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animossity
02-28-2012, 11:54 PM
I sold my first AR and I really regret it. However I get the chance to build another. ;)

The more I look at the AR pistols they look like alot of fun. I know there are some loopholes to jump throught to obtain one. I've done some skimming through here researching them but my question is, how are these performance wise to a regular length rifle AR? I'm not gonna be doing anything crazy just doing alot of range paper shooting and eventually would like to get into 3 gun.

is there a difference in accuracy/performance on these? I heard since they're shorter you need different springs for the buffer tube etc. due to pressure. I don't think I will be shooting at anything further then 150 yards with it.

If the performance is considerably different I would rather build myself a regular sized AR first then do a pistol one down the road.

Munny$hot
02-29-2012, 7:25 AM
For papper punching it awesome, but for stopping power it's nothing more than a hot .22 because of the shortened barrel the muzzle velocity is drasticly reduced not allowing the bullet to fragment. An excellent alternative that use the same bolt, mags, brass, etc (only diffferance is the barrel) is AAC Black Out (.300 cal bullet). The biggest down fall is chea ammo unless you reload and effectivity pass 250-300 meters. Since its a pistol the longer distances don't effect your application.

animossity
02-29-2012, 8:54 AM
For papper punching it awesome, but for stopping power it's nothing more than a hot .22 because of the shortened barrel the muzzle velocity is drasticly reduced not allowing the bullet to fragment. An excellent alternative that use the same bolt, mags, brass, etc (only diffferance is the barrel) is AAC Black Out (.300 cal bullet). The biggest down fall is chea ammo unless you reload and effectivity pass 250-300 meters. Since its a pistol the longer distances don't effect your application.

Thanks, this is the kind of stuff I was wondering about. I'll stick to a regular AR for now.

ChrisO
02-29-2012, 9:14 AM
You will not loose total performance of the AR like the above poster said thats just BS. It really depends on how short of a barrel you go with. If you go with a proper twist and a 12.5 upper it will still be very effective. For 3 gun it is better to go with a full-size rifle/carbine.

Munny$hot
02-29-2012, 10:02 AM
If it all depends on barrel lenght how is what I posted total bs? Try and be more precise instead of contradicting yourself. Generaly ar pistols are 7.5"-10". A 12.5" is silly for a pistol set up. You really need to read up on fragmenation/cavatation and the velocity needed in order to achive it.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-29-2012, 11:23 AM
No, most pistols I have seen have 10.5-11.5" barrels. There is nothing silly about a 12.5 inch barrel. We are not allowed to have SBRs in this state, so these pistols are about as close as we can legally come to them. That is what nearly all the ones I have seen are made for. The performace isn't as good as a carbine. You are losing 400-600 fps usually. But even at 2300 fps, a 55 grain bullet still has nearly 650 foot pounds of energy. I wouldn't call that a "hot .22". That is more energy than almost any handgun out there, barring some magnums and hunting rounds. And while fragmentation may be reduced, with modern expanding bullets, that point is moot. And .300 Blackout? Really? An ultra-expensive round with a limited following and even more limited reloading supplies is the answer to the OP's question? Have you ever shot one? Have you ever tried to find brass? Or dies? Have you ever made the brass yourself? Just because it is all the rage at places like Arfcom doesn't make it an end-all, be-all solution for everything. A 6.8 would be a better choice for what you are describing, as brass and dies are available and inexpensive. And it was designed from the get-go to work in 12" barrels. But again, it is also far more expensive than a plain old vanilla .223 Rem.

As for the OP, yes, AR pistols are fun. But if you are looking at doing 3 gun matches or just punching paper, a simple 16" carbine might be a better choice. You do get better performance, and a shoulder stock to help with bracing the gun while you aim. I don't have any different springs or buffers on mine. In fact, one of them is using a standard 6 position stock tube, with a carbine spring and buffer. It is modified so that it can't accept a stock, but that is an external modification, that doesn't effect the function. Accuracy is usually better than most people can shoot, but that is also a function of the lack of a stock making it more difficult to aim at longer distances. With a red dot scope on one of mine, I am able to keep most of my shots in the 10 ring at about 50 yards. It will shoot minute-of-deer or minute-of-thug at that range easily, but it wouldn't be my first choice. At 25 yards, I can shoot 1 inch groups all day.

-Mb

Munny$hot
02-29-2012, 12:49 PM
Yes, yes and yes, but then again I "Really" said 300AAC was at a dis-advantage/down fall.

MrPlink
02-29-2012, 6:07 PM
the mk18 has a barrel under 11inches, and when basically treated like a subgun seems to work just fine. Need I mention all the other super shorty military carbines out there?

mk18 is actually what influenced me to build an AR pistol.

