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View Full Version : Help me select featureless black rifle!


Doctor Suarez
03-09-2012, 9:13 PM
UPDATE: Skip to this post: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=8496714&postcount=34 for current status of question.

I'm pondering the purchase of a cheap-ish featureless rifle to own here in CA. To give you some idea, my two options right now are the Kel Tec SU-16CA or the RAA Saiga. I'd like to know which of these options you all prefer, or if I'm missing one. Some particulars:

-I'm looking for something with detachable magazines, not bullet-button or other tooled-reloading.
-I'd like to make this a high-speed, low-drag carbine. Light weight, quick handling, fast red dot optic.
-I'd like the magazines and ammo to be as headache-free as possible. Nothing hard to get or unreliable.
-I already have a 7.62 NATO rifle with a good supply of milsurp to back it up, but my thinking right now is that I'd like something lighter and cheaper to feed to accompany it.
-I'm looking to spend in the neighborhood of $1000 total, including rifle, mags, optic, ammo supply, and some webgear for training. It's not a hard cap, but there you go.

The Kel Tec is pretty self-explanatory. As for the Saiga, I'm open to various calibers depending on which ones are easiest/cheapest to get and which magazines work best and are easiest to obtain.

Thanks!

**EDIT: In case I'm using the word "featureless" incorrectly, what I mean is that I would like it to be CA AWB compliant in the sense that the only "evil" feature would be the detachable magazine. No pistol grips or any other unspeakably immoral doohickeys.

cantcme
03-09-2012, 11:07 PM
I love my saiga 7.62x39 with vortex strikefire. Drop free mags, plenty of power but low recoil. Can't beat the price.

ap3572001
03-09-2012, 11:11 PM
Benelli MR1 and NEW production Mini 14. Have both. Great guns.

mdimeo
03-09-2012, 11:24 PM
su16ca is slick. Nice and light, the folding feature is neat, ergo is good. Takes Ar15 magazines.

eifersucht
03-10-2012, 4:51 AM
I would go for the saiga 7.62 - mostly because I kinda want one. As long as you have a place you can fire cheap bear ammo for practice.

MongooseV8
03-10-2012, 5:12 AM
Mini 14 hands down. Or maybe a mini 30 for the x39?

Rekrab
03-10-2012, 5:36 AM
I can't understand the logic in buying a mini when Saigas are available.

If ammo restrictions are not a concern you just can't beat the overall value of a saiga in 5.45 or 7.62. If ammo restrictions are an issue, you still have the option of going with the saiga .223.

Personally, I would convert a saiga for the improved ergonomics and use a grip wrap to make it featureless. Hell, any AK clone is pretty much a grip wrap away from being featureless!

The Virus
03-10-2012, 5:37 AM
mini 14, the others are junk

r8dr rider
03-10-2012, 7:42 AM
Sagia with a Fastfire on a MI mini dot mount. That's what I'm running (except my Saiga is converted)

Write Winger
03-10-2012, 9:11 AM
Kel Tec. Light and fun. Packs well. Inexpensive. AR mag compatible. Giggity.

Doctor Suarez
03-10-2012, 9:12 AM
You guys raise a good question. While I generally can't get to the rifle range much at all thanks to my kids, when I do I'm pretty much always restricted to non-magnetic rounds. I shoot at Angeles Range, and they're pretty durned strict about it.

As for the com-bloc rounds, are they generally available in non-magnetic in SoCal? If I can't find ammo I can shoot at my range, that will pretty much be the dealbreaker.

As for the Mini... I don't know. My friend has a highly-modded one, but I just can't work up the excitement to pay all that for a rifle that doesn't really blow my skirt up.

I've also been wondering about maybe a cheap AR build on an OLL, but I don't know how the process works. Ideally, I'd build it on a CA-legal stock-grip combo. But again, I don't know how the process works, so I'm highly trepidatious about it.

CSACANNONEER
03-10-2012, 9:16 AM
I've had a Kel Tec. I own a Saiga. I own featureless ARs, AKs, a CETME, VZ58, etc. If I had to choose one featureless rifle, I'd go with a featureless AR.

MultiCaliber
03-10-2012, 9:22 AM
Voted kel-tec. If non-magnetic jacketed ammo is a must, forget anything in x39. Mini-14 needs too many mods to be awesome. Good luck.

Doctor Suarez
03-10-2012, 9:31 AM
Yeah, just looked up what it takes to build an OLL. Don't think that's gonna happen. It appears as though you have to build it with a tooled-magazine catch anyway, even if you're NEVER going to put a pistol grip on it. Weak!

