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The4ork
03-10-2012, 8:17 AM
My wife is attending the P.O.S.T academy to start a career in law enforcement and has informed me that we are committing a felony in our household.

I keep my Taurus PT111 in the case it was purchased in, without a lock on the case or any locks on the firearm itself. I also keep one magazine loaded with 5 rounds of defense ammunition. I do this in case I need to defend my home. We keep my handgun upstairs in a discrete location that's easily accessible, and hers the same, downstairs, also loaded with 5 rounds of defense ammunition, but hers is in the original glock case with a fast combo word lock.

she informs me that 1. its illegal to keep your ammunition with the firearm, and 2. that they must either have a lock on the case, or a firearm installed lock.

it was my understanding that you only have to do this if you have children under the age of 18 in the household. since we do not have any children we should be in the green.

after looking at the cal law website http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/tips

i have found its only a felony/mistemener when it mentions children under 18. otherwise it says "Guns and ammunition should be stored separately." as if its a recommendation but not a hard law

incredablehefey
03-10-2012, 8:20 AM
your legal as my understanding goes, no kids no lock

SanPedroShooter
03-10-2012, 8:22 AM
You dont need a lock even with kids. There is some criminal liabilty if they are misued by minors, provided they are not stolen etc...

Is this how police FUD starts, in the classroom? She must have heard wrong.

Intimid8tor
03-10-2012, 8:24 AM
Is this how police FUD starts, in the classroom? She must have heard wrong.

Just like our kids going to public school. Hopefully she heard wrong.

And to the OP, why only 5 rounds?

Fjold
03-10-2012, 8:24 AM
It's a shame that your wife is being taught FUD at the P.O.S.T. academy

Baconator
03-10-2012, 8:25 AM
Help her study, ask her to cite the PC she is referring to.

bubbapug1
03-10-2012, 8:26 AM
I don't know if its legal or not, but to keep a gun in a house without a safe is an invitation to trouble. We see many threads here where members get guns stolen, and almost in every case, they weren't in a safe.

How hard and expensive would it be to put it in a safe? Even a small safe??

SanPedroShooter
03-10-2012, 8:26 AM
I keep a loaded and unlocked G19 (it lives in a holster) with a standard cap map ready and unlocked when I am home. When the baby comes, I will get a bio safe, but I dont have to.

I think the problem is, the police/government turns these common sense concepts (although keeping a defensive hand gun unloaded and locked is certianly not 'common sense' or Constitutional if mandated, see Heller) into imaginary laws. Similar to my experiance with police saying things like, 'you cant have a gun in the car', or 'ammo cant be in the same case as locked pistol'. Its wishful thinking on the part of gun grabbers, turned into defacto legal advice. Untill you look at the penal code, then it kind of falls apart.....

littlejake
03-10-2012, 8:26 AM
832 PC POST training FUD. They teach their interpretation of the Penal code with no regard for case law. It's why we have so many uninformed LEOs.

You are responsible for keeping your arms out of the hands of minors. Locked cases are a good idea. it's up to you how you comply with the requirement to keep guns out of the hands of children.

Even when transporting in a locked box, you may place loaded mags in the box as long as they are not in the magazine well. Appellate Case People v Clark.

GaryV
03-10-2012, 8:27 AM
You're fine. If you read it carefully, you'll see that you'd be fine even if you had kids. You would only be guilty of a crime if you stored them like this and a kid got it and used it. Unless a minor actually takes the gun and shoots someone/something with it or carries it into a public place, you're not guilty of anything.

Also direct her to the Heller ruling, where "safe storage" requirements such as keeping a gun locked up or otherwise in a condition so that it is not immediately useable were ruled unconstitutional.

ivanimal
03-10-2012, 8:28 AM
Not illegal, It is your right to have them as you do.

The4ork
03-10-2012, 8:40 AM
what is FUD?

i only keep 5 rounds in there to prevent the spring being bound for long periods and i figure i can get the job done with only 1 so i have 5x's as much as i need. unless theirs multiples but then likelihood factor just exponentially increased

id like to find the penal code so maybe she can bring it up

CSACANNONEER
03-10-2012, 8:42 AM
This seems to be a problem with some POST instructors and their absolute lack of understanding gun laws. How and why they don't seem to learn and teach the real laws yet they keep their jobs is beyond me. It does go to show why some LEOs seem to believe in and try to enforce unwritten laws. It's a shame that our future LEOs don't get better training. There is NO legal requirement to keep any firearm locked up at your residence. This is true whether or mot minors are present. Now, if a minor has access to an unsecured firearm and uses said firearm to commit a crime, the owner can be guilty of a seperate crime. But, the mere fact that minors are present and a firearm in not secured is not a crime!

r3dn3ck
03-10-2012, 8:43 AM
fear uncertainty doubt = fud. Spreading it is as bad as spreading aids because it's spreading stupidity bought with ignorance.

Baconator
03-10-2012, 8:45 AM
what is FUD?

i only keep 5 rounds in there to prevent the spring being bound for long periods and i figure i can get the job done with only 1 so i have 5x's as much as i need. unless theirs multiples but then likelihood factor just exponentially increased

id like to find the penal code so maybe she can bring it up

FUD=Fear Uncertainty and Doubt, it is the standard reply when false information is given here.

Keeping 5 bullets in the magazine is not going to improve your spring life. Springs are like paperclips, they don't lose anything from being bound versus being repeatedly bound and unbound. I don't mean to be disrespectful but have you ever had to shoot someone? 1 bullet doesn't always do the job and even 5 hits doesn't necessarily stop someone. And as you said, if there are more than 1 intruders in your home you are risking not having what you need to protect your home.

SanPedroShooter
03-10-2012, 8:45 AM
fear uncertainty doubt = fud. Spreading it is as bad as spreading aids because it's spreading stupidity bought with ignorance.

Kinda like the idea that a loaded magazine will wear out the spring....

CSACANNONEER
03-10-2012, 8:46 AM
what is FUD?

i only keep 5 rounds in there to prevent the spring being bound for long periods and i figure i can get the job done with only 1 so i have 5x's as much as i need. unless theirs multiples but then likelihood factor just exponentially increased

id like to find the penal code so maybe she can bring it up

FUD= fear, uncertainty, doubt

You might want to speak with a metalurgist. Springs do not bind or wear out from prolonged compression. They were out from repeated use. So,only having 5 rounds in a mag is not doing anything good or bad to the spring. However, it is handicapping your ability to protect yourself and your family.


As far as PC goes, the law does not generally say what is legal. It normally states what is illega;. So, ask your wife to provide PC backing up her claim. Then, enjoy your night on the couch for questioning her knowledge in the first place.

Hilldweller
03-10-2012, 8:53 AM
Be interesting to hear the instructors response when (if) she brings up the info stated in the replies here.

Help her study, ask her to cite the PC she is referring to.

