PDA

View Full Version : Parker vs DC appeal


Scarecrow Repair
04-09-2007, 12:53 PM
http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2007/04/09/parker-v-dc-update/

Lawyers for the District filed a petition this morning asking a federal appeals court to revisit last month’s decision by a panel of judges that the city’s gun law is unconstitutional.

After a three-judge panel ruled that the city’s restrictions on gun ownership violated the Second Amendment of the Constitution, Mayor Adrian M. Fenty (D) and other city leaders vowed to fight the decision. Today Fenty was at the federal courthouse when city lawyers filed the petition.

The mayor said that after all the work that has gone into bringing crime down, the city cannot afford to accept a ruling that would increase the number of guns in the city.

“More guns quite simply leads to more violence,” Fenty told reporters outside the courthouse. He was flanked by Attorney General Linda Singer, Council members Phil Mendelson (D-at large) and Marion Barry (D-Ward 8) and Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier.

For decades the District has had some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country, prohibiting private citizens from owning handguns and limiting ownership and use of rifles and shotguns.

The restrictions have drawn the ire of libertarians, gun enthusiasts and others, and this is not the first time the laws have come under fire.

(…)

The District could have appealed directly to the Supreme Court, bypassing a possible review by the full, or en banc, court and the case may yet appear before the nation’s highest tribunal.

But Singer said the city’s interests would be served by allowing the full appeals court to hear the case. “We want to give them a chance to look at this first,” Singer said at the briefing outside the court house.

With one of the court’s 11 seats vacant, the case would be heard by 10 judges on the court and by Silberman. As a senior judge Silberman would not ordinarily sit for en banc reviews but would in this case because he was a member of the panel that issued the decision.

Singer said she expected the court would decide this spring whether to grant the city’s petition for en banc review, and that if it did, the case would likely be argued in the fall.

Charliegone
04-09-2007, 1:28 PM
I say bring it b****!:cool:

6172crew
04-09-2007, 1:47 PM
Any idea how the 10 judges would vote? Cato did a great job the first time I hope they can get all ten to see it our way but why would the city waste more $$ if they didnt think they were going to win this time.:o

Wulf
04-09-2007, 2:00 PM
The mayor said that after all the work that has gone into bringing crime down, the city cannot afford to accept a ruling that would increase the number of guns in the city.

“More guns quite simply leads to more violence,” Fenty told reporters outside the courthouse. He was flanked by Attorney General Linda Singer, Council members Phil Mendelson (D-at large) and Marion Barry (D-Ward 8) and Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier.

You'd just have to be a world classy lying whore to say that with a straight face.

Damien45
04-09-2007, 2:04 PM
You'd just have to be a world classy lying whore to say that with a straight face.


Or just an outright idiot. Trouble is, he has people he pays to do stats for him. HOW they reach the numbers is in no way important to him, just that they say what he wants. Pay me enough, I wan find statistics that says sandpaper is the only healthy toiletpaper to use. :rolleyes:

tgriffin
04-09-2007, 2:07 PM
This is very good for us....... I especially liked that there is a seat open in the appeals court.... to have Silberman sit in will go a along way towards increasing the odds of victory.

Also thought it was funny that they mentioned that the city could try and take this directly to SCOTUS...... but decided not to..... is there an ace up their sleeves in the appeals court, or are there strings being pulled in the background here... nothing is ever just about the case at hand anymore.... always politics involved.

6172crew
04-09-2007, 2:14 PM
This is very good for us....... I especially liked that there is a seat open in the appeals court.... to have Silberman sit in will go a along way towards increasing the odds of victory.

Also thought it was funny that they mentioned that the city could try and take this directly to SCOTUS...... but decided not to..... is there an ace up their sleeves in the appeals court, or are there strings being pulled in the background here... nothing is ever just about the case at hand anymore.... always politics involved.


Kinda what I was thinking. Why didnt they stand up on the soap box and yell they were taking it all the way to the top. Im sure some of our guy on CGs will be able to get a better idea how the other judges will vote but Im guessing the city likes the odds or they wouldnt be talking **** right now.

*fingers x'd*

FreedomIsNotFree
04-09-2007, 2:16 PM
Any idea how the 10 judges would vote? Cato did a great job the first time I hope they can get all ten to see it our way but why would the city waste more $$ if they didnt think they were going to win this time.:o

Its actually one guy alone that funded Parker. He wanted to make sure it wasn't viewed as political.

I believe the Mayor of DC must fight this case regardless of the likelihood of reversal. He has to cover his political arse and if he doesn't fight this case he will be branded as soft on "gun violence".....:rolleyes:

luvtolean
04-09-2007, 2:16 PM
I'm thinking DC does NOT like their odds right now, so why hurry to the loss?

I think they're still hoping for a political solution. Or an "other" event.

FreedomIsNotFree
04-09-2007, 2:18 PM
I'm sure DC just wants two swings at it...why swing only once when you can swing twice?

tgriffin
04-09-2007, 2:22 PM
I'm sure DC just wants two swings at it...why swing only once when you can swing twice?

Especially when its on the taxpayers dollar.

6172crew
04-09-2007, 2:23 PM
Its actually one guy alone that funded Parker. He wanted to make sure it wasn't viewed as political.

I believe the Mayor of DC must fight this case regardless of the likelihood of reversal. He has to cover his political arse and if he doesn't fight this case he will be branded as soft on "gun violence".....:rolleyes:


I hope your right, hell Lockyear sued everyone even if it was stupid to do so.:)

xenophobe
04-09-2007, 2:28 PM
I'm sure DC just wants two swings at it...why swing only once when you can swing twice?

Exactly. Filing for the en blanc review is cheap and still gives them the opportunity to bring it up to SCOTUS if they're denied review or lose. It's pretty much a no-brainer...

FreedomIsNotFree
04-09-2007, 2:30 PM
I hope your right, hell Lockyear sued everyone even if it was stupid to do so.:)

Many politicians are "lawyers"...and we know they live to sue.....should we be surprised?

Its times like these that I'm reminded of a legal phrase...

"The wheels of Justice grind slowly"

We will have to be patient, but I have great hopes. Hell, its taken 70 years to get this far...

PanzerAce
04-09-2007, 2:46 PM
Exactly. Filing for the en blanc review is cheap and still gives them the opportunity to bring it up to SCOTUS if they're denied review or lose. It's pretty much a no-brainer...


Interesting little tidbit I learned from a friend of mine about court politics: The en blanc review will most likely not change the panel's ruling, since it would basically be a slap in the face of the judges that they are working with. They may not write any additional agreement, but they probably won't reverse it either.

hoffmang
04-09-2007, 3:19 PM
A couple of clarifications but first, Scarecrow - beating me to posting this! Excellent work, now get back to work since I'm the one on vacation :P

I'm 99% sure that DC had to appeal to the en-banc court to be able to exhaust all appeals before filing for Cert with the Supreme Court.

The most likely scenario is that the en-banc court will not hear this. en-banc re-hearings are very rare and usually only happen when a three judge panel goes or appears to go against binding precedent in that court or their opinion asks the whole court to hear it in their opinion as they are bound by a decision that they don't think is correct in the case. Neither of those items are in Parker.

If they were to hear it, I expect it is to do a little historical grandstanding, not to overturn it. Silberman knows that this will be a historic decision and some of the other members of the court may want in on the history books.

I'm amused DC appealed. However, they were between a rock and a hard place.

SCOTUS here we come. My personal prediction is that during June en-banc rehearing will be denied. Expect a cert filing in July.

-Gene

tgriffin
04-09-2007, 3:33 PM
Gene, assuming that the en-banc isnt denied.....what position will that put the case in? Would the case be better served to go to SCOTUS as the result of a win on appeal (e.g. Parker et al. appealing to SCOTUS) or as a result of loss/denial of appeal (e.g. DC appealing to SCOTUS )? what do we know about the appeals court? Will Silberman in the 11th seat make the difference?

leelaw
04-09-2007, 3:40 PM
“More guns quite simply leads to more violence,” Fenty told reporters outside the courthouse. He was flanked by Attorney General Linda Singer, Council members Phil Mendelson (D-at large) and Marion Barry (D-Ward 8) and Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier.

Which would explain why DC, after nearly a complete ban on handguns for decades, is anything but the murder capital of america.

hoffmang
04-09-2007, 3:57 PM
If the court takes it en-banc, they could order new filings or oral argument but rarely do. Usually they rule from the existing record. I think what we want is either no en-banc or an en-banc where they uphold the ruling. The DC Circuit is well respected at SCOTUS.

The most realistic "loss" we could have would be that the en-banc court narrows the ruling somehow. However, I can't think of a way they could.

I suggest reading up on the current composition of the court:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals_for_the_District_of _Columbia_Circuit

Also, note who used to be there.

Also: I was just reading up on en-banc frequency. The 9th Circuit is by far the largest circuit. I'd estimate that it takes 4 times the number of cases as the DC Circuit. In all of 2006 they only heard 25 en-banc appeals and that number is even large for their size. That should shed some light on the reasons I say that don't expect an en-banc rehearing in this case in the DC Circuit.

-Gene

blacklisted
04-09-2007, 4:04 PM
For those that don't know, look who is present:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janice_Rogers_Brown

This name should sound familiar. :)

If the court takes it en-banc, they could order new filings or oral argument but rarely do. Usually they rule from the existing record. I think what we want is either no en-banc or an en-banc where they uphold the ruling. The DC Circuit is well respected at SCOTUS.

The most realistic "loss" we could have would be that the en-banc court narrows the ruling somehow. However, I can't think of a way they could.

I suggest reading up on the current composition of the court:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals_for_the_District_of _Columbia_Circuit

Also, note who used to be there.

-Gene

hoffmang
04-09-2007, 4:05 PM
And for those who don't recognize Janice Rogers-Brown, she was the author of Harrot v. County of Kings as blacklisted was alluding to.

-Gene

LAK Supply
04-09-2007, 4:35 PM
Interesting.....from what I recall she's been good for the RKBA, for the most part. Am I remembering correctly that Harrott's principles are intertwined with our OLL situation today?

bwiese
04-09-2007, 4:37 PM
Interesting.....from what I recall she's been good for the RKBA, for the most part. Am I remembering correctly that Harrott's principles are intertwined with our OLL situation today?

2001's Harrott v County of Kings is precisely why we can have off-list "series" receivers, as "AR15 series" and "AK47 series" terms are too broad: specific ban of exact make/model is required.

LAK Supply
04-09-2007, 4:59 PM
That's what I thought.....didn't want to say for sure since I wasn't sure.

hoffmang
04-09-2007, 6:56 PM
Just found the en-banc appeal and have mirrored it on my site:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/parker_rehearing_petition.pdf

Also, the Washington Post actually had a favorable article on Parker and Parker herself:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/07/AR2007040700983_pf.html

-Gene

AJD
04-09-2007, 7:43 PM
The mayor said that after all the work that has gone into bringing crime down, the city cannot afford to accept a ruling that would increase the number of guns in the city.

“More guns quite simply leads to more violence,” Fenty told reporters outside the courthouse. He was flanked by Attorney General Linda Singer, Council members Phil Mendelson (D-at large) and Marion Barry (D-Ward 8) and Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier.

I'm sorry, but I just can't stop laughing at that ridiculous statement. Of course, if that wasn't comical enough, Fenty made those comments while Marion Barry flanked him in support. You just can't make this stuff up. LOL!!

anotherone
04-09-2007, 9:30 PM
So lemme get this straight:

The composition of the en banc panel consists of only 4 Democrat appointed judges... one of which was appointed by Clinton and approved by a Republican congress.

They had a better chance the first time around than with this panel of judges. This thing is going to the SCOTUS isn't it?

jerryg1776
04-09-2007, 9:36 PM
I'm sorry, but I just can't stop laughing at that ridiculous statement. Of course, if that wasn't comical enough, Fenty made those comments while Marion Barry flanked him in support. You just can't make this stuff up. LOL!!

Dont forget the Chief of Plice right there. Maybe to make sure Marion Barry wasnt smoking or selling crack during the news conference. he has a bad habit of that on camera... haha.

I am hoping that this goes to SCOTUS and we finally strike an X in he win column.

Alan Block
04-09-2007, 10:05 PM
I think that if the Panel upholds the appeal then DC will be pressured by the Antis to drop the appeal and not let it go to the SCOTUS. That would have the effect of limiting the damage to their cause.

hoffmang
04-09-2007, 10:43 PM
Antis should take the strategy you outline Alan, but I think they'll screw it up much to our benefit.

One issue is that if they do let this stand, and as DC points out in its brief for en-banc rehearing I linked to above, then every US Citizen can sue the US Attorney General in the DC Circuit to challenge any and all federal gun laws regardless of what the precedent is in your home circuit (like the 9th's precedent that the 2nd Amendment is a nullity.)

-Gene

PanzerAce
04-10-2007, 5:41 AM
Antis should take the strategy you outline Alan, but I think they'll screw it up much to our benefit.


-Gene

yup. And of course, they already screwed themselves with the media storm right after the decision. At this point, they CAN'T back out.

1911_sfca
04-10-2007, 9:24 AM
The fact that Silberman will be sitting in on the en banc review pretty much sums it up: it's extremely unlikely that the ruling will be overturned or significantly altered.

I'd bet the odds are 60%-40% or better that they're not going to re-hear the case. Expect it to go to SCOTUS.

The only reasons I can think of for requesting the en-banc hearing were 1) so that they have exhausted all appeals, for a better chance of cert at SCOTUS, and 2) to delay, so that ideally the case wouldn't make it to the supreme court before '08, when the dems have some chance of replacing one or more members of the current court.

hoffmang
04-10-2007, 9:25 AM
I'm pretty sure that DC had to exhaust their appeals before filing for cert with the Supreme Court.

If you read their filing their only real argument is that US v Miller means something different than its own plain language.

-Gene

ghettoshecky
04-10-2007, 11:49 PM
gawd I hope this gets to SCOTUS. With interpretists judges like Alito, Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, and Kennedy this should rule in our favor. With 5 known interpretists and 7 possible conservatives the time couldn't be better.

hoffmang
04-11-2007, 11:45 AM
Dr Volokh has a good summary of the likely timeline.

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2007_03_04-2007_03_10.shtml#1173454696

-Gene