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View Full Version : Risk to use large-capacity mags for CCW?


imabird
03-08-2012, 2:27 PM
Lots of ifs and what ifs and take apart and use out of state, blah, blah, blah...

The real question IS if I carry and use a 13 round magazine in my Browning Hi-Power in a concealed carry situation am I at any further legal risk than if I use a 10 round magazine?

zum
03-08-2012, 5:34 PM
Lots of ifs and what ifs and take apart and use out of state, blah, blah, blah...

The real question IS if I carry and use a 13 round magazine in my Browning Hi-Power in a concealed carry situation am I at any further legal risk than if I use a 10 round magazine?

if you sit down with yourself for long enough im sure you could answer this question yourself. just remember your in California.

when CCW you need to follow the laws! Use 10 round mags, Stay away from reloads of any kind. Stick to factory ammo. Dont use home made hollow points. If you use hollow points find out what your local LE agency is using. Do not modify your CCW weapon (no hair triggers)

do not give any trial lawyer or DA anymore reasons to find you guilty. We can argue the law till we are blue in the face and even though we might understand the law, its loop holes and shortcomings, do not leave your freedom in the hands of a jury that might not.

locosway
03-08-2012, 6:21 PM
if you sit down with yourself for long enough im sure you could answer this question yourself. just remember your in California.

when CCW you need to follow the LAW! use 10 round mags. Stay away from reloads of any kind. Stick to factory ammo. Dont use home made hallow points. If you use hallow points find out what your local LE agency is using. Do not modify your CCW weapon (no hair triggers)

do not give any trial lawyer or DA anymore reasons to find you guilty. We can argue the law till we are blue in the face and even though we might understand the law and its loop holes, do not leave your freedom in the hands of a jury that might not.

Why use 10 round mags? There's no law against using larger, please don't spread FUD. And that goes for reloads, hollow points, etc. What's more important here in CA is following the requirements outlined by the issuing agency. If they restrict your carry habits to ammo brand XXX, or so on, then that's what you need to follow. Outside of that, there is no concrete evidence to lean one way or another.

If you're using the magazine lawfully, it's use will not be an issue. Civil trial may be a different story, but even with a 10 round magazine you could get hung out to dry. Bottom line, try and keep your nose clean and your mouth closed.

zum
03-08-2012, 6:45 PM
Why use 10 round mags? There's no law against using larger, please don't spread FUD. And that goes for reloads, hollow points, etc. What's more important here in CA is following the requirements outlined by the issuing agency. If they restrict your carry habits to ammo brand XXX, or so on, then that's what you need to follow. Outside of that, there is no concrete evidence to lean one way or another.

If you're using the magazine lawfully, it's use will not be an issue. Civil trial may be a different story, but even with a 10 round magazine you could get hung out to dry. Bottom line, try and keep your nose clean and your mouth closed.

not in anyway trying to spread FUD as i never cited any laws, but i can see how my post does read that way and for that i digress

i was merely conveying caution when CCW

BKinzey
03-08-2012, 7:38 PM
Part of your question comes down to a personal choice I think. They are legal to use so you should be good. But, that won't potentially stop a Prosecutor from trying to make you look bad by claiming "you crammed your firearm with as many rounds as you could and went looking for someone to shoot." :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Personally I'm on the side of I'm going to be concerned with giving myself the advantage in a gunfight over what might happen in a courtroom later. As long as it's legal for me to carry it, I will consider it. That includes firearm, magazines, caliber and type of ammo.

So it comes down to this:

Do ya feel luck punk? Well do ya?:cool2:

InGrAM
03-08-2012, 7:46 PM
As long as you acquired the magazines legally I would not worry. But, if you are paranoid to the point where it causes stress then just carry 10+1. Worrying about what a DA will do to you in a future that might never happen is not something you should be stressing over.

My point is, if you are comfortable carrying "high capacity" magazines in your HP then do it. If not, then don't. If it makes you feel better I carried a HP with regular capacity magazines for awhile, but I recently took it off my LTC due to weight issues with the HP. It was an excellent firearm for CC though, other than weight. Hope that helps.

stix213
03-08-2012, 7:47 PM
I can't think of any reason not to use legally owned large-capacity mags

Oceanbob
03-08-2012, 7:49 PM
Wrong....so wrong...please don't tell people this.

The law?

1. If you OWN a 13 round mag for your Browning Hi-power, go ahead and use it. It is not against the LAW to own and use any hi capacity magazine in California. (handgun)

2. A "DA" is not looking to frame you or depict you as a crazed-gun-nut. It's either a GOOD SHOOTING or NOT. If it is NOT a good shooting you have bigger problems than a 13 round magazine. :)

3. Modify away. Personally a lighter trigger might be a better choice for a well trained concealed carry permit holder. It is a matter of personal preference. Same for ammo selection. Carry what you desire. There is no law against Personal Defense Ammunition, so carry that if you want too.

4. I carry RELOADs in my Glock 29. No issues to worry about. They are in fact, 175 grain silvertips that I reload on my Dillon 550B. A bullet is a bullet.