Better yet, have the instructor read the code to the class for clarification. Perhaps he/she can learn at the same time.

PS - I keep all my guns (what I have left) locked securely in a safe, with the ammo locked in yet another safe. Can't be too careful. If someone breaks in I plan on asking them to please give me a few minutes alone in the "other room" while I prepare to confront them. :rolleyes:

SilverTauron
03-10-2012, 8:55 AM
Cases like this are why I cannot help but laugh whenever the talking heads point out that Law Enforcement & military should be the only armed individuals in society on the basis of "training". It is my experience that the most unsafe & uninformed people I have witnessed handle firearms are government employees, and the OP is a great example as to why.

As gun owners not knowing the law can result in an unplanned vacation to a state owned walled resort, which presents a greater motivation to know the statues than law enforcement officers who won't be punished in the event of a legal misunderstanding.

littlejake
03-10-2012, 9:02 AM
PS - I keep all my guns (what I have left) locked securely in a safe, with the ammo locked in yet another safe. Can't be too careful. If someone breaks in I plan on asking them to please give me a few minutes alone in the "other room" while I prepare to confront them. :rolleyes:

I keep mine in a safe also. I also have a security system and video monitoring. It's not that I am required to do that; it's because I don't want to lose them in the event of a break in.

And, the wife doesn't want them lying around. (I tried to trade her in for a newer model; but the newer model wasn't on the roster.) :rofl2:

killmime1234
03-10-2012, 9:04 AM
Hopefully your wife can incite a discussion about the topic in her class that will enlighten the rest of them.

Also, just some personal advice to the OP: I don't believe anyone's ever been prosecuted for what they've posted on Calguns, but there's a first time for everything; You might consider "Is what my friend's doing illegal?"

FastFinger
03-10-2012, 9:06 AM
Next weeks lesson: Laws regarding driving while barefoot; misdemeanor or felony?

trew10
03-10-2012, 9:13 AM
I don't know if its legal or not, but to keep a gun in a house without a safe is an invitation to trouble. We see many threads here where members get guns stolen, and almost in every case, they weren't in a safe.

How hard and expensive would it be to put it in a safe? Even a small safe??
does this make any sense? these guns are bought to protect the house but the gun is being stolen from the house it was intended to protect???:)

CSACANNONEER
03-10-2012, 9:18 AM
Next weeks lesson: Laws regarding driving while barefoot; misdemeanor or felony?

What about driving while bareback?

SanPedroShooter
03-10-2012, 9:19 AM
Is that any different that someone stealing a car that I intended to drive? You cant legislate common sense, even if California passes a thousand new law a year, which they do. I lock my guns up when appropriate, which means when they are out of my control.

Honestly, if I had my permit, the gun would stay on me when I left the house. One less gun to steal or for a kid to get his hands on.... LTC's they're for the children.

SanPedroShooter
03-10-2012, 9:21 AM
What about driving while bareback?

When I was kid in Kirkland Washington, I saw a woman driving a two wheel drive Toyota truck completely nude. No lie.

geeknow
03-10-2012, 9:28 AM
I propose the OP change the thread title to reflect the important topic raised by SanPedroShooter above. As always, pics are needed to fully understand the many nuances. Lol!

Yugo
03-10-2012, 9:34 AM
what is FUD?

i only keep 5 rounds in there to prevent the spring being bound for long periods and i figure i can get the job done with only 1 so i have 5x's as much as i need. unless theirs multiples but then likelihood factor just exponentially increased

id like to find the penal code so maybe she can bring it up

FUD=Fear Uncertainty and Doubt, it is the standard reply when false information is given here.

Keeping 5 bullets in the magazine is not going to improve your spring life. Springs are like paperclips, they don't lose anything from being bound versus being repeatedly bound and unbound. I don't mean to be disrespectful but have you ever had to shoot someone? 1 bullet doesn't always do the job and even 5 hits doesn't necessarily stop someone. And as you said, if there are more than 1 intruders in your home you are risking not having what you need to protect your home.

Beat me to it. Some people just dont know about springs but now they do :)
What about driving while bareback?

as long as you dont have leather seats in the summer!

SanPedroShooter
03-10-2012, 9:36 AM
Dude I wish! Kirkland is just across Lake Washington from Seattle and has some odd hippie type people. She was hot too, or at least young from what I recall, it was fifteen years ago...

I was riding my skateboard in front of the library, and I was up on the second step of a kind of concrete stairway with broad landings next to the road. There was a crosswalk, and she slowed down and I could see right into the cab from my slightly raised perspective. What a day that was!

Californio
03-10-2012, 9:38 AM
Driving up CA Highway 33 when I was a kid in a Scout, the driver almost went off the road when this hippie girl sitting high up in a VW Microbus came around the corner topless. It was a site for a couple of teenage boys:)


When I was kid in Kirkland Washington, I saw a woman driving a two wheel drive Toyota truck completely nude. No lie.

Librarian
03-10-2012, 9:39 AM
The Penal Code in question is PC 25100: CHAPTER 2. Criminal Storage of Firearm [25100. - 25130.]

25100.
(a) Except as provided in Section 25105, a person commits the crime of “criminal storage of a firearm of the first degree” if all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(1) The person keeps any loaded firearm within any premises that are under the person’s custody or control.

(2) The person knows or reasonably should know that a child is likely to gain access to the firearm without the permission of the child’s parent or legal guardian.

(3) The child obtains access to the firearm and thereby causes death or great bodily injury to the child or any other person.


(b) Except as provided in Section 25105, a person commits the crime of “criminal storage of a firearm of the second degree” if all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(1) The person keeps any loaded firearm within any premises that are under the person’s custody or control.

(2) The person knows or reasonably should know that a child is likely to gain access to the firearm without the permission of the child’s parent or legal guardian.

(3) The child obtains access to the firearm and thereby causes injury, other than great bodily injury, to the child or any other person, or carries the firearm either to a public place or in violation of Section 417.

CHAPTER 2. Criminal Storage of Firearm [25100. - 25130.]

25105.
Section 25100 does not apply whenever any of the following occurs:

(a) The child obtains the firearm as a result of an illegal entry to any premises by any person.

(b) The firearm is kept in a locked container or in a location that a reasonable person would believe to be secure.

(c) The firearm is carried on the person or within close enough proximity thereto that the individual can readily retrieve and use the firearm as if carried on the person.

(d) The firearm is locked with a locking device, as defined in Section 16860, which has rendered the firearm inoperable.

(e) The person is a peace officer or a member of the Armed Forces or the National Guard and the child obtains the firearm during, or incidental to, the performance of the person’s duties.

(f) The child obtains, or obtains and discharges, the firearm in a lawful act of self-defense or defense of another person.

(g) The person who keeps a loaded firearm on premises that are under the person’s custody or control has no reasonable expectation, based on objective facts and circumstances, that a child is likely to be present on the premises.