Doctor Suarez
03-10-2012, 9:32 AM
Here's a question: If I go Kel Tec and primarily use an optic, which is the best model to buy? The A or the CA? I'm not interested in an even lighter barrel, so the B is probably out.

CSACANNONEER
03-10-2012, 9:42 AM
Yeah, just looked up what it takes to build an OLL. Don't think that's gonna happen. It appears as though you have to build it with a tooled-magazine catch anyway, even if you're NEVER going to put a pistol grip on it. Weak!

What? No mag lock is required or even desired on a featureless AR. What do you think it takes to build a featureless AR? It could be as simple as buying one complete or buying a mag locked one, putting a grip wrap on it (can be done using a butter knife if you don't own a screw driver), removing the mag lock and replacing with a standard mag catch. Of course, this assumes a fixed stock and muzzle brake came on the rifle. But, even those features are easily and quickly able to be removed.

Correctly putting optics on a Kel Tec takes some doing. I remember an article in an old "Blue Pess" explaining some problems and how they were overcome. Also, SU16s were not intened to be rapid fire weapons. I've watched barrels heat up to the point where the front site softens to the point it just twists around until it's hanging from the bottom of the barrel.

Doctor Suarez
03-10-2012, 9:51 AM
So clearly I don't know my *** from my elbow on OLLs. Part of it, however, is simply the act of putting all those teensy-weensy pieces together correctly. Scary. But I'm being a sissy.

So if you buy a stripped lower, OLL of course, you can then build it with detachable mags provided you also build it with a compliant grip? Sounds promising...

I haven't handled any, but just going by looks, I'd lean towards the U-15 stock.

SuperSet
03-10-2012, 9:54 AM
It's hard to find the U-15 stock anymore since they're not made. The closest thing would be the Hammerhead. If you want to build a featureless that you can easily accessorize for the future, choose the AR and have the shop that you buy the lower put it together for you. The assembly fee will not be expensive.

Moonshine
03-10-2012, 9:59 AM
Just use grip wrap on a featureless AK more resale value than a featureless AR. And it you go with a monte Carlo type stock rifle rogue hammer forged mini 14 or if you can afford Benelli

Doctor Suarez
03-10-2012, 10:05 AM
I must say, the Hammerhead looks pretty slick. This is sorely tempting...

As for the AK, if the combloc ammo is magnetic, it'll become a safe queen, which is not at all my intent for this rifle.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
03-10-2012, 11:29 AM
I'd go with a featureless AR first, a featureless AK in .223 second, the Saiga .223 third, Saiga 7.62X39 fourth, the Kel-Tec fifth, the Mini-14 or -30 last.

You may want to fire a Saiga before you go that way. I owned a .308; it was an accurate rifle, but the stock ergonomics were just a little strange and I knew I'd never get around to converting it, so I sold it to someone who would.

SJgunguy24
03-10-2012, 11:36 AM
AR or Saiga 223 with the AR magwell conversion.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/SJgunguy24/1235.jpg

This is a bit of an experiment on my part. The stock doubles as a trenching tool, or a battering ram. Running the MMG is the way to go if your going with a featureless AK.

CSACANNONEER
03-10-2012, 1:43 PM
If you want to fondle a MMG AK, a gripwrapped AK, a MMG AR, possibly a grip wrapped AR (I might have a gripwrap for an AR that I could throw on something) or a U15 on a stripped lower, I might be able to meet you somewhere. Also, you don't have to go the stripped lower route for a featureless AR. You could always order a complete production lower reciever from a larger company or have EBR Works, Addax Tactical or another 07FFL do a custom build for you for a small fee.



SJgunguy24,
Nice stock but, do you think the rivets, receiver and trunion would hld up to it being used as a battering ram?

BraveUlysses
03-10-2012, 2:18 PM
I voted Kel Tec SU-16CA; I'll probably pick one up this year.
I'm surprised you didn't list Mini-14. It would be a very solid choice.

Doctor Suarez
03-11-2012, 10:36 AM
Wow... I am dizzy with options here. I'll try to respond to the many, many good points raised.

I took a few shots with my friend's Saiga 7.62x39. Felt okay to me. I don't really have much access to properly-designed rifles, so my senses may be off. Also, I didn't do a combat reload. Still, shooting-wise, it felt fine.

Seems clear that I'm going to have to go with a NATO round. The commie ammo all seems to be magnetic now. When I used to shop for it locally, there was more range-acceptable stuff out there, but the web sales indicate otherwise. Haven't been rifle shooting in a while so maybe I'm in a cave that way.