5. You've earned that carry permit. Just be responsible in the use of that weapon and everything else will be just fine.

Take care
Bob








if you sit down with yourself for long enough im sure you could answer this question yourself. just remember your in California.

when CCW you need to follow the LAW! use 10 round mags. Stay away from reloads of any kind. Stick to factory ammo. Dont use home made hollow points. If you use hollow points find out what your local LE agency is using. Do not modify your CCW weapon (no hair triggers)

do not give any trial lawyer or DA anymore reasons to find you guilty. We can argue the law till we are blue in the face and even though we might understand the law and its loop holes, do not leave your freedom in the hands of a jury that might not.

hoffmang
03-08-2012, 7:58 PM
If it gives you any comfort I carry 17 rounds in my EDC weapon.

There is no law against it and in a good shoot situation, the number of rounds you can carry is very unlikely to be determinate of whether justice is done.

-Gene

zum
03-08-2012, 8:06 PM
If it gives you any comfort I carry 17 rounds in my EDC weapon.

-Gene

HOT DAMN good to know

G60
03-08-2012, 8:06 PM
use 10 round mags. Stay away from reloads of any kind. Stick to factory ammo. Dont use home made hollow points. If you use hollow points find out what your local LE agency is using. Do not modify your CCW weapon

Where do people come up with this stuff?

It's got to start somewhere.

vincewarde
03-08-2012, 8:24 PM
3. Modify away. Personally a lighter trigger might be a better choice for a well trained concealed carry permit holder. It is a matter of personal preference.

My county forbids ANY modifications AFTER the weapon is inspected. They specifically mention trigger pull and laser sights.


4. I carry RELOADs in my Glock 29. No issues to worry about. They are in fact, 175 grain silvertips that I reload on my Dillon 550B. A bullet is a bullet.

While there is nothing illegal about carrying reloads, most - if not all - prominent self-defense experts strongly recommend against it. Their reasoning is that it really complicates ballistic testing because you can't really prove that the rounds you didn't fire are the same as the ones you did.

This leaves you open to accusations that you used some "super-duper" destructive rounds you made up yourself. This kind of thing has been an issue in at least one criminal trial in which jurors later admitted they they voted to convict because of the ammo the shooter used. Thank God he was acquitted on appeal.

I also reload, and I would bet my life on them any day of the week - but my home defense loads are factory. If I do have to shoot someone, the less issues, the better.

TaxAnnihilator
03-08-2012, 8:33 PM
I tend to agree in the criminal law context. None of these is dispositive with respect to determining whether a shooting will be justified.

However, it seemed to me that the OP might have also been asking about civil liability, hence some posters stating that staying away from things that might give a jury pause in determining a wrongful death claim (if it gets there). So, it then becomes a personal preference as to what things you are comfortable doing that may be potential fodder for the plaintiff's attorney to drag your heroic efforts into question.

I, like you, say bring it on. Others apparently not so much.


If it gives you any comfort I carry 17 rounds in my EDC weapon.

There is no law against it and in a good shoot situation, the number of rounds you can carry is very unlikely to be determinate of whether justice is done.

-Gene

choprzrul
03-08-2012, 8:44 PM
You mean a standard capacity magazine (yes, 15 is std while 10 is sub-std)@ full capacity could be a problem in court? A 15 round mag carried by a policeman is what should be considered 'normal' for use for self defense. Why would you want to carry a sub-standard capacity magazine???

....dryness detector required....

.

Aldemar
03-08-2012, 8:48 PM
If it gives you any comfort I carry 17 rounds in my EDC weapon.

There is no law against it and in a good shoot situation, the number of rounds you can carry is very unlikely to be determinate of whether justice is done.

-Gene

Carrying 17 and only using 1 or 2 would probably work in your favor. Shows training and restraint.

hoffmang
03-08-2012, 8:55 PM
Carrying 17 and only using 1 or 2 would probably work in your favor. Shows training and restraint.

I would add, 1 or 2 per. One can not assume a single assailant...

-Gene

BrokerB
03-08-2012, 9:04 PM
i carry 15 in my old ruger p95dc - was Legal to buy all the 15 round mags i wanted then. Ccw instructor said i was legal tu use.

locosway
03-08-2012, 9:13 PM
Getting way off topic here, but I feel obliged to address these.

My county forbids ANY modifications AFTER the weapon is inspected. They specifically mention trigger pull and laser sights.


As I had previously mentioned, you should follow the restrictions on your carry permit. Now, if you had your trigger adjusted before inspection and they passed it, what's wrong with this?

What they care about is a safe firearm usually. Some issuing agencies will not allow any deviation from the factory, but if you tune your gun prior to their armorer inspecting it, and he passes it, what's the problem?


While there is nothing illegal about carrying reloads, most - if not all - prominent self-defense experts strongly recommend against it. Their reasoning is that it really complicates ballistic testing because you can't really prove that the rounds you didn't fire are the same as the ones you did.

This leaves you open to accusations that you used some "super-duper" destructive rounds you made up yourself. This kind of thing has been an issue in at least one criminal trial in which jurors later admitted they they voted to convict because of the ammo the shooter used. Thank God he was acquitted on appeal.