25110.
(a) Criminal storage of a firearm in the first degree is punishable by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for 16 months, or two or three years, by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine; or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

(b) Criminal storage of a firearm in the second degree is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

cacop
03-10-2012, 9:41 AM
To be honest I think she may have misunderstood something the academy may have been stressing for their needs.

At the academy recruits walk around with uloaded guns in their hips. The academy might be trying to prevent a recruit from bringing loaded weapon into an area where loaded weapons aren't supposed to be. At the range they all but frisk you when leaving to keep recruits from waling into defensive tactics with live ammo. Many instructors do not carry weapons unless they are brought in off the streets to teach.

There are at least a few training accidents every year across the country. Mostly from live ammo being brought in. It is very important for an academy to establish strong safety protocols with weapons and ammo.

I would also like to know what learning domain (LD) this was taught under. If his was the LD for weapons laws then the instructor is not reading the POST mandated materials. If it happened under the defensive tactics or firearms LDs I could see it being a misunderstanding of the recruit.

I don't want to trash talk the OP's wife but academy recruits get a lot of info thrown at them in a short period of time, often with little sleep, and sometimes they learn the wrong thing when taught the right thing.

CRACKERJACK
03-10-2012, 9:54 AM
PS - I keep all my guns (what I have left) locked securely in a safe, with the ammo locked in yet another safe. Can't be too careful. If someone breaks in I plan on asking them to please give me a few minutes alone in the "other room" while I prepare to confront them.
(Quoting for greatness.)

I wish we had more responsible citizens like you. I usually like to take my attacker out for a bite to eat before the onslaught. Don't want to go in on an empty stomach.

Next weeks lesson: Laws regarding driving while barefoot; misdemeanor or felony?
It's a common misconception that it's a crime on the state level. It's actually a fed law that says you can't. I know this. A LEO told me. :shifty:

TKM
03-10-2012, 10:08 AM
What about driving while bareback?

I bought my car in January.

At the time a black leather interior didn't seem like a bad idea.

It's 73 degrees outside right now. Maybe 95 in the car.

scarville
03-10-2012, 10:09 AM
You might want to speak with a metalurgist. Springs do not bind or wear out from prolonged compression. They were out from repeated use. So,only having 5 rounds in a mag is not doing anything good or bad to the spring. However, it is handicapping your ability to protect yourself and your family.
It has been a long while but what I remember from designing springs...

Assuming the spring is well designed, it will not wear out or take a set from long term compression alone. Also, repeated loading and unloading alone will not wear it out in less than several million cycles. OTOH, most of the magazine springs I've seen appear to be made a made from a music wire. That is a high carbon steel susceptible to intergranular stress corrosion which will reduce the life expectancy to well below the limit failure analysis alone predicts.

Keeping a spring compressed will shorten its life just from atmospheric oxygen and water vapor, However, it should still be useful years later. Keep it away from salt water and don't use lubricants that contain any chlorides and you will be fine.

huntercf
03-10-2012, 10:47 AM
I think if your wife was going through the POST academy and she was committing a felony then she wouldn't be attending for very long.

JeepsRcool
03-10-2012, 10:51 AM
It is perfectly legal to have a loaded gun anywhere in your home.

motorhead
03-10-2012, 11:01 AM
she'll make a great cop. she's already learning to give out bogus info under color of authority. maybe her class needs a lecture from CGF.

motorhead
03-10-2012, 11:04 AM
i keep a loaded firearm in every room except the kitchen and bathroom(moisture). no locks or cases.

Tarn_Helm
03-10-2012, 11:04 AM
My wife is attending the P.O.S.T academy to start a career in law enforcement and has informed me that we are committing a felony in our household.

I keep my Taurus PT111 in the case it was purchased in, without a lock on the case or any locks on the firearm itself. I also keep one magazine loaded with 5 rounds of defense ammunition. I do this in case I need to defend my home. We keep my handgun upstairs in a discrete location that's easily accessible, and hers the same, downstairs, also loaded with 5 rounds of defense ammunition, but hers is in the original glock case with a fast combo word lock.

she informs me that 1. its illegal to keep your ammunition with the firearm, and 2. that they must either have a lock on the case, or a firearm installed lock.

it was my understanding that you only have to do this if you have children under the age of 18 in the household. since we do not have any children we should be in the green.

after looking at the cal law website http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/tips

i have found its only a felony/mistemener when it mentions children under 18. otherwise it says "Guns and ammunition should be stored separately." as if its a recommendation but not a hard law

If it were illegal, asking this question on the internet would be a mistake, wouldn't it (since you would be confessing to a crime in an open, public forum where all kinds of folks lurk)?

6wXkI4t7nuc

If I were you, I would seek answers to questions of this sort from books:

http://www.gunlawpress.com/
http://firearmslaw.com/index.html
http://pointedin.com/the-california-firearm-knife-and-weapon-law-compendium-california-gun-law-california-knife-law-self-defense-in-california-concealed-carry-in-california/
http://www.gunlawguide.com/

Only afterward, if still confused, would I seek answers from individuals.

And then I would avail myself of the "PM" (private message) or email function here on the site to ask the question discreetly of a person who seems relatively well-informed.

(FYI: LEOs often do not know the law.)

But that's just me.
:facepalm:

Note:

discreet (adjective): having or showing discernment or good judgment in conduct and especially in speech : prudent; especially : capable of preserving prudent silence

gunsmith
03-10-2012, 11:14 AM
A San Francisco cop once told me "cops don't know law, if they did they would be called lawyers and be paid better"

gunsmith
03-10-2012, 11:16 AM
please have your wife and her instructor visit here and logically prove they are correct

Irish Gunner
03-10-2012, 11:31 AM
I wear my 9mm on my hip when at home, keep it next to my bed at night and always with 2 magazines of +P JHP (one in mag well, second nearby). Unfortunately I do need to lock it up or store it out of site when I step out, since CA won't recognize my right to SD once I leave my property.

Unfortunately the OP just points out why LEO's don't correctly understand the laws. They aren't meant to interpret case law, but they should endevour to enforce the ACTUAL laws that are on the books.

The4ork
03-10-2012, 10:40 PM
there are seriously some characters on this website.

Texas Boy
03-10-2012, 11:06 PM
there are seriously some characters on this website.

Welcome to Calguns! Lots of good info here in the Wiki, Flow charts, stickies, and various threads. And yes, plenty of color. Enjoy!

ColdDeadHands1
03-10-2012, 11:22 PM
Hey 4ork! Go load your magazine all the way up! You are nuts for keeping a half loaded gun. Being loaded or not has no impact on your magazine springs whatsoever!:facepalm:

gl0ckc0ma
03-10-2012, 11:22 PM
I thought FUD=F**ked Up Disinformation.