Having a proper AR, even with a silly grip, is highly tempting, but the cost seems higher than I had hoped. An OLL is cheap, but uppers all seem to be around 700, the hammerhead is 200+, and that doesn't even get us as far as mags, sights, internals, etc. Financially, that's a bump up from what we're talking about. Not disqualified, but I'd have to reevaluate.

Even though the poll seems to indicate otherwise, a Saiga in .223 seems like a viable option.

Ugh. California... why you gotta be so difficult?

Also, CSA, thank you so much for the offer. I have no idea when I can eventually get to the range. Where do you shoot? For rifles, I primarily go to Angeles.

gotshotgun?
03-11-2012, 10:39 AM
I'd say Mini-14 over saiga. A little more expensive but much more balanced than an unconverted saiga.

p2rider426
03-11-2012, 10:48 AM
Wow... I am dizzy with options here. I'll try to respond to the many, many good points raised.

I took a few shots with my friend's Saiga 7.62x39. Felt okay to me. I don't really have much access to properly-designed rifles, so my senses may be off. Also, I didn't do a combat reload. Still, shooting-wise, it felt fine.

Seems clear that I'm going to have to go with a NATO round. The commie ammo all seems to be magnetic now. When I used to shop for it locally, there was more range-acceptable stuff out there, but the web sales indicate otherwise. Haven't been rifle shooting in a while so maybe I'm in a cave that way.

Having a proper AR, even with a silly grip, is highly tempting, but the cost seems higher than I had hoped. An OLL is cheap, but uppers all seem to be around 700, the hammerhead is 200+, and that doesn't even get us as far as mags, sights, internals, etc. Financially, that's a bump up from what we're talking about. Not disqualified, but I'd have to reevaluate.

Even though the poll seems to indicate otherwise, a Saiga in .223 seems like a viable option.

Ugh. California... why you gotta be so difficult?

Also, CSA, thank you so much for the offer. I have no idea when I can eventually get to the range. Where do you shoot? For rifles, I primarily go to Angeles.

Check out Palmetto State Armory for some awesome uppers for cheap.

CSACANNONEER
03-11-2012, 12:25 PM
I shoot in my backyard or at Angeles.

eifersucht
03-11-2012, 12:48 PM
Wow... I am dizzy with options here. I'll try to respond to the many, many good points raised.

I took a few shots with my friend's Saiga 7.62x39. Felt okay to me. I don't really have much access to properly-designed rifles, so my senses may be off. Also, I didn't do a combat reload. Still, shooting-wise, it felt fine.

Seems clear that I'm going to have to go with a NATO round. The commie ammo all seems to be magnetic now. When I used to shop for it locally, there was more range-acceptable stuff out there, but the web sales indicate otherwise. Haven't been rifle shooting in a while so maybe I'm in a cave that way.

Having a proper AR, even with a silly grip, is highly tempting, but the cost seems higher than I had hoped. An OLL is cheap, but uppers all seem to be around 700, the hammerhead is 200+, and that doesn't even get us as far as mags, sights, internals, etc. Financially, that's a bump up from what we're talking about. Not disqualified, but I'd have to reevaluate.

Even though the poll seems to indicate otherwise, a Saiga in .223 seems like a viable option.

Ugh. California... why you gotta be so difficult?

Also, CSA, thank you so much for the offer. I have no idea when I can eventually get to the range. Where do you shoot? For rifles, I primarily go to Angeles.

Sounds like the Saiga 223 is your best bet

SJgunguy24
03-11-2012, 2:45 PM
SJgunguy24,
Nice stock but, do you think the rivets, receiver and trunion would hld up to it being used as a battering ram?

It was designed for battering "soft" targets. The receiver would give out before anything else, but the last inch or so of that receiver is basically a square steel tube that's welded in place.


I'd say Mini-14 over saiga. A little more expensive but much more balanced than an unconverted saiga.

That's why you convert the Saiga, it's a better balanced package overall and with a MMG is very comfortable to shoot.
A saiga 762 in featureless configuration.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/SJgunguy24/004-14.jpg

MrPlink
03-11-2012, 8:01 PM
Featureless Ak, outside of a pg, they are nearly featureless as is.

lrj812
03-12-2012, 4:09 AM
Saiga .223 sounds like a good choice for you. Something to consider. I have one in x39 and have only shot non magnetic yugo m67 milsurp. Arguably the best and cheapest ammo available in x39. Brass cased, lead core, copper jacket. It is corrosive but if you clean your gun after you shoot like your suppose to it's not a problem. Comes in a cool wooden ammo box.

Ended up converting Saiga and if I had to do it over again I would, but only for the better trigger pull. Featureless original design felt a little forward but still a very pleasurable gun to shoot. Currently have a mag lock and feel like the gun is nuetered, don't like it at all. I am strongly considering going back to featurless with a wraparound grip. Kalifornia!

