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nicki
03-06-2012, 1:09 PM
Most people who drive cars do have driver's licenses.

Currently right now if you are under 21, your driver's license is different than everyone over 21.

What would be the pros and cons to creating a special drivers license for prohibited people?

Bear in mind, special licenses for those who have been found guilty of something.

Nicki

paul0660
03-06-2012, 1:16 PM
What would be the pros and cons to creating a special drivers license for prohibited people?

That they can become unprohibited. You can't get younger.

IVC
03-06-2012, 1:19 PM
"Prohibited" is just a category of people and is not connected to the operation of a vehicle. Imagine if other "properties" were put on the license, e.g., blue for D, red for R.

mej16489
03-06-2012, 1:26 PM
Scarlet Letter Syndrome...

One of the CLEO cronies in LA, I can't remember if it was Baca or Beck, wanted to issue Driver's Licenses to Illegals and put an "I" on them so that they wouldn't be required to impound their cars for being unlicensed.

Ubermcoupe
03-06-2012, 1:32 PM
Soo... is the end goal to turn a normal DL into a FOID card??? :shrug:

RP1911
03-06-2012, 2:08 PM
We had relegion, ethnicity, and district on our ID cards back when I was in Lebanon.

A lot of people were slaughtered based on what was on their ID card.

meaty-btz
03-06-2012, 2:18 PM
We had relegion, ethnicity, and district on our ID cards back when I was in Lebanon.

A lot of people were slaughtered based on what was on their ID card.

Perfect example folks. Be very careful of what you want on your "state issued ID".

winnre
03-06-2012, 2:22 PM
In the military in the 80s if you shoplift you get "NO PX PRIVILEGES" stamped on your ID card. EVERYONE sees it. (I was an MP)

meaty-btz
03-06-2012, 2:24 PM
In the military in the 80s if you shoplift you get "NO PX PRIVILEGES" stamped on your ID card. EVERYONE sees it. (I was an MP)

I know this is somewhat naive of a question but why the hell would you shoplift from the PX?!?

Curley Red
03-06-2012, 2:26 PM
"Prohibited" is just a category of people and is not connected to the operation of a vehicle. Imagine if other "properties" were put on the license, e.g., blue for D, red for R.

Would mine be green for independent? If so I am ok with that.

ZirconJohn
03-06-2012, 2:31 PM
Green Card ^^^ ? :shrug:

nickyrr
03-06-2012, 2:34 PM
I know this is somewhat naive of a question but why the hell would you shoplift from the PX?!?

Bec people think they can get away with it.. and some do.. I remember a few lower ranking individual selling brand new cds, batteries and what not for like 5 bucks and still have the PX tag on the items and theyre claiming it was bought otside and paid for

nicki
03-06-2012, 2:49 PM
My intent is not to create a FOID card for just gun owners, rather it is to create a firearms prohibition card on prohibited people who have through their own actions put themselves in that class of people.

We have nationwide insta check where everone now goes through the same background check. So, what is the compelling reason a resident of california can't buy a handgun while visiting alabama or texas?

If we have a universal prohibition stamp on prohibited people and all gun sales are run through a background check, exactly what is the compelling government public safety interest in carry licenses?

Other states btw are tying their ccw permits to their drivers licenses so that if a cop pulls you over, they know you are a ccw holder.

Once the intitial hysteria on cops wears off, they realize they probably have a safe stop on traffic stops then with the general public.

Something like this could make it easier to get constitutional carry in many states.


Nicki

taperxz
03-06-2012, 2:58 PM
CADL already basically does what Nicki is saying with kids that are not old enough to drink. I think the license simply states 21 in 20xx or whatever?

kaligaran
03-06-2012, 3:00 PM
Other states btw are tying their ccw permits to their drivers licenses so that if a cop pulls you over, they know you are a ccw holder.

Once the intitial hysteria on cops wears off, they realize they probably have a safe stop on traffic stops then with the general public.

Note that only some states tie the CCW with the Drivers License. I'm only aware of a small few, I think they are the exception but I could be wrong.

For those states, having them linked doesn't tell the LEO who's driving the car or who the passengers are. All it tells them is if the registered owner of said car is a CCW holder which (in my opinion) wouldn't make a traffic stop any safer.
Disclaimer: I am not an LEO.

Edited to add: I am making an assumption that by running the plate, a cop could easily cross-reference the registered owner's name against the drivers license database to pull up their DL.

taperxz
03-06-2012, 3:16 PM
Note that only some states tie the CCW with the Drivers License. I'm only aware of a small few, I think they are the exception but I could be wrong.

