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View Full Version : Living with firearms next to a school.


Fizz
03-09-2012, 6:11 PM
... and the kicker is the Land Lord is a police officer.

A friend of mine needs to move, I want to move. He found a place that's pretty nice and the rent's reasonable (as much as it can be in this state/city anyway).

However, it's in the College area of San Diego and within 1000 feet of a School.

The land lord also happens to be a campus police officer for a different University about 10 miles away.

Just curious what potential 2A implications to owning firearms within 1000ft and having a police officer as a land lord.

I'm feeling wary of it as it is, but since I can't articulate specific reasons for why my due diligence should be to research this a bit further.

goober
03-09-2012, 6:26 PM
what kind of school?
college doesn't count for GFSZ, only K-12.
also GFSZ has exemptions for having firearms within your residence w/in 1000' of a school.
can make transporting your guns or even just taking them outside your home a hassle, but they can't keep you from owning them.
most colleges have their own rules against having firearms, so as long as the place is not on actual college campus property, you're fine.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Gun_Free_School_Zones for more info

stix213
03-09-2012, 6:48 PM
If you're within a GFSZ, then all GFSZ rules apply when you step out your front door.

Jeepergeo
03-09-2012, 6:52 PM
On the landlord issue only, listen to that warning buzzer in your brain.

Fizz
03-09-2012, 6:54 PM
what kind of school?
college doesn't for GFSZ, only K-12.
also GFSZ has exemptions for having firearms within your residence w/in 1000' of a school.
can make transporting your guns or even just taking them outside your home a hassle, but they can't keep you from owning them.
most colleges have their own rules against having firearms, so as long as the place is not on actual college campus property, you're fine.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Gun_Free_School_Zones for more info

It's in the College area, but next to a K-12 school.

My concern wouldn't be so much being convicted of a crime, it would mostly be me taking a trip to the station at all and have to prove that where I was possessing of an 'unsecured' firearm was my property or being victim of police ignorance.

Fizz
03-09-2012, 7:04 PM
If you're within a GFSZ, then all GFSZ rules apply when you step out your front door.

Do you literally mean door or do you mean property line?

As I understand the GFSZ, it exempts private property. Though, I agree, having to prove that in court is a lot different than not being arrested at all on that basis.

BayAreaShooter
03-09-2012, 7:15 PM
Do you literally mean door or do you mean property line?

As I understand the GFSZ, it exempts private property. Though, I agree, having to prove that in court is a lot different than not being arrested at all on that basis.

Unless you have a fence around your property I believe once you step out of your door your in a GFSZ. I could be wrong, but im sure someone will clear it up soon enough.

lhecker51
03-09-2012, 7:41 PM
Do you literally mean door or do you mean property line?

As I understand the GFSZ, it exempts private property. Though, I agree, having to prove that in court is a lot different than not being arrested at all on that basis.

You can carry a loaded firearm in your house and gated backyard. If your front yard is not fenced, you cannot carry even though it is on your property. I just went through this with the Corona Police department about a year and a half back. The reason for the front yard non-fenced rule is that it is considered a public area unless you fence it off. I too live in a GFSZ and have been informed that my guns must be in locked cases when I go from my front door to my car. Anything short of that is in violation. I initially thought that I was clear of the GFSZ but was informed that they measure from the property line of the school; not the center. A neighbor that has now moved had called the police to report me for carrying uncased guns to my SUV. Apparently they new the law better than I did. I sure wished they would have talked to me first though. I was not charged, but given a warning to comply.

lhecker51
03-09-2012, 7:43 PM
Unless you have a fence around your property I believe once you step out of your door your in a GFSZ. I could be wrong, but im sure someone will clear it up soon enough.

You are 100% correct.

NotEnufGarage
03-09-2012, 7:57 PM
I live 500' from an elementary school, so everything goes in a locked case before it leaves the house, except for my LTC weapon. It's a PITA, but oh well..

nssurge
03-09-2012, 10:11 PM
You can carry a loaded firearm in your house and gated backyard. If your front yard is not fenced, you cannot carry even though it is on your property. I just went through this with the Corona Police department about a year and a half back. The reason for the front yard non-fenced rule is that it is considered a public area unless you fence it off. I too live in a GFSZ and have been informed that my guns must be in locked cases when I go from my front door to my car. Anything short of that is in violation. I initially thought that I was clear of the GFSZ but was informed that they measure from the property line of the school; not the center. A neighbor that has now moved had called the police to report me for carrying uncased guns to my SUV. Apparently they new the law better than I did. I sure wished they would have talked to me first though. I was not charged, but given a warning to comply.

Lucky they moved, that is not someone I would not like to live near.


