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View Full Version : How to handle my RAWs to my kids


jbush
03-05-2012, 4:01 AM
I have 2 RAWs, both are listed on the appendixs as AWs. I was diagnosised with a illness that will not be recovering from. My 2 adult kids want my RAWs. I am assuming since they are listed guns that they cannot be converted to non RAWs and given to them. Is this true?

Option 2: I have a vacation house in Arizona. Can I take them there and give them to them and they will just have to use them there?

Other options???

sacto929
03-05-2012, 6:12 AM
It is my understanding, and I'm sure the smart guys will chime in soon, that the registered portion (AR/AK lowers, HK upper, etc.) needs to be destroyed, sold through a dealer with an AW-license or removed from the State within 90 days of your passing. If you have property in AZ, you're already a step ahead of the game, IMHO. The AW's could be taken and stored there and used out of CA. They can't return until our crazy AWB is overturned.

There is a link to inheritance issues in the CGF Wiki....

Shellshocker66
03-05-2012, 6:13 AM
Are the lowers listed?

I know this has been addressed before, and I'm not fully awake yet. But I do believe you can

1. Transfer out of state, or
2. Install a different lower, put on the BB if it has features, get magazines that hold less then 11 round, and make sure it has OAL of 30 inches.
3. And contact DoJ to un-register the RAW.

Here is one thread that addresses the same issue. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=508992

I think the big think is to make sure you get it de-registered beforehand so that your children don't run into any problems.

Hope that helped some and I will keep you in my prayers. Stay strong.

bwiese
03-05-2012, 8:48 AM
Please ignore much of the above.

I am sorry to hear of your situation but glad you are planning for your kids to get your guns.

Yes, listed guns are not modifiable (I won't count changing lowers - that's a new gun).

There are some special pathways however for RAWs to go to kids outside CA however...

1. Yeah, your kids can't inherit the RAWs in CA.

2. Lineal intrafamily xfer in CA is for Californians; their getting the RAWs inside AZ may (or may not) be
problematic under Fed law while you are alive (unclear if CA resident giving CA resident a gun in AZ is
copacetic w/Fed law).

And running thru an AZ FFL is problem since your CA resident kids have CA ID/residency.


3. Inheritance/bequest is a perfectly legal FEDERAL way to acquire guns without required use of an FFL
for transfers to cross state lines. Upon your passing your kids just keep the guns in AZ - those guns are
*theirs* per will/estate, they are already in AZ so no risk of transportation/moves, etc.


4. The kids can use them in AZ or whereever legal (other 47-some states). They cannot bring them
back into CA until court cases or legal changes take place.

taperxz
03-05-2012, 9:15 AM
Please ignore much of the ablve. I am sorry to hear of your situation but glad you are planning for your kids to get your guns. Yes, listed guns are not modifiable (I won't count changing lowers - that's a new gun). There are some special pathways however for RAWs to go to kids outside CA however... 1. Yeah, your kids can't inherit the RAWs in CA. 2. Intrafamily xfer in CA is for Californians; their getting the RAWs inside AZ may be problematic under Fed law while you are alive (unclear if CA resident giving CA resident a gun in AZ is copacetic w/Fed law). And running thru an AZ FFL is problem since your CA resident kids have CA ID/residency. 3. Inheritance/bequest is a perfectly legal FEDERAL way to acquire guns without required use of an FFL for transfers to cross state lines. Upon your passing your kids just keep the guns in AZ - those guns are *theirs*, they are already in AZ so no risk of transportation/moves, etc.

Sorry about the situation at hand. To clarify. Bill, should the weapons be taken to AZ PRIOR to the inevitable? Or is there a window for the family to take the weapons legally into AZ. Again, Very sorry to here the news.

Wherryj
03-05-2012, 9:32 AM
I have 2 RAWs, both are listed on the appendixs as AWs. I was diagnosised with a illness that will not be recovering from. My 2 adult kids want my RAWs. I am assuming since they are listed guns that they cannot be converted to non RAWs and given to them. Is this true?

Option 2: I have a vacation house in Arizona. Can I take them there and give them to them and they will just have to use them there?

Other options???

Sorry to hear about your condition.

Uxi
03-05-2012, 9:52 AM
Blatant infringement of not only the 2nd but basic property rights. I really wish there was a challenge on those grounds.

Condolences to the OP. Hope it all works out. I'll say a prayer for you.

sacto929
03-05-2012, 11:13 AM
I apologize to the OP for any hijack, and offer my condolences to you and your family for the inevitable.