For those states, having them linked doesn't tell the LEO who's driving the car or who the passengers are. All it tells them is if the registered owner of said car is a CCW holder which (in my opinion) wouldn't make a traffic stop any safer.
Disclaimer: I am not an LEO.

I think you need to fix this^^ DL does not show owner of the car. The registration does.

SilverTauron
03-06-2012, 3:19 PM
Most people who drive cars do have driver's licenses.

Currently right now if you are under 21, your driver's license is different than everyone over 21.

What would be the pros and cons to creating a special drivers license for prohibited people?

Bear in mind, special licenses for those who have been found guilty of something.

Nicki
Because fake ID's can be made just as easily as fake money. Indeed, most LEOs would know the difference, but Joe Gun dealer has enough to worry about without needing to vet people's IDs for a "prohibited" tag.

The second dilemma with this is what happens when-not if- the authorities **** up. DMV says you're prohibited because you were arrested for event X. You say that's not you. DMV says tough cookies, call the Attorney General. Cue sad music as you, the innocent citizen, run around to ensure you can get the correct ID.Until you do the legwork, no gun or civil rights for you.

Its not uncommon for people who have names similar to convicted felons to be denied at the point of sale because NICS 'thinks' they're the same person.

Meanwhile,Joe Vato buys an AK from his gangster friend and its business as usual for the criminals.

SilverTauron
03-06-2012, 3:24 PM
My intent is not to create a FOID card for just gun owners, rather it is to create a firearms prohibition card on prohibited people who have through their own actions put themselves in that class of people.

We have nationwide insta check where everone now goes through the same background check. So, what is the compelling reason a resident of california can't buy a handgun while visiting alabama or texas?

If we have a universal prohibition stamp on prohibited people and all gun sales are run through a background check, exactly what is the compelling government public safety interest in carry licenses?

Other states btw are tying their ccw permits to their drivers licenses so that if a cop pulls you over, they know you are a ccw holder.

Once the intitial hysteria on cops wears off, they realize they probably have a safe stop on traffic stops then with the general public.

Something like this could make it easier to get constitutional carry in many states.


Nicki

We don't have such a system in place with the DL showing CCW status here in South Dakota , and constitutional carry just recently passed.

The NICS background check system is someone's idea of a comedy. Criminals do not buy guns in stores legally, they either borrow them from a family member, steal them from a family member or friend, buy one from a family member or friend, borrow a gun from another criminal, or deal with a corrupt gun store employee-and make no mistake, the latter does exist just like there are corrupt laywers and corrupt building contractors. If a crook can't get a gun through these vehicles, they'll ask their girlfriend/wife to process the 4473 for them. Lady friend with a clean record walks in , fills out 4473, buys gun, walks out and hands it to Joe Gangbanger and off they go.

We cannot prevent criminals from being armed any more than we can stop the sunrise from rising. No ID card is going to change this fact.

taperxz
03-06-2012, 3:26 PM
Because fake ID's can be made just as easily as fake money. Indeed, most LEOs would know the difference, but Joe Gun dealer has enough to worry about without needing to vet people's IDs for a "prohibited" tag.

The second dilemma with this is what happens when-not if- the authorities **** up. DMV says you're prohibited because you were arrested for event X. You say that's not you. DMV says tough cookies, call the Attorney General. Cue sad music as you, the innocent citizen, run around to ensure you can get the correct ID.Until you do the legwork, no gun or civil rights for you.

Its not uncommon for people who have names similar to convicted felons to be denied at the point of sale because NICS 'thinks' they're the same person.

Meanwhile,Joe Vato buys an AK from his gangster friend and its business as usual for the criminals.

Better to have this happen and know about it than have to find out the hard way. If you go to buy a firearm isn't this what happens anyway?

kaligaran
03-06-2012, 3:31 PM
I think you need to fix this^^ DL does not show owner of the car. The registration does.

Yes you are correct, I was making an assumption that by running the plate, a cop could easily cross-reference the registered owner's name against the drivers license database to pull up their DL.

Untamed1972
03-06-2012, 3:35 PM
Why not just tattoo "2A" in a circle with a slash thru it on their forehead.

The problem with the ID card is...what if they dont carry it on them?

Tattoos are forever! LOL

Ding126
03-06-2012, 3:35 PM
It would never fly.

ClarenceBoddicker
03-06-2012, 4:08 PM
Most people who drive cars do have driver's licenses.

Currently right now if you are under 21, your driver's license is different than everyone over 21.

What would be the pros and cons to creating a special drivers license for prohibited people?

Bear in mind, special licenses for those who have been found guilty of something.

The 16/18/21 YO deal is a CA taxpayer boondoggle to help dumb down LEO's & the stop n go and liquor store employees, who apparently have trouble reading a non color coded ID.

