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Serpentine
04-06-2007, 11:33 AM
Does anyone know how this new law, effective 7/1/2008, will affect C&R and gunsmith licensees who do not show up on the DOJ's Centralized list (where I presume the "verification number" will be generated from)?

At first, this new law looks benign, and afterall, "the industry and NRA support it," but how does it affect the end user? I suspect we will be seeing a lot more of "NO SALES TO CALIFORNIA!"

chiefcrash
04-06-2007, 11:51 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=52155&highlight=2521

not sure about gunsmiths, but check out post 102 on page 3:



(c) (1) Any person licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing
with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code as a dealer,
pawnbroker, importer, or manufacturer of firearms whose licensed
premises are within this state shall not import or receive firearms
from any source unless [the person licensed whose licensed premises
are within this state is] listed on the centralized list of firearms
dealers pursuant to Section 12071, or the centralized list of
exempted federal firearms licensees pursuant to subdivision (a), or
the centralized list of firearms manufacturers pursuant to
subdivision (f) of Section 12086.

Since collectors are not listed I would think that means they are not covered by this.

you should be good to go. the main problem will be those out of state FFLs going "no sales of anything to california because we don't have the unique dealer number the DOJ requires"

hoffmang
04-06-2007, 6:18 PM
1. C&R and gunsmiths aren't impacted.

2. Note that the way this works is that regular FFLs will have to get a receipt number for the guns they ship to CA 01 FFLs. It doesn't require out of state FFLs to be listed or registered. I actually think there will be a way to back fill the receipt number by CA FFLs when out of state FFLs forget.

-Gene

xenophobe
04-06-2007, 7:33 PM
1. C&R and gunsmiths aren't impacted.

Until we see the regulatory code, you can't be sure of this.


2. Note that the way this works is that regular FFLs will have to get a receipt number for the guns they ship to CA 01 FFLs. It doesn't require out of state FFLs to be listed or registered. I actually think there will be a way to back fill the receipt number by CA FFLs when out of state FFLs forget.

Again, this hasn't been exactly defined yet. We still need to wait and see.

hoffmang
04-06-2007, 10:14 PM
C&R's are not included in the legislation and CA DOJ can't make new law. That would also exclude gunsmiths on the same basis.

I will agree that there are more risks around interpretation of the out of state FFL issue, but commerce clause and federal preemption will generally mean that CA DOJ trying to interpret the law in the way you're supposing is not legal.

-Gene

EOD Guy
09-24-2007, 6:20 AM
C&R's are not included in the legislation and CA DOJ can't make new law. That would also exclude gunsmiths on the same basis.
-Gene

But aren't gunsmiths licensed as dealers. I don't think there is any such thing as a gunsmith FFL.

bwiese
09-24-2007, 9:31 AM
But aren't gunsmiths licensed as dealers. I don't think there is any such thing as a gunsmith FFL.

Quite a few gunsmiths have mfgrg FFLs: they can accept and return firearms for repair, or mfgr firearms (w/taxes paid) but they cannot engage in the retail trade of firearms and rely on another FFL for that.

halifax
03-12-2008, 9:06 PM
Quite a few gunsmiths have mfgrg FFLs: they can accept and return firearms for repair, or mfgr firearms (w/taxes paid) but they cannot engage in the retail trade of firearms and rely on another FFL for that.

Hate to necro-post but this is a relevant update, I think.

Saw a DOJ BOF Information Bulletin (2008-BOF-01) today that says:

Beginning January 1, 2008, pursuant to PC Section 12083, it will be unlawful for an FFL (type 01, 02, 07, 08, 09, 10, or 11) to receive firearms in accordance with his or her status as an FFL unless he/she is on one of the Centralized Lists (Exempted Federal Firearms Licensees, Firearm Dealers, or Firearms Manufacturers).

To be placed on the Centralized List of Exempted Federal Firearms Licensees, an applicant must:

(1) Possess a vaid federal firearms license as a dealer, pawnbroker, importer, or manufacturer of firearms and
(2)Possess a valid Certificate of Eligibility (COE) issued by DOJ. Initial application fee is $73. Annual renewal fee is $22 and
(3) Complete and submit the Application and 12070 PC Exemption Declaration for Centralized List Exempted Federal Firearms Licensees (BOF 10-07). Initial application fee and annual renewal fee is $115.

...

Beginning July 1, 2008, PC Section 12072(f)(1) prohibits all FFL holders (other than Type 03 or 06) from delivering, selling, or transferring a firearm (excluding curio & relic long guns) to an FFL in California unless, prior to delivery, the person intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearm obtains a verification number from the DOJ. THIS INCLUDES CALIFORNIA FIREARM DEALERS AND MANUFACTURERS WHO ARE ACTIVE ON THE DOJ CENTRALIZED LIST, WHO TRANSFER FIREARMS TO ANOTHER FFL WITHIN THE STATE.

To facilitate the new requirement, DOJ has developed the California Firearms Licensee Check (CFLC) program which will allow FFLs to obtain firearms shipment verification numbers via the Internet prior to shipping firearms to any FFL in California. A FFL who does not have Internet access may obtain verification numbers from the DOJ by facsimile at (916) 263-0790 or by telephone at (916) 263-8100. Additional details regarding the CFLC system will be provided in a future Information Bulletin.

So I guess it begins.

(1) CA FFL holders (except 03 or 06) who have not been dealing firearms in CA will now have to pay to be included on a centalized list in order to receive firearms.

(2) DOJ, presumably, will have the internet site in place by July.

(3) Non-FFLs will still be able to send firearms to CA FFLs without the verification number from DOJ. (This one is ambiguous due to the wording following "Beginning July 1, 2008..." above. It says "prohibits all FFL holders..." then later says "...prior to delivery, the person...".)

Just FYI

hoffmang
03-12-2008, 9:45 PM
It's odd. The Bulletin is not available on the web.

I think they are incorrect about who must get checked and if they don't correct it, it would be an underground regulation.

-Gene

swhatb
03-12-2008, 9:49 PM
Will DOJ know what type of firearms are being sent to the FFL here?

Wonder if this will help them with auditing. J-Smoe FFL ordered 100 OLL :eek:

H Paul Payne
03-12-2008, 10:01 PM
At first, this new law looks benign, and afterall, "the industry and NRA support it,"

Where do you get your information that "NRA support(s) it" ?

What is your source?

Paul

ETD1010
03-12-2008, 10:40 PM
I'm having issues with this as well with out shop. .. I mean, if someone buys a gun at a gun show, and then wants us to transfer it.... we can't take posession until DOJ approves... so then the dealer who sold it has to ship it to us AFTER the approval?? Or something? (The dealer that is based somewhere in California). Had a long talk with a DOJ lady today and I still didn't get it. :confused:

xenophobe
03-15-2008, 12:11 AM
It's odd. The Bulletin is not available on the web.

I think they are incorrect about who must get checked and if they don't correct it, it would be an underground regulation.

-Gene

Told you so. :p

hoffmang
03-15-2008, 12:05 PM
I have a copy that I'll be posting shortly. It appears that they are being correct about their actual interpretation of the law and the situation is even better than we had thought.

I'll start a new thread.

Edit: They posted it here: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/2008-BOF-01.pdf

-Gene

hoffmang
03-15-2008, 12:40 PM
I started a new thread - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=91560

-Gene

Nodda Duma
03-15-2008, 2:12 PM
Here is the pertinent code describing exclusion of C&R's.

PC Section 12078(t)(2)


(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of
Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or
relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but
not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title
27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

-Jason

H Paul Payne
03-17-2008, 4:10 PM
At first, this new law looks benign, and afterall, "the industry and NRA support it,"

Where do you get your information that "NRA support(s) it" ?

What is your source?

Paul

Is that the sound of crickets chirping?? :rolleyes:

hoffmang
03-18-2008, 2:15 PM
Paul,

I think you were looking for the emoticon named after me:
:gene:

-Gene