I also reload, and I would bet my life on them any day of the week - but my home defense loads are factory. If I do have to shoot someone, the less issues, the better.

What is a self defense expert and did they train in forensics? What makes a round you made different from a factory round? Is a bullet fired from my gun that I made going to have a different groove pattern on it than the one that was made in some factory?

These statements ALWAYS come up, but there's really nothing to back them up with. It's always, "Someone told me" or, "So and so says". There is nothing wrong with using your reloads.

BoxesOfLiberty
03-08-2012, 9:15 PM
My county forbids ANY modifications AFTER the weapon is inspected. They specifically mention trigger pull and laser sights.

That's a reasonable point. So a better statement might have been "modify away unless prohibited by your issuing authority".


While there is nothing illegal about carrying reloads, most - if not all - prominent self-defense experts strongly recommend against it. Their reasoning is that it really complicates ballistic testing because you can't really prove that the rounds you didn't fire are the same as the ones you did.

Their reasoning seems a little weak to me. After all, the same would hold true even if the ones I didn't fire appear to be factory rounds. They would have to perform metallurgical and tool-mark analyses of the spent casings to determine whether they had been previously fired ... and that's assuming they were reloads and not just handloads made using new components.

This kind of thing has been an issue in at least one criminal trial in which jurors later admitted they they voted to convict because of the ammo the shooter used.

This I would like to know more about. If anyone can cite the actual case, please do so. I would like to add it to my files.

ClarenceBoddicker
03-08-2012, 10:45 PM
Say your shooting was deemed lawful, would the DA/LE agency return your over 10 shot mag(s) or keep/destroy them as "contraband"? I have no idea, just wondering about that myself. Too bad there is not any CA DA's or employees on here.

locosway
03-08-2012, 10:53 PM
Say your shooting was deemed lawful, would the DA/LE agency return your over 10 shot mag(s) or keep/destroy them as "contraband"? I have no idea, just wondering about that myself. Too bad there is not any CA DA's or employees on here.

I don't know how much clearer people can make this.

THESE IS NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT HAVING A 10+ ROUND MAGAZINE.

If you ran someone over in self defense, would they remove your tires because they can go over 65mph?

This game of "what if" is getting silly. There is no law against possession.

vincewarde
03-08-2012, 10:56 PM
This I would like to know more about. If anyone can cite the actual case, please do so. I would like to add it to my files.

I'm sorry that I don't have time to lok it up now - but the case is the one out of AZ that caused a change in their self defense law. The shooter was literally a Boy Scout leader and the gun was a 10mm. Maybe this is enough for someone more familiar to point you in the right direction. If possible, I'll check back later.

BoxesOfLiberty
03-08-2012, 10:58 PM
I'm sorry that I don't have time to lok it up now - but the case is the one out of AZ that caused a change in their self defense law. The shooter was literally a Boy Scout leader and the gun was a 10mm. Maybe this is enough for someone more familiar to point you in the right direction. If possible, I'll check back later.

Thanks Vince!

That's enough for me to at least refine my search a little. Still, if someone has the info, please let me know.

Uriah02
03-08-2012, 11:05 PM
Must be nice to have preban mags...

SilverTauron
03-09-2012, 12:09 AM
The case is in reference to Harold Fish and his incident.

The link to his webpage is here :http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/


The core of the problem is this. The decision as to whether a shooting is justified will not lie with 12 people from one's favorite gun range. It will not lie with an assembly of internet gun gurus . It will not lie with Massad Ayoob or Guns and Ammo magazine.

It will be the exclusive responsibility of 12 of the most common folk the lawyers could agree to staff the jury bench. We being people of logic who hope for the best but plan for the worst.We hope never to use our weapons to defend ourselves, yet we visit the range and practice reloads at home and on the competition range to ensure that should that terrible moment take place for us that we are at the maximum of capability for dealing with a worst case scenario.

It would be negligent to not use this approach towards the American legal system. In a perfect world our jury of our peers would be 12 of the top shooters in the nation, but in a perfect world one would never be in the courtroom to start with. We carry firearms to prepare for an unlikely but terrible situation, and that situation doesn't end with holstering of the utilized firearm.

Like it or not, we live in an age where people make decisions based on hearsay and perception. As related to the 12 people who decide what your activities will be for the next 50 years or more of your life,since we cannot know their qualifications any more than we know whether or not we will be involved in a gunfight to begin with we must also assume the worst case scenario and prepare for it accordingly.

The worst case scenario is 12 gun hostile jurors who have been born and raised in an anti-firearms society who are being led down a path of easy and incorrect deduction by a District Attorney interested in a career enhancing victory at the expense of your freedom and estate.Court is an awful place to attempt to educate 12 people on the proper handling and useage of firearms, and I would contend that anyone whose future lies in the hands of a dozen liberals who get their firearm info from Die Hard 3 should take steps to ensure their legal survival in the aftermath. Such as using a 10 round magazine versus 13.

Insofar as the 'tactical' benefits of using more than ten rounds, the Illinois State Police found that their accuracy was the best with their 8 shot 9mm S&W semi-autos.

