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View Full Version : Legality to buy, own & sell 10.5" complete upper


45acpfan
03-10-2012, 12:02 AM
I have a good deal & chance to buy this exact upper and see the opportunity to resell it again & make profit out of it:
http://www.lmtstore.com/catalog/product/gallery/id/217/image/259/

And I totally understand that I cannot mount this upper to any lower that I have without following CA law & NFA rule.

My question is:
Is it legal for me to jump on the deal, buy & ship it to my door, then sell it later on, but meanwhile store it " as is" (upper only), no lower attached on it while in my possesion).

Thanks in advance.

Quiet
03-10-2012, 12:18 AM
My question is:
Is it legal for me to jump on the deal, buy & ship it to my door, then sell it later on, but meanwhile store it " as is" (upper only), no lower attached on it while in my possesion).
CA constructive possession on SBR/SBS.

You can own/possess the 10.5" AR upper as long as you do not own any AR lowers (that are not hadnguns) or AR rifles.
Even if you you store them in different physical locations, you are still in violation. [PC 17170(e)]

Bottom Line:
As long as you do not own any AR type rifles, you can legally possess the less than 16" barrel.


Penal Code 17170
As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section 27500) of Chapter 4 of Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(a) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(b) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(c) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

45acpfan
03-10-2012, 12:23 AM
I see, so it's a no go for me.

Thanks for the reply.

EBR Works
03-10-2012, 5:53 AM
The exception would be if you own an AR pistol lower or complete AR pistol. You would then have a legal avenue of buying and possessing this.

Dark Sky Solutions
03-10-2012, 6:02 AM
The exception would be if you own an AR pistol lower or complete AR pistol. You would then have a legal avenue of buying and possessing this.

My question to your post is...

If I own a legal AR pistol can I also own a AR15 Cal legal rifle? The way that code reads is it is one or the other. Insight into this would be great.

EBR Works
03-10-2012, 6:05 AM
My question to your post is...

If I own a legal AR pistol can I also own a AR15 Cal legal rifle? The way that code reads is it is one or the other. Insight into this would be great.

Yes.

Dark Sky Solutions
03-10-2012, 6:07 AM
Yes.

Thank u for the answer.

rromeo
03-10-2012, 6:58 AM
Federally, I am okay with a virgin stripped lower. Is that different in California if it's not a marked pistol lower?

morrcarr67
03-10-2012, 7:02 AM
Federally, I am okay with a virgin stripped lower. Is that different in California if it's not a marked pistol lower?

It's not the marking; it's the CA DROS process that comes into play. In CA it must be DROSed as a Long Gun unless you are an exempt person or you PPT one that was DROSed as a pistol or brought in from a different state that was not put through CA's DROS system.

the86d
03-10-2012, 7:16 AM
Wow, I didn't know that I couldn't even own upper parts for even a SHTF prep. I have 3 rifle lowers and I was planning on getting one, (in the distant future) and just keeping it locked up in case I visit my friends in a free-state. I guess I won't. :)

Good info.

Dark Sky Solutions
03-10-2012, 7:24 AM
It's not the marking; it's the CA DROS process that comes into play. In CA it must be DROSed as a Long Gun unless you are an exempt person or you PPT one that was DROSed as a pistol or brought in from a different state that was not put through CA's DROS system.

I am assuming this also includes if u build your own out of an 80% also, does it not.

rromeo
03-10-2012, 7:25 AM
It's not the marking; it's the CA DROS process that comes into play. In CA it must be DROSed as a Long Gun unless you are an exempt person or you PPT one that was DROSed as a pistol or brought in from a different state that was not put through CA's DROS system.

Correct. Now, is it legal in California to have a virgin stripped lower that is not marked pistol, and a barrel <16"?

the86d
03-10-2012, 7:34 AM
Sooo...

"My (live-in) girlfriend" cannot own an AR pistol, because "I" have AR Rifles (in the house)?

huntercf
03-10-2012, 7:37 AM
Sooo...

"My girlfriend" cannot own an AR pistol, because "I" have AR Rifles (in the house)?

FUD, someone correct me if I am wrong, but as long as you have a complete pistol and a complete AR then you are GTG. The constructive possession would be if you ONLY had the upper and no pistol lower and you had an AR lower or AR complete.

morrcarr67
03-10-2012, 7:39 AM
I am assuming this also includes if u build your own out of an 80% also, does it not.

Yes, sorry I forgot that one.