I think this would apply better in this thread

Quiet
03-11-2012, 3:17 AM
Which LE academy is it?

glock21fan
03-11-2012, 3:20 AM
You can walk around in your home with it loaded up to your property line

CavTrooper
03-11-2012, 4:19 AM
Hey 4ork! Go load your magazine all the way up! You are nuts for keeping a half loaded gun. Being loaded or not has no impact on your magazine springs whatsoever!:facepalm:

5 rounds= 1/3 loaded for a fair percentage of modern pistols. ;)

HowardW56
03-11-2012, 7:33 AM
You can walk around in your home with it loaded up to your property line

Not exactly...

Steve1968LS2
03-11-2012, 8:10 AM
what is FUD?

i only keep 5 rounds in there to prevent the spring being bound for long periods and i figure i can get the job done with only 1 so i have 5x's as much as i need. unless theirs multiples but then likelihood factor just exponentially increased

id like to find the penal code so maybe she can bring it up

Well.. the FUD begins with thinking that you can't legally have a loaded and unlocked gun in you own home. That's so wrong it actually hurts my head thinking about it.

The next FUD is that only having 5 rounds in your gun is better for the spring.. springs don't wear by being compressed.. they wear from being compressed and expanded over and over. In other words the spring doesn't care if it's completely compressed or completely relaxed. Carrying only 5 rounds in your mag does absolutly nothing except give you less rounds to defend yourself against one (or more) druged up intruders.

It's a shame they teach flawled law at the POST school.. :(

Steve1968LS2
03-11-2012, 8:13 AM
I should add that while you can legally have loaded guns laying all over your house, you are liable if they are misused, especially by any children.

BigDogatPlay
03-11-2012, 8:14 AM
There is some criminal liabilty if they are misued by minors, provided they are not stolen etc...

Correct. You can hang them on the wall, loaded, if you want. Kids or no kids. The safe storage laws kick in when someone unauthorized accesses the gun and hurts or kills someone with it.

Is this how police FUD starts, in the classroom? She must have heard wrong.

Doctrine in the academy has long been when you come home, unload, secure in a locked container, with ammo separate. CADoJ recommends similar for law abiding citizens who choose to own firearms. So does NRA. It's about safety.

The OPs wife heard what ever she heard and when she told the OP it came out the way she said it. And that's pretty much exactly how FUD is born, IMO.

Antheia
03-11-2012, 8:42 AM
I just recently took the handgun safety test. All of which were common sense and I am certain it would not have anything in the practice book that would contradict the penal code. Below is a copy of the California Handgun Safety booklet which helped me better understand handgun safety and the laws. If you look on page 40 of this booklet, you will see the "Criminal Storage" laws for first and second degree. In this booklet it tells us it is our responsibility to keep the gun safe and out of the reach of children. If at any time a child gets a hold of the gun, we should have safety features on it to prevent the firearm from discharging any rounds. Having the ammunition separate from the firearm itself is only a suggestion for added safety, however there is no law that I know of that indicates we are mandated to have the firearm and ammunition stored separately.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf (http://http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf)
I hope this helps and good luck!

Irish Gunner
03-11-2012, 10:53 AM
At the end of the day, you need to decide what purpose your gun serves. If you use it ONLY for competition or target shooting keep it locked up and safely stored when not in use.

On the other hand if you plan to have it available for self-defense, make sure you are mentally prepared to take someone else's life in defense of your own. If not stop now and lock up your gun. If you are, your weapon needs to be maintained and ready for use (if not on you, near you) and loaded with enough ammo to do the job. (If it is on your hip then it is presumably under your control and no storage issue exists.) This includes enough range and practice time so that your actions are second nature in the high stress situation.

As for how much ammo to have in your magazine. It is better to have too much and not need it, than need it and not have enough.

vincewarde
03-11-2012, 11:13 AM
As others have amply proven, her instructor is misstating CA law, but wait there's MORE!

This was one of the critical issues settled in Heller. Washington DC actually had a law that required unloaded storage and the Supreme Court ruled that it violated the Second Amendment and STRUCK IT DOWN.

Any instructor who teaches stuff that is flat out wrong - as this is - deserves to be fired!

spgripside
03-11-2012, 11:52 AM
I thought FUD=F**ked Up Disinformation.

I think this would apply better in this thread

And probably most threads in this forum. I still think it makes more sense than fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Librarian
03-11-2012, 12:27 PM
I thought FUD=F**ked Up Disinformation.

I think this would apply better in this thread

You at least have the idea that 'FUD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt)' has the element that it it is intentional.

Some people mistakenly apply 'FUD' to places where the source is simply wrong.

paul0660
03-11-2012, 12:41 PM
id like to find the penal code so maybe she can bring it up

Cannot find what does not exist.

Sounds like she will be a heck of a cop.

BigDogatPlay
03-11-2012, 2:23 PM
As others have amply proven, her instructor is misstating CA law, but wait there's MORE!

No, she is misstating CA law. Neither the OP nor us know exactly what the instructor said. You're assuming fact not in evidence.

Any instructor who teaches stuff that is flat out wrong - as this is - deserves to be fired!

Refer back to my earlier post.... training doctrine has been for years that when an officer comes home the best solution for storing their firearms is to unload and secure. Even the NRA recommends storing ammo separately from firearms, and securing the firearm unloaded when not in use. Instructors, and I am one, have to teach the material. If we put our personal spin on it, that would be bad. But if the student misinterprets what was said and infers force of law, that is another matter entirely.

The key word is recommendation that firearms be stored secure, unloaded and with ammo separate.. I'm sure the OP will be mentioning this thread to his bride and she'll be clearer on the concept.

SilverTauron
03-11-2012, 3:40 PM
Refer back to my earlier post.... training doctrine has been for years that when an officer comes home the best solution for storing their firearms is to unload and secure. Even the NRA recommends storing ammo separately from firearms, and securing the firearm unloaded when not in use. Instructors, and I am one, have to teach the material. If we put our personal spin on it, that would be bad. But if the student misinterprets what was said and infers force of law, that is another matter entirely.

Why is this "recommendation" being advanced as proper firearm technique?

I ask because the most secure location any gun can be is on the owners hip .My loaded carry weapon is much harder to steal off my hip than it is locked in a case. Kids cannot tamper with a gun in the adult's control, and a crook will have a painful go of attempting to rob an armed and aware man of his own loaded firearm.

I realize for those of us with multiple weapons its simply not practical to strap on one's entire gun collection when moving about the home, but in a situation like a new Law Enforcement trainee who owns only their first time issue weapon they are better off carrying it.

Even high dollar bolted down gunsafes can be ripped out of the floors they are secured to, and as to the subject of kids it bears mentioning that during my childhood I took too much joy in illicitly playing a PS2 game system that my Mom thought was well hidden during my periods of being grounded. Despite changing the location of the device for each grounding episode , I made sure to note it , hook up, play , & return the Sony system to the hiding spot 30 minutes before she nominally arrived home from work. Being a nosy youngin' that I was, I'm confident in stating that had my mom had a gun id have found it too.

It is unfortunate that people would rather listen to a politically correct saying devoid of foundation versus taking action based on the logical course of action.

paul0660
03-11-2012, 3:49 PM
the best solution for storing their firearms is to unload and secure. Even the NRA recommends storing ammo separately from firearms,

That has nothing to do with the OP using the words "illegal" and "felony" twice and "mistemener" once (we know what he means).

I follow the NRA recommendation, and not because they said it. It just makes sense.

Doesn't POST follow along in the PC when the instructor says stuff?

cacop
03-11-2012, 7:04 PM
That has nothing to do with the OP using the words "illegal" and "felony" twice and "mistemener" once (we know what he means).

I follow the NRA recommendation, and not because they said it. It just makes sense.

Doesn't POST follow along in the PC when the instructor says stuff?

At the beginning of the academy they hand out all the reading materials for the academy. The majority of instruction is in Learning Domains or LDs for short. There are 42 of them the last time I checked. They each cover a particular section of the law or skills. For example the first LD in the Academy was LD 39, Introduction to the Criminal Justice System. Since they provide you with the materials when you start the academy you crack open the proper LD and read along as the instructor teaches. The instructor will generally follow along with the learnng domain structure for the class handout. Sometimes they will bring their own. They also review the test prior to the class to make sure they cover what is on the test. Students are instructed by their head instructor to remind the instructor teaching the current LD to speak up if the instructor forgets something or even gets it wrong.

It's been a long time since the academy but weapons laws were all in the same LD. Everything from baseball bats to machine guns were covered. It was actually one of the more difficult LDs in the academy. And this was in 1997, can you imagine what it must be like now? There is a separate LD for shooting firearms.

It is an incredibly structured system to teach recruits in the academy. Every single academy in the state must teach all of the learning domains. They must teach it the same way.

That is why I think it isn't the instructor but the student.

Seesm
03-11-2012, 7:08 PM
WHat a shame they are dumbing her down already... Have they taught her verbal judo yet?

Ron-Solo
03-12-2012, 12:14 AM
Recruits are often under such stress that they don't catch the actual concept of what the instructor is saying.

Years ago, I used to lecture at our academy. All material was reviewed for accuracy and content before class to make sure we were giving out correct information. I was often amazed t the answers provided by recruits on the exams, especially when it was an essay type question rather than multiple guess

For those of you to assume that the instructor is giving out inaccurate information based on what a recruit says, is absurd. You have no clue.

bubbapug1
03-12-2012, 10:15 AM
does this make any sense? these guns are bought to protect the house but the gun is being stolen from the house it was intended to protect???:)

You must only have one gun and one house....because your deductive powers probably limit your income earning ability.

paul0660
03-12-2012, 10:23 AM
Thanks for the info Leo's.

budprop
03-12-2012, 10:37 AM
My wife is attending the P.O.S.T academy to start a career in law enforcement and has informed me that we are committing a felony in our household.

I keep my Taurus PT111 in the case it was purchased in, without a lock on the case or any locks on the firearm itself. I also keep one magazine loaded with 5 rounds of defense ammunition. I do this in case I need to defend my home. We keep my handgun upstairs in a discrete location that's easily accessible, and hers the same, downstairs, also loaded with 5 rounds of defense ammunition, but hers is in the original glock case with a fast combo word lock.

she informs me that 1. its illegal to keep your ammunition with the firearm, and 2. that they must either have a lock on the case, or a firearm installed lock.

it was my understanding that you only have to do this if you have children under the age of 18 in the household. since we do not have any children we should be in the green.

after looking at the cal law website http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/tips

i have found its only a felony/mistemener when it mentions children under 18. otherwise it says "Guns and ammunition should be stored separately." as if its a recommendation but not a hard law


You have SERIOUS business to attend to. You also have an opportunity to create something truly rare, an INFORMED public servant.

First thing you need to do is try as hard as you can to talk your wife out of pursuing the path she is going down and to spend her time learning everything she can about how to preserve rights instead of infringing upon them. Being that the latter pays much better than the former go back to the opportunity of a lifetime and make her an informed member of the Gestapo.

Understandably, no person becomes a law enforcement agent or bureaucrat to maliciously attack the citizenry. They do so to "do good", "protect and serve". Your wife, I am sure, has the most altruistic of intentions (aside from the paycheck and cool car). The problem comes when the institution, under the guise of "protecting the people", teaches the enforcers that the institutional power is right and the citizenry is corrupt and un-lawful. This is why POST does not teach law, it teaches enforcement of policy.

The problem is not the officer, it is the affects of organizational POWER on normal human minds.

The solution is to learn KNOWLEDGE. Do not accept "law" as your wife's directors teach it. Claim your common law rights, learn what that means, question EVERYTHING on record, and question the answers. Only by learning and finding KNOWLEDGE can your wife "protect and serve" and uphold the ideals that are driving her to her calling.

Further reading on how to effectively find knowledge can be found at www.think.ws and links attached.

Thus ends rant.
In the words of the man I learned way to little from, but intend to remedy: "Carry on and continue having way too much fun!"

notme92069
03-12-2012, 12:32 PM
What about driving while bareback?

When did this turn into a Neil post?

el chivo
03-12-2012, 1:47 PM
It is perfectly legal to have a loaded gun anywhere in your home.

the restrictions you are worrying about are only when transporting.

creekside
03-12-2012, 4:33 PM
Even the NRA recommends storing ammo separately from firearms, and securing the firearm unloaded when not in use.

However, a firearm kept loaded for self-defense purposes as part of a home safety plan is in fact "in use" and possibly continuously so.

The problem is when you leave the house, which is when the firearm should be secured and unloaded for maximum safety. You don't want an intruder finding your gun and shooting you with it when you come home in the middle of the burglary, right?

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that loaded firearm(s) should be routinely kept in the home without carefully thinking things through in advance. However, the suggestion that it is unlawful to have a loaded firearm inside your residence (unless you live in campus housing or some other special scenario . . .) is absurd.

I'd really like to get a copy of the current Learning Domain (LD) for firearms law, with the new code section numbers. If anyone has it and is willing to share, please PM me. Thanks.

Flopper
03-12-2012, 4:52 PM
. . . The next FUD is that only having 5 rounds in your gun is better for the spring.. springs don't wear by being compressed.. they wear from being compressed and expanded over and over. In other words the spring doesn't care if it's completely compressed or completely relaxed. Carrying only 5 rounds in your mag does absolutly nothing except give you less rounds to defend yourself against one (or more) druged up intruders.

QFT

what is FUD?

i only keep 5 rounds in there to prevent the spring being bound for long periods and i figure i can get the job done with only 1 so i have 5x's as much as i need. unless theirs multiples but then likelihood factor just exponentially increased

Handgun rounds are NOTORIOUSLY underpowered. I would never trust one pistol round to get the job done, regardless of caliber, and neither should you.

You're also not considering multiple attackers, or missing your target.

I HIGHLY recommend you take a pistol class from a reputable instructor so they can clue you into the reality of a handgun fight.

alfred1222
03-12-2012, 4:55 PM
youre all good dude, nothing about u keeping a loaded gun is illegal. like its been said, ask her to cite PC, it will help her learn!! and its FUD

five.five-six
03-12-2012, 5:05 PM
but what if I live in a motorhome :confused:

toopercentmlk
03-12-2012, 6:15 PM
It's a shame that your wife is being taught FUD at the P.O.S.T. academy
I highly doubt the instructors are at fault here, instructors tend to have many years of police work under their belts before they make it to the class room. The FUD probably comes from her fellow know-it-all recruits. I bet the question never came up during class, rather during break.

X231
03-12-2012, 6:25 PM
When I was kid in Kirkland Washington, I saw a woman driving a two wheel drive Toyota truck completely nude. No lie.

I would probably have not noticed the make of the truck and certainly not if it was 2 or 4wd ;)

HowardW56
03-12-2012, 6:27 PM
When I was kid in Kirkland Washington, I saw a woman driving a two wheel drive Toyota truck completely nude. No lie.

You noticed the truck?

diginit
03-12-2012, 6:30 PM
You can walk around in your home with it loaded up to your property line
Wrong...You carry it outside of your home and you are doing time unless your yare is fenced and driveway is gated.

diginit
03-12-2012, 6:33 PM
You can walk around in your home with it loaded up to your property line
Wrong. If you carry it outside loaded or concieled and get caught. Unless you have a fenced yard and closed gate on the driveway, You are going to jail. Also if you have a child in the house in Ca, It must be inaccessable to them. Locked. Wiki is the way to learn the truth.

Connor P Price
03-12-2012, 6:45 PM
I highly doubt the instructors are at fault here, instructors tend to have many years of police work under their belts before they make it to the class room. The FUD probably comes from her fellow know-it-all recruits. I bet the question never came up during class, rather during break.

It's entirely possible that it was an instructor. I have personal knowledge of a POST instructor telling a recent class that all AR15 pattern rifles are illegal in CA. Another instructor told the same class that UOC is considered loaded carry if the person has a loaded magazine unless said magazine is on the opposite side of their belt buckle. Luckily recruits in this class were brave enough to question their instructors and be sure that the FUD, was corrected. They were rewarded for doing so.

With the pretty darn large number of CA LEOs who don't understand California gun laws it's pretty obvious POST is not doing a sufficient job on the subject.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

locosway
03-12-2012, 6:48 PM
Recruits are often under such stress that they don't catch the actual concept of what the instructor is saying.

Years ago, I used to lecture at our academy. All material was reviewed for accuracy and content before class to make sure we were giving out correct information. I was often amazed t the answers provided by recruits on the exams, especially when it was an essay type question rather than multiple guess

For those of you to assume that the instructor is giving out inaccurate information based on what a recruit says, is absurd. You have no clue.

Maybe they shouldn't pass the POST test and become a LEO if they can't remember something simple about an enumerated right.

Connor P Price
03-12-2012, 6:50 PM
Wrong. If you carry it outside loaded or concieled and get caught. Unless you have a fenced yard and closed gate on the driveway, You are going to jail. Also if you have a child in the house in Ca, It must be inaccessable to them. Locked. Wiki is the way to learn the truth.

Your second point is incorrect. There is no mandate that firearms be locked or inaccessible to children. There is however a law which saddles the owner of the firearm with liability if their gun is used by a child to harm someone or something and it was not kept under lock and key.

One may keep their guns loaded up on the kitchen table at all times in front of their kids if they choose. Nothing illegal about it.

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CSACANNONEER
03-12-2012, 6:52 PM
Wrong. If you carry it outside loaded or concieled and get caught. Unless you have a fenced yard and closed gate on the driveway, You are going to jail. Also if you have a child in the house in Ca, It must be inaccessable to them. Locked. Wiki is the way to learn the truth.

Wrong. There is no law preventing one from storing a firearm where a minor has access to it.Also, your fenced yard arguemrnt isn't law. There are many property owners who carry
firearms on their unfenced property with the knowledge and even at the suggestion of local LEOs.

HowardW56
03-12-2012, 7:00 PM
Wrong. There is no law preventing one from storing a firearm where a minor has access to it.Also, your fenced yard arguemrnt isn't law. There are many property owners who carry
firearms on their unfenced property with the knowledge and even at the suggestion of local LEOs.

CSACANNONEER, Please read People v. Strider (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3393446215002445785&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr), the fenced yard is case law...

Connor P Price
03-12-2012, 7:10 PM
Recruits are often under such stress that they don't catch the actual concept of what the instructor is saying.

Years ago, I used to lecture at our academy. All material was reviewed for accuracy and content before class to make sure we were giving out correct information. I was often amazed t the answers provided by recruits on the exams, especially when it was an essay type question rather than multiple guess

For those of you to assume that the instructor is giving out inaccurate information based on what a recruit says, is absurd. You have no clue.

There are often Q&A sessions which may cover information outside of the well vetted curriculum are there not? That clearly presents an opportunity for the spreading of misinformation.

It may be that the recruit misunderstood and you are right that it's a bit absurd to assume the recruit is absolutely correct. However it also may be that the instructor gave some misinformation in response to a question rather than from the material. It seems at least a bit absurd to discount that as a possibility as well.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

Cylarz
03-12-2012, 11:22 PM
I don't know if its legal or not, but to keep a gun in a house without a safe is an invitation to trouble. We see many threads here where members get guns stolen, and almost in every case, they weren't in a safe.

How hard and expensive would it be to put it in a safe? Even a small safe??

This.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that the classic "riot gun" (short barrel, pump action 12 gauge shotgun with reloads on the side of the receiver), is the weapon of choice for home defense for a variety of reasons. Not a handgun. A shotgun offers greater killing power, less penetration of walls, less need to aim, more lax regulations on possession, transport and storage than with handguns. I keep it in my safe and have to hope I can get to it in time, but then I have a small child at home and am not willing to take the risk of her finding it. It *is* loaded, however, so if I can get the door open in time I'll be ready.

I definitely keep my handguns locked up in the safe unless I'm headed to the range. I don't leave them lying around or stored in a "discreet" location. I have weighed the possible scenarios, and decided that the odds of being burgled while away from home are much greater than being burgled while I AM at home. Burglars aren't always the smartest tools in the shed, but they aren't stupid either; they want to break into homes, rummage through "discreet locations," and steal small, valuable items that are easy to carry off and easy to fence - cash, jewelry, tools, and guns. Not get confronted by the homeowner, and be arrested or shot. The one nightmare scenario for me is the dreaded "home invasion" involving multiple perps, but all I can do is balance preparation against safety.