Mini 14 is a great gun. Friend just bought one brand new. Mini 14's are in the Calguns Marketplace. I think everyone wants AR's so the Mini 14's aren't the flavor of the month. A used one might be had for a good price.

The AR is a great gun also. A little pricier, more accurate than an AK platform. It's on my wish list. Many used for sale but they don't seem any less expensive than new. I am a bit turned off by some of the attitudes I see by owners of this gun. But that's another subject.

I would be happy with any of the guns on your list. I like rifles.

Doctor Suarez
03-12-2012, 9:13 AM
Still pondering, but I wanted to respond to CSA's most courteous offer.

With my kids and whatnot, it's very hard to get to the rifle range. However, would it be all right if I kept that offer in my back pocket until such a time as it became more feasible? I would be happy to bring my Garand and M1 Carbine so I have something for show-and-tell as well.

Doctor Suarez
04-30-2012, 3:36 PM
Update: It looks like, given how rare it is to find com-bloc ammo that I can shoot at local ranges, I should go with a .223 rifle. Also, I may have to take the SU-16 out of the running, since I read a post by Oleg Volk that kind of damns it with faint praise:

http://olegvolk.net/blog/2012/04/25/keltec-su16-in-use/

It just seems too flimsy, and if its most prominent fan describes it that way, then I definitely don't want it. I like tough guns. That, it would appear, takes the middle-cost option off the table. Basically, my two choices as I see them are:

.223 Saiga

or

Featureless CA-Legal AR-15.

Given that my current rifle is a heavy DMR-type weapon, I want to point this one in the opposite direction. Light, handy, simple. Basically, I want to be able to stick a 1X optic up top, probably with a lower 1/3 co-witness, and otherwise keep the weapon pretty stripped and simple. I could imagine putting a light on it, but right now I'm not feeling the intense need to do so.

if I were to build an AR, it would be with a standard mag release and a CA-compliant stock, most likely a hammerhead. I'd like to avoid bullet-button at all costs.

So, given these basic parameters, is building my own AR for over $1000 going to give me that much more value compared to starting with a .223 Saiga, and adding a railed forend for maybe $600 tops? I confess I love the idea of having an AR, but the price seems difficult to justify compared to the scrappy Russian.

Still, I don't know much about this, so I'd welcome your perspective.

Subotai
04-30-2012, 3:42 PM
I voted Keltec, but also vote for a Mini-14. I had a Saiga 7.62x39. While a fine rifle, it was front-heavy. After conversion, it was nice. The new Mini-14's have better barrels and have decent groupings now.

Exile Machine
04-30-2012, 4:50 PM
the hammerhead is 200+

Two hundred dollar Hammerhead? Yikes. It's the 2012 election scare! Someone's gouging! :43:

Hammerhead's only $27.99 (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/exile-machine-hammerhead-ar-15-grip-black-1.html) and that includes free shipping and a 30 day no questions asked return policy.

But maybe you're thinking of one of our complete featureless packages (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/hammerhead-featureless-1-2-3-kit-46325.html) with the stock, ambi-safety, Hammerhead grip and buffer tube. That's certainly one way to go and will put you in the $200 range, but most of our customers (60% of customers according to our last marketing survey) go for the Type III (http://www.exilemachine.net/shop/images/T/TYPE_III.JPG) config (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/pages/hammerhead-configurations-2.html), which is basically just using the Hammerhead to replace your pistol grip and using the old collapsible carbine stock you have gathering dust on a shelf in the garage. Figure 3 cents for a roll pin or rivet and five minutes of your time pinning the stock. If you have to buy the collapsible stock you can find them for dirt cheap. Opt for the RRA ambi-safety for $25 and $30 for a muzzle brake and you're done. Total around $100-$120 or so. Depending on which buttstock you choose, Type III config is going to be the lightest of the 3 wrap-around grip configurations possible. If lightweight is the goal, look at the ACE ARUL-E stock (https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/ace-arul-e-ultralight-stock-entry-complete-assembled-stock-6.html) instead of pinning that dusty old carbine stock.

Oleg Volk
05-01-2012, 8:52 AM
I wouldn't describe SU16 as flimsy. It's a light rifle an as such not suitable for very high volume of fire. I use mine as the primary house gun and consider it very reliable. My chances of having to fire more than three 30rd magazines in a row are pretty remote. If limited to 10-rounders, I don't think you'd run into that issue at all.

Certain parts of SU16 should be replaced for defensive use. I am not a fan of either the stock forend or the plastic compact forend. Either Red Lion or the upcoming Keltec metal forends are preferable.

