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brighamr
04-06-2007, 11:11 AM
from reading the 'why don't we sue' thread, several members had pm'd me regarding the pre-organization of a california case. Something that can be well organized and funded while waiting for the parker case to finalize (08). This thread is basically a place to gather statistics on who would help and how. I know, organizing a case like this is a HUGE deal, but if we can get enough people to sign on - including the NRA - then we may have a chance of hiring the parker lawyers and eventually getting our rights back in california.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO POST IN THIS THREAD, PLEASE KEEP IT POSITIVE AND CONSTRUCTIVE!!! All the useless "wait until" and "nice try, but" posts can and should be posted elsewhere.

Here are the things I see as needing to be done, please advise if you have more ideas or better ideas:

1) setup an anonymous, independant legal fund for this cause. (I will research this and post the institutions available)
2) solicit the NRA
3) gather all information related to CA firearms laws (I have an online server with plenty of storage, so if someone volunteers for this task, I'll give you an ftp account and setup a search page to index all the documents)
4) solicit firearms manufacturers\dealers for their support.
5) solicit other states for support (through forums, clubs, ranges, etc)
6) inform the parker lawyers of our intent and ask them for their support\guidance

That's what I can think of for now. If you want to help, please reply and state what tasks you want to take on. This is a real chance to make a difference and actually do something pro-active to get our rights back. Please keep that in mind and keep this thread productive. The poll is anonymous and is merely to gather stats on what people are willing to do to get rid of the CA AW ban.

DRM6000
04-06-2007, 11:21 AM
there isn't much i can possibly do to help, but i can help fund this effort.

SunshineGlocker
04-06-2007, 11:22 AM
My positive and constructive post: The NRA already has the legal contacts, and the organization in place, to do this type of thing. If this type of thing is possible at all, my suggestion is that the NRA should start a California Legal Attack Foundation (ok, some better name, but you get the idea). We should ride on the NRA's existing strengths (organization, brand name, professional staff) and channel our energies into that. Starting a professional org from scratch is hard. The alternative would be for CalGuns.net itself to become a professional organization. How many here would pay $25 / year to be CalGuns.net members? Could that be the nucleus of a professional California gun organization?

aileron
04-06-2007, 11:32 AM
6) inform the parker lawyers of our intent and ask them for their support\guidance

I do believe its Robert A. Levy that you need to chat with. Not his lawyers. He's the money in this game. I'm sure the lawyers are not doing this for free. Levy, might be interested.

SAF, KABA, and CCRKBA might also want to get in, if you get some steam going. If you get that much going, NRA will probably get going on it as well. If anything, maybe they will all play nice together, and learn how big a force they are together. Which would be very good. :D

Aint politics a pain. :(

tgriffin
04-06-2007, 11:36 AM
Im ready to take a stand.

SunshineGlocker
04-06-2007, 11:44 AM
By the way, the hardest part of all this is not really the money. It's the leadership. Someone needs to be a leader of this, be willing to do it full-time before there's any money.

Kestryll
04-06-2007, 11:50 AM
Starting a professional org from scratch is hard. The alternative would be for CalGuns.net itself to become a professional organization. How many here would pay $25 / year to be CalGuns.net members? Could that be the nucleus of a professional California gun organization?


This has come up before, the idea of Calguns becoming a recognized club or organization, this is some of what I found out from those who do this type of thing.

There are certain requirements (legal and otherwise) that we would fall under upon forming a "structured" framework such as a club or other organization.

For example: since CGN actively promotes legislative issues, if it were formalized and raised/spent a certain amount of money, it would have to register and file with various state/local/federal agencies (as applicable). Additionally, we would need to hire attorneys, accountants, etc. to manage the business, lobbying, sales, membership, etc. aspects of the "club."

We would also I suspect rise to a different level of accountability for what is posted here and have to be much more stringent in what we allow to be said.

There is some value in looking in to this for the future or as a seperate but connected entity but to try and do it from where we are at would cost us much of what Calguns is.


On a side note I added one answer to the poll.
This isn't CNN where polls have a choice of agree with the point or be left with denying your position.

brighamr
04-06-2007, 11:52 AM
Just contacted the NRA regarding a california legal fund and organization of a violation of 2A case. Will post again when response is recieved. For those of you who polled stating you'd help with the organization, post here what you'd like to do so i can cross it off the list.

