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Random_Hero
03-02-2012, 4:24 PM
For those of us in California, a threaded barrel on our handguns is a no go. But what about a locking lug?

Like this:
http://50ae.net/collection/stg556/stg556-21-c.jpg

Fitting into a receiver like this:
http://50ae.net/collection/stg556/stg556-29-c.jpg

The images are for the removable barrel of the MSAR STG-556.
But if this was adapted to the front end of a barrel with a corespondingly designed compensator. It would technically be legal correct? As it is not a "threaded" design capable of accepting a flash suppressor or silencer. If it was milled in such a way to be specific to only a compensator like a key and incapable of having a suppressor or any AW violationing items installed.

What do you think?
=========================

Edit: To be clear this is not an attempt to circumvent the DOJ and break the law. I am simply attempting to find legal ways to install a compensator onto a 92FS.

Ubermcoupe
03-02-2012, 5:09 PM
I like it!

I would suggest PMing a mod to have this moved over to the 2A or the FFL. I am sure there have been a few FFLs who may have experimented doing something like this. :)

Random_Hero
03-02-2012, 5:40 PM
Pm'd a mod to move the thread. TY for the advice, new member to the forum.

Random_Hero
03-02-2012, 6:31 PM
A repost from Hangun Thread. Waiting for moderator to move that thread and or close it in lue of this one.
====================

For those of us in California, a threaded barrel on our handguns is a no go. But what about a locking lug?

Like this:
http://50ae.net/collection/stg556/stg556-21-c.jpg

Fitting into a receiver like this:
http://50ae.net/collection/stg556/stg556-29-c.jpg

The images are for the removable barrel of the MSAR STG-556.
But if this was adapted to the front end of a barrel with a corespondingly designed compensator. It would technically be legal correct? As it is not a "threaded" design capable of accepting a flash suppressor or silencer. If it was milled in such a way to be specific to only a compensator like a key and incapable of having a suppressor or any AW violationing items installed.

What do you think?
=========================

Edit: To be clear this is not an attempt to circumvent the DOJ and break the law. I am simply attempting to find legal ways to install a compensator onto a 92FS.

Librarian
03-02-2012, 7:16 PM
Why would a question on the interpretation of CA law be better in the FFL forum?

Off to 2A...

The issue is PC 30515 (4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.

(B) A second handgrip.

(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning the bearer’s hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.

(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.

Librarian
03-02-2012, 7:22 PM
Moved from FFL to 2A

Random_Hero
03-02-2012, 7:33 PM
Check. Thank for the assist.

Ubermcoupe
03-02-2012, 7:43 PM
Why would a question on the interpretation of CA law be better in the FFL forum?

Off to 2A...

The issue is PC 30515

Figured an FFL may have experimented with differing designs and may have done some research on finding a way to create a barrel tip that could accept muzzle devices.

Was I that far off?
:shrug:

resident-shooter
03-02-2012, 7:48 PM
derpa

slikna99
03-02-2012, 7:50 PM
I have a feeling that would be considered a type of threading, or that the law will be interpreted as having the capacity to accept a silencer.

Something along the lines of, a thread by any other name is still a thread.

I am also curious as to how it would be made to accept a compensator but not a supressor? Couldn't someone just mill a supressor to accept the same "key" you describe?

bigb0886
03-02-2012, 7:55 PM
Seems like it could pass. If not only just to prove how bad the laws are, maybe open the doors to new registration period? Doubt it as I am not a lawyer nor do I have any real idea how these things work. Either way, tagged.

Random_Hero
03-02-2012, 8:01 PM
They way my brain worked it out is this.

It wouldnt constituite as a threaded barrel because suppressors aren't made with those threads and mimicking those "threads." Would require custom tooling outside of what is commercially available.

In the same sense how pistols with threaded barrels but permamently affized thread protectors are legal, but simple tooling would remove the thread protector and expose a suppressor accepting barrel.

slikna99
03-02-2012, 8:14 PM
They way my brain worked it out is this.