Please ignore much of the ablve. I am sorry to hear of your situation but glad you are planning for your kids to get your guns. Yes, listed guns are not modifiable (I won't count changing lowers - that's a new gun). There are some special pathways however for RAWs to go to kids outside CA however... 1. Yeah, your kids can't inherit the RAWs in CA. 2. Intrafamily xfer in CA is for Californians; their getting the RAWs inside AZ may be problematic under Fed law while you are alive (unclear if CA resident giving CA resident a gun in AZ is copacetic w/Fed law). And running thru an AZ FFL is problem since your CA resident kids have CA ID/residency. 3. Inheritance/bequest is a perfectly legal FEDERAL way to acquire guns without required use of an FFL for transfers to cross state lines. Upon your passing your kids just keep the guns in AZ - those guns are *theirs*, they are already in AZ so no risk of transportation/moves, etc.

Bill,

I'd like to understand the subject better, so that I do not post any FUD in the future. Is it not allowable for the OPs adult children, upon his passing, to move the RAWs that they receive through inheritance out of state for safe keeping within the 90 day window allowed by CA law? If so, do they need to be stored at their residence, or will any secure storage work (i.e., private armory, safe at a buddy's house that the safe owner has the only access to, or at a vacation home, etc.)?

Thank you for your assistance. I hope this increases my knowledge and that of others facing this situation in the future.

jbush
03-05-2012, 11:40 AM
Same question as above. Do I need to get the RAWs to Arizona now or can my kids take them in the 90 days. There is that 20% chance the final treatments might work or get me some time, but I'm not a gambler and want to get my ducks in a row. These RAWs have been with me a long time and my 2 adult sons would greatly appreciate if I could pass them on, even if not in Cali.

Thanks everyone

bwiese
03-05-2012, 11:56 AM
Sorry about the situation at hand. To clarify. Bill, should the weapons be taken to AZ PRIOR to the inevitable?

Or is there a window for the family to take the weapons legally into AZ. Again, Very sorry to here the news.


1. It may be best for the registered owner to transport the RAWs to AZ
first and not wait for execution of estate.

2. There are provisions for executor to transport (or arrange transport
thru a $$$ CA FFL w/AW permit $$$).

The risk of executor transport is that a bad taillight could end up
triggering an AW charge because even when shown the paperwork
the cop may end up busting and situation gets messed up ("I don't understand this crap, gonna let the DA sort it out....")


3. The will should contain "Joe gets XXX gun, Jimmy gets YYY gun,
with transfers to comply with all Federal and California laws."

bwiese
03-05-2012, 12:03 PM
Bill,

Is it not allowable for the OPs adult children, upon his passing, to move the RAWs that they receive through inheritance out of state for safe keeping within the 90 day window allowed by CA law?


I believe it's the executor or executor agent.

Note that AWs cannot be shipped without use of a CA FFL w/AW permit.

The problem with an authorized executor etc transporting the AWs is a cop in a traffic stop for a busted tailling is gonna see "Not an OLL" and "Not registered to the person".

The value of the AWs will be eaten in bail fees etc.

CA DOJ tried to be very nasty in the past with CA FFL Frank Tabor for helping an executor with AWs. It cost him $10K. That's not likely to be repeated, but I think this situation calls for minimum drama.

If *I* were the executor I'd take the task on but that's because it's me, and I could deal with the situation.

I recommend to keep things simple a fast trip to AZ and safe storage there. Minimizes gun grief all around and lets more important things be thought about... perhaps turn it into a mini-getaway vacation, dunno.


If so, do they need to be stored at their residence, or will any secure storage work (i.e., private armory, safe at a buddy's house that the safe owner has the only access to, or at a vacation home, etc.)?

For safety if AWs are in CA when the estate/probate begins, I'd keep them safe & sound locked up in the original residence. Just minimizes complexity.

Gryff
03-05-2012, 12:07 PM
Same question as above. Do I need to get the RAWs to Arizona now or can my kids take them in the 90 days. There is that 20% chance the final treatments might work or get me some time, but I'm not a gambler and want to get my ducks in a row. These RAWs have been with me a long time and my 2 adult sons would greatly appreciate if I could pass them on, even if not in Cali.

I believe that you are the only person that can transport them legally.

bwiese
03-05-2012, 12:13 PM
Same question as above. Do I need to get the RAWs to Arizona now or can my kids take them in the 90 days. There is that 20% chance the final treatments might work or get me some time, but I'm not a gambler and want to get my ducks in a row. These RAWs have been with me a long time and my 2 adult sons would greatly appreciate if I could pass them on, even if not in Cali.


Jbush,

1. Man, I'm sorry to hear the news. Here's hoping a rabbit or two can be pulled out of a hat for some more time or a cure.

This is hard to talk about I know but I am glad you are gettng your ducks in a row like a good gunnie.


2. There would be advantage in risk-reduction to getting the guns to AZ
now. There, as I expressed above, is a nonzero risk that a drive to AZ
(or flight) etc. could have a 'traffic incident' where AWs are discovered,
are not OLLs, and the cop will end up either seizing guns and/or arresting
because the AWs are not registered and he will not want to mess with
estate details.

