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cwiz
03-12-2012, 2:03 PM
If you have a bullet button installed on your AR, is it legal to use a magnetic tool to pull the magazine latch from the left side of the rifle to release the magazine? The magnetic tool would be in a glove, bracelet, necklace, pocket etc... not attached to the rifle at any point, except to manipulate the magazine latch mechanism.

I remember seeing a post about this a while ago but didn't see a response at the time.

Thanks for the input!

DSB
03-12-2012, 2:14 PM
Several threads on magnetic "bullet buttons." Hope these help answer the question.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=238857

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=507340

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=336447

tenpercentfirearms
03-12-2012, 2:16 PM
Its questionable. I was going to say if it was on say a glove and as soon as you moved your hand away from the rifle, it was no longer attached to the firearm, that sounds legit.

However, is the glove really a tool is it just part of the firearm that you have your hand inside? I think it is too much of a gray area for me when the Ultimate Bullet Button Tools work and if I really want a detachable magazine, I just use my featureless rifles.

stix213
03-12-2012, 2:27 PM
In a glove is a very interesting twist on this....

:popcorn:

Rock6.3
03-12-2012, 2:40 PM
Left side of AR, magnet to pull the mag release?

So long as it is on the glove and not attached it sounds like a tool to me.

cwiz
03-12-2012, 2:57 PM
However, is the glove really a tool is it just part of the firearm that you have your hand inside?

LoL, I wish this was considered ridiculous, but we live in Cali so common sense is rarely the law of the land. :facepalm:



Left side of AR, magnet to pull the mag release?

Yes, the idea would be to sew in a strong magnet on the inside of the left hand glove. The magnet could be located at the fingertip, knuckle, palm etc depending on what feels the best. Place glove/magnet on the latch, pull the latch back, glove/magnet releases from rifle as you pull away, left hand pulls the old mag out and puts a new one in.

I am struggling to see how this would be a violation.

fd15k
03-12-2012, 3:02 PM
I had this same thought, and posted a demo video about a couple of years ago. Consensus was that it's not a good idea, including opinion from bwiese.

This is the thread (though I've deleted the video since then) :

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=256988

Purple K
03-12-2012, 4:25 PM
Would a magnet be strong enough?

fd15k
03-12-2012, 4:33 PM
Would a magnet be strong enough?

In my tests the mag would fall out when using a nickel-size (1/4" thick) neodymium magnet, but smaller ones could work if good contact with the latch can be achieved (some portion of the standard latch is sunk into the receiver).

nitroxdiver
03-12-2012, 4:40 PM
I posted a similar question with a similar idea except my idea had the magnet on the bottom on a spare magazine, similar concept to the ubbt. Consensus was that the tool became attached as soon as the magnet made contact with the mag release. It sparked quite a discussion, and at the least keeps us thinking. If not for thinking outside the box and questioning, the whole oll and BB thing wouldn't have happened. I'm certainly not a lawyer, so I will refrain from giving my opinion, just wanted to share my previous idea. Thanks for the idea and the discussion that is sure to follow.
Take care

Sir Stunna Lot
03-12-2012, 4:57 PM
interesting... videos or pics?

wildhawker
03-12-2012, 5:04 PM
interesting... videos or pics?

Why would anyone want to post on a public forum [often monitored by law enforcement] evidence of a possible crime?

-Brandon

Blackhawk556
03-12-2012, 5:08 PM
Why would anyone want to post on a public forum [often monitored by law enforcement] evidence of a possible crime?

-Brandon

If they are in another state would it be better??
what if it's a company trying to make a device that will comply with CA laws and they are trying to show people in CA how it works?

odysseus
03-12-2012, 5:10 PM
I think it is too much of a gray area for me when the Ultimate Bullet Button Tools work and if I really want a detachable magazine, I just use my featureless rifles.

Agreed.

wildhawker
03-12-2012, 5:17 PM
If they are in another state would it be better??
what if it's a company trying to make a device that will comply with CA laws and they are trying to show people in CA how it works?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

-Brandon

Merc1138
03-12-2012, 5:21 PM
Its questionable. I was going to say if it was on say a glove and as soon as you moved your hand away from the rifle, it was no longer attached to the firearm, that sounds legit.