It wouldnt constituite as a threaded barrel because suppressors aren't made with those threads and mimicking those "threads." Would require custom tooling outside of what is commercially available.

In the same sense how pistols with threaded barrels but permamently affized thread protectors are legal, but simple tooling would remove the thread protector and expose a suppressor accepting barrel.

I understand your logic behind this, but I think you could easily find yourself in legal trouble this way. The only reason that suppressors arent made with that pattern is because there is no pistol with a locking lug on the end of the barrel. I could all but assure you that if/when that happened, a company would/could mill a silencer to fit on it.

Though I really don't know for sure, experience would just tell me that someone would interpret this in an unfavorable way for someone with this kind of setup.

Librarian
03-02-2012, 8:43 PM
Speculation: since the law itself refers specifically to 'threaded', a method of attachment that does not use 'threads', by the letter of the law, would be OK.

That doesn't mean that it would be safe to do, considering the legal climate and level of knowledge/experience in firearms technology exhibited by (or, absent from) some prosecutorial agencies.

I don't see a very large cost/benefit ratio here. But that may be because I don't personally see any benefit at all; there's no reason for my lack of vision to be the conclusive argument.

Random_Hero
03-02-2012, 9:21 PM
My vision is simply to find a way to add a Compensator/bushing onto my 92fs. Pinning the comp is a no go, cuss' it would then be unable to be field stripped. I haven't found any alternative solution to my problem and this is at the moment the only plan of action I have.

Perhaps I'm onto something like the pioneers of the bullet button....and not a future felon...

cdtx2001
03-02-2012, 9:35 PM
====================

For those of us in California, a threaded barrel on our handguns is a no go.
=========================

Edit: To be clear this is not an attempt to circumvent the DOJ and break the law. I am simply attempting to find legal ways to install a compensator onto a 92FS.

Threaded barrels are OK on bullet button equipped semi auto hand guns.

Think of some way to put a mag lock on a Beretta and you're good to go.

Random_Hero
03-02-2012, 9:47 PM
I've thought about that too,but a "bullet button" on a 92fs its not a route i'd want to go.

Stoner
03-02-2012, 10:17 PM
How about using a 1911 style with the barrel bushing, instead of a 92f. That way any attachment on the front of the barrel need not be removed to field strip the weapon. Then use a suppressor attachment similar to the KAC type that attached with a somewhat shaped U pin system. I have no idea if it would work, just throwing it out there for general consumption.

Random_Hero
03-02-2012, 10:49 PM
How about using a 1911 style with the barrel bushing, instead of a 92f. That way any attachment on the front of the barrel need not be removed to field strip the weapon. Then use a suppressor attachment similar to the KAC type that attached with a somewhat shaped U pin system. I have no idea if it would work, just throwing it out there for general consumption.

The 1911 would be a simpler platform to work on, but life has decided to drop a 92FS into my lap and not a 1911.

But the U type suppressor from KAC. Thats pure genious I haven't even thought about that....and that would totally circumvent the threaded barrel issue since the barrel would just have a non descript groove at the tip.

bigcalidave
03-03-2012, 1:21 AM
I really thought I'd read something about the 3-lug system not being a good thing to have on a pistol here... Probably a while ago. If it's not a big deal, that would be the one you want to run. Plenty of suppressor choices for it already.

Can't really call this threaded.
http://www.pooshka.com/media/guns-for-sale/media001/0000011464/0000011464_A_1295514361.jpg

Kharn
03-03-2012, 3:07 AM
Why reinvent the wheel? The three-lug standard is widely used for SMGs and suppressors. The two biggest problems: A 3-lug flash hider costs $125 because of the complexity of the mechanism, and it is heavy so only a Beretta 92 has a decent chance of cycling with one.

ClarenceBoddicker
03-03-2012, 3:09 AM
What do you want threads or a lug system on your barrel for? Are you looking to add a: muzzle brake/compensator, barrel weight/extension, BFA (blank firing adapter), fake suppressor, flare/signal launcher, line throwing device, etc?