I agree, starting an entire .org is hard, so I'm hoping we can work off the existing NRA capabilities. I want to ensure though, that all money donated towards this cause go specifically to the cause and not to other NRA activities.

The parties mentioned a couple posts above, who wants to take charge of contacting them? (I can get the NRA fund setup, and organize some fund raising events, but I can't do all the work myself. If you to be involved, reply what you will do and then do it. We need to work together on this)

proraptor
04-06-2007, 12:21 PM
Im also ready to take a stand.....Too many of my rights have been taken away....Im not sure how we could raise money but it cant be that hard....Maybe post signs in local gun stores for advertising....Im sure local gun stores would cooperate...

brighamr
04-06-2007, 12:28 PM
to raise funds, I was thinking of a few ideas:

OLL raffle
firearm related auction (yes I can host this)
sell T-shirts, hats, etc (yes I have the facilities to make these)
advertising through the NRA, ILA, and other pro-2A organizations


If we have enough people who 'think that now is the appropriate time to act' there's a good chance I could get this on the news. (yes I have contacts)


In light of the revised poll, I'm thinking that creating a different site specifically for this cause may be a good idea. A place where those who want their rights back can be heard and can take action rather than just talk, talk, wait, talk. It would be free to join, but would revolve around activity not talk. Tell me if you agree that this is a good idea, and I'll have it online within a few hours.

I don't mean to demean CGN, I'm just saying that it's better to be proactive than wait for the new anti bills to pass.

SunshineGlocker
04-06-2007, 12:40 PM
For example: since CGN actively promotes legislative issues, if it were formalized and raised/spent a certain amount of money, it would have to register and file with various state/local/federal agencies (as applicable). Additionally, we would need to hire attorneys, accountants, etc. to manage the business, lobbying, sales, membership, etc. aspects of the "club."

Yes, the grim realities of dealing with money, especially the money amounts needed for a real court case (> $100k just to get started). That's why I was so negative in the "why don't we just sue". Start factoring in all the overhead costs of dealing with just having an organization, and in reality, unless you get a few wealthy donors who are all over it, it's not going to happen as an independent organziation.

That's why I'm suggesting that, if we want to do this, the NRA create an NRA-affiliated foundation here in California. There's no other realistic way I can think of, and doing it in affiliation with the NRA has so many advantages. They already have all this infrastructure stuff worked out and in place.

It's either the NRA, or a wealthy donor.

This isn't a bad situation, but we need to know what the real options are.

bwiese
04-06-2007, 12:42 PM
Lotsa enthusiasm, way too early to go half-cocked.

Let's stay focused.

Right now our battles are with DOJ and their "regulations du jour" attitudes, and OLL arrests. We got dudes with BS felony charges we have to help out.

When things evolve, we can get hundreds of people to apply for AW permits, get denied, and then we have standing.

Remember, if Parker ends up landing right - and there's a good chance of that - the AR15 will ultimately be the most protected firearm of all ;)

Kestryll
04-06-2007, 12:47 PM
In light of the revised poll, I'm thinking that creating a different site specifically for this cause may be a good idea. A place where those who want their rights back can be heard and can take action rather than just talk, talk, wait, talk. It would be free to join, but would revolve around activity not talk. Tell me if you agree that this is a good idea, and I'll have it online within a few hours.

I don't mean to demean CGN, I'm just saying that it's better to be proactive than wait for the new anti bills to pass.


Proactive is fine and I really do not have a problem with what you are trying to do here. However we have to guard against becoming what we oppose.

How many CNN or MSNBC polls have you seen and gotten steaming mad at because they offer 'scripted answers' that only allow for their desired out come?

We need to do it better than they do it and we can.

CalNRA
04-06-2007, 12:53 PM
I am ready to donate for this effort. I passed two chances to build up an OLL in donating to various levels of NRA;s organizations and am willing to do it again and again.

I am ready to apply for an AW permit, just let us know the procedures involved so we do everything by the book and not mess up on any technicalities.

SunshineGlocker
04-06-2007, 1:20 PM
Lotsa enthusiasm, way too early to go half-cocked.

Yes. Realisticly, starting an independent foundation to file a lawsuit for CA's gun rights is something far in the distance.

As for applying for AW permits, I would totally do that!

Remember, if Parker ends up landing right - and there's a good chance of that - the AR15 will ultimately be the most protected firearm of all ;)

Bzzzt! Don't you mean, "if Parker ends up landing right - and there's a good chance of that - the M4 will ultimately be the most protected firearm of all "? Hehehe.

brighamr
04-06-2007, 2:22 PM
:) This thread turned into another 'its too early'-'too much effort'-'lets not do anything and just talk about doing things' thread. (just like so many others on CGN)

I'm ****ing sick of this board. The other states don't like ca gun owners because WE let our rights slip away. WE didn't act when needed and WE don't do anything proactive. I call organizations out of state and they wont help because there aren't enough people in California that will fight for their rights (except the liberals). After reading this thread, I completely agree with them.

Kestryll - please delete my account, I don't want to be associated with the 'we can't become a real organization, but we can keep taking money from advertising' board.

Good by to those that actually wanted to get your rights back. Hopefully one of you can pick up where I left off and get the NRA to have a case here. As for me, I'm not wasting any more effort on the lazy-*** people who post in this forum.

bwiese
04-06-2007, 2:33 PM
Kestryll - please delete my account, I don't want to be associated with the 'we can't become a real organization, but we can keep taking money from advertising' board.

Good by to those that actually wanted to get your rights back. Hopefully one of you can pick up where I left off and get the NRA to have a case here. As for me, I'm not wasting any more effort on the lazy-*** people who post in this forum.

Don't let the door hit you too hard on your arse, Mr. Silviera.

proraptor
04-06-2007, 4:19 PM
:) This thread turned into another 'its too early'-'too much effort'-'lets not do anything and just talk about doing things' thread. (just like so many others on CGN)

I'm ****ing sick of this board. The other states don't like ca gun owners because WE let our rights slip away. WE didn't act when needed and WE don't do anything proactive. I call organizations out of state and they wont help because there aren't enough people in California that will fight for their rights (except the liberals). After reading this thread, I completely agree with them.

Kestryll - please delete my account, I don't want to be associated with the 'we can't become a real organization, but we can keep taking money from advertising' board.

Good by to those that actually wanted to get your rights back. Hopefully one of you can pick up where I left off and get the NRA to have a case here. As for me, I'm not wasting any more effort on the lazy-*** people who post in this forum.

Dont leave and dont be intimidated by the "godly" here....Lets put something together Im sick of dealing with crap

SunshineGlocker
04-06-2007, 4:27 PM
Yes, those who are sick of this crap and willing to take action, please do so. If your resolve is so fragile that a few anonymous nay-sayers on a forum will shake you, then it's not going to happen. If your resolve is strong enough, then it will happen no matter what ninnies like me say. But in either case, make it happen, don't ask us for approval.

hi_desert
04-06-2007, 4:31 PM
Dont leave and dont be intimidated by the "godly" here....Lets put something together Im sick of dealing with crap

+1, An old cliche comes to mind, united we stand, divided we fall.

Satex
04-06-2007, 4:35 PM
This has come up before, the idea of Calguns becoming a recognized club or organization, this is some of what I found out from those who do this type of thing.


The idea is nice but has risks associated with it. If this board becomes legally affiliated with a club (i.e. formal corporation) there would be liability involved that may turn the nature of this board upside down.

If the members of this board want to form a club, no issues, but we should always keep this forum non-affiliated in order to maintain the independence and quality.

chris
04-06-2007, 4:37 PM
i would love to see the parker case go our way but too early to tell. but my fingers are crossed that we will prevail in the end.

hoffmang
04-06-2007, 5:02 PM
It is a waste of time to try to get a follow up case to Parker until Parker is decided.

Also, California may not be the best place for the next case. The next best case might be New York City because it will be exactly the same case as Parker except it will raise only the question of whether the Second Amendment applies to the states.

The only California case worth doing in the near term will be around AWs, non AWs, and SB-23 as a follow up to Hunt. However, we need to see what the final outcome of the rulemaking is before we move forward.

For once we're waiting for things that help us instead of hurt us. Please realize the difference.

And for those who are testy about waiting.... The last guy who went off half cocked and just decided to "do something" got the 9th Circuit to rule clearly that there is no Second Amendment in California. That was Mr. Silviera that Bill W was referring to.

You want to do something? Call the national NRA and make them explain why they're trying to moot Parker.

