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DocSkinner
03-07-2012, 11:48 AM
Just checking the facts on this. There was a recent story of a liquor store owner in Concord that was robbed (multiple times now) and teh article says:

" He says his hands are tied, because he canít afford to hire a security guard for his store, he canít move, and he isnít allowed to have a gun because he says as long as Super Food & Liquor has a liquor license, then the Alcohol & Beverage Control wonít let him keep a weapon inside the store. "

Is this really true?

HowardW56
03-07-2012, 11:49 AM
Just checking the facts on this. There was a recent story of a liquor store owner in Concord that was robbed (multiple times now) and teh article says:

" He says his hands are tied, because he canít afford to hire a security guard for his store, he canít move, and he isnít allowed to have a gun because he says as long as Super Food & Liquor has a liquor license, then the Alcohol & Beverage Control wonít let him keep a weapon inside the store. "

Is this really true?

Never heard that one...

SouperMan
03-07-2012, 11:54 AM
Me either. Self-imposed FUD?

Only thing close I can think if is that Sac County CCW permit holders are not allowed to carry in a establishment that serves alcohol as it's primary function. Don't know if this is a condition on all California CCW permits or just for those issued in Sacramento.

Sent from my mobile via Tapatalk.

bigcalidave
03-07-2012, 11:59 AM
He both wouldn't need a CCW to carry in his own store, AND liquor stores don't serve alcohol...

DocSkinner
03-07-2012, 12:00 PM
Wonder if it is just crap a local agent of the ABC has fed him.

Gray Peterson
03-07-2012, 12:03 PM
Someone reach out to this guy. Now.

hvengel
03-07-2012, 12:08 PM
Does a liquor store "serve" alcohol. After all I think it is not legal to consume the alcohol in the store.

DocSkinner
03-07-2012, 12:13 PM
Someone reach out to this guy. Now.

Forwarded the link to Brandon, not sure who exactly should be contacted, but figured he would know!

edwardm
03-07-2012, 12:14 PM
Someone reach out to this guy. Now.

I PM'd Doc for more info. I also have some contacts at ABC that might be helpful in backtracing this FUD and stopping it from happening again (or in obtaining clarification if there are unknown factors).

Meh.

Lives_In_Fresno
03-07-2012, 12:14 PM
Honestly, if I were the owner, and had different employees behind the counter depending on the date and time, etc., I'm not sure I'd want a gun behind the counter for them to use.
After all, I'm not always going to be there to help decide if the threat warrants usage of the gun. Getting everyone trained, etc., might also cost a fortune....

Imagine the liability if they accidentally shoot an innocent?

On the other hand, robbed multiple times in three weeks....Hmmm

Librarian
03-07-2012, 12:19 PM
Appears to be this story - http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/crime-law/takeover-bandits-assault-clerk-rob-customers-viole/nLM4M/ and this one http://claycord.com/2012/03/07/after-pistol-whipping-violent-take-over-robbery-super-food-liquor-owner-asks-whats-next-murder/

DocSkinner
03-07-2012, 12:25 PM
I PM'd Doc for more info. I also have some contacts at ABC that might be helpful in backtracing this FUD and stopping it from happening again (or in obtaining clarification if there are unknown factors).

Meh.

replied by pm - -

CitaDeL
03-07-2012, 12:30 PM
Imagine the liability if they accidentally shoot an innocent?


Imagine being dead because you thought that you couldnt arm yourself in your own place of business.

odysseus
03-07-2012, 12:35 PM
Yeah, that is technically wrong information. Plenty of wine\liquor store people pack heat around the shop.

Lives_In_Fresno
03-07-2012, 12:45 PM
Imagine being dead because you thought that you couldnt arm yourself in your own place of business.

I'm talking about the employees, from the perspective of the owner. The employees work there...It isn't "their" place of business. And, "couldn't" wasn't the issue I raised.

He has been robbed twice recently, and nobody died...Where did you get the death from? One of the employees pulling the weapon but being untrained or unable to shoot might cause their own death, which is what I'm getting at.

Thanks for only quoting part of my note though, making it seem like you are taking it out of context. :oji:

Oceanbob
03-07-2012, 12:46 PM
I call FUD....

Tell that to these Korean Liquor store owners...!..hahaha

CvaNJ0mF_JM

I think all store owners are allowed to have guns on them at work.

tgCiC6qTtjs&feature=related

watsonville
03-07-2012, 12:56 PM
I call bullpucky

Woodworker2
03-07-2012, 1:22 PM
I wonder if it is from misapplying this flyer from the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control. "QUICK SUMMARY OF SELECTED LAWS FOR
RETAIL LICENSEES" http://www.abc.ca.gov/FORMS/ABC608.pdf , page 10, item 42

Weapons
Licensees may not possess or sell certain firearms and/or weapons, including but not limited to,
undetectable firearms, nunchakus, short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, metal knuckles,
billy clubs, dirks, and daggers. (Sec. 12020 PC)

Peter W Bush
03-07-2012, 1:32 PM
I'm a liquor store owner. I've been ENCOURAGED by LEOs to carry at work. I think my main liquor store has more guns than many Calgunnners homes lol.

Librarian
03-07-2012, 1:33 PM
I wonder if it is from misapplying this flyer from the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control. "QUICK SUMMARY OF SELECTED LAWS FOR
RETAIL LICENSEES" http://www.abc.ca.gov/FORMS/ABC608.pdf , page 10, item 42

Weapons
Licensees may not possess or sell certain firearms and/or weapons, including but not limited to,
undetectable firearms, nunchakus, short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, metal knuckles,
billy clubs, dirks, and daggers. (Sec. 12020 PC)

Yes, I could see that being misinterpreted in the way the store owner reports.

CitaDeL
03-07-2012, 1:45 PM
I'm talking about the employees, from the perspective of the owner. The employees work there...It isn't "their" place of business. And, "couldn't" wasn't the issue I raised.

He has been robbed twice recently, and nobody died...Where did you get the death from? One of the employees pulling the weapon but being untrained or unable to shoot might cause their own death, which is what I'm getting at.

Thanks for only quoting part of my note though, making it seem like you are taking it out of context. :oji:

Okay. So, you contend that the owner/s can't give permission to their clerks to carry a handgun for liability reasons and that since no death has occured that its somehow imprudent to let the clerks defend themselves from an attack because they might kill themselves in being untrained with a firearm.

As to each point you raised, I completely disagree. Given the circumstances, the only reasonable way to respond to a pistol whipping from an armed and dangerous robber is to put them in a box and throw six feet of dirt on it.

Note to self; do not become an employee of Lives_in_Fresno.

Glock22Fan
03-07-2012, 1:52 PM
Okay. So, you contend that the owner/s can't give permission to their clerks to carry a handgun for liability reasons and that since no death has occured that its somehow imprudent to let the clerks defend themselves from an attack because they might kill themselves in being untrained with a firearm.

As to each point you raised, I completely disagree. Given the circumstances, the only reasonable way to respond to a pistol whipping from an armed and dangerous robber is to put them in a box and throw six feet of dirt on it.

Note to self; do not become an employee of Lives_in_Fresno.

IANAL but perceived wisdom, as explained in Machtinger's book, is that employees, as opposed to owners, cannot carry concealed at their place of work unless they have a CCW of their own.

chillincody
03-07-2012, 1:53 PM
I call FUD on that due to my local gun shop is hirams liquor and gun shop im pretty sure hes carrys in his store!! :)

SouperMan
03-07-2012, 2:37 PM
I call FUD on that due to my local gun shop is hirams liquor and gun shop im pretty sure hes carrys in his store!! :)

Wow! A AF store! If Hiram's sells tobacco too, they can be a ATF store! ;)

Sent from my mobile via Tapatalk.

chillincody
03-07-2012, 2:41 PM
Wow! A AF store! If Hiram's sells tobacco too, they can be a ATF store! ;)

Sent from my mobile via Tapatalk.

They do lol :)

dantodd
03-07-2012, 2:58 PM
They do lol :)

Sounds like a must stop on my next trip south....

whtl
03-07-2012, 3:08 PM
I owned a Liquor Store for 11 years in East Los Angeles. I had four Gangs to contend with, they all knew I had a couple of 9mm;s and a shotgun I was never held up. They were hitting all the little Korean mom & pops. I am of Mexican decent... maybe thats why I was lucky.

NoHeavyHitter
03-07-2012, 3:08 PM
isnít allowed to have a gun because he says...

B.S. this guy's an ex-felon. :p

Peter W Bush
03-07-2012, 5:13 PM
I owned a Liquor Store for 11 years in East Los Angeles. I had four Gangs to contend with, they all knew I had a couple of 9mm;s and a shotgun I was never held up. They were hitting all the little Korean mom & pops. I am of Mexican decent... maybe thats why I was lucky.

That's the only reason they wouldn't rob you. Trust me, the gangbangers don't care about your 9 or your shotgun, AT ALL.

CitaDeL
03-07-2012, 5:15 PM
IANAL but perceived wisdom, as explained in Machtinger's book, is that employees, as opposed to owners, cannot carry concealed at their place of work unless they have a CCW of their own.

Who said anything about carrying concealed?

1911_sfca
03-08-2012, 10:55 AM
IANAL but perceived wisdom, as explained in Machtinger's book, is that employees, as opposed to owners, cannot carry concealed at their place of work unless they have a CCW of their own.

It boils down to this..

Penal code 26035 exempts an authorized employee from the prohibition on carrying a loaded firearm, while in the business premises.

Penal code 25605(a) exempts a citizen or legal resident from the concealed carry prohibition (PC 26400, formerly 12025) if they are in their "place of residence, place of business, or on private property". Whether you are in your place of business if you are an employee, is a question to be sorted out by case law and I'm not aware of what the case law is on the subject.

With respect to the OP, there is no general ABC prohibition on keeping a firearm in premises licensed by the ABC. Just ask 90% of the liquor store owners in Oakland.

Trivia: In fact there is a specific section in the ABC Act for licenses related to Rod & Gun clubs (B&P ß 23428.2)
If you want a trip back in time to the 20's, read the ABC Act. It's very clear that many parts of that code have not been touched in almost 100 years.

Glock22Fan
03-08-2012, 12:04 PM
IANAL but perceived wisdom, as explained in Machtinger's book, is that employees, as opposed to owners, cannot carry concealed at their place of work unless they have a CCW of their own.

Who said anything about carrying concealed?

I italicised "concealed" BECAUSE nobody had distinguished between open and concealed up to that time and readers could have assumed, perhaps unwisely, that either was equally permissable. Certainly a business owner can give permission for an employee to Open Carry, presumably as long as it is not classed as a Public Space. There is some doubt as to whether an owner can give permission for concealed carry (see next comment).

It boils down to this..

Penal code 26035 exempts an authorized employee from the prohibition on carrying a loaded firearm, while in the business premises.

Penal code 25605(a) exempts a citizen or legal resident from the concealed carry prohibition (PC 26400, formerly 12025) if they are in their "place of residence, place of business, or on private property". Whether you are in your place of business if you are an employee, is a question to be sorted out by case law and I'm not aware of what the case law is on the subject.

snip
.

I agree. It is a gray area, to be sorted out by case law, which is a little thin on the ground. This is probably why, I think, Machtinger advises against it. This is why I said it is perceived wisdom. I did not say it was settled law.

Nuances seem to be lost on some people. ;)

CSACANNONEER
03-08-2012, 12:21 PM
I'm a liquor store owner. I've been ENCOURAGED by LEOs to carry at work. I think my main liquor store has more guns than many Calgunnners homes lol.

And that doesn't count the ones your customers bring in.;)

DocSkinner
03-08-2012, 1:51 PM
So stopped by local lottery purchase spot - One of the owners was there and as they were robbed a few months ago, asked them if ABC had told them they were not allowed to have a firearm, and they too were told that they would have their license pulled if they kept a gun on premises. I gave them a card and she said she would pass on to her husband who takes care of these details.

Seems pretty common in this area...

DocSkinner
03-08-2012, 2:02 PM
It boils down to this..

Penal code 26035 exempts an authorized employee from the prohibition on carrying a loaded firearm, while in the business premises.

Penal code 25605(a) exempts a citizen or legal resident from the concealed carry prohibition (PC 26400, formerly 12025) if they are in their "place of residence, place of business, or on private property". Whether you are in your place of business if you are an employee, is a question to be sorted out by case law and I'm not aware of what the case law is on the subject.

With respect to the OP, there is no general ABC prohibition on keeping a firearm in premises licensed by the ABC. Just ask 90% of the liquor store owners in Oakland.

Trivia: In fact there is a specific section in the ABC Act for licenses related to Rod & Gun clubs (B&P ß 23428.2)
If you want a trip back in time to the 20's, read the ABC Act. It's very clear that many parts of that code have not been touched in almost 100 years.

And no one says they have to be carrying it. it can be behind the counter, making this whole side point even more moot.

Flopper
03-08-2012, 2:36 PM
So stopped by local lottery purchase spot - One of the owners was there and as they were robbed a few months ago, asked them if ABC had told them they were not allowed to have a firearm, and they too were told that they would have their license pulled if they kept a gun on premises. I gave them a card and she said she would pass on to her husband who takes care of these details.

Seems pretty common in this area...

Wow, that is SOOOO screwed up. . .

Peter W Bush
03-08-2012, 2:41 PM
And that doesn't count the ones your customers bring in.;)

I have no idea what you're talking about :43:

Oh wait you mean my C&R Springfield? That one's a beauty :)

halifax
03-08-2012, 3:00 PM
Diamond Sporting Goods (previously Diamond Jims) in Ukiah sells more liquor than firearms and they certainly sell both and have had for years. I know for a fact that Jim packed. Whether it was it legal for him to do so, I don't know.

DocSkinner
03-08-2012, 3:11 PM
It appears total FUD and people are checking into it all!

osokne
03-08-2012, 3:31 PM
Sooo... the ABC document contains this verbage:
"Licensees may not possess or sell certain firearms and/or weapons, including but not limited to, undetectable firearms, nunchakus, short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, metal knuckles, billy clubs, dirks, and daggers. (Sec. 12020 PC)"

In Sec. 12020 PC, I didn't see a reference to any "Licensee", or to "Alcohol", or to "Liquor", for that matter. Granted, yes... I skimmed it (having read it before) and used the browser word searcher, for those as well as a few other terms... and found nothing. Is it really deeply buried in there? Did ABC publish the wrong PC (i.e: a typo)? Or what?

Librarian
03-08-2012, 3:58 PM
Sooo... the ABC document contains this verbage:
"Licensees may not possess or sell certain firearms and/or weapons, including but not limited to, undetectable firearms, nunchakus, short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, metal knuckles, billy clubs, dirks, and daggers. (Sec. 12020 PC)"

In Sec. 12020 PC, I didn't see a reference to any "Licensee", or to "Alcohol", or to "Liquor", for that matter. Granted, yes... I skimmed it (having read it before) and used the browser word searcher, for those as well as a few other terms... and found nothing. Is it really deeply buried in there? Did ABC publish the wrong PC (i.e: a typo)? Or what?

That old numbered list is essentially a collection of things the legislature decided did not have any valid use (they were mostly wrong, as often they are) and ABC does not want those things sold in the same place as beer/wine/liquor. (New numbering begins with 20310 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/20310.html) and runs in pairs - 2xx10:it's a crime, 2xx90:it's a nuisance - for a while...)

It's NOT a prohibition on anyone owning or having or carrying a firearm in the business.

Kid Stanislaus
03-08-2012, 5:23 PM
Wonder if it is just crap a local agent of the ABC has fed him.

BINGO!! We have a winner!;)

Kid Stanislaus
03-08-2012, 5:26 PM
Yeah, that is technically wrong information. Plenty of wine\liquor store people pack heat around the shop.

About a year back some punk found out first hand when he tried to pull a heist in a liquor store in Modesto. He didn't have long to savor the information though, the clerk cancelled his ticket.

Kid Stanislaus
03-08-2012, 5:31 PM
I owned a Liquor Store for 11 years in East Los Angeles. I had four Gangs to contend with, they all knew I had a couple of 9mm;s and a shotgun I was never held up. They were hitting all the little Korean mom & pops. I am of Mexican decent... maybe thats why I was lucky.

Yeah, that's it. We all know that Mexicans don't kill other Mexicans!!:rolleyes:

Lives_In_Fresno
03-08-2012, 7:36 PM
Okay. So, you contend that the owner/s can't give permission to their clerks to carry a handgun for liability reasons and that since no death has occured that its somehow imprudent to let the clerks defend themselves from an attack because they might kill themselves in being untrained with a firearm.

As to each point you raised, I completely disagree. Given the circumstances, the only reasonable way to respond to a pistol whipping from an armed and dangerous robber is to put them in a box and throw six feet of dirt on it.