Statistics I've seen would indicate that indeed the chances of burglary are about 3 to 1 for not-home vs home, respectively. (In Canada it's closer to 1:1 since their citizens are far less likely to be armed at home.)

locosway
03-13-2012, 6:31 AM
This.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that the classic "riot gun" (short barrel, pump action 12 gauge shotgun with reloads on the side of the receiver), is the weapon of choice for home defense for a variety of reasons. Not a handgun. A shotgun offers greater killing power, less penetration of walls, less need to aim, more lax regulations on possession, transport and storage than with handguns. I keep it in my safe and have to hope I can get to it in time, but then I have a small child at home and am not willing to take the risk of her finding it. It *is* loaded, however, so if I can get the door open in time I'll be ready.

So what you're really saying is you have no idea what you're talking about. Shotguns can be a great tool, and can have much more lethal effects on a target than a handgun. However, they do not penetrate less, you still need to aim just like a rifle or handgun, and they're also more complicated for people to keep up and running during a gun fight.

If you haven't yet, I'd suggest taking the shotgun out to a range and shooting it a few times.

HowardW56
03-13-2012, 6:40 AM
So what you're really saying is you have no idea what you're talking about. Shotguns can be a great tool, and can have much more lethal effects on a target than a handgun. However, they do not penetrate less, you still need to aim just like a rifle or handgun, and they're also more complicated for people to keep up and running during a gun fight.

If you haven't yet, I'd suggest taking the shotgun out to a range and shooting it a few times.


:iagree:

CSACANNONEER
03-13-2012, 6:41 AM
CSACANNONEER, Please read People v. Strider (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3393446215002445785&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr), the fenced yard is case law...

That is one case. There are plenty of rural properties which are not completely fenced in and the owners or tenants are encouraged to carry by local LEOs.

HowardW56
03-13-2012, 7:04 AM
You can walk around in your home with it loaded up to your property line

Wrong. If you carry it outside loaded or concieled and get caught. Unless you have a fenced yard and closed gate on the driveway, You are going to jail. Also if you have a child in the house in Ca, It must be inaccessable to them. Locked. Wiki is the way to learn the truth.

Wrong. There is no law preventing one from storing a firearm where a minor has access to it.Also, your fenced yard arguemrnt isn't law. There are many property owners who carry
firearms on their unfenced property with the knowledge and even at the suggestion of local LEOs.

CSACANNONEER, Please read People v. Strider (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3393446215002445785&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr), the fenced yard is case law...

That is one case. There are plenty of rural properties which are not completely fenced in and the owners or tenants are encouraged to carry by local LEOs.

CSACANNONEER, I won't dispute that you may have an understanding with local law enforcement, however I have always understood the goal here on CGN to be keeping people out of trouble through accurate information. People v. Strider (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3393446215002445785&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) is valid law and applicable anywhere in the state, and doesn't rely on any locally accepted practice.

I would hate to hear of someone getting arrested due to reliance on partially accurate information or in this case, a locally accepted practice, that is not supported by law.

cacop
03-13-2012, 8:36 AM
There are often Q&A sessions which may cover information outside of the well vetted curriculum are there not? That clearly presents an opportunity for the spreading of misinformation.

It may be that the recruit misunderstood and you are right that it's a bit absurd to assume the recruit is absolutely correct. However it also may be that the instructor gave some misinformation in response to a question rather than from the material. It seems at least a bit absurd to discount that as a possibility as well.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

There is no time for Q&A unless you are talking about the time spent at lunch or on a break. Maybe the range LD is a little more informal and the instructors there passed on the FUD but that will be cleared up in the weapons LD later in the academy. Of course she could have gotten the bad info in one of the first days of the academy when you don't even have your gun with you. We couldn't bring ours for a week and a half. We got a 4 hour lecture on safety before we could bring them. It isalso entirely possible the very first day one of her fellow recruits showed up with a loaded gun. Or like the clown in my academy who drove to the first day with a gun on his car seat. I can see a TO blowing a gasket and laying down the academy rules pretty hard and having a FNG mishear through the profanity.

Let us remember the washout rate at the academy is at least 10%.

SanPedroShooter
03-13-2012, 8:56 AM
I would probably have not noticed the make of the truck and certainly not if it was 2 or 4wd ;)

Ha ha, I brought it up because my dad had the 4x4 version which was much taller. You wouldnt have been able to see down inside of it, not even from a little bit off the street level where I was at the time.

As the two wheel drives are much lower, I thought it might help illustrate my point. ;)

Connor P Price
03-13-2012, 10:13 AM
That is one case. There are plenty of rural properties which are not completely fenced in and the owners or tenants are encouraged to carry by local LEOs.

You know that encouragement by local LEOs is not necessarily a guarantee that something is legal.

BoxesOfLiberty
03-13-2012, 11:45 AM
You can walk around in your home with it loaded up to your property line

Where exactly on the magazine is the property line?




</sarcasm>

CSACANNONEER
03-13-2012, 11:53 AM
CSACANNONEER, I won't dispute that you may have an understanding with local law enforcement, however I have always understood the goal here on CGN to be keeping people out of trouble through accurate information. People v. Strider (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3393446215002445785&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) is valid law and applicable anywhere in the state, and doesn't rely on any locally accepted practice.

I would hate to hear of someone getting arrested due to reliance on partially accurate information or in this case, a locally accepted practice, that is not supported by law.


Fair enough. Now, I would like to point out that, on some unfenced private property one can legally hunt. So, obviously some places in the state have private property where it is legal to carry. Or, am I wrong?

chris
03-13-2012, 11:56 AM
You dont need a lock even with kids. There is some criminal liabilty if they are misued by minors, provided they are not stolen etc...

Is this how police FUD starts, in the classroom? She must have heard wrong.

yep this is how LE learn wrong from the beginning.

Connor P Price
03-13-2012, 12:16 PM
Fair enough. Now, I would like to point out that, on some unfenced private property one can legally hunt. So, obviously some places in the state have private property where it is legal to carry. Or, am I wrong?

Those would tend to be unincorporated areas of a county where carry is unrestricted. You aren't wrong, it just appears that two different situations were being discussed. If it's unincorporated area where carry is legal it shouldn't matter whether its private property at all, so fencing is not an issue.

People often meander between blm and private land that is not fenced while hunting and shooting for example.

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BoxesOfLiberty
03-13-2012, 12:18 PM
It's entirely possible that it was an instructor. I have personal knowledge of a POST instructor telling a recent class that all AR15 pattern rifles are illegal in CA. Another instructor told the same class that UOC is considered loaded carry if the person has a loaded magazine unless said magazine is on the opposite side of their belt buckle. Luckily recruits in this class were brave enough to question their instructors and be sure that the FUD, was corrected. They were rewarded for doing so.