(not mine)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/redfisher19/Mk18%20Mod0%20CQB-R/Mk18Colt-1.jpg

ChrisO
02-29-2012, 7:18 PM
I didn't contradict myself...try not getting so butthurt. What you said is FALSE and thats that...a 5.56 out of a 12.5 inch barrel is FAR from a hot .22lr. I read plenty on fragmentation/cavitation and am pretty much constantly studying some type of medical book. I have real world experience and have seen PLENTY of GSW's from short barrel 5.56 carbines. I don't get my information from armchair commandos. 12.5 is not silly for a pistol set up as it is about as close as we can get to a SBR here buddy.
If it all depends on barrel lenght how is what I posted total bs? Try and be more precise instead of contradicting yourself. Generaly ar pistols are 7.5"-10". A 12.5" is silly for a pistol set up. You really need to read up on fragmenation/cavatation and the velocity needed in order to achive it.

russ69
02-29-2012, 8:23 PM
He's shooting paper and steel, you don't need much energy to do that but at any rate a pistol length AR still has plenty of energy.

paratroop
02-29-2012, 8:33 PM
I'm beginning to hate my ar pistol. it is just too darn finicky. I think right now im hanging on to it just in case i ever move to a state where I can sbr it. now my Ar57 pistol is awesome, but if i ever move out of state, it is getting a buttstock and suppressor.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-29-2012, 10:04 PM
I'm beginning to hate my ar pistol. it is just too darn finicky. I think right now im hanging on to it just in case i ever move to a state where I can sbr it. now my Ar57 pistol is awesome, but if i ever move out of state, it is getting a buttstock and suppressor.

What is yours doing? What kind is it? I have dumped everything from Cheap Federal to Tula to green tips through mine with no issues. Does yours have a really short (under 9") barrel? Is your gas port big enough? My 10.5 inch came as a pistol barrel. I was told that the gas port was the correct size, but I didn't get more information than that.

-Mb

itisagoodname
02-29-2012, 11:32 PM
Wondering as well. The shortest AR pistol barrel i can find is 6.5" which from what i've read is the absolute bare minimum legally. (?)

Anyone have any experience with anything that short?

Falstaff
02-29-2012, 11:34 PM
My 7.5" spike's "concussion" pistol got 2,100+ at 3-4 feet from muZzle (some people on arfcom report 2450fps w/55 grain 5.56 less with .223)
Which yields about 605 ft lbs at the muzzle- quite a bit more than a "hot .22"...
(2100x2100x55/400500=605 ft lbs)-- Far more energy than a 9 mm. I haven't tested on anything scientific like ballistic jello but I can tell you that bullets recovered from dirt berms are totally mangled and broken.

ArkinDomino
02-29-2012, 11:48 PM
I can hit the 300 yard plates at Angeles with my PWS Diablo while prone.

MrPlink
03-01-2012, 12:09 AM
even if ur AR only had a 3in barrel, I still wouldnt want to stand in front of it

unusedusername
03-01-2012, 12:37 AM
even if ur AR only had a 3in barrel, I still wouldnt want to stand in front of it

QFT

According to FBI data, most deaths from firearms are caused by .22lr.

GlockDan
03-01-2012, 5:34 AM
For my understanding the National Firearms Act / NFA is federal law which apply to most, if not all states. There is permits that one will need to accuaier to accomplish what ever it is they want. The part that is virtuly difficult, better said impossible is getting the CLEO sign off!
But there's ways Arround this. Heres a link that will explain better.
http://californianfatrust.com/
AOW's take about 4 months waiting all in all I think it's worth the wait. Other states have the same time frame or longer.
SBS is an AOW and there's a $5 dollar tax stamp & a form 4
Hope this helps clear some clouded minds.

Munny$hot
03-01-2012, 6:23 AM
I didn't contradict myself...try not getting so butthurt. What you said is FALSE and thats that...a 5.56 out of a 12.5 inch barrel is FAR from a hot .22lr. I read plenty on fragmentation/cavitation and am pretty much constantly studying some type of medical book. I have real world experience and have seen PLENTY of GSW's from short barrel 5.56 carbines. I don't get my information from armchair commandos. 12.5 is not silly for a pistol set up as it is about as close as we can get to a SBR here buddy.