You could always come up with some oddball custom thread size & pitch that would not fit any other item out there. Think of something like a very coarse pitch (low threads per inch/mm) & a very odd thread profile. You would have to use some type of locking device with threads like that. You would have to choose a size that would make it impossible to cross thread something like a flash suppressor onto it. Kind of a risky undertaking, as there are many different thread sizes used for parts like that. At least CA DOJ does not have a tech branch with the man power & gun samples like ATF does, so the chance of them having an odd sized part to cross thread into a custom thread size is very slim. To the ATF's credit, at least they will treat you with respect & check out your sample you send in for their approval. You will get a yes or no in writing from them. Another idea would be to use a custom size interrupted threads. That would need a locking device also.

If you didn't need the barrel threaded, you could have a threaded extension welded onto the front of the slide. A threaded slide would not be a threaded barrel. The ATF called the AK-74 threaded front sight base a threaded barrel from 1994-2004, so I'm sure the CA DOJ could do the same thing. It would be fun to watch in court, how the lawyers would try to call a slide a barrel. That issue could be avoided with a notched or dovetailed mounting extension welded to the front of the slide. A custom slide could have all kinds of non threaded mounting points on the front.

cacop
03-03-2012, 10:23 AM
How is "threaded" defined in statutory or case law?

A non gun example is burglary. Simply it is to enter a certain type of building (listed in the law) with the intent to commit a theft or felony.

Now tell me what you think the defintion "to enter" is?

Random_Hero
03-03-2012, 1:09 PM
How is "threaded" defined in statutory or case law?

A non gun example is burglary. Simply it is to enter a certain type of building (listed in the law) with the intent to commit a theft or felony.

Now tell me what you think the defintion "to enter" is?

I'm a little confused as to what your getting at. But according to the PC a threaded barrel is as follows.

PC 30515
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.

And as far as I know, compensators and muzzle breaks are not cosidered a flash suppressor. So a thread accepting only a compensator would be legal??

cacop
03-03-2012, 1:20 PM
I'm a little confused as to what your getting at. But according to the PC a threaded barrel is as follows.

PC 30515
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.

And as far as I know, compensators and muzzle breaks are not cosidered a flash suppressor. So a thread accepting only a compensator would be legal??

What I am getting at is that they might define lugs as "threads."

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_interrupted_pic.jpg

Interrupted threads like the ones above kind of look like the lugs posted near the top of this thread.

Now the three lug barrels look less like threads but how do the courts interpret "threads?" Is there any case law?

slikna99
03-03-2012, 1:32 PM
What I am getting at is that they might define lugs as "threads."

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_interrupted_pic.jpg

Interrupted threads like the ones above kind of look like the lugs posted near the top of this thread.

Now the three lug barrels look less like threads but how do the courts interpret "threads?" Is there any case law?

This is basically what I said, but I guess it all depends.

If you look up the definition of a thread it states that its a helical groove... which a lug is not. I a feeling depending on who looks at it though, they might have other opinions.

Random_Hero
03-03-2012, 1:37 PM
Thats a very good point. I don't know of any case laws concerning that, but the apparent risk is enough to make me reconsider.


What about this approach, if I clamped the compensator onto the barrel through some sort of tension device on a non threaded barrel, that would definately be legal correct?

Basically I'm trying to find a CA legal way of building a Beretta 92fs Combat.

Already got a "Police Special" stamped 92fs, 1994 built and a gunsmith willing to work with me. Just need a design plan thats legal to use here.

slikna99
03-03-2012, 1:48 PM
I wonder if you could use a quick release type clamp like on a bike wheel haha

Random_Hero
03-03-2012, 2:53 PM
You mean like the KAC suppressor quick release deal?

The problem is, these are all good ideas. But the more "radical" I go the harder it is to find a gunsmith willing/capable of doing it.

That and its a Jarvis barrel on the line...

cacop
03-03-2012, 3:16 PM
Two thoughts on something other than a threaded barrel:

1. During the Fed AWB I remember muzzle devices for rifles being attached with set screws. Basically have the inside diameter of the device match very closely the outside diameter of the barrel. Then have 3-4 set screws to hold it in place.

2. when I had a .40 Hi Power I toyed with throwing in a .357 Sig barrel and compensating it by having a long barrel installed and then porting it.

Kharn
03-03-2012, 5:32 PM
Thats a very good point. I don't know of any case laws concerning that, but the apparent risk is enough to make me reconsider.


What about this approach, if I clamped the compensator onto the barrel through some sort of tension device on a non threaded barrel, that would definately be legal correct?

Basically I'm trying to find a CA legal way of building a Beretta 92fs Combat.

Already got a "Police Special" stamped 92fs, 1994 built and a gunsmith willing to work with me. Just need a design plan thats legal to use here.Olympic Arms did that during the ban years, a muzzle brake with four set screws that engaged a ring turned in the barrel. It made the barrel look very phallic due to the cone shape of the brake. :facepalm:

bohoki
03-03-2012, 6:53 PM
non detachable magazine

Random_Hero
03-03-2012, 8:00 PM
Olympic Arms did that during the ban years, a muzzle brake with four set screws that engaged a ring turned in the barrel. It made the barrel look very phallic due to the cone shape of the brake. :facepalm:

Interesting, is there any resource about this?



non detachable magazine

That is not a route I want to take at all.

cacop
03-03-2012, 8:13 PM
something like this?

http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/rob_s/gun%2520stuff/DSC05440.jpg

Random_Hero
03-04-2012, 3:08 AM
Basically in a sense. I just need it to be removable.

Random_Hero
03-04-2012, 3:17 AM
Should I forgo all this and just install a jarvis barrel and leave it at that?

OleCuss
03-04-2012, 6:29 AM
This is basically what I said, but I guess it all depends.

If you look up the definition of a thread it states that its a helical groove... which a lug is not. I a feeling depending on who looks at it though, they might have other opinions.

You are right, and I'll bet that a judge and jury will say you are wrong.

They will parse the code: PC 30515
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer. as meaning that "A threaded barrel" is immediately defined in the code as being a barrel "capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer". So they'll view any barrel designed to allow you to hang furniture on it as being legally "threaded"

You won't win in Superior Court and you won't win on appeal.

It might make for a nice contribution to the RKBA, however, to have a court finding that a barrel without threads is "threaded barrel" since one might be able to cite your case in a federal civil suit challenging the law as being unconstitutionally vague (I think that would be the terminology/grounds?). Not a high enough priority for someone to get themselves locked up for years. . .

Understand, while I think a federal civil case citing what happened to you might eventually win in federal court, I don't think it would reduce the amount of time you'd spend in prison by one minute.

cacop
03-04-2012, 9:00 AM
Should I forgo all this and just install a jarvis barrel and leave it at that?

A Jarvis barrel is quick and easy, assuming it does not need to be fitted. Even if it does it might be nice to ship it off to a smith that could fabricate something like the old slip on, bolt on compensators during the ban era. That way you can keep the factory barrel untouched and just swap barrels.

SpeedTribe
03-04-2012, 4:12 PM
Personally I think a muzzle device attached by set screws or a lug system would be legal. The argument would work the same way as the BB, detachable/attachable magazine, OLL arguments go. The law specifically bans "X". If this device does not meet that criteria then it is legal. Maybe not exactly that simple but hopefully you see what I am getting at.

I do not read PC 30515 as defining a “threaded barrel” as being a barrel capable of accepting a flash suppressor, etc…. They are two separate things, a threaded barrel and whatever legal device you are planning on putting on it. If the barrel does not meet the definition of “threaded” the section is irrelevant.

Think about it. If the definition of “threaded” was ANY barrel you could attach something to then EVERY barrel would be considered threaded because you can affix a device with set screws, friction, clamps, heck.. magnets, if you wanted There are so many ways you could attach something to the barrel.

PC 30515
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.

We would need a definition of "threaded" but as written it states "A threaded barrel" comma "capable of accepting...". If the barrel is not "threaded", this does not apply.

I don’t even want to get into the “intent” of the law because we know that the BB and rebuilds are within the letter of the law but probably don’t jive with the intent of the original bill writers.

I think it would be great to have the option of putting a comp on a barrel. Useful? Maybe not, but why not have the option available. Finding the definition of "threaded" is the key.

cdtx2001
03-04-2012, 6:38 PM
You are right, and I'll bet that a judge and jury will say you are wrong.

They will parse the code: as meaning that "A threaded barrel" is immediately defined in the code as being a barrel "capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer". So they'll view any barrel designed to allow you to hang furniture on it as being legally "threaded"

You won't win in Superior Court and you won't win on appeal.

It might make for a nice contribution to the RKBA, however, to have a court finding that a barrel without threads is "threaded barrel" since one might be able to cite your case in a federal civil suit challenging the law as being unconstitutionally vague (I think that would be the terminology/grounds?). Not a high enough priority for someone to get themselves locked up for years. . .

Understand, while I think a federal civil case citing what happened to you might eventually win in federal court, I don't think it would reduce the amount of time you'd spend in prison by one minute.

Interesting view point. From that, a barrel with a flash suppressor held on with set screws could technically be called a "threaded barrel" since it accepted one. No threads but it did accept a flash suppressor.

You're right that some idiot jury here would want to convict someone on it and eventually they would win on appeal higher up the food chain.

Ruger 22 pistols will accept a flash suppressor made for a 10/22 and it is held on with a set screw. There are no threads at all but under CA law it could be considered threaded.

OleCuss
03-04-2012, 8:38 PM
Interesting view point. From that, a barrel with a flash suppressor held on with set screws could technically be called a "threaded barrel" since it accepted one. No threads but it did accept a flash suppressor.

You're right that some idiot jury here would want to convict someone on it and eventually they would win on appeal higher up the food chain.

Ruger 22 pistols will accept a flash suppressor made for a 10/22 and it is held on with a set screw. There are no threads at all but under CA law it could be considered threaded.

See, I agree with everyone who is saying that the lugs and all are legal if the law is properly/correctly interpreted.

The problem is that I'd virtually guarantee that the courts would see it differently. In fact, I'd bet that since the set screws are threaded and they come in contact with the barrel that a DA will decide that this constitutes a threaded barrel. It's an insane stretch in my opinion, but our beloved DAs routinely make insane logical and legal stretches in order to incarcerate the generally law-abiding on firearms-related charges.

And I think you mis-interpreted what I said. If they prosecute you for using a lugged barrel I'd bet that you get convicted and that the conviction will never be overturned. The California state court system will not overturn the conviction. If you appeal somehow to the federal system, the district and circuit courts are unlikely to overturn, and the SCOTUS won't grant cert.

It's ridiculous that it would work this way, but I'm betting you could do the completely legal and still be convicted and lose on all appeals.

Random_Hero
03-05-2012, 1:44 PM
I guess its better safe then sorry. So much for my idea.

cacop
03-05-2012, 2:50 PM
I guess its better safe then sorry. So much for my idea.

I just thought of another attachment idea. Check out the front sight of a Mini 14 sometime. Notice how they drill a hole in the barrel across the top? Then they attach the sight with a roll pin. Choate and few others attach flahs hiders and compensators to Mini 14s that way. No threads anywhere on the barrel.

What is even better about this arrangement is that roll pins are chaep and easy to make and replace. The safety lever on your beretta is held together with them.

I wish I would have thought about this a few years ago. It would have been a really nice way of attaching a comp without threads.

Hmmm. I do have a P228 where a P226 barrel and the right gunsmith might make this happen.

ClarenceBoddicker
03-06-2012, 3:18 AM
Another simple idea would be a taper collet like a Morse or a quick disconnect like a Milton air hose coupler. The taper collet would be bulky, but no way could a court define a smooth surface as threaded. The Milton type coupler would be great for something on a barrel. The barrel would have 1 raised band. Hard to picture that it could be called a thread.