ClarenceBoddicker
03-09-2012, 2:01 AM
I don't know how much clearer people can make this.

THESE IS NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT HAVING A 10+ ROUND MAGAZINE.

If you ran someone over in self defense, would they remove your tires because they can go over 65mph?

This game of "what if" is getting silly. There is no law against possession.

Yes, I know that my $5000 (many bought at inflated 1994-1999 AWB prices) pre 2000 hi cap magazine, drum & belt collection is still legal for me to own in CA. I'm asking about what an upset DA or LE agency may do. A lot of LEO's & LE agencies are not happy about citizens owning guns, much less "hi cap" mags. I've heard horror stories about having to go to court to get guns returned that were used in lawful shootings.

Must be nice to have preban mags...

It wasn't too nice having to pay $50-$100+ for hi cap Glock mags that were like $15 before the 1994 AWB was signed. Check out some old issues of Shotgun News, Gun List, Machine Gun News or the Small Arms Review for the crazy prices back then. Before the lawsuit was won about the illegal pre 1994 made magazine importation ban, some mags were very hard to find at all.

SilverTauron
03-09-2012, 6:41 AM
Yes, I know that my $5000 (many bought at inflated 1994-1999 AWB prices) pre 2000 hi cap magazine, drum & belt collection is still legal for me to own in CA. I'm asking about what an upset DA or LE agency may do. A lot of LEO's & LE agencies are not happy about citizens owning guns, much less "hi cap" mags. I've heard horror stories about having to go to court to get guns returned that were used in lawful shootings.

.

If you use a weapon in a self defense situation, it would be practical to write that sucker off and buy another one. Police are not in the habit of returning firearms to owners under more or less any circumstance,some of whom have even defied court orders to return property.Bottom line, on the street if the cops don't want to return your weapon they will find reasons to avoid doing so.It doesn't matter whether the gun is a 1911 or a 17 round capacity Glock.

ALSystems
03-09-2012, 7:35 AM
Let's assume your self defense gun is designed to hold more than 10 rounds and your magazines were acquired legally.
For example, Browning Hi-power normally uses 13-Round magazines

I'll make a distinction for a CCW
(1) Use 10-Round CA magazines? Ok

(2) Use standard 13-Round magazines? Ok

(3) Use extended (not flush with bottom of grip) 15,20,25-Round Magazines?

Different Example: Registered RAW such as Calico 9mm handgun (M950) as CCW
(4) Use standard 50 or 100-Round Helical Feed magazine?


I think #3 and #4 gets you into a jury perception problem as "gun nut" Although I believe neither of these is illegal. I guess that depends on the your CCW restrictions. From a practical point of view, #4 might be difficult to conceal. ;)

Any comments on #3 or #4? :confused:

tzotzo
03-09-2012, 7:56 AM
what should worry the OP infinitely more are all the other legal issues of carrying CCW... how and when to use the weapon legally, and what could happen afterwards. A large cap mag is like the very least of your worries.

paul0660
03-09-2012, 8:11 AM
A large cap mag is like the very least of your worries.

Yep. And if #13 stops the threat, it was a great idea to have it.

NotEnufGarage
03-09-2012, 8:56 AM
Use the mags that came with your gun when you bought it and no more.

Ie. I have a Glock17 with 17rd mags. I also have a Glock 26 with 10rd mags. The G17 mags fit and function in the G26, but I don't think it would be smart to carry it that way. While not criminally restricted, it wouldn't bode well in a civil trial of wrongful death filed by the recently departed's family.

Not worth giving some plaintiffs attorney any more "ammo" than neccessary.

paul0660
03-09-2012, 9:10 AM
Use the mags that came with your gun when you bought it and no more.

Ie. I have a Glock17 with 17rd mags. I also have a Glock 26 with 10rd mags. The G17 mags fit and function in the G26, but I don't think it would be smart to carry it that way. While not criminally restricted, it wouldn't bode well in a civil trial of wrongful death filed by the recently departed's family.

Not worth giving some plaintiffs attorney any more "ammo" than neccessary.

This makes zero sense.

lhecker51
03-09-2012, 9:41 AM
Say your shooting was deemed lawful, would the DA/LE agency return your over 10 shot mag(s) or keep/destroy them as "contraband"? I have no idea, just wondering about that myself. Too bad there is not any CA DA's or employees on here.

I will ask my sister this evening. She is a Dep DA for ******* County in SoCal.

Should anyone need a DA's perspective, I can bring it up with her with the caveat that she will know I am posting the response to a public forum. She may not wish me to post publicly, so the answer may be in a private message if that. I'm sure you will understand that she has a job to do and I do not want to put her career at risk for any sensitive questions that are not already a public position of the DA's office.

Admins, I know you have the ability to see my personal info and connect the dots and already trust that you respect it. My only reservation about sending even a PM would be if the forum owner could be compelled by court order to release info which I believe they can, so I will tread with caution.

The question that is being asked is innocent enough that I do not think there will be a problem.

paul0660
03-09-2012, 9:47 AM
Standard caps can't be confiscated as contraband, because they are not illegal.

