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BlindRacer
03-12-2012, 11:43 AM
I know it's legal to, but if used in a defensive shooting, would it be smart?

Specifically, I'm looking at the Ruger LC9. Something to have on me around the house, and to eventually carry once LTC becomes available.

The Thumb Safety, and Mag Disconnect Safety, can be removed, and I think the Loaded Chamber Indicator can be modified (keep from popping up, and fill in and paint the text). I don't want anything in the way from the gun going bang when I pull the trigger. It's already got a stiff trigger, so there's no point for a manual safety.

I'm sure it would be okay for a criminal case, cause a clean shoot is either clean or it's not. But what about for civil cases. Is this something that could cause me to loose everything?

stix213
03-12-2012, 11:47 AM
You're going to get advice in this thread that its a bad idea, but I challenge anyone to cite an actual instance where legal modification of a gun was the critical factor in differentiating between guilt and innocence in an otherwise "good shoot."

jb7706
03-12-2012, 12:06 PM
Have a read here: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/brad-kozak/the-massad-ayoob-chronicles-part-v/ The two things I would strongly advise against doing and have strongly advised against doing, would be a trigger pull lighter than the factory recommends, and removal or de-activation of a safety device. -Massad Ayoob

BlindRacer
03-12-2012, 12:06 PM
You're going to get advice in this thread that its a bad idea, but I challenge anyone to cite an actual instance where legal modification of a gun was the critical factor in differentiating between guilt and innocence in an otherwise "good shoot."

Like I said, I don't think the criminal side, determining a 'good shoot' is the problem. In Cali though, even if found innocent of the crime, can't the family of the bad guy still sue your pants off and win? That's what I understood.

nastyhabts26
03-12-2012, 12:10 PM
When in doubt get a good double action revolver.
You pull the trigger and it goes Bang!
No safetys to disconnect, no cocking or charging the chamber.
Simple to use in a confusing situation and utterly reliable.

BlindRacer
03-12-2012, 12:13 PM
The two things I would strongly advise against doing and have strongly advised against doing, would be a trigger pull lighter than the factory recommends, and removal or de-activation of a safety device. -Massad Ayoob

I understand the lightening of the trigger (don't agree, but understand)

However, who determines if something is a 'safety device'?

I strongly dislike safeties on my guns. Non Single Action anyways (1911 style)

I find it extremely dangerous to have a thumb safety on a double/striker gun. If it gets flicked on on accident, it could get me killed.

Same goes for a mag-disconnect. If the mag drops on accident, leaving one in the chamber, that could get me killed.

Loaded Chamber indicator is going to get many other stupid people killed, cause they aren't going to physically check. Dumb idea - teach safe gun handling and bad things won't happen.


I guess I might have to just get something like a G26 that comes without all that extra stuff. Just was looking for something thinner than that, that was on the Roster.

BlindRacer
03-12-2012, 12:17 PM
When in doubt get a good double action revolver.
You pull the trigger and it goes Bang!
No safetys to disconnect, no cocking or charging the chamber.
Simple to use in a confusing situation and utterly reliable.

Very True, but with only ~6 shots, and tougher reload...

I'm just not a revolver guy.



I'm considering the Glock 26, but I'm a relatively thin/small framed guy, and almost anything is going to be difficult to conceal on me.

But this is all aside to this thread.

Connor P Price
03-12-2012, 12:18 PM
I understand the lightening of the trigger (don't agree, but understand)

However, who determines if something is a 'safety device'?

I strongly dislike safeties on my guns. Non Single Action anyways (1911 style)

I find it extremely dangerous to have a thumb safety on a double/striker gun. If it gets flicked on on accident, it could get me killed.

Same goes for a mag-disconnect. If the mag drops on accident, leaving one in the chamber, that could get me killed.

Loaded Chamber indicator is going to get many other stupid people killed, cause they aren't going to physically check. Dumb idea - teach safe gun handling and bad things won't happen.


I guess I might have to just get something like a G26 that comes without all that extra stuff. Just was looking for something thinner than that, that was on the Roster.

This is exactly why I use Glocks.

jb7706
03-12-2012, 1:40 PM
I understand the lightening of the trigger (don't agree, but understand)

However, who determines if something is a 'safety device'?