Lone_Gunman
03-10-2012, 7:43 AM
So if you own an AR rifle, and an unfinished 80% lower that you plan on using on a pistol build can you buy the pistol upper or do you have to finish the lower first?

morrcarr67
03-10-2012, 7:43 AM
Correct. Now, is it legal in California to have a virgin stripped lower that is not marked pistol, and a barrel <16"?

YES.

Though, I'm pretty sure it would have to have been DROSed as a Pistol or you you would have had to build it yourself from an 80% lower.

If you only have lowers that were DROSed as Long Guns I would not take a chance with CA gun laws and buy a <16" upper/barrel.

the86d
03-10-2012, 7:43 AM
Well, I bought 3 stripped lowers (AR Rifles).

I built one up to a full rifle, and have a LPK in one, and the other is still stripped.

If I get her a stripped Pistol lower, and start building it, I can get screwed due to just having parts (depending on which ones I have sitting around the house)?

(I read the FED AWB [now null and void] no longer includes "constructive possession" even side-by-side.)

morrcarr67
03-10-2012, 7:45 AM
Sooo...

"My (live-in) girlfriend" cannot own an AR pistol, because "I" have AR Rifles (in the house)?

FUD, someone correct me if I am wrong, but as long as you have a complete pistol and a complete AR then you are GTG. The constructive possession would be if you ONLY had the upper and no pistol lower and you had an AR lower or AR complete.

Mostly correct. A complete pistol or a virgin lower that was built from an 80% or somehow DROSed as a pistol would be OK too.

morrcarr67
03-10-2012, 7:47 AM
Well, I bought 3 stripped lowers (AR Rifles).

I built one up to a full rifle, and have a LPK in one, and the other is still stripped.

If I get her a stripped Pistol lower, and start building it, I can get screwed due to just having parts (depending on which ones I have sitting around the house)?

(I read the FED AWB [now null and void] no longer includes "constructive possession" even side-by-side.)

Do you live in CA?

If you do you still have to play by their rules. Their house their rules.

So, the answer is yes. Because you don't have a lower that CA believes is a pistol.

morrcarr67
03-10-2012, 7:52 AM
So if you own an AR rifle, and an unfinished 80% lower that you plan on using on a pistol build can you buy the pistol upper or do you have to finish the lower first?

I would complete the lower first. Until then it is just a paperweight.

A complete rifle, pistol upper and a paperweight is not a good idea.

the86d
03-10-2012, 7:54 AM
So I should put a bullet button on a "Multi-" marked (planned as a) 22lr lower (I have yet to purchase the upper for) I am going to build because of constructive possibilities, and forget about getting my lady a stripped AR pistol lower all together, then? (Or at least until I build the others complete. I really bought 3 because I was worried of the possibility that they would be banned, so I grandfathered myself in...)

morrcarr67
03-10-2012, 7:58 AM
So I should put a bullet button on a "Multi-" marked (planned as a) 22lr lower (I have yet to purchase the upper for) I am going to build because of constructive possibilities, and forget about getting my lady a stripped AR pistol lower all together, then? (Or at least until I build the others complete.)

No need IF ALL you put on that lower is a rimfire upper. If you ever put on a centerfire upper you better put in a mag lock of some sort; I do prefer the Bullet Button (r).

the86d
03-10-2012, 8:04 AM
If I fully assemble a lower (say "lower #2") destined for a dedicated 22lr upper, but have no dedicated 22lr upper, as of yet, then I could have constructive parts for a non-BB lower, could I get into trouble even if I am waiting for parts, and the other rifle is complete? (Sorry a bit off topic, but I need to know this. :) )

EBR Works
03-10-2012, 9:57 AM
If I fully assemble a lower (say "lower #2") destined for a dedicated 22lr upper, but have no dedicated 22lr upper, as of yet, then I could have constructive parts for a non-BB lower, could I get into trouble even if I am waiting for parts, and the other rifle is complete? (Sorry a bit off topic, but I need to know this. :) )

No. Constructive possession only applies to NFA firearms (SBS, SBR, MG, suppressors, etc).

A fully assembled lower without an upper attached does not require a bullet button.

BigDogatPlay
03-10-2012, 10:50 AM
Wow, I didn't know that I couldn't even own upper parts for even a SHTF prep. I have 3 rifle lowers and I was planning on getting one, (in the distant future) and just keeping it locked up in case I visit my friends in a free-state. I guess I won't. :)

Good info.

Just my opinion, but even in a free state if you assemble that short barrel upper to a receiver that was transferred as a rifle I think you'd be manufacturing an SBR, ownership of which requires a federal tax stamp.

I could be wrong.

EBR Works
03-10-2012, 11:09 AM
Just my opinion, but even in a free state if you assemble that short barrel upper to a receiver that was transferred as a rifle I think you'd be manufacturing an SBR, ownership of which requires a federal tax stamp.

I could be wrong.

You are correct. Constructive possession laws are Federal and apply to all States. California has their own SBR/SBS laws that are even more restrictive.

Ron-Solo
03-10-2012, 9:15 PM
Since the serial number on a stripped lower isn't included on a DROS (yet) what if you take your virgin stripped lower and did a "voluntary registration" as pistol? Stripped Receivers, correct me if I'm wrong, are DROS'd as a receiver, neither a long gun or handgun. The only place the serial number is reported, for now, is on the 4473.

Just thinking of ways to skin a cat...

morrcarr67
03-10-2012, 10:06 PM
Ron - The CA DROS process does indeed make one choose long gun or handgun. Which is why an AR style lower is DROSed as a long gun to non-exempt people and may be DROSed as either to an exempt person.

Quiet
03-10-2012, 10:36 PM
So I should put a bullet button on a "Multi-" marked (planned as a) 22lr lower (I have yet to purchase the upper for) I am going to build because of constructive possibilities, and forget about getting my lady a stripped AR pistol lower all together, then? (Or at least until I build the others complete. I really bought 3 because I was worried of the possibility that they would be banned, so I grandfathered myself in...)

No need IF ALL you put on that lower is a rimfire upper. If you ever put on a centerfire upper you better put in a mag lock of some sort; I do prefer the Bullet Button (r).

Handgun assault weapon laws are different than rifle assault weapon laws.

A rimfire AR pistol must have a maglock on it.
If it doesn't it would be an unregsitered assault weapon due to being able to accept a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip. [PC 30515(a)(4)(D)]


Penal Code 30515
(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, "assault weapon" also means any of the following:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer's hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

tiki
03-11-2012, 4:18 AM
What I'm curious about is the barrel on an AR pistol. AR barrels are threaded, so how does one legally posses an AR pistol with a threaded barrel?

morrcarr67
03-11-2012, 7:07 AM
What I'm curious about is the barrel on an AR pistol. AR barrels are threaded, so how does one legally posses an AR pistol with a threaded barrel?

To have an AR pistol you MUST have a mag lock of some kind to comply with CA AW laws. The mag lock make all those evil features harm lees in the eyes of the law.

morrcarr67
03-11-2012, 7:08 AM
Handgun assault weapon laws are different than rifle assault weapon laws.

A rimfire AR pistol must have a maglock on it.
If it doesn't it would be an unregsitered assault weapon due to being able to accept a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip. [PC 30515(a)(4)(D)]


Penal Code 30515
(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, "assault weapon" also means any of the following:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer's hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

All true and thanks for pointing it out but I believe he was talking about a rifle in the last couple of post leading up to this one.

rromeo
03-11-2012, 1:56 PM
I live outside of California. I buy a stripped lower receiver. It is legal for me to build it as a pistol. I move to California with this stripped lower receiver that has never been assembled. It is good to go on a federal level, does it pass the sniff test for California's constructive possession laws?

Also, morrcarr67, I reread my earlier posts and I apologize for lack of clarity and if I put off any attitude. That wasn't my intention.

morrcarr67
03-11-2012, 2:27 PM
I live outside of California. I buy a stripped lower receiver. It is legal for me to build it as a pistol.

For the most part YES. I don't know all the different states laws but under federal you are GTG.



I move to California with this stripped lower receiver that has never been assembled. It is good to go on a federal level, does it pass the sniff test for California's constructive possession laws?

YES.

Why? because it hasn't gone through CA's DROS system which is what screws us up on building a pistol from a stripped lower we buy in CA. To help cover your butt I would ask the dealer for a copy of the 4473 showing that it has been log out as an "Other".



Also, morrcarr67, I reread my earlier posts and I apologize for lack of clarity and if I put off any attitude. That wasn't my intention.

I just looked over your post and see nothing wrong with them. I hope I didn't saying anything to make you feel like you did.

But, thank you Sir for your concern. :cool:

Maestro Pistolero
03-11-2012, 2:54 PM
It's not a gun, so have it shipped directly to a friend out of state. Have your friend ship it to the buyer. You'll never be in possession of it.

45acpfan
03-12-2012, 8:05 PM
How about, if it is just a barrel with FSB (no receiver attached), is it OK to own it just like that?

Quiet
03-13-2012, 11:18 PM
How about, if it is just a barrel with FSB (no receiver attached), is it OK to own it just like that?

See my first post in this thread.

Bottom Line:
As long as you do not own any AR type rifles, you can legally possess the less than 16" barrel.