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Stonewalker
03-06-2012, 11:24 AM
First AR build here. A group of coworkers and I are going to be finishing a bunch of 80% lowers. I bought two and I'm going to be building one rifle up for the time being. Anyways, on to the good stuff: I'm going with an A3-style upper and only Iron Sights for the time being. Later on I'd like to put some sort of minor optics on it but I want to keep the irons.

To be a little more specific, I'd like a setup similar to the Steyr AUG. I want to be able to switch from optics to irons without having to change the rifle in any way. Just move my head over. Can I get any recommendations on setups? Are there any A3 conventions that I need to be aware of that might conflict with the setup I want to use?

Thanks guys. Any advice/experience is welcome!

bender152
03-06-2012, 11:50 AM
I don't know about angled mounts for your optics, but they do have them for irons.

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/policestuff_2150_37386154-tfb.jpg

G60
03-06-2012, 1:06 PM
What type of optic?

Sturnovik
03-06-2012, 1:10 PM
First AR build here. A group of coworkers and I are going to be finishing a bunch of 80% lowers. I bought two and I'm going to be building one rifle up for the time being. Anyways, on to the good stuff: I'm going with an A3-style upper and only Iron Sights for the time being. Later on I'd like to put some sort of minor optics on it but I want to keep the irons.

To be a little more specific, I'd like a setup similar to the Steyr AUG. I want to be able to switch from optics to irons without having to change the rifle in any way. Just move my head over. Can I get any recommendations on setups? Are there any A3 conventions that I need to be aware of that might conflict with the setup I want to use?

Thanks guys. Any advice/experience is welcome!

Good design, I got to handle one of those once, its nice having irons on top or close by.

Stonewalker
03-06-2012, 2:08 PM
I don't know about angled mounts for your optics, but they do have them for irons.


If possible, I really don't want to have angled irons. I would prefer the optics to be offset and keep the irons copacetic/ straight up and down.

What type of optic?

That is yet to be determined, but likely some sort of small conventional scope. I would love to keep the profile as small as a Soviet PU scope, but be good for 200-300 yards. I realize I'm using uninformed nomenclature, but please work with me here as I'm just started to read and learn about optics and the AR platform.

Good design, I got to handle one of those once, its nice having irons on top or close by.

How were the optics set up? I would prefer to have some sort of elevator ring or something that lifts the optics up by 1" or so, and keeps a regular iron sight usable.

RuggedJay
03-06-2012, 2:12 PM
u need to go out and try different setups and see what works for u.

Sturnovik
03-06-2012, 2:49 PM
How were the optics set up? I would prefer to have some sort of elevator ring or something that lifts the optics up by 1" or so, and keeps a regular iron sight usable.[/QUOTE]

I'd take show you the picture of when I held it and stuff but I'm unable to find it. It was a donut reticule when I shot it and molded into the steel that houses the scope was the iron sights. They weren't by any means precise, I'd say 50 yards or less, 100 if your good, and you could easily hit a man sized target. They were a very short sight radius, but no batteries which is nice.

Only picture on google I could find. http://steyr-aug.com/313a2rs.jpg.

Look carefully, you'll see there very low profile for what they are. You literally raise your head a 1/4 inch from where you saw through your scope and bam, iron sights.

Stonewalker
03-06-2012, 2:56 PM
How were the optics set up? I would prefer to have some sort of elevator ring or something that lifts the optics up by 1" or so, and keeps a regular iron sight usable.

I'd take show you the picture of when I held it and stuff but I'm unable to find it. It was a donut reticule when I shot it and molded into the steel that houses the scope was the iron sights. They weren't by any means precise, I'd say 50 yards or less, 100 if your good, and you could easily hit a man sized target. They were a very short sight radius, but no batteries which is nice.

Only picture on google I could find. http://steyr-aug.com/313a2rs.jpg.

Look carefully, you'll see there very low profile for what they are. You literally raise your head a 1/4 inch from where you saw through your scope and bam, iron sights.[/QUOTE]

Hm... ok this gives me an idea that I hadn't considered before. I wonder if there is any scope/optics out there that has adjustable front and rear iron sights built on top?

cabinetguy
03-06-2012, 2:56 PM
A lot optics, like the aimpoint and eotech can cowitness your irons, you should look into that

Sturnovik
03-06-2012, 2:59 PM
I'd take show you the picture of when I held it and stuff but I'm unable to find it. It was a donut reticule when I shot it and molded into the steel that houses the scope was the iron sights. They weren't by any means precise, I'd say 50 yards or less, 100 if your good, and you could easily hit a man sized target. They were a very short sight radius, but no batteries which is nice.

Only picture on google I could find. http://steyr-aug.com/313a2rs.jpg.

Look carefully, you'll see there very low profile for what they are. You literally raise your head a 1/4 inch from where you saw through your scope and bam, iron sights.

Hm... ok this gives me an idea that I hadn't considered before. I wonder if there is any scope/optics out there that has adjustable front and rear iron sights built on top?[/QUOTE]

Yea I liked it, up close it was very nice, and since it was built into hte sight, its already zeroed (assuming that your optic was the iron sights will be).

I dont know any brands that do it, I think on remtek it says the name of the company that makes the scope for the AUG though.

SuperSet
03-06-2012, 3:10 PM
If you're dead set on that type of optic combination, the closest thing would be the A2 carry handle with ACOG/Compact ACOG on top. You can transition from scope to irons just by lowering your head.
But, very few shooters run this setup anymore. Most have moved to an absolute or lower 1/3 cowitness setup with red dot sights. You can't do this with scopes, however.

Stonewalker
03-06-2012, 3:54 PM
If you're dead set on that type of optic combination, the closest thing would be the A2 carry handle with ACOG/Compact ACOG on top. You can transition from scope to irons just by lowering your head.
But, very few shooters run this setup anymore. Most have moved to an absolute or lower 1/3 cowitness setup with red dot sights. You can't do this with scopes, however.

Three things:
(1) Why don't many shooters run this setup anymore? What are its disadvantages?

(2) I thought that an A2 carry handle's rear sight would be over-ridden if you mounted any optics on top. If I'm incorrect here, then an A2 carry handle + scope/ACOG on top seems like the best way to go for me. Although, I really don't like how the A2 carry handle looks or feels - I was wondering if there is some other type of mounting system I could use that would also facilitate regular iron sights.

(3) I'm really looking for a small scope that will facilitate 2-300 yard battle accuracy, not red dot. The appropriate ACOG might fit the bill.

SuperSet
03-06-2012, 4:02 PM
1. Largely, shooters and manufacturers have coalesced around the A3 flattop. The optic goes in the middle and iron sights in front and rear. With this setup, you can flip up either or both iron sights (cowitness) for additional redundancy should you desire. Optics are much more reliable compared to the time the A2 setup was introduced.
2. I think that's your best setup for what you want. A2 + Compact ACOG/ACOG. The cheekweld will be high (~3.75" high above bore).
3. The ACOG NSN has integrated iron sights on the scope. They're crude (i.e. crap) but get the job done if you're point shooting.

proclone1
03-06-2012, 4:06 PM
Good design, I got to handle one of those once, its nice having irons on top or close by.

the angled rail-mounted irons are LOL-expensive.

hnoppenberger
03-06-2012, 4:12 PM
OP- welcome to the mindscrew that is options on an ar-15.
heres what you want, its what im putting together right now.

Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x24 (30mm tube)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4489614197_b6a218ca0a_o.jpg

heres the reticle (on 1x) - A good picture showing how big the 'eye box' is on this scope. you dont have to even be
close to centered to get a good sight picture.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2994334636_619c1788e8.jpg

you can still have BUIS mounted, and use it as a primary optic. on 1 power it will be almost as fast as a aimpoint/eotech. on 4 power it will be just like a ta31 acog. Remember, no optic or option is perfect. I would get over the idea of offset optics or irons, ive tried it and its lame (for me). also lame is putting a red dot on top of a scope like the doctor/acog combo. you have to move your head so far off a good cheek weld to use and it slows you down way too much.
also remember that extreme close range engagement will be won with intuitive shooting- if your using your sights at 5 yards or closer IMO you will be dead- just point and shoot.

milotrain
03-06-2012, 4:14 PM
A lot of people don't realize that they can be battle accurate to 300 yards with irons no problem. If you want a scope cool, but if you just want accuracy at 300 yards then there is no need. With a little correct practice you can make 13" groups at 300 yards with irons, and that's nowhere near the upper limit of irons.

hnoppenberger
03-06-2012, 4:18 PM
Ah, actually there is the perfect optics for a carbine. the elcan specter dr.
its 1x/4x with built in buis, and has the illumination of an aimpoint with BDC like an acog.
problem is its 2 grand.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1033111

hnoppenberger
03-06-2012, 4:24 PM
A lot of people don't realize that they can be battle accurate to 300 yards with irons no problem. If you want a scope cool, but if you just want accuracy at 300 yards then there is no need. With a little correct practice you can make 13" groups at 300 yards with irons, and that's nowhere near the upper limit of irons.

Yes very true but target ID gets hard at those ranges. I like the optic to help figure out whats out there and what to shoot. Irons also need 20/20 vision to get the best out of them. Running a match or class with irons will limit your potential as well, it will slow you down.

Stonewalker
03-06-2012, 4:27 PM
OP- welcome to the mindscrew that is options on an ar-15.
heres what you want, its what im putting together right now.

Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x24 (30mm tube)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4489614197_b6a218ca0a_o.jpg

heres the reticle (on 1x) - A good picture showing how big the 'eye box' is on this scope. you dont have to even be
close to centered to get a good sight picture.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2994334636_619c1788e8.jpg

you can still have BUIS mounted, and use it as a primary optic. on 1 power it will be almost as fast as a aimpoint/eotech. on 4 power it will be just like a ta31 acog. Remember, no optic or option is perfect. I would get over the idea of offset optics or irons, ive tried it and its lame (for me). also lame is putting a red dot on top of a scope like the doctor/acog combo. you have to move your head so far off a good cheek weld to use and it slows you down way too much.
also remember that extreme close range engagement will be won with intuitive shooting- if your using your sights at 5 yards or closer IMO you will be dead- just point and shoot.