-Gene

SunshineGlocker
04-06-2007, 5:35 PM
It is a waste of time to try to get a follow up case to Parker until Parker is decided.

That's right. It will have finished its appeals and be 100% concluded within a couple of years.

Also, California may not be the best place for the next case. The next best case might be New York City because it will be exactly the same case as Parker except it will raise only the question of whether the Second Amendment applies to the states.

Gee you're being too rational here. If we could find 10,000 people on CalGuns.net who would each chip in $30, we would have enough money to file a case here. Oh wait... are there even 10,000 active members?

And for those who are testy about waiting.... The last guy who went off half cocked and just decided to "do something" got the 9th Circuit to rule clearly that there is no Second Amendment in California. That was Mr. Silviera that Bill W was referring to.

Hey I have a better idea: do some fund raising and work for this guy's case:

http://americancommondefencereview.blogspot.com/

http://bp0.blogger.com/_YjUaICdu3lA/RddZ_iwl9OI/AAAAAAAAAAg/JYuvSMV3D5g/s320/__Don-Hamrick-wearing-suit-33.jpg

Send him $30!

bwiese
04-06-2007, 5:35 PM
You want to do something? Call the national NRA and make them explain why they're trying to moot Parker.
-Gene

I posted this in another thread but it's worth repeating:


Check this out guys and gals.
http://www.packing.org/community/general/listview/22345


I'll quote here in case linky disappears, etc.

For reference, Chris Cox is NRA's chief lobbyist, and additionally chairs NRA-PVF.

Bold/underline stuff is mine, and I trust this poster.


Chris Cox Called

First, thanks to PDO poster Varminter 22 and to Cam Edwards of NRA News for arranging the conversation.

Chris and I spoke for nearly 30 minutes about my concerns about the NRA's handling of the Parker decision and the related bills introduced in the House and Senate which, if passed and signed, would moot the Parker decision.

He and I agree that Parker represents an "almost unimaginable opportunity" to change for the positive the course of firearms matters for decades to come.

Chris confirmed the NRA position is to do nothing which would damage Parker's potential, nothing that would make the matter moot. Given my own confidence (optimism?) on Parker's eventual treatment en banc and before the Supreme Court, Chris' thinking is very reassuring. He agrees, too, that the case will go all the way to SCOTUS.

I believe that Wayne LaPierre told Robert Levy,

"You can take it to the bank. The NRA will not do anything to prevent the Supreme Court from reviewing Parker.”

I also believe he means it.

I can accept that there were differing opinions at the beginning of the case four years ago over whether the timing was right or not given the make-up of the then Supreme Court.

I can also accept Chris' professional opinion that it remains important to continue to push on the legislative side, to continue to line up your friends as well as your enemies on the issues on a constant basis, if for no other reason than to have the politicians on record when the next election rolls around. He points out that legislation moves at a glacial pace, that it took seven years to pass the bill protecting the manufacturers from malicious litigation.

I am struck by the intellectual firepower Chris and his team have devoted to consideration of the various trade-offs, how to maximize the upside and balance the downside. These guys know what they're doing and are intent on succeeding. Their definition of success matches my own. They want to win. Widely and well.

Most impressive. More power to them.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am an Endowment member, my wife is a Life member and our 8-year old daughter is an Endowment member.

Next month our two little boys will become Life members, too.

GlockFamilyMan




I don't think national NRA thought we folks would be paying as much attention to Parker and just didn't get their message out.

Four years ago was a long time - NRA may not have wanted to risk it then, but they ain't gonna throw it down the drain now.

xenophobe
04-06-2007, 6:25 PM
:) This thread turned into another 'its too early'-'too much effort'-'lets not do anything and just talk about doing things' thread. (just like so many others on CGN)

I'm ****ing sick of this board. The other states don't like ca gun owners because WE let our rights slip away. WE didn't act when needed and WE don't do anything proactive. I call organizations out of state and they wont help because there aren't enough people in California that will fight for their rights (except the liberals). After reading this thread, I completely agree with them.

Kestryll - please delete my account, I don't want to be associated with the 'we can't become a real organization, but we can keep taking money from advertising' board.

Good by to those that actually wanted to get your rights back. Hopefully one of you can pick up where I left off and get the NRA to have a case here. As for me, I'm not wasting any more effort on the lazy-*** people who post in this forum.

Since you're not getting your way you're being a whiney four legged canine?

I'm sorry you don't recognize that the time isn't right at this moment. There are too many things going on, and until Parker has a SCOTUS ruling, it's pointless.

There is no California RKBA amendment in the California Constitution. Bans, limits on individual freedom of firearm ownership and restrictions are Constitutional by 9th Circuit decree.

Fighting any restrictions on the grounds that is unconstitutional will fail. It did for Roberti-Roos, it did for SB-23. It will again and again until we get some finality with Parker and SCOTUS.

You might as well place bets on who will win the Stanley Cup or World Series in 2010. You'll have a better chance of winning.

You've been a member here for what, almost 6 months, but you want the world. Get a grip on reality.

hoffmang
04-06-2007, 9:17 PM
1. Parker will likely be heard this fall in the Supreme Court. We should have a decision during 2008 - likely summer.

2. Bill: I hadn't seen the thread on packing.org when I posted my thoughts above. I'm willing to accept Chris Cox's statement for now.

-Gene

artherd
04-07-2007, 2:18 AM
Remember, if Parker ends up landing right - and there's a good chance of that - the Select-Fire M4 will ultimately be the most protected firearm of all ;)

There, fixed it for ya ;)

Kestryll
04-08-2007, 12:32 AM
:) This thread turned into another 'its too early'-'too much effort'-'lets not do anything and just talk about doing things' thread. (just like so many others on CGN)

I'm ****ing sick of this board. The other states don't like ca gun owners because WE let our rights slip away. WE didn't act when needed and WE don't do anything proactive. I call organizations out of state and they wont help because there aren't enough people in California that will fight for their rights (except the liberals). After reading this thread, I completely agree with them.

Kestryll - please delete my account, I don't want to be associated with the 'we can't become a real organization, but we can keep taking money from advertising' board.

Good by to those that actually wanted to get your rights back. Hopefully one of you can pick up where I left off and get the NRA to have a case here. As for me, I'm not wasting any more effort on the lazy-*** people who post in this forum.

I should let this thread drift off in to obscurity where it belongs but there are some statements here that require responses.

First and most important, with all due respect you have a lot of nerve having come here only 5 months ago and spouting off about how the people here are 'lazy-***' and 'letting our rights slip away'.
Where were you last year? Where were you when members of this board put forth time, effort, money and in some cases risked prosecution and their livelihood in order to both change the laws and prevent new restriction from passing in to law?
What did you risk in this fight? Your job? Your freedom? Your money? Or just your time to write messages demeaning other who are doing the work?

Even without the OLL changes that came about last year no new laws passed last year, let's hear that again, NO NEW LAWS PASSED LAST YEAR. CalNRA and the members of this both put a whole lot of time and effort to achieve that. Many here filled the hearings in person and filled the mailboxes and email boxes of the legislature and flooded their phone systems with calls.
In the case of the OLLs members here risked both prosecution and persecution in that battle. Members here risked considerable money, FFLs here risked their job and license and were harassed by the DOJ for standing up and being counted and some members are still out money and are still spending it fighting the illegal seizure of property.

On a another note in regards to your comment, "we can't become a real organization" when this last came up I spoke with leaders of some of the major organizations including the biggest progun group in California. I learned what was really involved and what beyond money it would cost Calguns as a forum. We already have a loud voice right now and we benefit from being just what we are, a group of citizens who are working within the system. Merging with or becoming a recognized organization will change our voice and cost us some of the freedom to discuss that we currently have for not much gain.
This hasn't been done not because we are too lazy or inactive but because we are looking down the road not just tomorrow but next year and beyond. This fight didn't just start and it won't be won next week, it will be won by people who took the long view and work one brick at a time to remove the wall around our rights.

The 'lazy-***' people making you '****ing sick' are the ones doing what you're preaching. You may want to learn the history before you take off in a huff.

brighamr
06-26-2008, 10:11 AM
Thread necromancy -

I just thought it interesting that the NRA agreed with my idea, and will be filing suits in Chicago, San Francisco and other cities with strict gun control.

I guess being organized ahead of time WAS the right thing to do.

I hope for your sake, CA, that the suit in San Francisco goes well. Just think, if you had started organizing when this thread was started, you could potentially have a state wide suit against the AWB. Now, you might get the handgun ban in SF overturned but even that will be difficult with lack of gunowner effort...

Good luck!!!