Doctor Suarez
05-01-2012, 9:48 AM
Hi, Oleg! Great to hear from you. My friend has an SU-16 that I could take another look at. I was pleasantly surprised by it when I fired a few rounds through the weapon. Still, I may simply have been bitten by the AR bug. And the wound is swelling...

Exile Machine: Love the rapid customer response! If I go that way, I was thinking of doing a Type I configuration. Based on my experiences with other rifles, I think I would like a raised cheek-weld relative to the stock. I just wonder if adding a reflex sight would raise it up too high. If one were to use such a sight, is Type I the best build?

Exile Machine
05-01-2012, 10:09 AM
Hi, Oleg! Great to hear from you.


+1 Great to hear from you Oleg. Your a-human-right website was responsible for my decision to purchase an M1 Garand years ago. Great to see you have made it to Calguns, (if in fact you are the real Oleg Volk and not an impostor hijacking the username).

Exile Machine: Love the rapid customer response! If I go that way, I was thinking of doing a Type I configuration. Based on my experiences with other rifles, I think I would like a raised cheek-weld relative to the stock. I just wonder if adding a reflex sight would raise it up too high. If one were to use such a sight, is Type I the best build?

Type I is my personal favorite config. The first photo below is very close to my current home defense setup (yes I run featureless even though I'm in a free state, big believer in manufacturers "eating their own dog food" and I just prefer a "wooden rifle hold" to a pistol grip hold.) I'm a big guy and I like the way the Type I lets me keep my head up high instead of scrunching my neck down to peer through the sights. It does not affect how a shooter will use reflex sights. Your cheek weld is in the same place, so the geometry of eyeball to sight is identical. I have used ordinary red dot and EOTech sights with this setup and it's just not been an issue.

https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/images/T/TYPE_I.JPG
(Stock pinned for CA compliance)

https://exilemachine.net/images/IMG_7465.JPG
Shouldering the Type I config

-Mark

Doctor Suarez
05-01-2012, 10:14 AM
Thanks again, Exile. Looks like a great way to go. And may I say that we Californians appreciate that your company is looking out for us. I was looking into building a featureless AR years ago, and it was a desert out there. Weird-looking products that were scarcely available, just a mess. Your system seems to be the best simply because its focus is so narrow and it's so modular. Well done!

Oleg also got me to get a Garand. I've since over-modded it, turning it into more of a DMR, but it does that job beautifully. In addition, Oleg and former blogger Kim du Toit were primarily responsible for turning me from a gun-fearing wussy into a gun-loving nutball, and I consider that a massive upgrade.

bombadillo
05-01-2012, 11:19 AM
My .02c is to say buy a rifle kit from PSA for $549, buy a lower for $79.99, and grab a carry handle or MBUS for $50. You will have a solid rifle for around $775-800 and worry about optics later. I literally did just that but spent wa few more pennies on extras, a hammer forged barrel, and.trigger guard. I bought an optisan mamba 1-4x scope with bdc for $150 with mount. With an FN barrel, optics, BUIS, and extras including sling I'm still under a grand. I will add 2 piece drop-in handguards later.

Doctor Suarez
05-01-2012, 12:20 PM
My .02c is to say buy a rifle kit from PSA for $549, buy a lower for $79.99, and grab a carry handle or MBUS for $50. You will have a solid rifle for around $775-800 and worry about optics later. I literally did just that but spent wa few more pennies on extras, a hammer forged barrel, and.trigger guard. I bought an optisan mamba 1-4x scope with bdc for $150 with mount. With an FN barrel, optics, BUIS, and extras including sling I'm still under a grand. I will add 2 piece drop-in handguards later.

Wise man. I was just looking at doing almost exactly that. The only difference is that Del-Ton appears to run the same kind of deal, except they offer the add-ons I need, including the ACE entry stock, so I wouldn't have to pin the included stock or throw it out/replace it. Del-Ton is also cheaper.

However, they appear to be out of stock on EVERYTHING except really fringe stuff. Freakin' politics.

maddoggie13
05-01-2012, 12:23 PM
M1A...

Fadedline
05-01-2012, 12:26 PM
Personally prefer Saiga's over the mini. I sold my mini 14 to fund a Saiga build. Oh and 5.45x39 ftw! :D

Doctor Suarez
05-01-2012, 12:31 PM
M1A...

I already have a rifle doing that job. A scout Garand. This is for light, small, quick-handling gear. I gotta have something to match me to my wife's M1 Carbine!

axhoaxho
05-01-2012, 2:17 PM
Another vote for a new Mini-14.