Try and re read my first post there is no mention 12.5 barrel right?, so you did contradicte yourself by sayingYou will not loose total performance of the AR like the above poster said thats just BS. It really depends on how short of a barrel you go with. If you go with a proper twist and a 12.5 upper it will still be very effective. For 3 gun it is better to go with a full-size rifle/carbine.Have you made up mind yet? does it or doesn't it depend on barrel length? Actually it is silly having a 12.5 barrel for your fantasy "CA SBR" since a 14.5" with a permently attached 1.5" flash hider/brake 16" rifle is more viable choice. It's almost the same lenght and is eaiser to control than trying to use a buffer tube as a stock jammed into your face/shoulder. Try to run your 12.5 pistol in an advanced carbine class to see how unrealistick it is as a fighting platform. As far as velcocity goes yes a 12.5 to a 11.5 will produce enough energy to fragment a 5.56, but then again I was refering to a 7.5"-10" barrel without contradicting my statement.

gun toting monkeyboy
03-01-2012, 9:26 AM
For my understanding the National Firearms Act / NFA is federal law which apply to most, if not all states. There is permits that one will need to accuaier to accomplish what ever it is they want. The part that is virtuly difficult, better said impossible is getting the CLEO sign off!
But there's ways Arround this. Heres a link that will explain better.
http://californianfatrust.com/
AOW's take about 4 months waiting all in all I think it's worth the wait. Other states have the same time frame or longer.
SBS is an AOW and there's a $5 dollar tax stamp & a form 4
Hope this helps clear some clouded minds.

Ummm... A SBS is a SBS. An AOW is an AOW. They are different. And before you post advice on forums, you may want to check your facts. Not to be harsh, but NFA violations are not to be messed with.

SBS and SBR permits are all but impossible to get here in California. AOWs are do-able, but with these AR pistols, as long as we have the OAL greater than 26", the ATF doesn't consider them to be AOWs. And the State doesn't consider them to be "Assault Weapons" since they have bullet buttons. Hence all the interest in them. In all truth, they are mostly range toys. But since it is as close as most of us can get to an SBR here in the People's Republic, we all want them.

As for the Concussion pistol, yeah, mine did that too. I had a compensator on it, and it shook your fillings loose. The poor buggers in the lanes next to me actually go hit with a good size shockwave, and the fireball was about 5 feet across. I switched to a Smith Vortex flashider, and it has made a world of difference. There is no shockwave or fireball. No blinding white light. No loose fillings. And only a fraction more recoil. I miss the instant attention when I would light one off. But having a pistol that doesn't sound like an elephant gun makes shooting much more pleasant.

-Mb

paratroop
03-01-2012, 11:58 AM
What is yours doing? What kind is it? I have dumped everything from Cheap Federal to Tula to green tips through mine with no issues. Does yours have a really short (under 9") barrel? Is your gas port big enough? My 10.5 inch came as a pistol barrel. I was told that the gas port was the correct size, but I didn't get more information than that.

-Mb

It is a 7.5" asa upper, 80% lower, and a GSE shorty buffer tube. It used to work flawlessly with any type of ammo. one time it started short stroking, buffer tube came loose. tightened it, then it would really only run some steel cased TAP Hornady reliably. but now after 3 range trips, it hasnt run right with any ammo, and I cant seem to tune it correctly. I might end up changing out the shorty buffer with a regular one, and see if that helps.

On a side note, when it worked, my buddy could hit 300 meter targets, me not so much. So performance/accuracy-wise, still pretty darn good.

OffGrid
03-01-2012, 12:08 PM
OP, you probably would be better off doing a full size first. Never done 3 gun but having a stock just makes sense. Then when you build your pistol it can be just for fun and putting holes in stuff. All 3 of my pistols have heavier extractor springs, standard carbine buffer springs and H or H2 buffers. All 3 have decent accuracy out to 100 yards and silhouette size steel out at 250/300.

Munny$hot, your right you did not mention a 12.5” in your first post. It was your second post but semantics aside.

I have a 10.5” that I built a while back. It rides with me on the quad some of the time. I had to shoot at a couple hundred pound hog at about 80 to 90 yards out.

Still eating that jalapeno and cheddar sausage shot with that silly “hot 22” that actually penetrated and fragmented just fine.

But then I have not chrono’d the gun and have not done ballistics testing in gelatin. And I have not been to a carbine class or looked for others to tell me what my guns will do. I’m more of a, rely on the old freezer test kinda guy.

Paratroop, I see you’re in the 805. Now the 805 is about a 5 hour drive end to end but if you are close to Paso Robles maybe we can put our heads together and get it figured out for you. Next few weeks are shot with at least a branding every weekend but end of March or April I’m pretty open.

Munny$hot
03-01-2012, 2:17 PM
OffGrid, LOL your right but I should have been more specific on barrel length. It just like me claming I can consistantly hit a 8x8 steel plate out to 600-700 meters with a 5.56 AR pistol. Which is true if I mount a scoped 24" barreled upper on it and "yes this would also be silly" . The 5.56 main advantage over a heavier projectile is fragmentation/cavitation. Without the needed velocity and just hitting soft tissue it is just a hot .22 or to please the masses hot .22 + .003 = .223. Even a .22LR that hits/shatters bone can be fatal, so shot placemnet is critical with the proper velocity. Don't get me wrong I prefer the 5.56 platform over a 7.62x51 because of load out etc, but then again that's a whole other argument.:beatdeadhorse5: By the way a 10.5" AR pistol isn't silly, it's a 12.5" :facepalm: