PDA

View Full Version : H&K rifles


Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 1:52 PM
I just got my first AR and my buddy is interested in jumping on the rifle bandwagon but sufficed to say he cant afford a 416, let alone would spend that much and get the BB if its even able to be bought.

He doesn't mind the G3 style rifles and even the UMP style one with extended barrel for compliance. What are his options if he doesn't want to spend more than 1200.00? Is it even possible? He prefers to spend as little as he can since he wants to spend alot on ammo. He doesnt mind if its .308/5.56 etc....

Sicarius
03-01-2012, 2:30 PM
If he is that budget minded. 308 is out of the question. At .60 cents a shot for surplus, the ammo will soon outcost the rifle.
In 223 options, he is pretty much limited to a vector v93. The rifle will run him around 1200 and he can pick up good surplus ammo at 300 dollars for 1k rounds.
SL8 will be out of the budget and so will the USC(civilian ump). He is pretty much limited to an HK clone. If the cost of 308 doesn't bother him, a PTR will fit in the 1200 budget.
Kevin

Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 2:39 PM
If he is that budget minded. 308 is out of the question. At .60 cents a shot for surplus, the ammo will soon outcost the rifle.
In 223 options, he is pretty much limited to a vector v93. The rifle will run him around 1200 and he can pick up good surplus ammo at 300 dollars for 1k rounds.
SL8 will be out of the budget and so will the USC(civilian ump). He is pretty much limited to an HK clone. If the cost of 308 doesn't bother him, a PTR will fit in the 1200 budget.
Kevin

Yea I tried to talk him into something a little more affordable for his tax return but he really wants an HK. In any case, the V93 common, let alone mags for it?

SunkenShadow
03-01-2012, 2:44 PM
The other option is a HK33/Century Arms version or something....though mags will cost him a pretty penny and it's not that great of a rifle from what i heard?

MrPlink
03-01-2012, 2:46 PM
"i want one of the typically most expensive mil pattern firearms, but I dont want to pay for it"

Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 2:47 PM
"i want one of the typically most expensive mil pattern firearms, but I dont want to pay for it"

:cool: Yea I know.....he's finally getting into rifles though so I'm trying to help him out with choosing. He says he's preferring an HK. Needless to say the only other consideration he says he'd try would be a FAL but he doesnt want a large barrel.

Coldies
03-01-2012, 2:59 PM
A well built HK CLONE will always run a pretty penny. As mentioned above the cheapest will be around $1200 for a HK33 clone. On the other hand there is always the C93 which is CAI version and can be found for around $500-$700. I own one and after replacing the extractor spring it runs like a champ with whatever I feed it.

Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 3:03 PM
A well built HK CLONE will always run a pretty penny. As mentioned above the cheapest will be around $1200 for a HK33 clone. On the other hand there is always the C93 which is CAI version and can be found for around $500-$700. I own one and after replacing the extractor spring it runs like a champ with whatever I feed it.

Without people jumping all over me for linking this, whats wrong with this if he wants to try out one? http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct802.aspx

I'm well aware its not made in Germany or anything but I was googling around and I heard a couple say they were pretty solid. It come with a BB and sounds like mags may be expensive but well yea....


He says he's leaning FAL or something else now, haha I dont think he realized how expensive HK's were to begin with, eh he'll get over it :43:.

Sicarius
03-01-2012, 3:15 PM
He has some expensive taste for not wanting to pay for it. hehe. The c93 is a gamble. Just assume that there is no warranty with the rifle when you get it and that it was put together by a bunch of monkeys. With that said I have several century firearms so I speak from experience. I wouldn't buy one given the chance for half the price of a quality version.
I understand the HK love that your friend has for I have my fair share but for somebody that doesn't seem to know rifles so well, it seems just like an attraction to the name. Anyways he has pretty much limited himself to Enterprise, Century, Vector and PTR. I would look into the PTR 91 line or Vector v93 personally. Enterprise FAL will fit the budget but again, 308 will burn a hole in his pocket if he is trying to be cheap. The FAL is not a cheap rifle and in most cases cost more than he is willing to spend... at least for a quality one.
Kevin

Black Majik
03-01-2012, 3:17 PM
How about a HK USC? Not .556/.308 but it's all H&K and shoots a cost effective caliber. It's the cheapest HK rifle I can think of.

Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 3:20 PM
I ran some of those ideas and prices by him and he's saying he's willing to give some parameters. 16 inch barrel, piston driven, something that can get a rail on the upper. He says he's just not keen on ar15's, but he's willing to try one. He just wants something not as common it sounds like.

CAL.BAR
03-01-2012, 3:28 PM
Yeah, seriously, if he wants a cheap HK rifle he needs a time machine. (my first was an HK93 bought in 1987 with newspaper route money)

Since then, I don't think I've paid less than 2K to complete an HK rifle since.

Turners had the USC for $1,300 a while back, but they are horrible without the UMP conversion which will take the cost well over 2K.

In the end, if he wants a cheap rifle, get an AR or AK like the rest of the crowd. Save the HK for when he grows up and gets a real job.

russ69
03-01-2012, 3:35 PM
If you want to play you have to pay. 1200 bucks will barely get you a good AR15.

bender152
03-01-2012, 3:41 PM
Without people jumping all over me for linking this, whats wrong with this if he wants to try out one? http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct802.aspx

I've never owned one, but by many accounts, Century's build quality sucks.

If he wants a USC, that can be purchased close to his budget. But keep in mind, that is a completely different gun than an AR. Also, mags will cost $40-$50.

A PTR-91 would also be close to his budget. They've got a much better reputation than Century. However, as others have mentioned, he's gonna be paying $0.50 a round for plinking ammo.

saki302
03-01-2012, 3:50 PM
Tell him to get a century CETME and send it to a gunsmith for a reliability tune/bolt gap fix.

When it's all done, he should be in it about $700-800. You *NEED* to get those checked out though, century is infamous for incompetency. Grinding the bolt head to achieve proper bolt gap is :nuts:

-Dave

Ubermcoupe
03-01-2012, 3:59 PM
308 is out of the question. At .60 cents a shot for surplus, the ammo will soon outcost the rifle.

That entirely depends on how much you shoot your rifle. If OP only goes out a couple times a year than it won’t be so bad.

Or you could just do what the rest of us do and reload.

And if OP is so worried about $$$ why the heck is he looking into an HK where there are so many other budget options out there. :facepalm:

Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 4:10 PM
That entirely depends on how much you shoot your rifle. If OP only goes out a couple times a year than it won’t be so bad.

Or you could just do what the rest of us do and reload.

And if OP is so worried about $$$ why the heck is he looking into an HK where there are so many other budget options out there. :facepalm:

True, he says maybe 500-800 rounds a year, thats about how often he'd shoot my other stuff and he'd pay for his own ammo, he just wants something of his own now.

And lol I'm not sure why he wants a HK so bad, but then again he bought a P30 after holding it for only 10 minutes.

Tell him to get a century CETME and send it to a gunsmith for a reliability tune/bolt gap fix.

When it's all done, he should be in it about $700-800. You *NEED* to get those checked out though, century is infamous for incompetency. Grinding the bolt head to achieve proper bolt gap is :nuts:

-Dave


Jesus christ......grinded? Sounds like a deathtrap. He says a .308 AR would be neat but he likes the old school look of them. And it sounds like a FAL is out the window too. Damn.

bender152
03-01-2012, 4:27 PM
And lol I'm not sure why he wants a HK so bad, but then again he bought a P30 after holding it for only 10 minutes.

Wait... how much did he spend on the P30?

RAMCHARGER
03-01-2012, 4:29 PM
PTR 32 (7.62x39) ans used AK mags :)

Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 4:36 PM
Good question, I wasn't there when he went to sse it if I recall. Off top my head that pistol is 1,100 plus.

Sicarius
03-01-2012, 4:39 PM
Daewoo dr200! Not as sexy sounding as HK... That is a unique piston driven weapon. hehe.
He would have to shoot a lot of .308 to hurt the wallet but that is the situation I am in right now so it hits close to home.
The USC is neat. I will give it that but definately lacking when compared to a converted one. Cost of .45 is around 24 bucks a box these days. At 48 cents a shot, he might as well shoot .308. The USC also doesn't fit the role of a rifle. He won't be spending much time at the 100 yard line.
Kevin

CHS
03-01-2012, 4:40 PM
If you want to play you have to pay. 1200 bucks will barely get you a good AR15.

What are you talking about?

$1200 will get you a freaking COLT.

$1200 won't get you anything in an HK near Colt quality.

Your buddy can get some serious quality for his $1200, or he can get an "HK". Is his priority really that skewed?

When I was younger and just getting into guns, I thought (like many people) that HK was just the end-all-be-all of firearms. Then I handled a lot of different ones and realized they're just overpriced stamped-metal blowback guns that look cool and survive based on marketing and market scarcity.

Also, HK hates you:
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

bender152
03-01-2012, 4:41 PM
Good question, I wasn't there when he went to sse it if I recall. Off top my head that pistol is 1,100 plus.

And he wants to find a rifle for just a little more?

Of well, when your friend finds his $1200 HK rifle, ask him if he knows where I can find some unicorn horns for cheap. :D

Seriously tho, he should try shooting a USC or PTR-91 before deciding to buy one. They're not for everyone.

97F1504RAD
03-01-2012, 5:11 PM
He could go with the PTR G.I. Version I think those are going for around 900.00 or so

http://www.ptr91.com/products/PTR%20G.I.?id=23

Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 5:51 PM
What are you talking about?

$1200 will get you a freaking COLT.

$1200 won't get you anything in an HK near Colt quality.

Your buddy can get some serious quality for his $1200, or he can get an "HK". Is his priority really that skewed?

When I was younger and just getting into guns, I thought (like many people) that HK was just the end-all-be-all of firearms. Then I handled a lot of different ones and realized they're just overpriced stamped-metal blowback guns that look cool and survive based on marketing and market scarcity.

Also, HK hates you:
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

I was about to say I agree with you, 1200 buys a colt seriously.....it doesnt have to push 1,000 bucks to be nice. And I agree about them being very overpriced, but I'm sure there decent for what they are.

He says he would consider a AR but he wants a piston driven.

And he wants to find a rifle for just a little more?

Of well, when your friend finds his $1200 HK rifle, ask him if he knows where I can find some unicorn horns for cheap. :D

Seriously tho, he should try shooting a USC or PTR-91 before deciding to buy one. They're not for everyone.

Well I think he thought it would be a tad more if not the same price as there pistols, needless to say he was wrong.

He could go with the PTR G.I. Version I think those are going for around 900.00 or so

http://www.ptr91.com/products/PTR%20G.I.?id=23

He may contemplate one of those.

CHS
03-01-2012, 6:06 PM
He says he would consider a AR but he wants a piston driven.


Does he realize that most HK's ARENT piston driven?

The G36 and 416 are, sure. But the classic HK's like the HK91's, 93's, MP5's, etc aren't piston driven at all.

Also, does he even know why he wants piston driven? Does he actually understand the differences between an AR that's not piston and an AR that is? Does he understand the differences between an HK that's not piston driven and an HK that is?

He seriously just sounds to me like a guy who has heard from some Tom Clancy book that HK is just the best thing in the entire freaking universe, so that's what he thinks he "needs".

Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 6:07 PM
Does he realize that most HK's ARENT piston driven?

The G36 and 416 are, sure. But the classic HK's like the HK91's, 93's, MP5's, etc aren't piston driven at all.

Also, does he even know why he wants piston driven? Does he actually understand the differences between an AR that's not piston and an AR that is? Does he understand the differences between an HK that's not piston driven and an HK that is?

He seriously just sounds to me like a guy who has heard from some Tom Clancy book that HK is just the best thing in the entire freaking universe, so that's what he thinks he "needs".

No he was saying if it wasn't an HK he wanted a piston driven rifle, he knows DI and Piston and whatnot. I think there was a communication breakdown. He is brand oriented at times, but usually when price hits home he caves in for something more practical. The P30 he just picked up was an exception.

That said if I recall G3 and some others were roller lock delayed. But I've seen them, never fired them.

CHS
03-01-2012, 6:21 PM
That said if I recall G3 and some others were roller lock delayed. But I've seen them, never fired them.

Correct. "Roller lock delayed" is basically a really fancy way of saying "delayed blowback" :)

Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 6:29 PM
Yea I got to hold a mp5 and shoot it years ago out of state and the guy took it apart and showed me how it worked. He said the G3 that down the line was similiar in the way it worked.

Does it offer any advantage over say DI?

Redchevyman
03-01-2012, 6:50 PM
The C93 is a good rifle. It is not the typical Century hack job. Or you can get a TNW AR-15 type rifle with gas piston and quick change barrel for just over $1000.
http://tnwfirearms.com/images/SGP-QCB_brown-lrg.jpg
Gas Piston - Quick Change Barrel firearm. This design provides the ability to meet any tactical situation by simply changing the barrel length and caliber - all within seconds. This firearm comes standard with a .223 caliber barrel. The SGP-QBC pictured above is in Coyote Tan. It is also available in Hard Coat Black Anodized. Accessories sold separately.

Sturnovik
03-01-2012, 6:59 PM
That's pretty cool ^

I'll show him it. Thanks for the help thus far.

jchen76@gmail.com
03-01-2012, 7:38 PM
No real advantage gain over di vs roller delayed. I owned a c93, and it was a heavy pig. Roller backs needed a heavy bolt carrier and huge recoil spring. Cocking a hk rifle was like stringing a cross brow. The only advantage I can see is it can run dirtier and reliably than an ar under same conditions.

Sturnovik
03-02-2012, 8:28 AM
^sounds like just an exotic system than something way better than other systems.

He's looking at piston AR's at the moment. Are RRA entry level? Does colt put out a piston upper that's able to be bought?

Ding126
03-02-2012, 8:43 AM
If he wants to shoot .223/5.56 then stick to an AR...as for a .308 HK style I would suggest a PTR..thats the only thing that might fit into his budget..mags are currently cheap...unlike the .223 HK style rifles.. I would tell him to pay more for the rifle and worry about stocking up on ammo later in life..you can have all the ammo in the world but if your rifle is a POS..what fun is that?

The only HK style rifle I would consider is a Springfield SAR 3 or 8 ( not the cast aluminum ) but the ones made in greece on HK tooling...or kick down some $$$ for a CA legal SR9 which are on the board here. Tell him to lurk around HKpro.com for education and info.
Good Luck

brianm767
03-02-2012, 11:17 AM
C-93 are cool looking but are known for bolt gap issues out of the box, canted sights etc.. there is some one on the HK Forums who many guys send their new C-93's too for an overhaul new out of the box to get them to run 100%, I believe it's about $300 max depending on what it needs, could be much less, but your still under a grand for the rifle.

I was going to buy one but decided I didnt want the headaches so I'm going for a Vector V-93, should be 100% out of the box but ya never know.
I will be into it for $1200. I should be able to get that back in Cali if I decide to sale it later.

I also have a Daewoo DR200 that is 922R compliant so no funny thumbhole stock, I absolutely love this rifle, it's different, uses AR mags, there was a NIB one on Gunbroaker last week for $899.

MrPlink
03-02-2012, 11:49 AM
How the hell does somebody who does not own a rifle prefer HK? Hand him a keltec and tell him its a new HK, and I bet he would be impressee

Sturnovik
03-02-2012, 12:12 PM
How the hell does somebody who does not own a rifle prefer HK? Hand him a keltec and tell him its a new HK, and I bet he would be impressee

I've had major issues with my keltec, its the last rifle I'd show him, it'd probally make him change his mind about rifles all together. That said he's shot an HK rifle before and he likes the company, so lets say he's brand oriented. He's leaning toward a piston AR, he just wants something unique that everyone doesnt have, he realizes that may cost some serious cash.

C-93 are cool looking but are known for bolt gap issues out of the box, canted sights etc.. there is some one on the HK Forums who many guys send their new C-93's too for an overhaul new out of the box to get them to run 100%, I believe it's about $300 max depending on what it needs, could be much less, but your still under a grand for the rifle.

I was going to buy one but decided I didnt want the headaches so I'm going for a Vector V-93, should be 100% out of the box but ya never know.
I will be into it for $1200. I should be able to get that back in Cali if I decide to sale it later.

I also have a Daewoo DR200 that is 922R compliant so no funny thumbhole stock, I absolutely love this rifle, it's different, uses AR mags, there was a NIB one on Gunbroaker last week for $899.

The DR200 sounds neat!

If he wants to shoot .223/5.56 then stick to an AR...as for a .308 HK style I would suggest a PTR..thats the only thing that might fit into his budget..mags are currently cheap...unlike the .223 HK style rifles.. I would tell him to pay more for the rifle and worry about stocking up on ammo later in life..you can have all the ammo in the world but if your rifle is a POS..what fun is that?

The only HK style rifle I would consider is a Springfield SAR 3 or 8 ( not the cast aluminum ) but the ones made in greece on HK tooling...or kick down some $$$ for a CA legal SR9 which are on the board here. Tell him to lurk around HKpro.com for education and info.
Good Luck

I'm having him browse galleryofguns and a few other places to find stuff as we speak.

starsnuffer
03-02-2012, 1:14 PM
Just tell him to get an AK. There's only one letter difference.

-W

MrPlink
03-02-2012, 1:19 PM
I've had major issues with my keltec, its the last rifle I'd show him, it'd probally make him change his mind about rifles all together. That said he's shot an HK rifle before and he likes the company, so lets say he's brand oriented. He's leaning toward a piston AR, he just wants something unique that everyone doesnt have, he realizes that may cost some serious cash.





lol, hence me saying hand him the keltec :D

but something unique and AR rarely belong in the same sentence

HKDoc
03-02-2012, 2:31 PM
Own both hk USC, not converted, and mr556. most friends I take to the range like the USC better. It's easy and fun to shoot. Not piston but cleans very easily. He should try one to see if he likes it.

Sturnovik
03-02-2012, 4:14 PM
lol, hence me saying hand him the keltec :D

but something unique and AR rarely belong in the same sentence

Jesus I'm slow today haha, I thought you were serious! In any case he wants a flat top rail, not to heavy piston gun. He's confused though, do most piston ones come with a different gas block in front instead of front A2/m4 sight post gas thing? The ones he's been browsing seem to.

Own both hk USC, not converted, and mr556. most friends I take to the range like the USC better. It's easy and fun to shoot. Not piston but cleans very easily. He should try one to see if he likes it.

Yea the USC is a neat weapon.

zombiescanlearn
03-03-2012, 8:49 AM
I have a H&K MR556 and I love it. If you can't afford the price tag then go for Sig 556 or 516. Those are quality guns as well and I've seen them advertise around $1200. I owned a Sig 556 in the past and it ran flawlessly. They're both fun to shoot. Good luck!

Sig 556
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb391/mqd123/IMG00049-20120125-1425.jpg

MR556
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb391/mqd123/IMG00152-20111007-1140.jpg

Shooting the H&K
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb391/mqd123/DSCN1308.jpg

richzmn
03-03-2012, 9:12 AM
http://www.riflegear.com/p-959-hk-usc-rifle-45acp-165-barrel-10rd.aspx

zombiescanlearn
03-03-2012, 9:15 AM
... Or your friend can just pick up an AK47. They're pretty sweet too. Here's mine:

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb391/mqd123/IMG00058-20120212-0957.jpg

Sturnovik
03-03-2012, 9:32 AM
Yea he was interested in the Sig, and saw that one torture test video and thought it was impressive. I didnt realize they were that cheap, that very well may be a deal!

If I recall they are getting sued (I forget which one, the one thats more of a AR right?) over it though, he may have to buy one fast!

Sturnovik
03-06-2012, 10:24 AM
He ended up going with a AR budds. Thanks for the help!

zombiescanlearn
03-06-2012, 2:24 PM
He ended up going with a AR budds. Thanks for the help!

which one?

Sturnovik
03-06-2012, 2:45 PM
which one?

He went with a M&P, he really wanted a fancy one but I told him it would better be put towards ammo, mags and then an EOtech like he wants lol.

zombiescanlearn
03-06-2012, 4:56 PM
He went with a M&P, he really wanted a fancy one but I told him it would better be put towards ammo, mags and then an EOtech like he wants lol.

That actually is a good choice for a first AR if you're on a budget. Save the money for the actual shooting.

Sturnovik
03-06-2012, 5:17 PM
Amen^.

It's a good rifle from what I hear!

Sicarius
03-07-2012, 9:43 AM
Good choice. He will have plenty of time(and money) to upgrade as he sees fit. Don't discount the ar platform. It is plenty strong and reliable. There are tons of upgrad parts he can buy including piston conversions.
Kevin

CHS
03-07-2012, 10:19 AM
There are tons of upgrad parts he can buy including piston conversions.


I would never consider going from DI -> Piston an "Upgrade" :)

Sturnovik
03-07-2012, 11:06 AM
Do the piston uppers he could switch too work fine with a standard lower or does he need a special one?

Oh and CHS, Im rather new to AR's too, that said I bought my DI one last month. Why do you prefer DI for the most part?

Im liking DI thus far.

HKDoc
03-07-2012, 11:34 AM
You friend can still get the hk upper mr566 at a later date. Should fit in his mp, just need to swap out buffer and spring. Congrats.

Sicarius
03-07-2012, 11:46 AM
The whole upper can be swapped with many outfits that make them. Nothing else needs to be done. As for conversion kits, I am not sold on them yet and much rather buy a dedicated upper. I am curious though and may try an adams arms kit someday. I have yet to have a DI system fail me so need is really not the issue. The whole system was engineered for DI, introducing a conversion kit puts stresses in different areas. Carrier tilt is a topic that is well covered. You can run the potential of ruining parts on your firearm or prematurely wearing them out have have very little to gain as far as the weekend warrior is conserned.
Kevin

hnoppenberger
03-07-2012, 11:56 AM
Do the piston uppers he could switch too work fine with a standard lower or does he need a special one?

Oh and CHS, Im rather new to AR's too, that said I bought my DI one last month. Why do you prefer DI for the most part?

Im liking DI thus far.

DI works, period. if you want a piston upper (and play that game) then just buy a new gun / upper. I have dabbled in modifing standard good uppers to have mall ninja stuff on them and have come to realize that its best just to start a new build, and keep the tried and proven stuff whole.

Sturnovik
03-07-2012, 2:39 PM
Yea I was going to say the conversion kits I've heard carrier tilt brought up, that said I dont mind my DI unit.

RAMCHARGER
03-07-2012, 5:23 PM
BTW Century is no longer making C93s.

Good choice on the AR :)

azthig69
03-07-2012, 10:13 PM
You friend can still get the hk upper mr566 at a later date. Should fit in his mp, just need to swap out buffer and spring. Congrats.

I doubt that the mr556 upper will fit, HK is known for making every part proprietary. I don't have an mr556 so I could be wrong.

Sicarius
03-08-2012, 8:55 AM
Err... the MR556 DOES in fact fit a standard lower...
Kevin

MultiCaliber
03-08-2012, 9:36 AM
Erk. Hope your buddy enjoys his run-of-the-mill, only-as-awesome as everyone else's AR. Now that he didn't fork out too much money for a silly brand tag gun, he can buy enough ammo to get good shooting it. :)

CHS
03-08-2012, 10:28 AM
Erk. Hope your buddy enjoys his run-of-the-mill, only-as-awesome as everyone else's AR.

I didn't choose an AR to be unique, I chose an AR for standardization.

When your nifty HK piston gun breaks a bolt, where do you go to buy one?

When my AR breaks a bolt I can go to at least half a dozen stores in SoCal alone to pick up a new bolt, extractor, gas key, etc. And it will cost me about $60.

AR parts are standardized and common enough that I can even stock up on spare parts to have sitting around without breaking the bank.

My AR looks only-as-awesome as everyone elses? Good! That means that standardization is WORKING.

Sturnovik
03-08-2012, 10:32 AM
I didn't choose an AR to be unique, I chose an AR for standardization.

When your nifty HK piston gun breaks a bolt, where do you go to buy one?

When my AR breaks a bolt I can go to at least half a dozen stores in SoCal alone to pick up a new bolt, extractor, gas key, etc. And it will cost me about $60.

AR parts are standardized and common enough that I can even stock up on spare parts to have sitting around without breaking the bank.

My AR looks only-as-awesome as everyone elses? Good! That means that standardization is WORKING.

I see where your coming from.

My friend has decided after hours of research and my advice to stick with DI.

MultiCaliber
03-08-2012, 10:36 AM
Also, HK hates you:
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

This article is hilarious. :rofl:

Also I think you mistook my print sarcasm above for seriousness. I have nothing against "standard" AR's. I have like 4 of them, and nothing more exotic, either. :P

zombiescanlearn
03-08-2012, 4:06 PM
You friend can still get the hk upper mr566 at a later date. Should fit in his mp, just need to swap out buffer and spring. Congrats.

I don't think it will work on a standard AR lower. That's what I was told, never actually tried it.

zombiescanlearn
03-08-2012, 4:09 PM
I didn't choose an AR to be unique, I chose an AR for standardization.

When your nifty HK piston gun breaks a bolt, where do you go to buy one?

When my AR breaks a bolt I can go to at least half a dozen stores in SoCal alone to pick up a new bolt, extractor, gas key, etc. And it will cost me about $60.

AR parts are standardized and common enough that I can even stock up on spare parts to have sitting around without breaking the bank.

My AR looks only-as-awesome as everyone elses? Good! That means that standardization is WORKING.

HKs' don't break ;)

CHS
03-08-2012, 5:17 PM
HKs' don't break ;)

Yeah, I'm not taking that troll-bait :)

azthig69
03-08-2012, 8:10 PM
Err... the MR556 DOES in fact fit a standard lower...
Kevin

Agreed. I trust that you have one and actually tried....better yet, can you post a pic, if you don't mind. :)

Sturnovik
03-08-2012, 8:51 PM
Haha are those hk high reliability mags what people making them out to be.

Sturnovik
03-08-2012, 8:53 PM
Or are they not as good as pmags? Sorry posted twice since I'm on my phone lol.

We take his AR out the day after he picks it up. Thanks for helping us narrow I down!

CHS
03-09-2012, 12:03 AM
Haha are those hk high reliability mags what people making them out to be.

Or are they not as good as pmags? Sorry posted twice since I'm on my phone lol.

We take his AR out the day after he picks it up. Thanks for helping us narrow I down!

The HK "High Reliability" mags were designed as VERY EXPENSIVE USGI mags because PMAG's won't fit in a HK416 lower and the HK416's couldn't reliably use standard USGI mags.

Honestly, they were a solution to an HK problem.

For the price of one HK "High Reliability" mag, you can get three PMAG's. And I'll take the PMAG's over the HK mags any day of the week.

sdkelly85
03-09-2012, 12:11 AM
Hk USC is on sale at turners.

zombiescanlearn
03-09-2012, 8:47 AM
The HK "High Reliability" mags were designed as VERY EXPENSIVE USGI mags because PMAG's won't fit in a HK416 lower and the HK416's couldn't reliably use standard USGI mags.

Honestly, they were a solution to an HK problem.

For the price of one HK "High Reliability" mag, you can get three PMAG's. And I'll take the PMAG's over the HK mags any day of the week.

The EMAG's fit the HK. The 10/20 PMAG's as well but not the 10/30.

starsnuffer
03-09-2012, 9:12 AM
I don't know where this internet FUD comes from. There is another rifle called the MR223 that sells in Europe and Canada. It is NOT AR15 compatible.

The MR556A1 is AR compatible, and the upper works just fine on any AR lower.

Here's a review from MAC, fast forward to about 17 minutes in if you want to see the MR upper on an AR lower:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb_Ok410yuw&feature=plcp&context=C45f881cVDvjVQa1PpcFP-JyicQ78npiM6v-dkjtR0dmC01TkNvY8%3D

-W

starsnuffer
03-09-2012, 9:14 AM
The HK "High Reliability" mags were designed as VERY EXPENSIVE USGI mags because PMAG's won't fit in a HK416 lower and the HK416's couldn't reliably use standard USGI mags.

Honestly, they were a solution to an HK problem.

For the price of one HK "High Reliability" mag, you can get three PMAG's. And I'll take the PMAG's over the HK mags any day of the week.

That's not really correct at all. USGI mags work perfectly in 416's and MR556, in fact, USMC regulations state that ONLY USGI mags are to be used in their M27IAR's (which have the same lower as the 556 and 416) The HK mags were deigned to actually be reliable, the feed lips won't seperate, and they have drainage holes in all of the "maritime" mags to keep the magazine from blowing out of the rifle if you fire it when it's full of water.

I don't know why you think that HK would design a rifle around a non-stanag spec pmag or be concerned with it. Even the USMC has banned PMAGs from use now.

-W

Sturnovik
03-09-2012, 1:05 PM
I would think all Nato countries use stanag?

zombiescanlearn
03-09-2012, 4:18 PM
I don't know where this internet FUD comes from. There is another rifle called the MR223 that sells in Europe and Canada. It is NOT AR15 compatible.

The MR556A1 is AR compatible, and the upper works just fine on any AR lower.

Here's a review from MAC, fast forward to about 17 minutes in if you want to see the MR upper on an AR lower:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb_Ok410yuw&feature=plcp&context=C45f881cVDvjVQa1PpcFP-JyicQ78npiM6v-dkjtR0dmC01TkNvY8%3D

-W

Does the 416 upper work with the AR lower? It sounds like it does. Haven't seen the video.

nitroxdiver
03-09-2012, 4:49 PM
Does the 416 upper work with the AR lower? It sounds like it does. Haven't seen the video.


Yes, the 416, and MR556A1 uppers both will mount and work on a standard, in spec, AR lower. Initially, before the the MR556A1 actually came out, word was they were going to have non standard pin spacing and were not going to be compatible with standard AR lowers. That proved to be untrue. That's where the continued mis-information comes from. It is a marvelously designed and finished rifle. There is a steep price of admission, and whether or not the features and quality justify the price is purely up to the individual buying or passing on it. The HK mags are typical HK quality. Again, only the end user can determine if they are "worth" it. Pmags are not made to USGI/stang spec. That the MR556 doesn't jive with them is of no concern to HK. Neither does the scar 16 or the fs2000 and I'm sure several others. Doesn't make pmags pos, just means you need USGI in the HK and FN's.

Congrats to your buddy on his new rifle op. I'm sure it will serve him well.

azthig69
03-09-2012, 8:43 PM
The HK "High Reliability" mags were designed as VERY EXPENSIVE USGI mags because PMAG's won't fit in a HK416 lower and the HK416's couldn't reliably use standard USGI mags.

Honestly, they were a solution to an HK problem.

For the price of one HK "High Reliability" mag, you can get three PMAG's. And I'll take the PMAG's over the HK mags any day of the week.


Yes, the HK416 is unreliable, in fact USMC awarded HK a contract to produce the M27 IAR after beating all well known competition. Although unreliable, the HK416 proves to be the "best of the best".:)

CHS
03-09-2012, 10:33 PM
Yes, the HK416 is unreliable, in fact USMC awarded HK a contract to produce the M27 IAR after beating all well known competition. Although unreliable, the HK416 proves to be the "best of the best".:)

The HK416 and the M27 IAR are not the same firearm.

I've read MANY stories of the 416 being unreliable with anything other than the HK High Reliability mag.

If your gun is not consistently reliable without a $60 magazine, then I'm not interested.

Then again.. It's a piston gun. I'm not interested to begin with :)

starsnuffer
03-09-2012, 11:13 PM
CHS, I usually have a lot of respect for what you have to say, but you're starting to sound like a crusty old fogie that only likes colts and 1911's, lubes his guns with grease, and thinks anything that wasn't made 100 years ago is crap. I know you're too good a guy and too smart a person to fall into that silly stereotype.

HK416's and M27's are almost identical insofar as working mechanisms are concerned. The 416 has evolved somewhat over the years, and the most recent 416 is actually very similar to the MR556 insofar as the BCG modifications that have taken place.

The M27 IAR is exactly the same as an HK416D with several exceptions:

1.) The M27IAR has an 11" handguard, the 416 and 556 has a 9" handguard (stock, the 11" is available from HK and fits any of their varients) The longer handguard allows the attachment of night vision equipment forward of the standard issue ACOG (same ACOG that comes on the SAW)

2.) Because the handguard covers the piston block, the M27 has a forward bayonet lug around the barrel, facilitating the attachment of a bayonet.

3.) The M27 IAR comes with KAC full height m16 style BUIS instead of HK diopters that come on the 416 and 556.

Everything else is exactly the same. As I mentioned, the USMC uses USGI mags in the M27. The lower is exactly the same as the 416 and MR556.



IF, for some reason, using Pmags is an issue for someone, replace the lower. Lowers are what, $99 these days? That's small potatoes, most people spend more then that for a "tactical" light they never use.

-W

Quiet
03-09-2012, 11:21 PM
The Magpul P-Mag are not STANAG.
Hence the reason why Magpul makes the E-Mag, which is suppose to be STANAG.

azthig69
03-10-2012, 6:33 AM
The HK416 and the M27 IAR are not the same firearm.

I've read MANY stories of the 416 being unreliable with anything other than the HK High Reliability mag.

If your gun is not consistently reliable without a $60 magazine, then I'm not interested.

Then again.. It's a piston gun. I'm not interested to begin with :)


Agreed, I respect that a reliable Pmag is more important to you than the firearm. I guess the thought process of USMC in spending $60 for a magazine is Marine lives are on the line.:)

azthig69
03-10-2012, 6:53 AM
HKs' don't break ;)


....but your wallet will. :)

zombiescanlearn
03-10-2012, 9:37 AM
:clap:

So true. LOL.

....but your wallet will. :)

Sturnovik
03-10-2012, 12:01 PM
The Magpul P-Mag are not STANAG.
Hence the reason why Magpul makes the E-Mag, which is suppose to be STANAG.

Good to hear. Does it really make a difference in my Spikes lower? I'm assuming it's milspec, that said, I wonder if I should go with Emags just because there stanag?

CHS
03-10-2012, 12:47 PM
Good to hear. Does it really make a difference in my Spikes lower? I'm assuming it's milspec, that said, I wonder if I should go with Emags just because there stanag?

PMAG's were designed strictly for the standard forged AR15/M16/M4 magwell, which is what your Spikes is. For that, they work excellently.

STANAG magazines (like USGI mags, or EMAGS) are designed to store and feed 5.56 cartridges for NATO weapons INCLUDING the AR15/M16/M4 but also include things like the British L85/SA80 which DOES NOT have an AR15/M16/M4 magwell.

A magazine not being STANAG compliant is only a problem if you're not running the AR platform.

Now, if you ever plan on getting a MR556/416 or an SA80, maybe you should invest in EMAGS :)

Sturnovik
03-10-2012, 1:45 PM
PMAG's were designed strictly for the standard forged AR15/M16/M4 magwell, which is what your Spikes is. For that, they work excellently.

STANAG magazines (like USGI mags, or EMAGS) are designed to store and feed 5.56 cartridges for NATO weapons INCLUDING the AR15/M16/M4 but also include things like the British L85/SA80 which DOES NOT have an AR15/M16/M4 magwell.

A magazine not being STANAG compliant is only a problem if you're not running the AR platform.

Now, if you ever plan on getting a MR556/416 or an SA80, maybe you should invest in EMAGS :)

Aye ok right on. Damn....my dream rifle was that SA80, to bad no one imports them!

thanks for the mag knowledge.

zombiescanlearn
03-10-2012, 2:55 PM
Aye ok right on. Damn....my dream rifle was that SA80, to bad no one imports them!

thanks for the mag knowledge.

Emags are also more expensive. So, unless you really need to, I would just stick with the Pmags.

Sturnovik
03-10-2012, 4:21 PM
^ good to know!

Massan
03-10-2012, 4:35 PM
Can always wait for the new M3 PMAG thats supposed to be STANAG compliant.

greenhead1
03-10-2012, 4:53 PM
What's with the love for PMAGs?

1) They ARE cheap, but not any more so than a USGI metal mag.
Forum sponsor CA Legal Mags has aluminum mags for $16.99 (http://www.calegalmags.com/DH-30rd-AR-15-Magazine-Rebuild-Kits--Green-Follower_p_378.html) and PMAGs for 19.99 (http://www.calegalmags.com/Magpul-Pmag-30rd-Standard-Magazine-Rebuild-Kit_p_48.html)

2) They aren't any more reliable than a steel mag. Properly loaded, both perform identically as far as I can tell.

3) USGI mags generally work with more guns because they are built to a spec used by most 5.56 guns around the world. PMAGs are built to their own spec to work with the popular AR15.

4) Deciding on a weapon based on magazines makes no sense unless I really wanted to stick with those magazines or ammo. Except, if my decision were to stick with ammo, then I should have bought a proper magazine to begin with.

5) I suppose if I had a stockpile of PMAGs (built really for one platform) then couldn't use it on an international standard would make me hate the company that made such a gun to international standards.

6) There's more fanboy love for PMAGs than those who irrationally hate H&K. People complain the H&K rifles don't fit a badly-specced magazine? Is it also bad that a Porsche (H&K) doesn't have interchangeable parts (bolt carrier groups, for example) with a Corvette (most every other AR15)? A regular AR15 is to the Honda Civic as the H&K MR556A1 is to an (insert European Car). Both perform exactly the same intended task. Both are sufficient. Both have parts that maybe interchange (screws, radio, rear view mirror). Both are in different price brackets. It seems the Civic owners are complaining about the pricing of the European Car and are complaining about it any way they can. I'm sure someone who buys an MR556 was planning to tear it apart and put in a Spikes lower so they fit PMAGs.

7) I assume those with 20+ magazines are going to war and that initial investment of $20 magazines strapped to you weighs you down in more ways than one.

8) Do those who possess dozens of magazines really bring them to the range at once? The most I see people carry is about 5 and everyone else is loading them on the spot. Is the cost such an issue for most people? It's an expensive hobby when every shot costs $.30.

Sturnovik
03-10-2012, 6:20 PM
Yea I'm new to rifles but I'm liking pmags, there everywhere. I hardly ever see steel usgi mags, been trying to find 10/20,10/30 and rebuilds but don't know the brands. I do want some metal ones.