanks for quick response, guys. My problem seems to be that I'm not a citizen. I am legal, though. My address is on my license and my DMV registration, but the nice gentleman at Turners want more. I'm combing the legal stuff on line, but it's in legalese and I don't have the brain for it.

smrtprts
03-12-2012, 5:53 PM
I have always used 3 months credit card / banking statement for proof of residency. I am a green card holder also.

Sgriob
03-12-2012, 6:38 PM
Thanks Smrtprts. My wife pays most of the bills and my name doesn't appear on them, so I'm limited. ATF says:

"An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence." But he must prove he has lived in the State for 90 days prior to the sale. "Examples of qualifiying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements........ if such documents include residential addresses."

The question, Your Honor, is does garbage collection qualify as a utility?

Ain't it cool to live in a place where you can have guns? Everyone's so paranoid across the Pond. Sooo looking forward to getting out on the range with my 22/45!

halifax
03-12-2012, 8:48 PM
I would think garbage bills (with your name and address) for three consecutive months would work but if you are asking Turners specifically you will have to wait for their response.

Good news for you in your future (http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2011/12/122211-atf-open-letter-state-of-residence.pdf)

Chrushev
03-12-2012, 8:54 PM
Try using the garbage bill, but just call Edison and have them switch the account into your name.

cgood311
03-12-2012, 9:21 PM
wow, funny reading all those posts after having a heck of a time at my local Turners buying my 1911. I just bought a new truck and I live with my brother so I do not have

a) a non temp vehicle registration
b) do not have utility bills in my name.

I asked them if I could use my Social Security along with my Drivers License since the California Department of Justice has them as an exceptionable form of ID under Government Issues ID section. They still said no.

Is this a Turner's only rule? What are other things I can use to complete my two forms?

Boris
03-12-2012, 9:23 PM
Trash bills work for both the 90 days the feds want and it's in an acceptable category for handgun proof of residency. You're in.

dshortone
03-12-2012, 9:24 PM
Garbage bills work. They cover secondary proof of residency AND establish residency!

dshortone
03-12-2012, 9:31 PM
What are other things I can use to complete my two forms?

Lease agreement or property deed (possibly with payment receipts depending on the terms, and US citizenship).

cgood311
03-12-2012, 9:35 PM
Lease agreement or property deed (possibly with payment receipts depending on the terms, and US citizenship).

yeah living with family right now. no trash bills, lease agreements, utilities in my name at all

CZ97B
03-12-2012, 9:39 PM
wow, funny reading all those posts after having a heck of a time at my local Turners buying my 1911. I just bought a new truck and I live with my brother so I do not have

a) a non temp vehicle registration
b) do not have utility bills in my name.

I asked them if I could use my Social Security along with my Drivers License since the California Department of Justice has them as an exceptionable form of ID under Government Issues ID section. They still said no.

Is this a Turner's only rule? What are other things I can use to complete my two forms?

The place I went wanted a PG&E bill and would not take garbage/water or bank account. I was lucky that my DMV registration was only 1 month old. They took that one gladly. I am not sure these guys knew what they were doing. So next time I will probably go someplace else.

gr8dragon88
03-12-2012, 9:56 PM
From page 5 of ATF form 4473:

Question 20.c. Documentation for All Aliens:

Sale of Firearms to Legal Aliens: A buyer who is not a citizen of the United Slates must provide additional documentation (beyond a valid government-issued photo identification that comains the buyer's name. residence address, and date of birth) to establish that he or she has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days immediately prior to the date of the sale. (See Question 13)

Examples of appropriate documents to establish Stale residency are utility bills from each of the last 3 months immediatcly prior to the sale or a lease agreement that demonstrates 90 days of residency immediately prior to the sale. A licensee may attach a copy of the documentation to ATF Form 4473, rather than record the type of documentation in question 20.e.

Acceptable documentation to prove 90-day continuous residency must be original documentation (e.g. utility bills, current bank statements, rent receipts, mortgage payments, lease agreements, personal property tax bills, documents issued by Federal, State, or local government agencies. First-class mail issued by government agency, insurance policies, or bill with current address or major credit card bill).

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Good luck!

halifax
03-12-2012, 10:02 PM
wow, funny reading all those posts after having a heck of a time at my local Turners buying my 1911. I just bought a new truck and I live with my brother so I do not have

a) a non temp vehicle registration
b) do not have utility bills in my name.

I asked them if I could use my Social Security along with my Drivers License since the California Department of Justice has them as an exceptionable form of ID under Government Issues ID section. They still said no.

Is this a Turner's only rule? What are other things I can use to complete my two forms?

The problem with trying to use a Social Security card (or passport) to prove your residency is that neither one of them have your address on it. Nor do they meet the temporal requirement listed in BOLD below:

11 CCR § 4045

Cal. Admin. Code tit. 11, § 4045

Title 11. Law
Division 5. Firearms Regulations
Chapter 4. Evidence of Residency Documentation
Current Section§ 4045. Definitions and Requirements.

The following definitions and requirements apply to documents intended to serve as evidence of residency for the acquisition of a handgun pursuant to Penal Code section 12071(b)(8)(C):
...
1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:

A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.

B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

gr8dragon88
03-12-2012, 11:03 PM
From CA DOJ web site:

What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California?
All firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a licensed dealer under the Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) process. California imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a buyer or transferee. A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age, and either 1) possess an HSC plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with the handgun being purchased or 2) qualify for an HSC exemption.

As part of the DROS process, the buyer must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.

If the buyer is not a U.S. Citizen, then he or she is required to demonstrate that he or she is legally within the United States by providing to the firearms dealer with documentation that contains his/her Alien Registration Number or I-94 Number.

Purchasers of handguns are also required to provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a drivers license or other DMV-issued identification).

(PC Section 12071)

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#3

The penalty for a buyer who illegally receives firearms can be up to 10 years imprisonment and/or up to $250,000 in fines, which are much greater than for dealers:

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2012/03/030512-col-atf-revokes-federal-firearms-license.html

JxPakman
03-13-2012, 11:20 AM
I am a licensed Pharmacy Technician and I brought in my Tech License issued by the California State Board of Pharmacy and that piece of paper has my name and address and is a government issued document. I have used it to purchase 5 guns now from Turners! :53:

Rockerchick
03-13-2012, 11:41 AM
I used to be a green card holder also and I used my vehicle registration and 3 months worth of the most recent bank statements and that always sufficed. Proof of residency is very straight forward and there's nothing Turners can do about it except follow the law. By the way, it also says on the 4473 form that green card holders need to provide specific paperwork.

Chrushev
03-13-2012, 12:52 PM
I used to be a green card holder also and I used my vehicle registration and 3 months worth of the most recent bank statements and that always sufficed. Proof of residency is very straight forward and there's nothing Turners can do about it except follow the law. By the way, it also says on the 4473 form that green card holders need to provide specific paperwork.

Except they have the right to refuse service to anyone. Law does not dictate that they have to sell you a firearm.

One thing they will accept through if you are living with relatives... go to local Office Depot and buy a "Lease Agreement" (its like 8$)... fill it out with whomever owns the property, your mother or father or whatever.. go to a bank and have it notarized... make the lease for like 1$ so that you dont have to pay any taxes etc.

now you have a leasing agreement.

p7m8jg
03-13-2012, 1:08 PM
Of course, none of this applies to the more lethal long arms - just evil handguns.

I'm so glad our intelligent and expert legislature used their infinite, omnipotent wisdom and realized that apt distinction between the two! What would I do without them!

gr8dragon88
03-13-2012, 8:26 PM
actually the Fed requires the same documentation for both long and hand guns.

you can search for sample lease agreements for you own use. here's a sample:

http://www.totalrealestatesolutions.com/realestateforms/html/RentalContract1.html

dshortone
03-13-2012, 10:50 PM
yeah living with family right now. no trash bills, lease agreements, utilities in my name at all

Get a lease agreement from your parents/family. I've seen that happen on multiple occasions. You can frequently download them from the internet or they used to be for sale at office supply stores.

Distro
03-14-2012, 3:55 AM
I made this for someone in a different thread. Print out this lease agreement, fill it in, have the person you are living with sign it. Turners doesn't even need for it to be notarized. Enjoy your new purchase.


http://i.imgur.com/QbKet.png

Edit: removed rent amount, so you could fill it in with $10.00 or whatever.

Chrushev
03-14-2012, 11:03 AM
I made this for someone in a different thread. Print out this lease agreement, fill it in, have the person you are living with sign it. Turners doesn't even need for it to be notarized. Enjoy your new purchase.




Edit: removed rent amount, so you could fill it in with $10.00 or whatever.

Great to know that they dont even need it to be notarized. Which is actually weird since the official govmnt paperwork says that it does.. but all better for us :)

Thanks for posting that, I will make sure to save a copy just in case.

Eddy's Shooting Sports
03-14-2012, 11:09 AM
Garbage bills should be fine. Especially if you are billed through your city. Then it is a "government agency". Where I live, water, sewer, and garbage are on one bill from the city and these bills are good for state proof, fed proof for aliens, AND Fed proof if your ID doesn't match your current address.


Greg David
Eddy's Shooting Sports
400 Moffett Blvd.,Suite F
Mountain View, CA 94043
(660)969-GUNS

T-F 12-7 W 12-9 Sat 11-5
Closed Sun/Mon

Chrushev
03-14-2012, 11:17 AM
double post

Turner's Outdoorsman
03-16-2012, 12:56 PM
I'm new, so apologies if this obvious and boring. I spent an hour two in Turner's Reseda this morning trying to buy a Ruger. Did the H@C, showed license, car registration and my Green Card showing that I've been a legal resident for decades. (What can I tell you? I'm a journalist for another country). Then we got stuck on the issue of proof of residency.

I've lived in the same home for 20 years, but because I travel a lot and because I'm lazy, the wife handles utility bills. The only utility that has my name on it is the garbage bill. Is that acceptable to the DOJ, do you think? Will anything else do?

Thanks for your feedback.

(Seems dumb and unfair that I might be denied the right to protect myself with a handgun just because the wife pays the bills for me. And maybe have to pay a $107 cancellation fee.)

Interestingly enough, we've been noticed that the next version of the 4473 will remove the requirement for alien residents to provide 90 day proof of state residency.

This will not change CA handgun residency nor will it remove the ATF requirement to provide additional documentation when one's CDL does not show your residence address nor will it make it easier for non-immigrant aliens to purchase guns. But it will relieve a burden for quite a few gun owners who are currently required to provide something for the state and the feds when buying a handgun.

The new 4473 was supposed to be out this month, but we're still waiting.

xoutxkastx
03-19-2012, 12:44 PM
Interestingly enough, we've been noticed that the next version of the 4473 will remove the requirement for alien residents to provide 90 day proof of state residency.

This will not change CA handgun residency nor will it remove the ATF requirement to provide additional documentation when one's CDL does not show your residence address nor will it make it easier for non-immigrant aliens to purchase guns. But it will relieve a burden for quite a few gun owners who are currently required to provide something for the state and the feds when buying a handgun.

The new 4473 was supposed to be out this month, but we're still waiting.

On the new 4473 a resident alien will not have to provide 90 days proof of residency. So all we need to complete the registration (once the new form is out) is a CDL & either a utility bill or car registration?

Turner's Outdoorsman
03-23-2012, 11:57 AM
On the new 4473 a resident alien will not have to provide 90 days proof of residency. So all we need to complete the registration (once the new form is out) is a CDL & either a utility bill or car registration?

For handguns, you'll just have to follow the same CA residency requirements as usual (vehicle reg, utility bill, lease/rental agreement, etc.); that is not needed on long guns.

For the Feds, the only time you'll need something else is if the address that you use for 4473 is not the one printed on your CDL in which case you can use a govt-issued document (such as car registration) that does have that residence address on it.

xerxesdiego
04-03-2012, 4:10 PM
Recently purchased a stripped lowers.
I got my Resident Alien Card last January, thinking i lived in California for almost 8 years now. I got a call from my gun dealer that CA DOJ put a DELAY on my purchase on the 10th day, then after about 3 hours, got a call again that CA DOJ DENIED my purchase. Called CA DOJ, they said ICE and FBI confirmed that i got my green card 3rd week of January of this year, so it needs to be exactly 90 days from that date. Almost ordered something online...good thing my gun dealer called. CA DOJ are very friendly and they will tell you the reason why. At least my gun dealer will hold my lowers for 18 more days till that 90 days of residency. i just have to apply again and do the DROS. :( oh well...
im just hoping all my parts are still in stock by that time...(everyone's panic buying...)