I strongly dislike safeties on my guns. Non Single Action anyways (1911 style)

I find it extremely dangerous to have a thumb safety on a double/striker gun. If it gets flicked on on accident, it could get me killed.

Same goes for a mag-disconnect. If the mag drops on accident, leaving one in the chamber, that could get me killed.

Loaded Chamber indicator is going to get many other stupid people killed, cause they aren't going to physically check. Dumb idea - teach safe gun handling and bad things won't happen.


I guess I might have to just get something like a G26 that comes without all that extra stuff. Just was looking for something thinner than that, that was on the Roster.

Mas' rule of thumb is that if you don't like a safety device on a gun don't use it for defense. As to what determines a safety device it will go to what the manufacturer calls it. In his class we discussed this a bit. Even plugging the lock on S&W handguns could be used to say you defeated a safety device. Other items included the LCI, mag disconnect, pinning grip safeties, decockers etc. Mas also made an argument for having DA/SA revolvers worked over to make them DAO due to the generally very light pull on SA shots.

As you said, none of these things may have an impact on a criminal case, but civil courts are a different animal. It's a lot easier to lose (a lot of money) there.

IVC
03-12-2012, 1:53 PM
This is exactly why I use Glocks.

Goes both ways. The less (external) safeties you have, the more you have to know about the gun and understand how it works. Two words: Plaxico Burres.

Glocks and revolvers have their role. The key is to know and understand your firearm and have enough practice so your muscle memory is strong.

Connor P Price
03-12-2012, 2:13 PM
Goes both ways. The less (external) safeties you have, the more you have to know about the gun and understand how it works. Two words: Plaxico Burres.

Glocks and revolvers have their role. The key is to know and understand your firearm and have enough practice so your muscle memory is strong.

The Plaxico Burress incident does not suggest a problem with Glocks or that they require a greater level of understanding to use properly. He was not using a holster which is incredibly foolish, perhaps because he fancies himself some sort of gangster. Use of a proper retention holster would prevent his issue.

In any event, I would be hesitant to buy a gun to carry then remove or disable its safety devices to make it function more like a Glock. It shouldn't be an issue in criminal court at all, but in civil court in California things could get dicey. I'd rather just carry the Glock.

An example, I'd never carry a gun with a magazine disconnect. I'd rather buy it without that dangerous feature than buy one that has it and disable it though.

IVC
03-12-2012, 2:37 PM
The Plaxico Burress incident does not suggest a problem with Glocks or that they require a greater level of understanding to use properly. He was not using a holster which is incredibly foolish, perhaps because he fancies himself some sort of gangster. Use of a proper retention holster would prevent his issue.

To the extent that you have to *know* not to Mexican-carry a Glock, they do require greater understanding. Much like "cocked and locked" is a 1911 way of carrying that is safe only because of how this particular type of gun is constructed.

Not a problem with either Glock, 1911 or revolvers. Just that different firearms have different caveats. Ease of use typically comes at the expense of heavy trigger (DA revolver), restrictions on how to carry (Glock), or having to "ride the safety" before firing (1911). There isn't "the best" way.

Otherwise, I agree with your complete post.

nicki
03-12-2012, 2:46 PM
In a criminal trial, you can refuse to testify, you don't get to avoid the stand in a civil trial unless you just want to throw the case. Ask OJ about some shoes.:eek:

You could be cross examined on every modification you made to your gun and a dirtback's lawyer is going to try to a dumb jury pool that he can manipulate with his twisting of your words.

For example, lets say you had a trigger job on your pistol to lighten the trigger. If you had a 4 lb trigger, you could argue that your trigger job was done because a smooth trigger enhances your marksmanship, so you would have better control over your gun under stressful situations.

Now lets say you had a 2 lb trigger and because you had a hair trigger you fired an extra round or two more than you intended. People have lost track of the number of rounds they have actually fired in gunfights.

Life is not fair, accept and deal with that fact and then adjust your life accordingly.

Nicki

BrokerB
03-12-2012, 3:03 PM
Removing a chamber loaded indicator is retarded
Comparing double stack blocks to single lc9 is also retarded . Lc9 is much easier to conceal

Do what ever makes you safer . If anything you do contributes to saving your or your loved ones life , i personally have no price on that . The dead scumbags family can try all they want to squeeze blood from that rock . My sons education fund cannot be taken .