However, is the glove really a tool is it just part of the firearm that you have your hand inside? I think it is too much of a gray area for me when the Ultimate Bullet Button Tools work and if I really want a detachable magazine, I just use my featureless rifles.

Sounds fine until you take the glove off, stick the magnet in the hole, and the glove stays attached because of the magnet.

edit: I just noticed that the OP meant to use the glove to pull the magazine catch from the left side. That's an even bigger problem since the magnet would have to be powerful enough to overpower the mag catch spring(doesn't have to be from the right side), so unless you started packing lead weights into the glove and made it weigh quite a few pounds, it would definitely end up attached to the mag catch via magnet.

gvbsat
03-12-2012, 5:29 PM
If a BB is such an irritation, just go featureless.

cwiz
03-12-2012, 5:39 PM
Would a magnet be strong enough?


In some crude testing I estimate you need ~3-5lbs to overcome the spring force on a mil-spec spring. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Looking at different kinds of magnets, the strongest N52 rare earth magnets have no problem producing that kind of pull force in a very small cylinder, say 1/4"OD x 1/4"tall


After reading up on the other magnetic ideas, the prevailing opinion appears to be that if it can stick to the rifle on its own, it could be considered part of the rifle which is an immediate no-go.

I'm just going to let this idea go, I don't want to spend my limited amount of play money on lawyer fees!

cwiz
03-12-2012, 5:43 PM
If a BB is such an irritation, just go featureless.

Ya, sure, I'll just build another rifle with the $1,000 I'm going to find in my couch cushions when I get home.

Seems like everyone's solution is to buy another gun. :facepalm:

I prefer to enjoy the guns I already own, and rely on my ingenuity to make them better! (legally) :tt2:

HBrebel
03-12-2012, 5:46 PM
One would think that they would just get tired of watching us carve paths around their roadblocks and leave us be. There is real crime out there to fight, no need to harass the small guys.

stix213
03-12-2012, 5:56 PM
Ya, sure, I'll just build another rifle with the $1,000 I'm going to find in my couch cushions when I get home.

Seems like everyone's solution is to buy another gun. :facepalm:

I prefer to enjoy the guns I already own, and rely on my ingenuity to make them better! (legally) :tt2:

Only takes a few fairly inexpensive parts to convert a BB equipped AR to featureless. At most you're looking at a new muzzle device, putting a bolt through your collapsible stock, getting a hammerhead grip, and getting a standard mag release button. Under $200 at most, maybe closer to $100.

stix213
03-12-2012, 6:00 PM
To continue the discussion of the magnetic mag release tool, I would think if you weighted the glove or other tool enough so that it could never hold onto the rifle when let go (instead it would fall off the rifle), it would be legit. Not sure how heavy it would need to be. If it doesn't stay attached to the rifle on its own, its not part of the rifle, so still a tool regardless of magnetism.

IANAL

edit: Not sure how practical this would be, but for example if you had a long metal bar with a magnet on the end that was heavy enough so you had to be holding it for it to stay attached to the mag release, and it would always fall off under it own weight when let go, I'd think you'd be legit. There's probably several more practical variations on this idea. Prehaps the bar could be velcro'd to the back of the glove on your left hand.

jwkincal
03-12-2012, 6:14 PM
Did I misinterpret what the OP said? Wouldn't the condition of the tool/glove being stuck to the rifle in this case result in a state where the magazine would not remain inserted until the tool was removed?

Doesn't the tool's attachment to the rifle in this case result in a non-fixed magazine (i.e. single-shot) configuration of the rifle? Said configuration likewise negated upon removal of the tool? Clearly the tool is necessary. It is also by observation neither a fixed magazine nor a detachable magazine firearm when the tool is attached/in use.

I wouldn't want to be the test case, but a lawyer worth what he's paid ought to be able to make it stick.

...but you still won't be able to use 30-rounders. Which tends to argue in favor of the featureless approach.

Merc1138
03-12-2012, 6:31 PM
Did I misinterpret what the OP said? Wouldn't the condition of the tool/glove being stuck to the rifle in this case result in a state where the magazine would not remain inserted until the tool was removed?


Sticking a big magnet to magazine catch wouldn't prevent a mag from being held in place.

To continue the discussion of the magnetic mag release tool, I would think if you weighted the glove or other tool enough so that it could never hold onto the rifle when let go (instead it would fall off the rifle), it would be legit. Not sure how heavy it would need to be. If it doesn't stay attached to the rifle on its own, its not part of the rifle, so still a tool regardless of magnetism.

IANAL

edit: Not sure how practical this would be, but for example if you had a long metal bar with a magnet on the end that was heavy enough so you had to be holding it for it to stay attached to the mag release, and it would always fall off under it own weight when let go, I'd think you'd be legit. There's probably several more practical variations on this idea. Prehaps the bar could be velcro'd to the back of the glove on your left hand.

Sure, but you'd want to wear a 5-10 pound glove? Remember, you're having to overcome the magazine catch spring(the only way to be able to use it to drop the mag from the left side), so you'd need a magnet capable of that much pull(3-5 pounds or so like people have said), then attach it to a glove that weighs even more than that so it falls off on it's own when you pick the rifle up. Even having 2-3 pounds attached to a glove would be awkward, let alone 5+.

jwkincal
03-12-2012, 6:34 PM
Sticking a big magnet to magazine catch wouldn't prevent a mag from being held in place.
Remember, you're having to overcome the magazine catch spring(the only way to be able to use it to drop the mag from the left side)

If the magazine catch spring is being held compressed, what will hold the magazine in place?

bohoki
03-12-2012, 6:35 PM
i say as long as the tool is affixed to you it only becomes illegal if it is sticking to the gun without you

Lostsheep
03-12-2012, 8:28 PM
Everyone always forgets that magnets are also capable of pushing. Furthermore, different materials have different permeability.

stix213
03-12-2012, 9:25 PM
Everyone always forgets that magnets are also capable of pushing. Furthermore, different materials have different permeability.

Hey I like that.... So you have a magnet internal to the BB, and when your glove with the same polarity touches the BB the mag drops by pushing the mag release away from your finger. That would be sick.

Merc1138
03-12-2012, 10:15 PM
If the magazine catch spring is being held compressed, what will hold the magazine in place?

Uhh, it's not held compressed just by putting a magnet on the mag catch on the left side of the rifle. Not sure why you think it would be. The mag catch sits almost flush with the mag well except for the raised area on the receiver, and you have no way of preventing the magnet from sliding over off of the "bump".

Hey I like that.... So you have a magnet internal to the BB, and when your glove with the same polarity touches the BB the mag drops by pushing the mag release away from your finger. That would be sick.

So how are you going to keep the magnet on your finger that pushes the magnet in the mag catch, from sticking elsewhere(like the trigger)? Not that I think it would be a legal issue if your glove was magnetically stuck to the barrel or something, but that would be annoying, and it would take a noticeable magnet(man, that'd be hell on the trigger). Plus with that much magnetic force you run into another problem, magnets wanting to slip past eachother. If you have a couple of strong magnets on the fridge try to push their opposing poles together, you'll be fighting that side to side motion with your finger.

locosway
03-12-2012, 10:22 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

-Brandon

I don't really agree with this. After all, we ended up with OLL's and so forth because of people testing the law and see what could be legal.

Using a magnet that's not attached to a rifle should be fine given what we currently know about how the BB/non-detachable magazine is supposed to work. A magnet would be a tool, and it's clearly not attached nor could it be attached since the receiver is aluminum. Inside of a glove would make that distinction even more clear, would it not?

wildhawker
03-12-2012, 10:36 PM
No, we have OLLs because of the express value of regulatory text and the statutes which underly it.

In any case, my reply was specifically to the post I quoted, not the general subject of innovation and creating new maglocks or maglock tools.

-Brandon

I don't really agree with this. After all, we ended up with OLL's and so forth because of people testing the law and see what could be legal.

Using a magnet that's not attached to a rifle should be fine given what we currently know about how the BB/non-detachable magazine is supposed to work. A magnet would be a tool, and it's clearly not attached nor could it be attached since the receiver is aluminum. Inside of a glove would make that distinction even more clear, would it not?

Merc1138
03-12-2012, 11:02 PM
I don't really agree with this. After all, we ended up with OLL's and so forth because of people testing the law and see what could be legal.

Using a magnet that's not attached to a rifle should be fine given what we currently know about how the BB/non-detachable magazine is supposed to work. A magnet would be a tool, and it's clearly not attached nor could it be attached since the receiver is aluminum. Inside of a glove would make that distinction even more clear, would it not?

What about all of the non-aluminum parts? Specifically, the mag catch, button, and spring? People use magnets every day to attach things to their refrigerator. How they work isn't some mystery.

locosway
03-12-2012, 11:04 PM
What about all of the non-aluminum parts? Specifically, the mag catch, button, and spring? People use magnets every day to attach things to their refrigerator. How they work isn't some mystery.

Through a glove and aluminum piece. The magnet would not technically be attached to anything. It would be held in place by a magnetic force. I think for that purpose (in conjunction with a glove) it would be akin to a bullet being attached to the mag release for the .5 seconds it was touching it.

Merc1138
03-12-2012, 11:41 PM
The bullet doesn't stick in place due to anything. Magnets are attached to your fridge via magnetism. You're not going to be able to convince a judge, DA, jury, etc. that magnets are not attached to their refrigerator via magnetism.

https://www.google.com/search?q=magnetic+attachment

Lots of things use magnets as a form of attachment, including dentures apparently(huh, I did not know that). The idea that you're going to show someone one item stuck to another using a magnet and claim that it's not attached is just silly. Maybe if the jury somehow turned out to be only juggalos you might be able to convince them it's not really attached and magnets are a miracle of some sort.

Chaos47
03-12-2012, 11:55 PM
Maybe if the jury somehow turned out to be only juggalos you might be able to convince them it's not really attached and magnets are a miracle of some sort.

Win!

stix213
03-13-2012, 12:01 AM
So how are you going to keep the magnet on your finger that pushes the magnet in the mag catch, from sticking elsewhere(like the trigger)? Not that I think it would be a legal issue if your glove was magnetically stuck to the barrel or something, but that would be annoying, and it would take a noticeable magnet(man, that'd be hell on the trigger). Plus with that much magnetic force you run into another problem, magnets wanting to slip past eachother. If you have a couple of strong magnets on the fridge try to push their opposing poles together, you'll be fighting that side to side motion with your finger.

Sticking to the trigger is an obvious problem, but I don't think the slip issue is anything to worry about since the mag release would move away from the glove magnet when approached.

(thinking out loud... what if a glove were designed with a battery powered electromagnet in the tip of the pointer that would activate when the finger is fully extended when reaching for the mag release, but deactivated when curved as in on the trigger? That would eliminate any sticking issues to non-aluminum parts.)

resident-shooter
03-13-2012, 1:51 AM
On a mini 14? 100% legal :D

jwkincal
03-13-2012, 7:24 AM
Uhh, it's not held compressed just by putting a magnet on the mag catch on the left side of the rifle. Not sure why you think it would be. The mag catch sits almost flush with the mag well except for the raised area on the receiver, and you have no way of preventing the magnet from sliding over off of the "bump".

OK so I am misinterpreting the OP's design spec (or you are, but more likely it's me). I had envisioned a hardcore rare-earth (neodymium or something like that) magnet which could compress that spring of its own accord, thus essentially creating a magnetic "key" which would hold the catch open while it was in place and thereby actually change the nature of the rifle while it was attached (sort of the Bizzarro-world Mag-Magnet).

I agree that otherwise the push-pull difference is fundamentally negligible, it is just another riff on the already-known-to-be-illegal magnetically attached magazine release tool.

ETA I would also submit that neither pull-oriented method would be desirable from a tactical usability standpoint.

locosway
03-13-2012, 7:35 AM
The bullet doesn't stick in place due to anything. Magnets are attached to your fridge via magnetism. You're not going to be able to convince a judge, DA, jury, etc. that magnets are not attached to their refrigerator via magnetism.

https://www.google.com/search?q=magnetic+attachment

Lots of things use magnets as a form of attachment, including dentures apparently(huh, I did not know that). The idea that you're going to show someone one item stuck to another using a magnet and claim that it's not attached is just silly. Maybe if the jury somehow turned out to be only juggalos you might be able to convince them it's not really attached and magnets are a miracle of some sort.

So, make the mag release out of magnetic material and then use another magnet with the same pole to push it away. And the magnet would be in your glove. Nothing ever attaches, it's just a push with magnetic force.

Merc1138
03-13-2012, 9:01 AM
So, make the mag release out of magnetic material and then use another magnet with the same pole to push it away. And the magnet would be in your glove. Nothing ever attaches, it's just a push with magnetic force.

But the magnet in your glove would have another pole. Take the glove off and nothing would be there to stop you from flipping the glove over and having the magnet stick and end up hanging off the side of the rifle.

A monopole magnet doesn't exist.

An electromagnet would probably be just as impractical as stuffing the glove with lead to weight it down so it wouldn't stick.

stix213
03-13-2012, 10:11 AM
An electromagnet would probably be just as impractical as stuffing the glove with lead to weight it down so it wouldn't stick.

Obviously that depends on just how big you have to make it.

Merc1138
03-13-2012, 10:29 AM
Obviously that depends on just how big you have to make it.

The problem would be the coil required. The battery source is easy to deal with by just running cables up your arm to a backpack/fannypack/whatever. Because you're relying on opposing poles, you'd need to use the end of the coil, so the opposite end of the coil would have to be facing away from the mag release. Your finger would be in the way if you tried to put it on the pad of your finger. If you made an extension of the fingertip on the glove, you still have the problem of the size of the coil required. Even a small commercial 12vdc or 24vdc powered magnet is going to weigh a couple of ounces(not a huge problem) but you're talking about cramming a cubic inch or larger into the end of a glove(and that's assuming you can get the poles facing correctly).

Harrison_Bergeron
03-13-2012, 11:31 AM
But the magnet in your glove would have another pole. Take the glove off and nothing would be there to stop you from flipping the glove over and having the magnet stick and end up hanging off the side of the rifle.

How would that be any different than the UBBT, if the magnet required to remove the mag is sticking to the barrel then it isn't going to be able to activate the mag release.

Merc1138
03-13-2012, 11:41 AM
How would that be any different than the UBBT, if the magnet required to remove the mag is sticking to the barrel then it isn't going to be able to activate the mag release.

If it gets stuck to the magazine catch on the left side(then I guess it wouldn't matter which way around the glove was flipped at that point).

It's still ridiculously impractical and most of the ideas are just as problematic as the mag magnet currently is. The only one with any merit is the electromagnet idea(all you'd need is a pressure switch to activate it on the tip that gets pressed against the mag release to keep it from being activated constantly).

Overbear
03-13-2012, 12:25 PM
Why not just wear a thimble on your middle finger, with a rod welded to it. Reach middle finger forward, push into bullet button with rod, mag drops..

its a tool (thimble) your done.

Merc1138
03-13-2012, 12:29 PM
Why not just wear a thimble on your middle finger, with a rod welded to it. Reach middle finger forward, push into bullet button with rod, mag drops..

its a tool (thimble) your done.

Because a thimble can fall off. There is the g-pik, which is a finger stylus for PDAs that some people use. I've also seen people simply put a rivet in the end of a finger on a glove as well.

The problem with these is that you still need to find the hole in the mag release to shove the tool in there. That's why people want something that doesn't require fine motor skills to operate, or simply have fall off their finger to lose.

Overbear
03-13-2012, 12:31 PM
Because a thimble can fall off. There is the g-pik, which is a finger stylus for PDAs that some people use. I've also seen people simply put a rivet in the end of a finger on a glove as well.

The problem with these is that you still need to find the hole in the mag release to shove the tool in there. That's why people want something that doesn't require fine motor skills to operate, or simply have fall off their finger to lose.

Humm..a little sticky gel in the thimble will solve the fall off problem, and a milled 'cup' put around the bullet button so it channels the rod in (like the mag well of a race gun)

*taps chin* this might work out.