There would be no pros at all, as everybody's permanent record gets run thru a SCMODS. The cons would be many. A new waste of taxpayer dollars & being plainly un-Constitutional. There is no Constitutional provisions for "prohibited" people, for gun rights or anything else. The exception, of course is the natural born citizen requirement to be POTUS. The problem with so called "prohibited" people running around committing crimes, is that citizens have willfully abandoned their right to life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness for the dubious "safety" of the Police State occupation force. Americans decided to outsource their personal safety responsibilities to a contractor, with no performance or fiscal accountability. We now have a tremendously expensive "justice" system (courts & LE) that in effect protects the less than 1% of the population that commits crime, from the 99% who are the victims. Yes we are paying a premium to keep criminals alive, well & living among us. Job Security was the old buzz word. The asinine part is that this mostly worthless "justice" system is largely immune from the vast amount of damage they do. The "wise" SCOTUS has even ruled against citizens on that.

Back to these "prohibited" people, if they commit a crime make the punishment so tough that they will not want to ever set foot into a jail or prison again. Jails & prisons should not be taxpayer funded resorts for the dregs of society and make work projects for the otherwise unemployable as unfathomably expensive baby sitters. Victim rights should always trump criminal or court/LE "rights", even before the crime is committed. If you cause a $100 loss to someone, you must pay off that $100 before you are released. Of course after paying the victim 1st, then you must pay the court & jail housing costs before you are released. Banishment has worked very well in the past. If you commit crime, you shall be banished from the state you harmed. If you are foolish enough to get banned from all 50 states, then you are no longer a US citizen & get deported. Once they have served their harsh time, they should have all rights restored. Prisons should be reserved for the worst offenders. The war on drugs is a sham & needs to end ASAP. For the non capitol offenses, the time should fit the crime. The incarcerated shall not get a free life behind bars. They must work for any privileges, after paying for their housing.

The mentally disabled should be taken care of, not forced into homelessness. A society is judged by how it treats its most vulnerable members. Reagen's signing the LPS act has only harmed America.

BTW, not sure if you know this but the whole concept of being a felon after you serve your debt to society ("prohibited" person) is rooted in the post civil war Jim Crow laws (now banned) to control African Americans. Now the Police State/Prision Industrial Complex is expanding it to include the mid to lower middle classes.

The Original Godfather
03-06-2012, 10:12 PM
I'm against it. Why? Because it would be the beginning of more government intrusion and regulation. Besides, not ever "prohibited" person wants a firearm, yet now they have to live the scarlet on their I'd for something they don't even want (buying a gun).

That would be like putting a "prohibited" mark on someones credit card for everyone to see whenever they make a purchase because they have bad credit. Yet, the mark is put there to let mortgage companies know you have bad credit, yet that person may not even want to buy a house anyway, yet now the cashier at the rocery store knows...

Rhythm of Life
03-06-2012, 10:39 PM
I don't commit felonies and other things to become prohibited.

Wouldn't mind seeing a big "F" stamped on all felons' IDs.

IVC
03-06-2012, 10:59 PM
I don't commit felonies and other things to become prohibited.

Wouldn't mind seeing a big "F" stamped on all felons' IDs.

And that's how we lose freedom. A cut at a time. Cowboy shooters didn't use "them tupperware guns" and didn't mind them being listed explicitly in "them roster". As long as it affected someone else.

Just because something doesn't affect us individually, doesn't make restrictions right. I thought we would learn by now. Jews had some letters stamped on their ID-s not so long ago in Europe and it didn't end well.

Curley Red
03-07-2012, 7:27 AM
Green Card ^^^ ? :shrug:

Now that is funny, I didn't even think of that which I should have since I was born and raised in Santa Ana which has tons of people with green cards.

Liberty1
03-07-2012, 8:21 AM
I'd rather have truely dangerous persons locked up longer and repeal GCA 1934/1968/1986 so we can without hassle get our self defense tools. I'd rather eliminate driver's licenses for all and deal directly with the immigration questions. I'd rather get the government out of the marriage regulation business then to see all couples equally controlled.

Wherryj
03-07-2012, 10:17 AM
Perfect example folks. Be very careful of what you want on your "state issued ID".

"Show us your papers!"

rudynix
03-07-2012, 6:45 PM
We don't have such a system in place with the DL showing CCW status here in South Dakota , and constitutional carry just recently passed.

The NICS background check system is someone's idea of a comedy. Criminals do not buy guns in stores legally, they either borrow them from a family member, steal them from a family member or friend, buy one from a family member or friend, borrow a gun from another criminal, or deal with a corrupt gun store employee-and make no mistake, the latter does exist just like there are corrupt laywers and corrupt building contractors. If a crook can't get a gun through these vehicles, they'll ask their girlfriend/wife to process the 4473 for them. Lady friend with a clean record walks in , fills out 4473, buys gun, walks out and hands it to Joe Gangbanger and off they go.