But regarding GFSZ, I don't understand why this is even an issue. Why is it so hard for people to comprehend that a law abiding gun owner driving their cased but not locked firearm on a road through the area around a school represents no risk to those kids? They must be stuck in some fairy-tale land where criminals obey all the laws.

Fizz
03-09-2012, 10:28 PM
I was not charged, but given a warning to comply.

I'm betting you would have been had the cop seen you or the neighbor had video/photos. IMO the only time people aren't charged, esp. For firearms violations in CA is when they don't have enough evidence to convict.

I don't need to move but the place is pretty nice; though not worth living in a legal mine field.

Squid
03-09-2012, 11:19 PM
and "urinating in public" IIRC.

Sort of related to people being able to set on your property and knock on your door without fear of Trespassing charges.

Not sure about houses with those high gated front yards with a buzzer at the front gate, or how high the gate would need to be to qualify as 'not in public'.

But you can still order someone 'off the property'.

Decoligny
03-09-2012, 11:54 PM
This is one instance where even the cops get it wrong.
The "public area" cluase is in the PC concerning loaded firearms. The case law that references the fenced in front yard not being a public area dealt with a person having a loaded handgun in his fenced in front yard.

PC 626.9 simply has an exemption for "on private property". It doesn't mention "public area".

I know Theseus got popped for a 626.9 violation that was technically on "private property", but that was a luandry parking lot, not his own front yard.

Squid
03-10-2012, 2:57 AM
believe you are also required to carry guns in locked box in a vehicle.

Lets also remember unless you are damn near "brandishing" the gun no one will know you are carrying it in your back pack or whatever.

I'm am now a little worried because I've got a Exposed Firearm guard permit and didn't even hear about this law till reading this site today.

I'll probably get a brief case with 3 wheel combo lock, no biggie.

I did notice this law has no exception for "legitimate self defense" use which is troubling.

As far as LL being a 'cop' my experience is 90% chance that will work in your favor as cops feel they are above the law, and even transfer that to any friends or associates. I've always been amazed how "small" and "tight" the LE community is and provided you don't 'act a fool' with your guns don't be surprised if some random cop recognizes you and cuts you slack for being Officer So and So's renters/friends.

Of course, if the LL/renter relationship 'goes bad' you might be in for extra crap but once you move out I wouldn't worry. Just do standard rental precautions like take before and after pics.

morrcarr67
03-10-2012, 7:01 AM
what kind of school?
college doesn't count for GFSZ, only K-12.
also GFSZ has exemptions for having firearms within your residence w/in 1000' of a school.
can make transporting your guns or even just taking them outside your home a hassle, but they can't keep you from owning them.
most colleges have their own rules against having firearms, so as long as the place is not on actual college campus property, you're fine.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Gun_Free_School_Zones for more info

Right. Not only do I own firearms I also have an 03 C&R FFL and I live w/in 1000 feet of an Historic High School. No problems what so ever.

Librarian
03-10-2012, 11:24 AM
I'm am now a little worried because I've got a Exposed Firearm guard permit and didn't even hear about this law till reading this site today.


If you're in uniform and going to or from work, you are exempted.

PC 626.92 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/626.92.html) Section 626.9 does not apply to or affect any of the
following:
(a) A security guard authorized to openly carry an unloaded
handgun pursuant to Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 26350) of
Division 5 of Title 4 of Part 6.
(b) An honorably retired peace officer authorized to openly carry
an unloaded handgun pursuant to Section 26361.

clbshooter
03-10-2012, 11:40 AM
Make sure you read the lease a couple of times. In most leases I have had the landlord is entitled to inspect the property. Not sure about here in Ca., as I just moved here but was in leases I signed on east coast. I am in the same boat as you (live near a school) I just back my vehicle into the garage and then load.

Warrior King
03-10-2012, 7:02 PM
California law only applies to hand guns but Federal applies to long guns also with respect to transporting. Since open carry has been banned for hand guns for hand gun owners the entire state is now a school zone unless I'm missing something because this provision exempts concealed carry permit holders.

223556
03-10-2012, 7:05 PM
I think the GFSZ is a BS law, pointless...and its a FACT!

CAHighSierra
03-10-2012, 7:13 PM
Its just another charge to tack onto gang bangers when busted with firearms...

Warrior King
03-10-2012, 7:42 PM
I think the GFSZ is a BS law, pointless...and its a FACT!

The law was drafted by a chimpanzee consulting with a baboon.

goober
03-10-2012, 8:05 PM
California law only applies to hand guns...

WHAT? :eek:
Can you please show me where in the CA PC it says this?
Otherwise please do not spread misinformation.


ETA apparently i was mistaken. :o
apologies to WK.

Librarian
03-10-2012, 8:14 PM
WHAT? :eek:
Can you please show me where in the CA PC it says this?
Otherwise please do not spread misinformation.

CA GFSZ law indeed applies only to handguns - doesn't speak to long guns at all. Federal version also covers long guns.
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Gun_Free_School_Zones

goober
03-10-2012, 8:43 PM
WHAT? :eek:
Can you please show me where in the CA PC it says this?
Otherwise please do not spread misinformation.


ETA apparently i was mistaken. :o
apologies to WK.

CA GFSZ law indeed applies only to handguns - doesn't speak to long guns at all. Federal version also covers long guns.
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Gun_Free_School_Zones

thanks Librarian... I had forgotten that the definition of "firearm" in PC 12001 is all about handguns.

Warrior King
03-10-2012, 10:35 PM
WHAT? :eek:
Can you please show me where in the CA PC it says this?
Otherwise please do not spread misinformation.


ETA apparently i was mistaken. :o
apologies to WK.

Discussion is all good and healthy.

By the way can local police enforce the federal law or would it only be the FBI or ATF charging you on long guns? Meaning the Feds can not (or will not bother) to enforce this in most cases on the local level?

Fizz
03-11-2012, 12:30 AM
I would imagine a majority of Federal cases begin prosecution with local enforcement. Though, as you mention feds may exercise discretion in what they carry to court.

Fizz
03-11-2012, 12:46 AM
Make sure you read the lease a couple of times. In most leases I have had the landlord is entitled to inspect the property. Not sure about here in Ca., as I just moved here but was in leases I signed on east coast. I am in the same boat as you (live near a school) I just back my vehicle into the garage and then load.

They are entitled to inspect with notice.

However I think that raises a legitimate concern. Can a land lords inspection rights and findings during that search be used as official evidence in a court of law if the LL is LEO?

I'm going to expect that the answer is yes as you consent to the search during the agreement.

My feeling is that this land lord relationship could side step unwarranted search protections.

I'm not planning on commiting any crimes, though there's probably plenty of crimes we all commit regularly that we aren't even aware of. I'd hate to unknowingly implicate myself in a crime due to the relationship.

oldsmoboat
03-11-2012, 7:34 AM
...
By the way can local police enforce the federal law ...
I asked that question in the LE forum. It was ignored.

ar15robert
03-11-2012, 1:21 PM
I live in a gfsz as well.Never been a problem silence is golden.If i go for a weekend trip i back my camper to my rear fence and load it up.I prefer to not walk to the driveway in open view of anyone.I dont like to advertise i have firearms outside.

NoJoke
03-11-2012, 2:31 PM
Hypothetical:

Suppose your home is well within the 1000' foot radius. Suppose you discharged your self defense weapon one night when you were being attacked w/in your home. Would you be guilty of something discharging a weapon w/in a GFSZ? ...even if your self defense was reasonable and upheld?

Fizz
03-11-2012, 3:20 PM
Hypothetical:

Suppose your home is well within the 1000' foot radius. Suppose you discharged your self defense weapon one night when you were being attacked w/in your home. Would you be guilty of something discharging a weapon w/in a GFSZ? ...even if your self defense was reasonable and upheld?

I would think that'd be exactly the scope of DC v. Heller/McDonald v. Chicago. The Supreme Court precedence of the right to self defense via firearms within the home would be fundamentally in conflict with the idea that exercising that right is also a crime.

The exemption for private property may also apply directly.

tabrisnet
03-11-2012, 3:21 PM
Self-defense is an affirmative defense. This means that generally the burden is on the defendant as to if it was self-defense. Yes, the burden remains on the state as to overall guilt, but remember, you're basically saying "I did it, but..."

This is significantly different vs a negating defense, which claims you did not do it, often by lack of means or opportunity (an alibi as to where you were). Pray you're never in a case where you had both means and opportunity, but only lacked motive... DAs love those.



Charges can be brought regardless (up to the DA as to if he thinks it's worth his office's time).

A little background here (and IANAL): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_defense (Wikipedia: Affirmative Defense)

dieselpower
03-11-2012, 3:29 PM
They are entitled to inspect with notice.

However I think that raises a legitimate concern. Can a land lords inspection rights and findings during that search be used as official evidence in a court of law if the LL is LEO?

I'm going to expect that the answer is yes as you consent to the search during the agreement.

My feeling is that this land lord relationship could side step unwarranted search protections.

I'm not planning on committing any crimes, though there's probably plenty of crimes we all commit regularly that we aren't even aware of. I'd hate to unknowingly implicate myself in a crime due to the relationship.


Yes. All illegal activity identified by the LL is subject to legal proceedings. The fact he is an LEO will factor into it, but don't think because he's an LEO he is somehow legally bound by some Catholic Priest code of silence..... The lease will have three areas of concern for you.
1) prohibited items and behavior
2) Emergency access rights
3) Inspection/ maintenance access rights

CessnaDriver
03-11-2012, 3:51 PM
Even if you don't live in a school zone, which I do, good idea to lock everything up is my view, who knows, you get pullled over in a school zone and Rosco P. Coltrane get's to have a fun time with you.

a90cal
03-11-2012, 3:59 PM
The law was drafted by a chimpanzee consulting with a baboon.

Feinstein and Pelosi?


I am here only to amuse you and insult your intelligence!

el chivo
03-12-2012, 3:02 PM
Hypothetical:

Suppose your home is well within the 1000' foot radius. Suppose you discharged your self defense weapon one night when you were being attacked w/in your home. Would you be guilty of something discharging a weapon w/in a GFSZ? ...even if your self defense was reasonable and upheld?


and school is not in session? Does this make a difference? It does with the speed limit, speed limit does not apply after hours.

Librarian
03-12-2012, 3:08 PM
Hypothetical:

Suppose your home is well within the 1000' foot radius. Suppose you discharged your self defense weapon one night when you were being attacked w/in your home. Would you be guilty of something discharging a weapon w/in a GFSZ? ...even if your self defense was reasonable and upheld?

GFSZ is a 'possession' restriction, not a 'use' restriction.

626.9 (c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or
place of business or
on private property,
if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession
of the firearm is otherwise lawful.

Inside your own home, no problem associated with GFSZ.

Fizz
03-12-2012, 3:25 PM
^^^ This is why I'm not a lawyer and also why I love the 5th. :laugh:

dlichterman
03-30-2012, 10:01 PM
Sorry to bump this after a few weeks, but I think I am in the exact situation you are talking about. There is a school nearby, and I recently(last month) purchased my first rifle(a 10/22) and today purchased a handgun. I think I might be within 1000 feet of the local school if you go "as the crow flies". Does this mean is it legal to have an unlocked weapon in my house, but if I want to leave my house I need to lock it in a case(federal includes all guns, CA only handguns), not just a lock on the gun itself? Seems kinda stupid that I would need to lock my gun up to drive the 100 feet away from my house to be out of the school zone. I drive a scion xB so no trunk.

Librarian
03-30-2012, 10:27 PM
Sorry to bump this after a few weeks, but I think I am in the exact situation you are talking about. There is a school nearby, and I recently(last month) purchased my first rifle(a 10/22) and today purchased a handgun. I think I might be within 1000 feet of the local school if you go "as the crow flies".

Does this mean is it legal to have an unlocked weapon in my house,

but if I want to leave my house I need to lock it in a case(federal includes all guns, CA only handguns), not just a lock on the gun itself?

Seems kinda stupid that I would need to lock my gun up to drive the 100 feet away from my house to be out of the school zone. I drive a scion xB so no trunk.

Yes, that's exactly what it means. A lock that fits on the gun itself has no value the second you walk out of the gun store after picking up your gun.

But, unless you have LTC, you have to lock up your handguns anyway - open carry of handguns is illegal in most populated areas since Jan 1 this year.

dlichterman
03-30-2012, 10:29 PM
Yes, that's exactly what it means. A lock that fits on the gun itself has no value the second you walk out of the gun store after picking up your gun.


Damn, that's what I thought. So lets say I have it in a hard case, and throw a master lock on it- is it then legal even though you could smash the plastic case open? Seems kinda pointless......


But, unless you have LTC, you have to lock up your handguns anyway - open carry of handguns is illegal in most populated areas since Jan 1 this year.

I don't plan on open carry - just being able to get to the range or the desert without breaking the law.

nothing4u
03-30-2012, 10:54 PM
You are 100% correct.

How high does the fence have to be ?

Librarian
03-30-2012, 11:03 PM
Damn, that's what I thought. So lets say I have it in a hard case, and throw a master lock on it- is it then legal even though you could smash the plastic case open? Seems kinda pointless......


I don't plan on open carry - just being able to get to the range or the desert without breaking the law.

Law says locked case for transport, so there you are; we often see complaints that there are no standards for that. Advice: pick something you are pretty sure a cop will not laugh at if the question comes up. See also http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1711983&postcount=22 for a semi-serious proposal and the wiki for details -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting

As to 'open carry', at this point 'not in a locked case' is 'open carry' for handguns; laid on the seat next to you, unloaded, is 'open carry'. That used to be legal, except in school zones (which made it highly impractical inside cities).

lhecker51
03-30-2012, 11:37 PM
How high does the fence have to be ?

Not sure. If it is recognizable as a fence and has a gate, then I think you would be fine.