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View Full Version : Long Guns Skipping 10 Day Wait?


ugimports
03-10-2012, 1:52 PM
I've had 2 customers recently surprised that a long gun requires a 10 day wait. They both told me that a bay area store has been releasing long guns on the same day they've gone in to do the purchase. I don't really care to name the store, but am wondering how this is possible?

They were both purchasing a modern shotgun (not C&R) and neither had a C&R license.

They were both fine once I told them what the law actually was and how I had no idea how the other store let them do this.

I asked the customer today (just 5 minutes ago) when he signed the 4473 and DROS he was signing at my shop to start the 10 day wait. He told me that he signed both docs at the store when he picked up his shotgun and at that particular store he was a "regular".

What's the secret sauce I'm missing?

GatorHunter
03-10-2012, 1:58 PM
It's up to you as a ffl really what you want to do I know when I was living in florida with my carry license I could take everything home same day.

LikeAllGuns
03-10-2012, 2:12 PM
Sound like that ffl was breaking the law..

LikeAllGuns
03-10-2012, 2:13 PM
It's up to you as a ffl really what you want to do I know when I was living in florida with my carry license I could take everything home same day.

Thats Florida.....not CA.....

GatorHunter
03-10-2012, 2:16 PM
Your right fl not ca. but the ffl in ca was breaking the law but in 10 days if they didn't kill anyone he would not be unless he has guilt. I would not let anyone cheat the cool down period.

fighterpilot562
03-10-2012, 2:20 PM
Those customers better be carful with that. Could be some type of sting or setup. and if not, they are clearly breaking the law. You should consider reporting it. Don't want guns falling into the wrong hands and end up having more gun laws because the dealer didn't do the 10 day waiting period.

Oneaudiopro
03-10-2012, 2:22 PM
Your right fl not ca. but the ffl in ca was breaking the law but in 10 days if they didn't kill anyone he would not be unless he has guilt. I would not let anyone cheat the cool down period.

The 10 day wait is the least thought out, most annoying piece of garbage legislation I have ever dealt with. What about the 10 other guns the buyer has at home?? Dee Dee Dee..........someone needs to use a little common sense before they start passing useless laws and inconviencing law abiding citizens. Ok...........i'm done.

greybeard
03-10-2012, 2:29 PM
Could be they just added another long gun on an existing DROS. I have seen that happen. Customer comes in on the 10 day to pick up the gun and see another one he wants, gets added to the existing DROS

ugimports
03-10-2012, 2:35 PM
Could be they just added another long gun on an existing DROS. I have seen that happen. Customer comes in on the 10 day to pick up the gun and see another one he wants, gets added to the existing DROS

The scenario he explained was that this was the first long gun he purchased from the store and that one of the store owners told him long guns don't have a 10 day wait.. The only reason I believe it was an owner is that he told me the name of the person.

Here's me theory of what happened:
1) owner of store knows the guy and so ran his DROS with information on file from last transaction (assuming address and everything was all up-to-date)
2) when buyer comes in the 4473 and DROS are all pre-filled out and he asks the buyer sign here, here, and here, date this 10 days ago, date this today, can I get your thumbprint here, etc...

So the "cooling" off period already occurred, but I would assume if DOJ audited during that time period they would ask how the DROS was started without the customer's signature or thumbprint..

Although, maybe there's some obscure PC I'm missing as well..

kemasa
03-10-2012, 2:46 PM
There is nothing that I am aware of. Even C&R firearms through a dealer for a customer w/o a C&R FFL and COE have the wait, including some antique firearms made before 1899 (no, I am not kidding).

PWPSK1
03-10-2012, 10:58 PM
I've had 2 customers recently surprised that a long gun requires a 10 day wait. They both told me that a bay area store has been releasing long guns on the same day they've gone in to do the purchase. I don't really care to name the store, but am wondering how this is possible?

They were both purchasing a modern shotgun (not C&R) and neither had a C&R license.

They were both fine once I told them what the law actually was and how I had no idea how the other store let them do this.

I asked the customer today (just 5 minutes ago) when he signed the 4473 and DROS he was signing at my shop to start the 10 day wait. He told me that he signed both docs at the store when he picked up his shotgun and at that particular store he was a "regular".

What's the secret sauce I'm missing?

I've had people who've moved in from out of state be surprised that there is a wait, but never someone who's bought a gun before in California. To volunteer the fact that someone is breaking the law for them seems rather odd to say the least.

Santa Cruz Armory
03-10-2012, 11:11 PM
The scenario he explained was that this was the first long gun he purchased from the store and that one of the store owners told him long guns don't have a 10 day wait.. The only reason I believe it was an owner is that he told me the name of the person.

Here's me theory of what happened:
1) owner of store knows the guy and so ran his DROS with information on file from last transaction (assuming address and everything was all up-to-date)
2) when buyer comes in the 4473 and DROS are all pre-filled out and he asks the buyer sign here, here, and here, date this 10 days ago, date this today, can I get your thumbprint here, etc...

So the "cooling" off period already occurred, but I would assume if DOJ audited during that time period they would ask how the DROS was started without the customer's signature or thumbprint..

Although, maybe there's some obscure PC I'm missing as well..


Just plain stupid!

Is a 10 day wait really worth the drama that can be caused by doing this??

:facepalm:

Do we know what town this FFL is in?

halifax
03-10-2012, 11:24 PM
Can't think of any reasonable explanation for this. That dealer is either really, really stupid or has very large cojones.

Rigmarole
03-11-2012, 12:51 AM
Those customers better be carful with that. Could be some type of sting or setup. and if not, they are clearly breaking the law. You should consider reporting it. Don't want guns falling into the wrong hands and end up having more gun laws because the dealer didn't do the 10 day waiting period.

Even the the CA background check is based on the NICS system which is an instant check. The govt knows right away whether the buyer is a go/no go. The waiting period is just a BS "cooling off" period that only punishes law-abiding citizens.

I am not suggesting that the dealer in question should break the rules, but lets not kid ourselves in thinking that the waiting period actually prevents guns from getting into the "wrong hands".

Santa Cruz Armory
03-11-2012, 1:05 AM
If the OP wants to disclose what shop it is, I'll take a PM. I wonder if it's an employee that's doing it? if so the owner should definitely know. His/ her license could be in jeopardy. Possibly even fine or jail time.

EOD Guy
03-11-2012, 7:57 AM
There is nothing that I am aware of. Even C&R firearms through a dealer for a customer w/o a C&R FFL and COE have the wait, including some antique firearms made before 1899 (no, I am not kidding).

OK, I'll bite. What antique firearms?

kemasa
03-11-2012, 9:11 AM
One that takes a .44 Russian, since that is still made by a commercial company.

While there are three different definitions of what an antique firearm is, based on the CA PC section, the CA DOJ does not actually have this view. This means that if you get a firearm in which is actually an antique and the FFL sending it used the CFLC system, but the DOJ claims that the DROS has to be submitted, you had best submit it due to all the paperwork.

halifax
03-11-2012, 9:26 AM
I've had people who've moved in from out of state be surprised that there is a wait, but never someone who's bought a gun before in California. To volunteer the fact that someone is breaking the law for them seems rather odd to say the least.

I don't have that much of a hard time believing that a layperson would blab about it. The customer is only relating what another dealer did and can't understand why the current dealer can't do the same. It's not like the customer knows the law and really understands how this was so wrong.

"...but, but, my last ffl accepted my passport as the secondary Proof of Residency! Why won't you?"

In fact, methinks the blabbing will be that other dealer's downfall. Maybe we should just let this thread die.

Peter.Steele
03-11-2012, 10:51 AM
OK, I'll bite. What antique firearms?



Trapdoor Springfield, for instance, or very early Mosin-Nagants. .45-70 and 7.62x54R are both still commercially available.

Direct Action Solutions
03-11-2012, 1:13 PM
We had a customer beg us to release his gun early, just to have the DOJ call a few hours later to inform us of a delay on his background check.

Don't do it!

kemasa
03-11-2012, 1:18 PM
My response would be that I would be willing to talk about it if the person gives me $1 million cash, upfront. Then I will say that I am not going to break the law for someone especially when I get nothing out of it except troubles.

dirtyJ
03-11-2012, 6:35 PM
I bet I know which shop this is, one of two in my mind, and it's not surprising that they're doing it. Nothing's changed, they're just shady when it comes to their friends.

Seesm
03-11-2012, 8:33 PM
Sounds nutty 3 mistakes and they are out fo business as a FFL I call B.S. pm me the name and I will personally call the owner...

EOD Guy
03-12-2012, 7:40 AM
Trapdoor Springfield, for instance, or very early Mosin-Nagants. .45-70 and 7.62x54R are both still commercially available.

The commercially available ammunition part of the definition only applies to reproductions of antique firearms, not originals, except for those regulated by the NFA. I have 3 trapdoor Springfields, one original and 2 reproductions. The original is an antique under the law. One of the reproductions is C&R and the other fully regulated.

halifax
03-12-2012, 8:01 AM
The commercially available ammunition part of the definition only applies to reproductions of antique firearms, not originals, except for those regulated by the NFA. I have 3 trapdoor Springfields, one original and 2 reproductions. The original is an antique under the law. One of the reproductions is C&R and the other fully regulated.

Yep, looks like it:

From 18 U.S.c. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means –



…(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which
is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not
readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

ugimports
03-12-2012, 8:18 AM
Sounds nutty 3 mistakes and they are out fo business as a FFL I call B.S. pm me the name and I will personally call the owner...

I'm not here to "fix" anything. Merely clear up my understanding in case I missed how I could be doing something quicker/better.

In any case, I believe that if they continue to do this one day they may get busted and then they'll have to 'splain themselves. I've no interest in turning anyone in especially since I did not witness this with my own eyes. Heck, my customer could have just been pulling my leg too to see if I'd bite!

Munk
03-12-2012, 10:14 AM
Heck, my customer could have just been pulling my leg too to see if I'd bite!

It's more likely than you think.

kemasa
03-12-2012, 4:51 PM
The commercially available ammunition part of the definition only applies to reproductions of antique firearms, not originals, except for those regulated by the NFA.

Go convince the CA DOJ about that. I agree with you, but the CA DOJ says otherwise.