We cannot prevent criminals from being armed any more than we can stop the sunrise from rising. No ID card is going to change this fact.

Most of the gun laws in this State is just feel good legislation. Created to show the public that they are doing something to fight crime. In reality, they only effect law abiding citizens because criminals don't abide by the law.

rp55
03-08-2012, 9:21 AM
I know this is somewhat naive of a question but why the hell would you shoplift from the PX?!?

Womens clothing. (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/28/us/acting-army-secretary-accused-of-shoplifing-is-placed-on-leave.html) :eek:

The Original Godfather
03-08-2012, 10:34 AM
Womens clothing. (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/28/us/acting-army-secretary-accused-of-shoplifing-is-placed-on-leave.html) :eek:

As my brother would say in a situation like this, "Pfft, it was the Army Sec. No wonder..." :rolleyes:


:p

SFgiants105
03-08-2012, 10:35 AM
We should make all the Jews wear Star of David patches.

Harrison_Bergeron
03-08-2012, 12:26 PM
CADL already basically does what Nicki is saying with kids that are not old enough to drink. I think the license simply states 21 in 20xx or whatever?

The picture is on the right side until you turn 21, then it goes to the left.

---

The problem with this idea is that it would make it so that people who have no business knowing that people are "prohibited" would still get that information. The guy at the will-call counter checking IDs before handing over merchandise has no business knowing that you are a felon, have been accused of domestic violence, or were 5150ed.

rugershooter
03-08-2012, 1:52 PM
I don't commit felonies and other things to become prohibited.

Wouldn't mind seeing a big "F" stamped on all felons' IDs.

Correction: You haven't been convicted of felonies and other things to become prohibited. I'd bet a month's salary that you have committed felonies, but simply haven't been convicted.

BTW, that attitude is the same type of thinking that has allowed many of the gun laws we currently have. It's also the same thinking that got the support of gun owners in England for their gun bans.

Jason P
03-08-2012, 2:07 PM
Why not put prohibited people in a dinghy off the coast and deport them with illegals. Not able to follow the rules, get out. Not able to be trusted with freedom, get out. Just spit-balling...

shy 7th
03-08-2012, 3:23 PM
Why not put prohibited people in a dinghy off the coast and deport them with illegals. Not able to follow the rules, get out. Not able to be trusted with freedom, get out. Just spit-balling...

Because you can become prohibited for innocent (err, semi-innocent) things...

New mother gets a little postpartum loopy and is 5105'd. Once the hormones wear off she'll be fine, but she's now prohibitted.

Rebelious teenager threatens suicide to "teach his parents not to post on his facebook wall"... 5150... no more guns.


eta: had you said "violent felons" I would totally agree with you.

SilverTauron
03-08-2012, 5:13 PM
Because you can become prohibited for innocent (err, semi-innocent) things...

New mother gets a little postpartum loopy and is 5105'd. Once the hormones wear off she'll be fine, but she's now prohibitted.

Rebelious teenager threatens suicide to "teach his parents not to post on his facebook wall"... 5150... no more guns.

.

Should a certain Senator Feinstein get on the Mental Heath committee, the manifestation would look something like this.

"Speeding recklessly implies psychological instability as driving 90 MPH is suicidal, thus an automatic 5150 will be issued"

"Playing Call of Duty MW is a sign of repressed homicidal tendencies. A 5150 acknowledgement will be issued with each video game sold".

Give the left an inch, and they will take a deep space parsec.

PPQ
03-08-2012, 6:47 PM
I listen to the scanner from time to time...When a LEO runs your DL number, dispatch will come back with among other things, that you have "Firearms Entries". I assume that means firearms registered to you.

They will also inform the LEO about the convictions on your record before they ever come back near your vehicle.

The whole idea of a "Prohibited Person ID" is verrrry Big Brother to me...

IdahoF350
03-08-2012, 6:58 PM
There are definitely pros and cons to identification marks or even just mag strip data. There are some instances where people need to be prohibited from making purchases. The current system with respect to firearms purchases is adequate, because as stated, people who intend to commit a crime won't legally obtain anyway.

I like the idea of forehead tattoos, very Inglorious Basterds! We like our felons in uniforms, so to speak...

Andy Taylor
03-09-2012, 5:58 AM
We had relegion, ethnicity, and district on our ID cards back when I was in Lebanon.

A lot of people were slaughtered based on what was on their ID card.

Exactly. Those who think it can't happen here, do not study history.