BlindRacer
03-12-2012, 3:09 PM
Removing a chamber loaded indicator is retarded
Comparing double stack blocks to single lc9 is also retarded . Lc9 is much easier to conceal

Regarding the LCI, my family and I, we will ALWAYS check the chamber. I'm not going to take some flip up tabs word for it. THAT's 'retarded'.

As far as the LC9 vs Glock26, I was looking for a very small 9mm. If you've got any suggestions of something similar to the LC9 in size/weight, does not have all the extra lawyer features, and that is on the CA Roster, then please share.

Connor P Price
03-12-2012, 3:14 PM
Removing a chamber loaded indicator is retarded
Comparing double stack blocks to single lc9 is also retarded .

Neither of these comments seem at all constructive, I suppose that's forgivable if not for your ignorant use of the term "retarded." You may notice that a lot of people take offense to it and it just comes off rude.

Patrick Aherne
03-12-2012, 3:27 PM
Most times, when folks get "trigger jobs" they result in the pistol being significantly less reliable. YMMV, but that's my experience.

BrokerB
03-12-2012, 3:37 PM
using retarded --if its offensive to you that's your problem.

I think that removing a LCI is not a fully developed thought..which I call retarded thought, dont take it personally unless you want to .

The LCI on the LC9 is great- you can also see the actually brass of the case. I treat every firearm as it is loaded so its not an issue to me

Removing the mag disconnect is something I do on my LC9- safety does not bother me as I dont ever use it and sweep it anyways to make sure once I draw

I have my LTC and the Lc9 has become my carry 99% of the time

wikioutdoor
03-12-2012, 3:47 PM
Way off topic people - plaxico is a moron. I will give thumbs up to free speech though.

To the OP I keep my glock in a serpa holster without a round in the chamber, my safety is the sound of chambering a round.

It also has a 3.5 lb lone wolf trigger connector and I would still have to be beyond reckless to discharge it unintentionally.

Stonewalker
03-12-2012, 4:02 PM
Whenever these types of threads come up I wonder what is more damaging - somebody (in this example) being ruined by a civil suit over a modified gun or the damage this cultural fear does to self-defense use of a firearm. I think it's a bit of the loudspeaker into the microphone effect.

It goes like this:
('certain things' can be whatever the fear is regarding. In this case it is the fear of modifying a self-defense gun)

>>> People "understand" that doing certain things will get you sued in civil court
>>> gun owners with the best of intentions tell other gun owners to avoid doing 'certain things' to avoid civil lawsuits
>>> this sentiment gets to the non-gun-owning population and they think that doing 'certain things' shows malicious intent
>>> these people eventually jury a civil case and award BS damages in a case of legitimate self-defense but the victim did 'certain things'.

Of course, this fear and demonization of gun ownership is exactly what the antigunners want to accomplish. They do not want to reduce crime, they want to make owning and carrying a gun as legally dangerous as possible. Unfortunately this strategy works. We have to be cognizant of this and begin to work against it. I don't disagree with Masaad's teaching at all, I would just hope that he spends an equal amount of time teaching the "correct gun culture" we all need to have.

Regarding the LCI, my family and I, we will ALWAYS check the chamber. I'm not going to take some flip up tabs word for it. THAT's 'retarded'.

As far as the LC9 vs Glock26, I was looking for a very small 9mm. If you've got any suggestions of something similar to the LC9 in size/weight, does not have all the extra lawyer features, and that is on the CA Roster, then please share.

Anybody who relies on or even USES the LCI as any sort of safety device is NOT practicing proper gun safety. For crap's sake, just practice good trigger discipline, treat all guns as if they are loaded and keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. LCIs and safeties be damned.

And regarding the use of "retarded", yea the stigma against mental health does need to stop. I don't know how knowledgeable or caring any of you are about this issue, but there's been a serious stigma against people who seek help for their mental health in this country for a LONG time. Honestly, the stigma is RETARDED. I fully subscribe to calling things retarded sometimes and I call things gay when I'm hanging out with my gay brother, who in turn rags on people for being ***gots :)

My point is, do whatever you want, but please be aware of the unhealthy way our culture looks at things. Using those types of terms in general company isn't really cool, but meh, whatever.

pointedstick
03-12-2012, 4:28 PM
I guess I might have to just get something like a G26 that comes without all that extra stuff. Just was looking for something thinner than that, that was on the Roster.