This could add expense and grief to the situation at a time when there
are many other priorities.


3. I lost my lovely GF Lizzie back in 2010 and learned a few other things
about estate matters outside of guns. REMEMBER THAT ALL YOUR
401K/IRA type ACCOUNTS SHOULD HAVE PROPER, UP-TO-DATE 'NAMED BENEFICIARIES.

Roughly, if you have a 401K/IRA without a named beneficiary it reverts to the will's control (or CA rules of intestate succession if no will, trust etc.) This will mean that disbursement of the account to heir(s) cannot be done income -tax-free: the account will be liquidated/distributed, and the only option is the income tax paid either by estate or by recipient.

By using named beneficiaries instead, these accounts can be rolled over into another tax free account so it can sit there earning money for Junior until he retires.

[You may perchance have ex-wives or ex-wive's kids on these accounts and you may well not want that either!!]

Depending on size of estate it may well be worth discussing with probate attorney and/or a SMART tax guy beforehand so the person with control of all the accounts (you) can make necessary changes that can't happen under estate administration.

bwiese
03-05-2012, 12:14 PM
I believe that you are the only person that can transport them legally.

There's a limited exemption for operation of law estate execution stuff for limited time period.

Falconis
03-05-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm sorry to hear of your situation Mr. Bush.

odysseus
03-05-2012, 12:19 PM
There's a limited exemption for operation of law estate execution stuff for limited time period.

Out of curiosity Bill, how long is that time period again (I think you talked about along time ago in a thread)? Sometimes too it takes a time (their are delays) from which an executor has control or even knowledge enough to begin execution of deceased's estate.

To OP: Best wishes in all of this and more.

newbee1111
03-05-2012, 2:17 PM
There's a limited exemption for operation of law estate execution stuff for limited time period.

Is it really limited? IANAL but I've been looking at this issue. Estates can drag on for years before they are resolved. A friend of mine passed away early last year and the estate is still being processed (lots of complex financial stuff and other issues). Until the executor is finished and the estate is resolved the RAW's should just be in the executor's possession. There is no maximum time on this. The 90 days clock doesn't start until the item is given to the inheritor.

I get that the DOJ wants to be dicks about this but the AWB law does allow the executor to possess the AW until it's its bequeathed.

(i) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to a person who is the executor or administrator of an estate that includes an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle registered under Section 12285 or that was possessed pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) which is disposed of as authorized by the probate court, if the disposition is otherwise permitted by this chapter.
(j) Subdivisions (b) and (c) shall not apply to a person who is the executor or administrator of an estate that includes an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle registered under Section 12285 or that was possessed pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (f), if the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle is possessed at a place set forth in paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 12285 or as authorized by the probate court.

SilverTauron
03-05-2012, 3:00 PM
The fly in the ointment here is the risk to the heirs after the OP's passing, should that take place. Police officers in places with complicated gun laws will not hang out on the side of the road to play legal scholar , so if law enforcement for any reason-such as a DUI stop, tailight violation, "security checkpoints", or mistaken identity because the OPs kids drive a car with the same color as a stickup man's getaway ride,find those firearms in the OP's kids' possession those weapons are history and so are the heirs.

Best case scenario once the bracelets come on is the RAW's are dumped in a government sponsored furnace in exchange for the DA dropping Assault Weapon Possession charges-IF the District Attorney is in a bargaining mood. If they're a liberal anti-firearm crusader with aspirations for higher office, the story can go down a very dark and expensive path.Probate court will be the least of anyone's concerns should this unlikely but possible outcome take place.


The best way to prevent all this potential disaster is to have the owner get the firearms legally out of state. Indeed, this process can be risky enough for the OP to do himself.

I used to live in Illinois, where each village has their own gun laws due to lack of state pre-emption. The cheapest way to win a firearm case in court at a liberal district is to not go there in the first place.

newbee1111
03-05-2012, 3:31 PM
Yea, that's the tricky part. If the heir's get the rifles in CA they become a big giant headache. So the safest thing is if the owner can take them out of state and leave them at the vacation house. The rifles should also be mentioned in the will and who they are going to.

If that can't happen then it might work to leave explicit instructions in the will that the executor will deliver the rifles to the vacation house and that's where the heirs will collect them. In either case the rifles (or at least their lower's) can never come back to California.

Sunday
03-06-2012, 11:15 AM
I would buy new lowers and just sit on the RAW lowers. FTS and those who make the laws

meaty-btz
03-06-2012, 11:23 AM
I am a complete know nothing about the process but would there be a way to keep them in california and available to the descendents if he used the NFA-Trust trick I see talked about from time to time on here?

SilverTauron
03-06-2012, 3:59 PM
I am a complete know nothing about the process but would there be a way to keep them in california and available to the descendents if he used the NFA-Trust trick I see talked about from time to time on here?

The purpose of the NFA -Trust is so that multiple people can handle NFA/class III items without being specifically named on the tax stamp.

California is a different bucket of fish, because once the Registered Assault Weapon was registered to the OP that's the only person state law says can *ever* legally own it. When the OP passes, be it ten years or 100 years from now, the guns have to be destroyed, transferred or sold out of state, or surrendered to police. This system is similar to how Canada handles their full auto firearms registration ;once the owner passes away the guns go directly to the government for destruction without compensation to the estate.

meaty-btz
03-06-2012, 4:15 PM
The purpose of the NFA -Trust is so that multiple people can handle NFA/class III items without being specifically named on the tax stamp.

California is a different bucket of fish, because once the Registered Assault Weapon was registered to the OP that's the only person state law says can *ever* legally own it. When the OP passes, be it ten years or 100 years from now, the guns have to be destroyed, transferred or sold out of state, or surrendered to police. This system is similar to how Canada handles their full auto firearms registration ;once the owner passes away the guns go directly to the government for destruction without compensation to the estate.

Thanks. Criminal. Absolutely criminal, but exactly what I have come to expect from this state.

bwiese
03-06-2012, 5:21 PM
I am a complete know nothing about the process but would there be a way to keep them in california and available to the descendents if he used the NFA-Trust trick I see talked about from time to time on here?

No.

NFA trusts are only relevant to NFA guns, and that's not even relevant if that NFA configuration is banned in CA (unless w/special DOJ permit). The only available trust-useful NFA configuration in CA is AOWs.

AW status is unrelated to to the above.

1. There were some joint registrations for family members living in same household. Long term, that's a problem - Junior would have to Fail To Launch and live with family at same address for decades until Pop keels over, then he could 'move'. Might work from a practical basis if large extended family lives on a giant ranch compound with multiple homes.

2. There were some AW folks that were smart enough to create legal 'associations' that owned/registered the guns and then people appear
to be able to join in/out of the association and it seems to be perpetuable (not 100% sure of details now, and irrelevant since this is no longer possible).

Madpyro
03-06-2012, 5:38 PM
jbush, prayers your way.

jbush
03-06-2012, 11:22 PM
To keep this simple. If I take the guns to my home in AZ, do I have to notify CA that the guns are no longer in CA, ang won't be coming back???

Thanks everyone!!!

Librarian
03-06-2012, 11:25 PM
To keep this simple. If I take the guns to my home in AZ, do I have to notify CA that the guns are no longer in CA, ang won't be coming back???

Thanks everyone!!!

No, not required. You may if you wish.

CA will just say 'good riddance'.

bwiese
03-06-2012, 11:28 PM
To keep this simple. If I take the guns to my home in AZ, do I have to notify CA that the guns are no longer in CA, ang won't be coming back???

No you don't. Those are YOUR guns, and Arizona is a FREE state.

Your California-resident kids should not take possession of the guns until estate action. Other than that you can just forget about things and move on to more important issues.

Please take care and I'm hoping some good luck can cross your path so you can stick around at least a litle longer. That you are in such a situation and are still thinking about these matters for your kids says a great deal about you and they should be very proud of you

sdfire
03-07-2012, 6:50 AM
I had a family member that was in a similar situation a couple of years ago. Before he passed, he and his sons took the lowers off the guns, and made new lowers together at a build party. Then reassembled the new guns. Problem solved. The old lowers were sold to family out of state, and kept safe for possible future use if the laws here ever change. the guns were AK and AR type rifles.

mag360
03-07-2012, 10:28 AM
We know there have been arrest lawsuits that are pending, but has their been an inheritance lawsuit, and if no, how come?

jbush
03-07-2012, 11:00 AM
I'm hopeing the next few treatments will buy me some time. There are things I'd like to do. I just built my first AR about 3 weeks ago and may never get to shoot it. I will get the guns to AZ asap to eliminate CA stronghold on my guns. Thanks everyone for the help and support

Ding126
03-07-2012, 11:04 AM
Wishing you the best. Good luck with your treatment. My thoughts have been with you today since I read your post this morning. It makes me rethink my life. Bless you and your family.

bwiese
03-12-2012, 9:22 PM
Best of luck, friend.

Enjoy what you can while you can and for as long as you can.

blakdawg
03-12-2012, 9:40 PM
We know there have been arrest lawsuits that are pending, but has their been an inheritance lawsuit, and if no, how come?

Probably not a big priority for anyone with funding. I'd sure prefer to see CCW's fixed and AW liberalization generally rather than burn a bunch of $ on this issue. The current situation is stupid, but can be approximately fixed with a new receiver or moving the guns out of state, which is cheap compared to attorney time.