I forgot to mention that I don't want a battery/energy-dependant optics option. If I'm reading your comments correctly, I'm thinking that I may just want to for-go optics altogether on this build. It sounds like you need to build either a scoped-AR15 (long range) OR an iron/reddot sight (short range)

Long range builds seem like they can't effectively incorporate precise iron sights. By precise I mean accurate to 200-300 yards. I hope I am wrong!

A lot of people don't realize that they can be battle accurate to 300 yards with irons no problem. If you want a scope cool, but if you just want accuracy at 300 yards then there is no need. With a little correct practice you can make 13" groups at 300 yards with irons, and that's nowhere near the upper limit of irons.

Thanks for your input! One thing is for sure, I'm starting my build with iron sights only. I want to practice with iron sights so I can be effective at 100-300 yards. I own a pristine M1 Carbine (a 4 MOA carbine) and a pretty good Mosin Nagant M38 Izhevsk (no idea how accurate, I haven't played with it much yet). I'm pretty good with the M1 Carbine though, and I understand that AR15s can be much more accurate with iron sights than M1 Carbines.

Anyways, I will be practicing with iron sights long before I put any kind of optics on it. So I guess the thing I'm really after at this point is:
(1) An excellent set of iron sights and
(2) that won't be infringed if put optics on top of them somehow later on.

negolien
03-06-2012, 4:34 PM
I don't know about angled mounts for your optics, but they do have them for irons.

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/policestuff_2150_37386154-tfb.jpg

That's very popular. I personally use a reflex on top of my scope or my eotech xps with the Irons 100%co-witnessed.

hnoppenberger
03-06-2012, 4:37 PM
no batterys on accupoints. tritium for nighttime, fiber optics for day.

Sounds like you need to build an upper with just a2 sights, and build another upper for optics.

You can get an LMT 'tactical' a2 rear sight, then you will have rail real estate for a tall red dot if you choose, but unless you go with a folding rear, you wont be able to run a magnified optic, and folding sights are not the absolute best when it comes to irons.

G60
03-06-2012, 5:17 PM
Go with LMT or Troy irons depending if you want fixed or folded.

Both won't interfere with a red dot, you may want the folding rear if youre going to put a magnified optic on.

milotrain
03-06-2012, 5:52 PM
White Oak sells a cary handle (http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17720) with a very nice national match sight. You could easily just put one of those on and then switch to a optics when you felt like it (nice thing about flat tops). Also if you get it pinned for the extra $50 you'll be able to sell it for damn near what you bought it for if you ever want to. Way more quality and accuracy than you need with your desired function but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Get (and read!) Jim Owens book "Sight Alignment, Trigger Control & The Big Lie" and you'll shoot a lot better than you thought you could.

Stonewalker
03-06-2012, 8:59 PM
White Oak sells a cary handle (http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17720) with a very nice national match sight. You could easily just put one of those on and then switch to a optics when you felt like it (nice thing about flat tops). Also if you get it pinned for the extra $50 you'll be able to sell it for damn near what you bought it for if you ever want to. Way more quality and accuracy than you need with your desired function but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Get (and read!) Jim Owens book "Sight Alignment, Trigger Control & The Big Lie" and you'll shoot a lot better than you thought you could.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "pinning"? Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll look into. I'm always looking for good reads on guns/rights/shooting.

Arnelcheeze
03-06-2012, 11:19 PM
ACOG with an RMR on top
http://www.takepointgear.com/product_images/s/642/TA31F-RMR_additional_popup_1__55445_zoom.jpg

Sturnovik
03-07-2012, 7:04 AM
OP- welcome to the mindscrew that is options on an ar-15.
heres what you want, its what im putting together right now.

Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x24 (30mm tube)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4489614197_b6a218ca0a_o.jpg

heres the reticle (on 1x) - A good picture showing how big the 'eye box' is on this scope. you dont have to even be
close to centered to get a good sight picture.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2994334636_619c1788e8.jpg

you can still have BUIS mounted, and use it as a primary optic. on 1 power it will be almost as fast as a aimpoint/eotech. on 4 power it will be just like a ta31 acog. Remember, no optic or option is perfect. I would get over the idea of offset optics or irons, ive tried it and its lame (for me). also lame is putting a red dot on top of a scope like the doctor/acog combo. you have to move your head so far off a good cheek weld to use and it slows you down way too much.
also remember that extreme close range engagement will be won with intuitive shooting- if your using your sights at 5 yards or closer IMO you will be dead- just point and shoot.

That is one sweet rig. I like it. Wish those accupoints were so expensive.

It even seems like it functions as a reasonable reflex sight considering how close you are to those targets and how far away you can be from the scope.

milotrain
03-07-2012, 7:50 AM
Forgive my ignorance, but what is "pinning"? Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll look into. I'm always looking for good reads on guns/rights/shooting.

Pinning is not necessary on all but match rifles. You'll find that all stock ar sights twist just a bit on their elevation axis. Pinning is locking the sight in place with two precision pins so that it won't twist at all and just ride straight up and down.