Kahr CW9. On the roster, thinner than a Glock, mild recoil, no manual safety, mag disconnect, or loaded chamber indicator. I love love love mine!

CHS
03-12-2012, 4:29 PM
How about this:

S&W makes two versions of the M&P semi-auto's. One, which is not legal for general sale in CA (it's not on the roster) has NO magazine disconnect "safety" (I detest calling mag disconnects "safeties"). The other model, keeping in mind it's the EXACT SAME GUN otherwise, has a magazine disconnect.

So, what if you buy the CA model, and then modify it to remove the mag disconnect so that it is configured just like the 49-state model?

Where's the issue?

zum
03-12-2012, 4:35 PM
:beatdeadhorse5: i see a trend

search around and read only what you want and then do that.

seems to me you are fishing for the comforting opinion of others that supports what your looking to do anyways

stix213
03-12-2012, 4:43 PM
As far as the LC9 vs Glock26, I was looking for a very small 9mm. If you've got any suggestions of something similar to the LC9 in size/weight, does not have all the extra lawyer features, and that is on the CA Roster, then please share.

The Kel-Tec PF-9 sounds like exactly what you want, minus the roster. Plus its a few ounces lighter. I bought mine PPT BNIB off of the private party sales forum here. They come up fairly regularly.

rugershooter
03-12-2012, 5:57 PM
Way off topic people - plaxico is a moron. I will give thumbs up to free speech though.

To the OP I keep my glock in a serpa holster without a round in the chamber, my safety is the sound of chambering a round.

It also has a 3.5 lb lone wolf trigger connector and I would still have to be beyond reckless to discharge it unintentionally.

Is your Glock a carry gun?

BlindRacer
03-13-2012, 8:24 AM
Kahr CW9. On the roster, thinner than a Glock, mild recoil, no manual safety, mag disconnect, or loaded chamber indicator. I love love love mine!

I've looked for Kahr's a dozen times on the roster, and for some reason, have never seen them. I'll have to take another look. I've had an eye on the CW9 and/or PM9, but discounted them because I thought the weren't on it.

i see a trend

search around and read only what you want and then do that.

seems to me you are fishing for the comforting opinion of others that supports what your looking to do anyways

I am fishing for the comforting opinions, from those I trust on Calguns. Yes, I would 'like' to do what I said in the first post. That's why I asked. But I've understood the other side to it, so I wanted to ask, and get feedback from this crowd. If they said it was too risky (which the consensus seems to be) then I won't be doing it.

The Kel-Tec PF-9 sounds like exactly what you want, minus the roster. Plus its a few ounces lighter. I bought mine PPT BNIB off of the private party sales forum here. They come up fairly regularly.

I'll take a look at that. I've always just had a bad feeling with Kel-Tec's. I don't know why, or what it is. Maybe my mind could be changed.

But like you said, it's not on the roster. I guess I can look into other options to get the specific gun I want, if I'm going to go the non-roster route.


Thanks for all the replies. It's helped a lot.

BlindRacer
03-13-2012, 8:29 AM
The PM9 is on the roster, but the cheaper (more attainable?) CM9 is not.

Hmm, only playing to those who can afford a more expensive gun?

I really do like the PM9, but it's significantly more than a glock. Seems odd to me. Looking to stay in the sub $500 range, but I guess we'll see.

BlindRacer
03-13-2012, 9:04 AM
Well, the PM9 IS on the roster, and it looks like an awesome gun! It's basically everything I was looking for size/weight wise. Price however, is about double what I was wanting to spend.

If I end up wanting the PM9, it's going to have to wait a while I guess. Have too many other things that that much money needs to go to first.

I had actually never been into the for sale section here. Do used Kahr PM9's ever pop up? And about how much do they go for used?

Fufodog
03-13-2012, 4:01 PM
I've always just had a bad feeling with Kel-Tec's. I don't know why, or what it is. Maybe my mind could be changed.