With the pretty darn large number of CA LEOs who don't understand California gun laws it's pretty obvious POST is not doing a sufficient job on the subject.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

Agreed. The instructors are quite conscientious, but are sometimes also quite mistaken, and unfortunately the environment / culture of the academy often doesn't encourage debate or discourse. An indoctrination process is occurring and some cadets feel that the instructors are infallible, while others are simply afraid to question them.

About 20 years ago, my instructor for the weapons LD was an excellent teacher for most of the material he covered in this and other modules, but spewed one striking piece of misinformation: He explained to us that 12031(g) as quoted below, meant that if you had an unloaded pistol in your holster and an unfired round of ammunition in your pocket, that the pistol was loaded, because you (the person carrying them) combined with your clothing constituted a mechanism by which the ammunition was attached to the firearm. He went on to point out that the same would be true if the gun was in a backpack on the back seat of your car, and the ammunition was in the glove compartment (because in this case, the car itself would constitute the attaching mechanism).

A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

I've mentioned this to him since, and he acknowledged the error, saying "that's how most of us thought it should be interpreted then".

CSACANNONEER
03-13-2012, 2:52 PM
Those would tend to be unincorporated areas of a county where carry is unrestricted. You aren't wrong, it just appears that two different situations were being discussed. If it's unincorporated area where carry is legal it shouldn't matter whether its private property at all, so fencing is not an issue.

People often meander between blm and private land that is not fenced while hunting and shooting for example.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

You're right. I did incorrectly state that there was not a law regarding "fenced properties". I really ment to state that the case law in question does not apply to every property in Ca as the qoute below would imply. In a later post, I did make it clear that I was refering to more rural properties.



Wrong. If you carry it outside loaded or concieled and get caught. Unless you have a fenced yard and closed gate on the driveway, You are going to jail. Also if you have a child in the house in Ca, It must be inaccessable to them. Locked. Wiki is the way to learn the truth.

mej16489
03-13-2012, 4:15 PM
People v. Strider (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3393446215002445785&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr), the fenced yard is case law...

Strider is about the loaded condition of a firearm; not about concealment. They are two separate bodies of law.

HowardW56
03-13-2012, 4:25 PM
Strider is about the loaded condition of a firearm; not about concealment. They are two separate bodies of law.

Have you read it?

Freeballer
03-13-2012, 5:27 PM
It should be illegal to only put 5 rounds in your magazine.

Connor P Price
03-13-2012, 5:45 PM
You're right. I did incorrectly state that there was not a law regarding "fenced properties". I really ment to state that the case law in question does not apply to every property in Ca as the qoute below would imply. In a later post, I did make it clear that I was refering to more rural properties.

Then we're in full agreement it appears.

lilro
03-13-2012, 6:31 PM
I keep mine in a safe also. I also have a security system and video monitoring. It's not that I am required to do that; it's because I don't want to lose them in the event of a break in.

And, the wife doesn't want them lying around. (I tried to trade her in for a newer model; but the newer model wasn't on the roster.) :rofl2:

Should SSE something off-roster. :giggity:

But it sounds like the OP's wife must've nodded off when they were talking about handgun transportation, and assumed they were talking about handgun possession in general.

ShootNMove
03-13-2012, 7:31 PM
Is your wife part of a non-affiliate POST academy? Or has she been hired as a recruit through an agency, where she is being paid to go through the academy? Sadly, some of the non-affiliate POST academies have a lower quality of instruction. And as such, there is a lot of vagueness when referring to the law in those academies, which generally causes many misinterpretations...

mej16489
03-14-2012, 2:54 PM
Have you read it?

The holding in Strider is that for the purposed of PC 12031 because the defendant was within the bounds of a fenced yard that the defendant was not in a public place. Therefore 12031 does not apply to a fenced yard.

It doesn't speak to the issue of concealment; 12025 at the time.

Oceanbob
03-14-2012, 4:05 PM
i keep a loaded firearm in every room except the kitchen and bathroom(moisture). no locks or cases.

I like people like you....:)


Now I don't feel so bad...:cool2:

Oceanbob
03-14-2012, 4:13 PM
First..Welcome to Cal Guns...!..Lots of great people here! And you've read this far...plenty of correct advice.

My only advice: ;)

1. Drop kick the Taurus. Get something mainstream

2. You wife has a GLOCK..?...good girl...:cool2:

3. Load up the magazine to the top. All the magazines.

4. Don't keep the GLOCK downstairs in the GLOCK box. Never keep it locked up. Store it with a live magazine, ready to go. Hidden if desired but ready when you want it. Never store a home defense (downstairs weapon) in a locked box.

5. Bring the wife onboard and keep reading this awesome Website. (Thanks Kestryll..!)..really nothing better concerning guns/reloading/shooting/CCW/laws/ classifieds..etc.

Be well, Bob






My wife is attending the P.O.S.T academy to start a career in law enforcement and has informed me that we are committing a felony in our household.

I keep my Taurus PT111 in the case it was purchased in, without a lock on the case or any locks on the firearm itself. I also keep one magazine loaded with 5 rounds of defense ammunition. I do this in case I need to defend my home. We keep my handgun upstairs in a discrete location that's easily accessible, and hers the same, downstairs, also loaded with 5 rounds of defense ammunition, but hers is in the original glock case with a fast combo word lock.

she informs me that 1. its illegal to keep your ammunition with the firearm, and 2. that they must either have a lock on the case, or a firearm installed lock.

it was my understanding that you only have to do this if you have children under the age of 18 in the household. since we do not have any children we should be in the green.

after looking at the cal law website http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/tips

i have found its only a felony/mistemener when it mentions children under 18. otherwise it says "Guns and ammunition should be stored separately." as if its a recommendation but not a hard law

Nightron
04-01-2012, 8:00 AM
Be interesting to hear the instructors response when (if) she brings up the info stated in the replies here.

They'll probably say they are working off of an advance draft copy of what legislature is working on:( ( April 1, 2012 ):nuts:

joash
04-01-2012, 8:53 AM
Worth repeating: Tell her to cite the law.

What section says that? If you don't have a cite, then it's just rumor & innuendo.

Help her study, ask her to cite the PC she is referring to.

Maestro Pistolero
04-01-2012, 9:44 AM
Sounds like she is conflating laws for transporting firearms with storage laws.

Markus
04-01-2012, 9:45 AM
and here i thought this was a bad april fools joke til i looked at the start date....

stix213
06-21-2012, 12:42 PM
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=222779&d=1312849428

RJohnson
06-22-2012, 5:13 AM
If there are kids around, lock em up!

REH
06-22-2012, 5:35 AM
What about driving while bareback?

Way.............. TMI:eek: