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AJAX22
04-08-2007, 8:41 PM
ok I found another letter regarding making your own gun in CA

http://www.acmearms.com/80percent/caldoj-80letter_small.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Spikespigiel/dojletter.jpg

And from the ATF

http://www.chesapeake.net/~mcfadden/bigtoys/law/1.jpg

http://www.chesapeake.net/~mcfadden/bigtoys/law/2.jpg



combined with previous letters regarding the legality of manufacturing pistols, and the demise of the AK/AR series ban, I believe this definitivly clears up that

1) Yes it is legal to build your own pistol

2) Yes you can make a no-banned features AR/AK pistol

3) No, Drop testing is not required if the pistol never enters commerce

Sorry for the large images

xenophobe
04-08-2007, 10:26 PM
You're treading into highly gray territory here.

Creating your own generic non-commercial receiver, you may not end up having protection from Harrott, as the 9th only addressed a commercially manufactured rifle, and indeed a home made AR or AK series receiver could still fall under the generic AR or AK Series ban since there is no way that the AG could have identified it as a model series and list it as an AW. Although the power of the AG to list has been removed, completed home made or 80% featureless or fixed magazine build firearms has not been addressed and probably is not protected by Harrott.

A zealous DA would probably prosecute, and from my understanding, DA's won't likely charge as a public nuisance.

fun2none
04-09-2007, 12:04 AM
................
you may not end up having protection from Harrott, as the 9th only addressed a commercially manufactured .............

This is just a point of clarification. The Harrott ruling was decided by the Supreme Court of California, not 9th District US Court of Appeals. The 9th gave us the final ruling on Silveira vs Lockyer.

Technical Ted
04-09-2007, 12:14 AM
LOL I didn't know that was still around. I know the owner of the website where these letters were found. He moved out of California two years ago (I helped him move) and he hasn't updated the website for about the same amount of time.

In fact, in his own words:
I AM NOT A LAWYER! This document is not legal advice, should not be considered as legal advice, and in fact, could be wholly wrong! Heck, it's not even ATF approved! If you have any updates, suggestions, additions, or changes, please let me know and I'll try and incorporate them. In the mean time, though, don't even think that I know a darn thing about any of this. This document is for entertainment purposes only, and should not be considered definitive, correct, appropriate, or even authentic. Thanks.IIRC Bill Wiese made some comments on these letters along the same lines as Xeno.

AJAX22
04-09-2007, 9:28 PM
Ok..

So as far as building one of these pistols the issues are.

1) are homebuilt AR type receivers protected under Harrot

2) are homebuilt pistols subject to drop test requirements

3)does the mag lock for the AR series rifle satisfy the requirements for a fixed mag AR based pistol.

4) Is it ok to make a firearm out of an 80% receiver (federal question)


Is there anything that I am overlooking?

SunshineGlocker
04-09-2007, 9:33 PM
From my reading of all this, it sounds like only commercial AR-15 receivers can be truly off-list.

I'm more interested in the handgun thing. AM's letter clearly says, "home-built handguns don't need a drop test". That makes sense! The requirement applies to FFL-sold handguns. I hope this is correct, because that's something I would like to actually do at some point.

bwiese
04-09-2007, 9:39 PM
From my reading of all this, it sounds like only commercial AR-15 receivers can be truly off-list.


There is the possibility - one I worried about - that Harrott might not protect homebuilts because they could not practicably be listed (i.e, "Joe Smith #001").

Since the DOJ has given up listing ability, this worry has faded. If something (1) isn't listed and (2) can't be listed due to legal inability of the listing agency then it's legal.

m1aowner
04-09-2007, 9:50 PM
Anybody know of any members here who've built their own 1911? I see parts kits available, some with the slide already fitted to frame. From 1 to 10, what is the level of difficulty on assembly for a novice?

leelaw
04-09-2007, 10:00 PM
Anybody know of any members here who've built their own 1911? I see parts kits available, some with the slide already fitted to frame. From 1 to 10, what is the level of difficulty on assembly for a novice?

The frames fitted to a slide are complete frames and thus a firearm. If it's a firearm, then it needs to be sold through a dealer. If it's a handgun being sold through a dealer, it needs to be on the approved list.

The only kind of get around, that I could see, if building up from an 80% frame (not a firearm) and registering it with the state when complete.

m1aowner
04-09-2007, 10:03 PM
I see, you mean something like this.

http://www.diyguns.com/html_catalog/Frames+and+Part+Kits__80_25+Castings+_2F+Forgings-60_25+1911+frame+in+Carbon+Steel+GI+spec.html

The frames fitted to a slide are complete frames and thus a firearm. If it's a firearm, then it needs to be sold through a dealer. If it's a handgun being sold through a dealer, it needs to be on the approved list.

The only kind of get around, that I could see, if building up from an 80% frame (not a firearm) and registering it with the state when complete.

AJAX22
04-09-2007, 10:06 PM
Anybody know of any members here who've built their own 1911? I see parts kits available, some with the slide already fitted to frame. From 1 to 10, what is the level of difficulty on assembly for a novice?

If you have the proper tooling and a mill, it's about a 4 if you know what you're doing. (I haven't done a 1911 myself but I've seen it done.) if you're trying to make it a match gun then it gets exponentially harder, to just go bang you could actually do it with a dremmel if you had exceptionally steady hands.

other guns are easier (M11/9's are about a 1.5 or 2 on the difficulty scale, you could probably get them to work with ductape for a mag or two)

an AR is somewhere around a seven with the cheap tools, around a 3 if you buy the quality jigs,high end reamers and piolted taps.

An AK pistol would be a 1 with the right tooling, and most of the rife building tooing could be used, all you really need is a chopped rear trunnion and an AMD65 parts kit.

anyway, the actual building of it is easy, its the legal b.s. that has to be sorted out before getting into it thats a pain.

jumbopanda
04-09-2007, 10:29 PM
There is the possibility - one I worried about - that Harrott might not protect homebuilts because they could not practicably be listed (i.e, "Joe Smith #001").

Since the DOJ has given up listing ability, this worry has faded. If something (1) isn't listed and (2) can't be listed due to legal inability of the listing agency then it's legal.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Time to build my AK pistol. :D

Now I just gotta figure out how to make a bullet button lock...

JPglee1
04-10-2007, 5:53 PM
For a 1911 if you're trying to make it a match gun then it gets exponentially harder, to just go bang you could actually do it with a dremmel if you had exceptionally steady hands.
.

The way Ive seen it done easiest is to make a small rip fence/jig for your drill press, and then use a keyway cutter in it to make the actual grooves. You can get keyway cutters in any size/shape imaginable if you know where to look (no im not telling you where)

http://www.docsmachine.com/milltool.jpg
keyway cutter

Basically you set the cutter in the drill press, get your measurements correct and you push the frame of the pistol along the table against your "rip fence" in successively deeper and deeper cuts as you progress.

http://ca.geocities.com/lglg.winn@rogers.com/Mill_1.jpg
If you use an X-Y axis table/vice it makes it much easier.

It CAN be done entirely with a file alone if you know what you're doing (remember, they used to make firearms long before milling machines were commonly used..but files have ALWAYS been around :D)


J

JPglee1
04-10-2007, 5:57 PM
Now I just gotta figure out how to make a bullet button lock...


Just weld a tube to your magazine release housing. Make a stepped rod with a spring behind it that pushes the paddle front to back like on an HK...

Remove the exposed original release paddle from the mag release housing (bottom side)

Once you have your tube welded on the mag housing, you'd have a .30" hole (or whatever size) in the end of the tube allowing you to reach the spring loaded plunger.

When you depress the plunger, it slides into the tube further, allowing the taper on the plunger to slide against the mag release lever (inside the mag release housing) causing it to retract as the plunger is pushed inward...

It wouldn't look 100% OEM but it would work and wouldn't be all that hard to make work, especially if you thread the tube for an end cap with a .30" hole in it to make spring replacement easier (altho I personally would weld it up 100% solid and make it non removeable...)


Good luck. Send me .01% royalty when you get rich ;)


J

m1aowner
04-11-2007, 12:45 AM
Got any plans to build your own 1911?

The way Ive seen it done easiest is to make a small rip fence/jig for your drill press, and then use a keyway cutter in it to make the actual grooves. You can get keyway cutters in any size/shape imaginable if you know where to look (no im not telling you where)

http://www.docsmachine.com/milltool.jpg
keyway cutter

Basically you set the cutter in the drill press, get your measurements correct and you push the frame of the pistol along the table against your "rip fence" in successively deeper and deeper cuts as you progress.

http://ca.geocities.com/lglg.winn@rogers.com/Mill_1.jpg
If you use an X-Y axis table/vice it makes it much easier.

It CAN be done entirely with a file alone if you know what you're doing (remember, they used to make firearms long before milling machines were commonly used..but files have ALWAYS been around :D)


J