They can be confiscated as a "nuisance".

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=503489

IGOTDIRT4U
03-09-2012, 9:50 AM
if you sit down with yourself for long enough im sure you could answer this question yourself. just remember your in California.

when CCW you need to follow the laws! Use 10 round mags, Stay away from reloads of any kind. Stick to factory ammo. Dont use home made hollow points. If you use hollow points find out what your local LE agency is using. Do not modify your CCW weapon (no hair triggers)

do not give any trial lawyer or DA anymore reasons to find you guilty. We can argue the law till we are blue in the face and even though we might understand the law and its loop holes, do not leave your freedom in the hands of a jury that might not.

Very good advice, and would be applicable even out of state. Just because another state is more gun friendly than CA, doesn't mean the jury will be as well.

hvengel
03-09-2012, 10:07 AM
Let's assume your self defense gun is designed to hold more than 10 rounds and your magazines were acquired legally.
For example, Browning Hi-power normally uses 13-Round magazines

...

(3) Use extended (not flush with bottom of grip) 15,20,25-Round Magazines?

...

I have 15 round after market mags for my BHP that are flush with the bottom grip (IE. are the exact same size as a 13 round factory mag). Is using these a questionable self defense configuration? IMHO I don't think so.

jb7706
03-09-2012, 10:08 AM
Getting way off topic here, but I feel obliged to address these.

What they care about is a safe firearm usually. Some issuing agencies will not allow any deviation from the factory, but if you tune your gun prior to their armorer inspecting it, and he passes it, what's the problem?

Screwing with trigger pull CAN get you in trouble with a jury. Esp when if, say Glock, publicly says "anything less than 5 lbs for our gun is unsafe." Pretty arrogant to assume you know more about the gun than the designer, the jury will hear that loud and clear.

No law against it, but still not a good idea.

What is a self defense expert and did they train in forensics? What makes a round you made different from a factory round? Is a bullet fired from my gun that I made going to have a different groove pattern on it than the one that was made in some factory?


These statements ALWAYS come up, but there's really nothing to back them up with. It's always, "Someone told me" or, "So and so says". There is nothing wrong with using your reloads.

Google Massad Ayoob. Cases have turned bad for the shooter when reloads were at issue. In one the crime lab found a fired case marked with Winchester head stamp. When powder residue on the dead wife didn't match the the performance of factory ammo her death was ruled a homicide, not suicide as the husband claimed. The crime lab did not run any tests on his ammo that would have cleared the guy and the judge ruled they did not have to. Dude went to jail. (I left a lot of details out, but Google about a bit and you will find it.)

Carry whatever you want but I'll pay $1/round for factory to help keep my tail out of jail.

Scottie15
03-09-2012, 10:52 AM
More thread drift to shooting reloads here...

Here is the link to the homicide-suicide case Ayoob consulted on:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/

Articles with a brief discussion of criminal trial issues and touching on civil liablilities with Extra Deadly Reloads (oh no! - “Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you,”):

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_51/ai_n11840291/?tag=content;col1
This is a valid concern in the post-shoot civil trial world, especially if faced with an anti-gun courtroom. Also, discussed are issues with re-constructing a crime scene using shooting distance and powder burns.

After reading these articles a few years ago, I'd rather drop $50 on a couple boxes of SD ammo every year than have to deal with any more drama or liability if involved in a shoot. That and those new cases just look so shiny in a topped off standard cap. magazine...

BoxesOfLiberty
03-09-2012, 1:57 PM
The case is in reference to Harold Fish and his incident.

The link to his webpage is here :http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/


The core of the problem is this. The decision as to whether a shooting is justified will not lie with 12 people from one's favorite gun range. It will not lie with an assembly of internet gun gurus . It will not lie with Massad Ayoob or Guns and Ammo magazine.

It will be the exclusive responsibility of 12 of the most common folk the lawyers could agree to staff the jury bench. We being people of logic who hope for the best but plan for the worst.We hope never to use our weapons to defend ourselves, yet we visit the range and practice reloads at home and on the competition range to ensure that should that terrible moment take place for us that we are at the maximum of capability for dealing with a worst case scenario.

It would be negligent to not use this approach towards the American legal system. In a perfect world our jury of our peers would be 12 of the top shooters in the nation, but in a perfect world one would never be in the courtroom to start with. We carry firearms to prepare for an unlikely but terrible situation, and that situation doesn't end with holstering of the utilized firearm.

Like it or not, we live in an age where people make decisions based on hearsay and perception. As related to the 12 people who decide what your activities will be for the next 50 years or more of your life,since we cannot know their qualifications any more than we know whether or not we will be involved in a gunfight to begin with we must also assume the worst case scenario and prepare for it accordingly.

The worst case scenario is 12 gun hostile jurors who have been born and raised in an anti-firearms society who are being led down a path of easy and incorrect deduction by a District Attorney interested in a career enhancing victory at the expense of your freedom and estate.Court is an awful place to attempt to educate 12 people on the proper handling and useage of firearms, and I would contend that anyone whose future lies in the hands of a dozen liberals who get their firearm info from Die Hard 3 should take steps to ensure their legal survival in the aftermath. Such as using a 10 round magazine versus 13.