For what it's worth, the April 2011 Gun-Tests magazine compared the Kel-Tec PF-9 to the Ruger LC9 and preferred the Kel-Tec:

"We came away from the tests really liking the Kel-Tec and not liking the Ruger nearly as much. If we had 50 rounds to shoot at a sitting, wed choose the Ruger, but for concealed carry and the few rounds one might shoot in a self-defense encounter, theres no question in our minds. Wed choose the Kel-Tec. We consider it an A-grade gun from every important standpoint: price, accuracy, reliability, light weight, slim, you name it. We think this is one mighty fine 9mm handgun, but it is not for the recoil-sensitive person."

scarville
03-13-2012, 5:18 PM
seems to me you are fishing for the comforting opinion of others that supports what your looking to do anyways
Bingo!

Andy Taylor
03-13-2012, 8:04 PM
Regarding the LCI, my family and I, we will ALWAYS check the chamber. I'm not going to take some flip up tabs word for it. THAT's 'retarded'.

As far as the LC9 vs Glock26, I was looking for a very small 9mm. If you've got any suggestions of something similar to the LC9 in size/weight, does not have all the extra lawyer features, and that is on the CA Roster, then please share.

Kahr P9 or PM9.

resident-shooter
03-13-2012, 9:09 PM
Drill the bore to shoot 12 ga buckshot. cant got wrong with them stopping powers

lowk_18
03-13-2012, 10:53 PM
Well, the PM9 IS on the roster, and it looks like an awesome gun! It's basically everything I was looking for size/weight wise. Price however, is about double what I was wanting to spend.

If I end up wanting the PM9, it's going to have to wait a while I guess. Have too many other things that that much money needs to go to first.

I had actually never been into the for sale section here. Do used Kahr PM9's ever pop up? And about how much do they go for used?

I got mine off of gunbroker and it's great. Never had any kind of problem with it but I don't shoot it all that much either. I didn't have to go through the 200 round break in period which was nice. However, I think I still ended up paying around $650 out the door after it was all said and done.

That being said, I think I would like to get another one and will probably try to buy one used again. I'll probably lurk the private sales here when I have the money until one pops up.

Feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

Andy Taylor
03-15-2012, 7:37 AM
Well, the PM9 IS on the roster, and it looks like an awesome gun! It's basically everything I was looking for size/weight wise. Price however, is about double what I was wanting to spend.

If I end up wanting the PM9, it's going to have to wait a while I guess. Have too many other things that that much money needs to go to first.

I had actually never been into the for sale section here. Do used Kahr PM9's ever pop up? And about how much do they go for used?

Look at the CW9. It is on roster. It is essentially a P9 without the dovetail front sight and less "fancy" roll marking (for lack of a better term) on the slide. It is also a little more than half the price of a P9/PM9.

postal
03-15-2012, 8:25 AM
Regarding your future possible LTC- I guess it depends primarily on the county you live in, and their rules as to carrying a modified gun. I would think a lot of counties frown upon this for CCW guns.

So, if you do change it, they dont like it for CCW, you'll need to bring it back to facotry standard, or buy a new gun.

Shenaniguns
03-15-2012, 8:44 AM
Most times, when folks get "trigger jobs" they result in the pistol being significantly less reliable. YMMV, but that's my experience.


I disagree! It's a case by case basis IMO/IME. You ever shoot with Doc Roberts? He's a strong supporter in Apex Tactical's DCAEK and RAM for the M&P which is approved for over a dozen agencies nationwide.

1911su16b870
03-15-2012, 9:37 AM
When you are involved in a self defense situation and force is used, it is not a cut and dry, 100% black and white situation...allegations will be flying around from all sides and a modified gun is just another thing that will muddy that situation up.

Sheepdog1968
03-15-2012, 11:21 AM
If you dont want safeties that you need to flip (a reasonable concer when stressed) in my opinion it would be better to buy a pisolt that doesnt have them (such as glock springfiled or sig) than to remove them from a different design). More importantly, i would reccomend you take many classes so that your muscle memory does the move without concious thought. For example, i am so used to using mossberg pumo shotguns that when i try a buddy's'semiauto, i will find my thumb moving to disengage a non-existant safey and i will fell my support arm trying to pump the foreend.

The Tiger
03-15-2012, 7:17 PM
Kahr CW9. On the roster, thinner than a Glock, mild recoil, no manual safety, mag disconnect, or loaded chamber indicator. I love love love mine!

+1 on the CW9

The trigger guard is small and tight. But not an issue as a defense gun. Put too many rounds through one in a session and my trigger finger was getting rubbed raw. But like I said, not an issue.

0.9 inch width.