Note to self; do not become an employee of Lives_in_Fresno.

Actually, I didn't say they "cant" have a gun(or do you see it somewhere that I don't?). I said I would not advocate for the owner to provide it and make it generally available behind the counter.

I said "I" would not provide anything for general use...you seemed to be advocating affirmative action on the part of the owner to make sure there was a gun available for use, which is what I disagree with.

As to your note to self, you needn't worry...My guess is that you don't have expertise, in a field related to my work, that would make you a potential candidate.

That you wouldn't work for someone who disagrees with you is somewhat interesting....

edwardm
03-08-2012, 7:54 PM
This is all FUD. I'm waiting to find out the name of the ABC investigator/agent so I can get the 'education' process going.

nicki
03-09-2012, 12:39 AM
My understanding is while an owner can carry concealed and loaded at their business, the employees can't unless they have a CCW permit.

Seems to me that this is something that may be a target for a future lawsuit, after all, the core of the 2nd amendment is self-defense and two occupations that are among the highest for on the job homicide are taxi drivers and store clerks.

Nicki

1BigPea
03-09-2012, 10:56 AM
My understanding is while an owner can carry concealed and loaded at their business, the employees can't unless they have a CCW permit.

Seems to me that this is something that may be a target for a future lawsuit, after all, the core of the 2nd amendment is self-defense and two occupations that are among the highest for on the job homicide are taxi drivers and store clerks.

Nicki

Nope.

Employees can carry in their place of work with permission from the owner.

Databyter
03-09-2012, 11:07 AM
Just checking the facts on this. There was a recent story of a liquor store owner in Concord that was robbed (multiple times now) and teh article says:

" He says his hands are tied, because he can’t afford to hire a security guard for his store, he can’t move, and he isn’t allowed to have a gun because he says as long as Super Food & Liquor has a liquor license, then the Alcohol & Beverage Control won’t let him keep a weapon inside the store. "

Is this really true?

Time to get a lawyer if so.

It is likely that he believes it to be true, or that somebody told him that or threatened him.

But I find it hard to believe that there is any legal authority that binds liquor licenses with the ability to own guns.

Then again, Concord, it would not surprise me if the State of local government went over the bounds.

Librarian
03-09-2012, 11:43 AM
Nope.

Employees can carry in their place of work with permission from the owner.
... but probably not concealed.

It's a bit murky.

See the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry

Roach_Infinity
03-09-2012, 1:17 PM
"Undetectable Firearm" and "Concealable Firearm" have totally different meanings in the CA penal code last I checked... Undetectable being (and I am not quoting) a firearm which is specifically designed to counter various methods of electronic detection equipment. Ceramic and or plastic or other similarly constructed firearms would be examples...

Is that "ABC" federal or state law?

-Eric

Librarian
03-09-2012, 1:40 PM
ABC is California in this case - http://www.abc.ca.gov/

bruss01
03-09-2012, 1:46 PM
I deny the charges of robbing the liquor store

I deny the charges of carrying a .44

I deny the charges of "Vagrancy II"

LOL - name that tune.

HowardW56
03-09-2012, 2:02 PM
I deny the charges of robbing the liquor store

I deny the charges of carrying a .44

I deny the charges of "Vagrancy II"

LOL - name that tune.

Denial, la la la.... ♪♪♪♪♪

a1c
03-09-2012, 7:48 PM
Diamond Sporting Goods (previously Diamond Jims) in Ukiah sells more liquor than firearms and they certainly sell both and have had for years. I know for a fact that Jim packed. Whether it was it legal for him to do so, I don't know.

Yup, I did my last PPT there a couple of months ago. Still sells guns, still sells liquor. That's a booze store I wouldn't try to rob.

Peter W Bush
03-10-2012, 3:11 AM
Just heard that a friend of the family was robbed in his liquor store. The owner handed the scumbag the money, and the animal shot him in the face. He even went behind the counter to make sure the owner was dead. The bullet entered just below his eye and exited through the back of his neck. The owner played dead until the scumbag left then got his license plate info. Perp was arrested shorty after the robbery. I did a google search to see if it made the news but only found other stories about how liquor store workers were shot after they handed over the cash. Anyone committing such a heinous crime deserves the ultimate punishment, preferably delivered by the potential victim. The quote by Uncle Ted in my sig line sums it up nicely.

bruss01
03-10-2012, 10:23 AM
Denial, la la la.... ♪♪♪♪♪

Nope...

Think "golden oldie" :)

Next?

Tarn_Helm
03-10-2012, 4:58 PM
Just heard that a friend of the family was robbed in his liquor store. The owner handed the scumbag the money, and the animal shot him in the face. He even went behind the counter to make sure the owner was dead. The bullet entered just below his eye and exited through the back of his neck. The owner played dead until the scumbag left then got his license plate info. Perp was arrested shorty after the robbery. I did a google search to see if it made the news but only found other stories about how liquor store workers were shot after they handed over the cash. Anyone committing such a heinous crime deserves the ultimate punishment, preferably delivered by the potential victim. The quote by Uncle Ted in my sig line sums it up nicely. (emphasis added)

Holy crap!

What city and area?

Date?

Just out of curiosity: time?

I wish him a speedy recovery.
:(

Tarn_Helm
03-10-2012, 9:27 PM
Just checking the facts on this. There was a recent story of a liquor store owner in Concord that was robbed (multiple times now) and teh article says:

" He says his hands are tied, because he canít afford to hire a security guard for his store, he canít move, and he isnít allowed to have a gun because he says as long as Super Food & Liquor has a liquor license, then the Alcohol & Beverage Control wonít let him keep a weapon inside the store. "

Is this really true?

No.

It is not true.

:facepalm:

bruss01
03-11-2012, 8:48 AM
I deny the charges of robbing the liquor store

I deny the charges of carrying a .44

I deny the charges of "Vagrancy II"

LOL - name that tune.



Nobody? Aw, c'mon....

Well all-rooty... the answer is:



















'Framed" by the Coasters (1954)

Hear it on YouTube HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vet3tnDMlFs)

zum
03-11-2012, 9:35 AM
About a year back some punk found out first hand when he tried to pull a heist in a liquor store in Modesto. He didn't have long to savor the information though, the clerk cancelled his ticket.

my parents owned a couple of stores in the 90's in Modesto and sold them all after hearing about other owners that had to defend themselves and then fear retaliation. (+ LEO's would advise you to sell/move)

so my mom pressured my dad till he said the heck with it... sold everything and invested in property, and never looked back.

sad because my dad was loved in the community, since he treated everyone like family. Every so often, the once kids that would come into his stores stop him to say hi.

1911_sfca
03-11-2012, 9:42 AM
And no one says they have to be carrying it. it can be behind the counter, making this whole side point even more moot.

If you're not carrying it, it might as well be a shotgun in which case concealed carry is moot anyhow.

Peter W Bush
03-12-2012, 8:59 AM
(emphasis added)

Holy crap!

What city and area?
Rancho Cucamonga I believe

Date?
About a week ago

Just out of curiosity: time?
no idea.


I wish him a speedy recovery.
:(

It's a miracle he's even alive. From what I hear, robberies used to be no big deal. Perp walked in, got a couple hundred, and left. Now there are much more violent robbers.

Lives_In_Fresno
03-14-2012, 7:34 AM
The URL below references at least one good example why it may not be in the store owner's best interest to provide a gun for general use by employees.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/03/10/man-shot-at-detroit-gas-station-reportedly-over-price-of-condoms/

We don't know from this article how the gun was acquired, but from the clerk's apparent lack of knowledge regarding threat to a person being a prerequisite to use of a gun (self defense), I presume he didn't have a CCW permit.

Peter W Bush
03-14-2012, 2:55 PM
The URL below references at least one good example why it may not be in the store owner's best interest to provide a gun for general use by employees.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/03/10/man-shot-at-detroit-gas-station-reportedly-over-price-of-condoms/

We don't know from this article how the gun was acquired, but from the clerk's apparent lack of knowledge regarding threat to a person being a prerequisite to use of a gun (self defense), I presume he didn't have a CCW permit.

Customer was throwing things off shelves? That's a pretty bad reason to shoot someone. Clearly the clerk isn't well trained at all. In my expert opinion, I think the proper way of dealing with it is a baseball bat :43:

But the clerk is stupid for not just giving the guy is money back IF he only wanted back what he paid for the condoms.