Insofar as the 'tactical' benefits of using more than ten rounds, the Illinois State Police found that their accuracy was the best with their 8 shot 9mm S&W semi-autos.

Thank you for the link and the thoughtful response.

nicki
03-09-2012, 3:26 PM
It is legal for you to have your pre ban mags, the issue iscan they cause you unneeded grief.

In the counties that issue ccw permits this is probably a non issue, but if you happen to be in a county where you are dealing with a blantly anti gun DA, expect any self defense shooting to be subject to extra review.

The issue with having an over 10 round magazine in your carry gun is suddenly your carry pistol can be portrayed as an assault pistol.

Bear in mind that a bigger problem is not criminal trials, but potential BS civil suits filed by the POS who you shot.

This is why I like a Colt 45. It is. An old style gun, carries 9 rounds, uses a low velocity, less penetrating round and because it has alot of stopping power, I probably will have less shots needed, 3 shoot do it.

Nicki

BKinzey
03-09-2012, 3:56 PM
Massad Ayoob has his own controversies with other experts on what he recommends. Google "Massad Aboob".

wildhawker
03-09-2012, 4:05 PM
Esp when if, say Glock, publicly says "anything less than 5 lbs for our gun is unsafe."

Glock regularly markets factory firearms having trigger pulls of less than 5lb, as do countless other manufacturers.

-Brandon

jb7706
03-09-2012, 6:21 PM
Glock regularly markets factory firearms having trigger pulls of less than 5lb, as do countless other manufacturers.

-Brandon

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_50/ai_n6209982/
Glock sells the 3.5-pound connector only with the 6-inch barreled longslide target pistols and in the Tactical/Practical series with 5.3-inch barrels. These are respectively the Glock 17L and 34 in 9mm Luger and the G24 and G35 in .40 S&W. There is a long history of Glock factory literature adamantly stating that these trigger pulls are for competition, not duty or defensive carry. Every American police department that I know of which has adopted the G34 or G35 for issue has fielded it with a heavier trigger pull.

In his class he goes on to talk about 1911's and other guns with lighter pulls. The logic basically followed that pull weights will follow the gun design, and in any type of gun there is a floor under which the trigger has crossed into questionable status. Glock was specifically called out due to the literature referenced above.

wildhawker
03-09-2012, 6:24 PM
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_50/ai_n6209982/

So a Glock with a 4.5lb pull is less safe than my Wilson carry piece with a 4.5lb pull?

These are going to be facts in dispute at trial. This is what experts and lawyers are for.

-Brandon

ClarenceBoddicker
03-09-2012, 6:37 PM
Maybe an LEO can answer these questions: If you used a Glock with an aftermarket trigger connector to shoot an intruder who broke into your house, then before you called 911, you replaced the aftermarket connector with the factory one, is that "tampering" with evidence or some other "crime"? If you replaced your aftermarket trigger connector with the 10# NYPD extra heavy trigger connector, would that make your shooting extra legal in the eyes of LE, or does that logic only work one way?

zum
03-09-2012, 6:40 PM
These are going to be facts in dispute at trial. This is what experts and lawyers are for.

-Brandon

if you promise me in writing that you will see to it that all my legal expenses are taken care of in a self defense situation involving a modified fire arm with hi-cap mags, i'd love you forever :tt1: :kiss:

because with that id have the piece of mind to actually modify the LC9's ALLdamnDAY trigger pull :toetap05: haha

Connor P Price
03-09-2012, 7:01 PM
Maybe an LEO can answer these questions: If you used a Glock with an aftermarket trigger connector to shoot an intruder who broke into your house, then before you called 911, you replaced the aftermarket connector with the factory one, is that "tampering" with evidence or some other "crime"? If you replaced your aftermarket trigger connector with the 10# NYPD extra heavy trigger connector, would that make your shooting extra legal in the eyes of LE, or does that logic only work one way?

That would look immensely bad if they found out that you had modified the gun in between firing it and the police arriving. You should make every effort not to tamper with anything on the scene of a shooting, justified or otherwise.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

QuarterBoreGunner
03-09-2012, 7:08 PM
It makes my brain cry that we're still even discussing this magazine stuff.

Dead horse'd.

NotEnufGarage
03-09-2012, 7:31 PM
This makes zero sense.

I'm sorry you're unable to comprehend the civil court system and how it's pretty much a losing proposition for the defendant from the get-go. I'm not talking what's legal or not legal. I'm talking about what a plaintiffs attorney will do to you when the dead perps family sues you for wrongfully killing their baby and sole source of support.

Anything you do to "enhance" the lethality of a firearm that you use to defend yourself will be used against you by the plaintiffs attorney to convince a jury that you weren't just out to protect yourself by that you were itching to kill his deceased client. The jurys in this state will go along with that and everything you own will go to the dead perp's family.

Make sense, now?

I agree, it's not logical but neither is McDonalds having to pay $1 million to an idiot that put a hot cup of coffee between her legs.

Civil and criminal cases are very different. Criminal jurys have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil jurys only have to be convinced by a preponderance of the evidence, ie. 50.1%, basically. Carrying more ammo than the gun is designed for or larger magazines than came with the gun indicates you wanted to be sure whoever you shot would be dead.

That is how a lawyer would spin it to a jury. He would then bring out his momma, his babies, his baby momma's, etc. etc. etc. and they would all cry to the jury about what a wonderful person he was and how he was only stealing to be able to buy milk for his babies and so forth. The 12 people on the jury, not being smart enough to get out of jury duty will buy it, at least partially and they'll want to award his family something to ease their suffering.

It's not fair and it's not right, but it's the way it is. Best not to tempt fate.

If you're such a bad shot or can't control your emotions such that you can't defend yourself with 11 rounds (1+10 in the mag), and change a mag in a second or two, you probably shouldn't be relying on a gun to defend yourself. You need to develop another strategy.

NotEnufGarage
03-09-2012, 7:37 PM
Maybe an LEO can answer these questions: If you used a Glock with an aftermarket trigger connector to shoot an intruder who broke into your house, then before you called 911, you replaced the aftermarket connector with the factory one, is that "tampering" with evidence or some other "crime"? If you replaced your aftermarket trigger connector with the 10# NYPD extra heavy trigger connector, would that make your shooting extra legal in the eyes of LE, or does that logic only work one way?

Yes, that would be tampering with evidence.


Remember, folks, we're the "Law Abiding Gun Owners". In a home invasion we already presumably have the advantage of knowing our weapon, knowing our terrain, we should know that our family members are already safely hidden away from immediate harm and we should be well practiced at hitting what it is we intend to protect ourselves from.

Practice your shooting, have a home invasion drill, make sure your 13yr old daughter isn't going to cling to you for reassurance when you need to be free to move to get between those you love and those that would harm you.

Also, isn't it something like 99% of all incidents where a firearm is used to thwart and attack don't even require discharging the weapon? You want to jepordize everything you own for the added advantage of a lighter trigger or 3 more rounds in the mag? Not worth it in my opinion.

QuarterBoreGunner
03-09-2012, 7:40 PM
You're making some very absolute statements there; I think you're forgetting a key piece though by not prefacing some of them with:

"In my opinion..."

I'm sorry you're unable to comprehend the civil court system and how it's pretty much a losing proposition for the defendant from the get-go. I'm not talking what's legal or not legal. I'm talking about what a plaintiffs attorney will do to you when the dead perps family sues you for wrongfully killing their baby and sole source of support.

Anything you do to "enhance" the lethality of a firearm that you use to defend yourself will be used against you by the plaintiffs attorney to convince a jury that you weren't just out to protect yourself by that you were itching to kill his deceased client. The jurys in this state will go along with that and everything you own will go to the dead perp's family.

Make sense, now?

I agree, it's not logical but neither is McDonalds having to pay $1 million to an idiot that put a hot cup of coffee between her legs.

Civil and criminal cases are very different. Criminal jurys have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil jurys only have to be convinced by a preponderance of the evidence, ie. 50.1%, basically. Carrying more ammo than the gun is designed for or larger magazines than came with the gun indicates you wanted to be sure whoever you shot would be dead.

That is how a lawyer would spin it to a jury. He would then bring out his momma, his babies, his baby momma's, etc. etc. etc. and they would all cry to the jury about what a wonderful person he was and how he was only stealing to be able to buy milk for his babies and so forth. The 12 people on the jury, not being smart enough to get out of jury duty will buy it, at least partially and they'll want to award his family something to ease their suffering.

It's not fair and it's not right, but it's the way it is. Best not to tempt fate.

If you're such a bad shot or can't control your emotions such that you can't defend yourself with 11 rounds (1+10 in the mag), and change a mag in a second or two, you probably shouldn't be relying on a gun to defend yourself. You need to develop another strategy.

NotEnufGarage
03-09-2012, 7:49 PM
You're making some very absolute statements there; I think you're forgetting a key piece though by not prefacing some of them with:

"In my opinion..."

Fine, in my opinion, I would rather not give a plaintiffs attorney a single issue to bring to question my motives in shooting and killing his clients son, brother, baby daddy or father that would allow him to even get a civil case in front of a judge.

If everything I did in that situation was beyond question and the police report of the incident ruled it to be a 100% clean shoot, the judge would more than likely throw it out in the first few minutes.

Why risk otherwise?

And, in civil court, there are no absolutes. I am not an attorney, but I've heard too many stories from friends, acquaintences, etc. that spent an awful lot of money defending themselves against civil actions when they had done absolutely nothing illegal, immoral or wrong in any other way. The prevailing attitude is that if someone is negatively impacted, somebody else is responsible for it and should be made to pay.

Civil court is a gamble. The plaintiffs have nothing to lose. The defendant has everything to lose. It makes zero sense to me to give the house extra cards to play against you.

lhecker51
03-09-2012, 8:17 PM
I will ask my sister this evening. She is a Dep DA for ******* County in SoCal.

Should anyone need a DA's perspective, I can bring it up with her with the caveat that she will know I am posting the response to a public forum. She may not wish me to post publicly, so the answer may be in a private message if that. I'm sure you will understand that she has a job to do and I do not want to put her career at risk for any sensitive questions that are not already a public position of the DA's office.

Admins, I know you have the ability to see my personal info and connect the dots and already trust that you respect it. My only reservation about sending even a PM would be if the forum owner could be compelled by court order to release info which I believe they can, so I will tread with caution.

The question that is being asked is innocent enough that I do not think there will be a problem.

Just spoke to my sister and she stated that if the shooting is justified, you will get all of your property back, even the high cap mag as it is not illegal to own. She cannot speak for other counties but sees no reason that they would not return them with the exception of Los Angeles: It appears that even with a justified shoot you can run into a lot of hassle getting your firearm back as well depending on what their mood is as they have not been consistent in the past.

lrdchivalry
03-09-2012, 8:18 PM
This I would like to know more about. If anyone can cite the actual case, please do so. I would like to add it to my files.

The Massad Ayoob Chronicles has a reponse to a question about modifying your guns. I can be viewed here (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/brad-kozak/the-massad-ayoob-chronicles-part-v/). Scroll down to find the question and response.

jb7706
03-09-2012, 8:20 PM
So a Glock with a 4.5lb pull is less safe than my Wilson carry piece with a 4.5lb pull?

These are going to be facts in dispute at trial. This is what experts and lawyers are for.

-Brandon

According to the manufacturer of the Glock, yeah. (I have no idea if Wilson has any such statements published.) I never said it made any sense, just that it would be a possible issue at trial.

QuarterBoreGunner
03-09-2012, 8:27 PM
And, in civil court, there are no absolutes. I am not an attorney, but I've heard too many stories from friends, acquaintences, etc. that spent an awful lot of money defending themselves against civil actions when they had done absolutely nothing illegal, immoral or wrong in any other way. The prevailing attitude is that if someone is negatively impacted, somebody else is responsible for it and should be made to pay.

Civil court is a gamble. The plaintiffs have nothing to lose. The defendant has everything to lose. It makes zero sense to me to give the house extra cards to play against you.

But this I agree with 100%. I was involved in a self defense shooting many years ago; completely righteous shoot. But the bad guy's mom sued me and the gun store I was working for at the time for 'negligent discharge of a firearm'.

The suit never made it to court as the insurance company offered up a 'one time only, no negotiation, offer of $5000' which she took and signed off on any rights to future action.

Pissed me off but the lawyer for the insurance company explained it like this; ' what if he (the bad guy) gets a sympathetic court and jury? You (me and the others involved) could lose your business, your house, everything. So if I could make this whole thing go away for $5000 and didn't do it, I wouldn't be doing my job.'

Still pissed off.

77bawls
03-09-2012, 10:52 PM
Well reading this makes me fell better about putting Apex kits in both my M&P's. Time to go shopping.

Ron-Solo
03-09-2012, 11:10 PM
If you lawfully obtained the 10+ capacity magazine, you should use it in your carry gun. The longer you can engage without reloading, the better. There is nothing illegal about it, and dirtbag's attorney can bring it up all he wants. Your attorney will easily be able o counter any argument concerning the magazine, since you have done nothing wrong.

As far as modifications, unless you do something that clearly makes your gun unsafe, Yu are good to go. Be careful with trigger modifications that make the trigger pull extremely light, they might be able to use a "hair trigger" moification against you in the case of an accidental shooting. If you intended or the gun to go off, a 2lb trigger vs a 10lb trigger is irrelevant.

One of my department's homicide detectives once said, "we don't care if you used a cannon, as long as you legally own it, as long as its a good shoot. A good shoot is a good shoot."

ap3572001
03-10-2012, 10:17 AM
If you lawfully obtained the 10+ capacity magazine, you should use it in your carry gun. The longer you can engage without reloading, the better. There is nothing illegal about it, and dirtbag's attorney can bring it up all he wants. Your attorney will easily be able o counter any argument concerning the magazine, since you have done nothing wrong.

As far as modifications, unless you do something that clearly makes your gun unsafe, Yu are good to go. Be careful with trigger modifications that make the trigger pull extremely light, they might be able to use a "hair trigger" moification against you in the case of an accidental shooting. If you intended or the gun to go off, a 2lb trigger vs a 10lb trigger is irrelevant.

One of my department's homicide detectives once said, "we don't care if you used a cannon, as long as you legally own it, as long as its a good shoot. A good shoot is a good shoot."
+1! I can agree more.

ap3572001
03-10-2012, 10:19 AM
Regardless of what anyone will tell You , the ability to fire continuously , without a need to reload is a HUGE advantage in some situations.

jaymz
03-10-2012, 10:26 AM
Use whatever legal magazine you want. Use whatever ammo you want. Modify the trigger all you want. Paint it pink if you want. A good shoot is a good shoot. If it isn't a good shoot, all of the above will be of little concern compared to the rest of the charges.