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View Full Version : Q: How difficult to get law changed re. 2.5oz max for pepper spray?


Paladin
02-28-2012, 5:15 PM
Title pretty much says it all.

I was thinking about violent flash mobs, where they suddenly surround a car, smash the windows, and drag occupants out and beat and stomp on them. :eek:

While a LTC would be comforting and I know I could always just floor it ("Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!"), I'd also prefer to have a less/non-lethal alternative available, since "carry" size and weight are not a concern (e.g., glove box, central console).

If we go the way of Greece in a year or three, and I take a wrong turn and find myself suddenly in the midst of a mob/riot, I'd prefer the less legal drama that would accompany OCing a bunch of thugs vs shooting/squishing them. Either way, I won't become another Reginald Denny (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1cb_1304689062 ) without a fight.... :mad:

YxBRyygMmTs

I'd much prefer just to stick my arm out the window (if safe), and squirt away at the thugs with OC and then split.

QUESTIONS:

1) How difficult would it be to get Sacto to change the OC law to allow carry of 4 oz containers of pepper spray (vs the 2.5 oz legal limit today)? You'd think since they've just banned UOC and LTCs are hard to get they'd encourage carry of OC as a non/less-lethal alternative.

2) Acc to the law quoted here (post #2 at: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=540538 ):

Penal Code 22810
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person may purchase, possess, or use tear gas or any tear gas weapon for the projection or release of tear gas if the tear gas or tear gas weapon is used solely for self-defense purposes, subject to the following requirements:
(e)(1) No person shall purchase, possess, or use any tear gas weapon that expels a projectile, or that expels the tear gas by any method other than an aerosol spray, or that contains more than 2.5 ounces net weight of aerosol spray. (underlining added)

it looks like carrying multiple containers of 2.5 oz or less of OC is legal. True? If so, for now, I guess I'll stuff a few of those stubby 2 oz suckers into my central console.

3) Who would be the one(s) to push for this change: the CRPA? the NRA? CGNers on their own? other?

wildhawker
02-28-2012, 5:19 PM
You'll first need [at minimum] the major law enforcement groups to go neutral on such a proposal, or more likely to be endorsed by them in order to get it out of committee.

Practically, it's a political question with no real way to predict (as the factors are dynamic and subject to day-by-day wind-shifting and horse-trading.) Why would you think any gun group would spend scarce political capital on pepper spray?

-Brandon

ETA: Assuming you're talking about the 2013 leg cycle, since this one is pretty much done as far as new proposals go, I'd wait for the outcome of the elections and then see what the new body of members looks like. Have your proposal professionally written with a FAQ and start pitching it to members about December.

Paladin
02-28-2012, 5:45 PM
Thanks for the reply, Brandon.

I only mentioned the CRPA and NRA since they're for the RKBA and the right of self-defense and OC might, like nunchakus, fall under the description of "arms."

I know there's Knife Rights (http://kniferights.org/), but I don't know of pro-OC political orgs.

It's just something I thought of the other day and wanted to post about. Just musing at this point. 4 oz (or larger) would be nice, but, if I had to choose between the two, I'd rather have a Glock LS in .357 Sig with RDS, and a 25 rnd "happy stick" in such a scenario.... :25: (A folding shoulder stock would be too much to ask....)

Looks like: (1) political fight (vs legal/judicial); (2) pro-gun orgs won't waste political capital for it UNLESS it would be a very easy win (so that they'd get credit with little work); and (3) getting CLEO, CLEO Assoc, and/or LE Assoc to go at least neutral (and ideally support) would be necessary.

I wonder who would also support this: Feminists/Women's orgs/2nd A Sisters? Gay orgs/Pink Pistols? AA/black orgs?

Paladin
02-28-2012, 6:00 PM
Hate to bug you again, Brandon, but am I reading this law correctly? Is the limit on the size of the containers, not on the total amount of OC carried?

Carrying multiple 2 oz containers of FOX OC (vs only one 2 oz container) is something I can do on my own and do tonite.


QUESTIONS:

....

2) Acc to the law quoted here ...

it looks like carrying multiple containers of 2.5 oz or less of OC is legal. True?

Bobula
02-28-2012, 6:04 PM
I've always wondered about that outdated verbage. Mace was a "tear gas" aka CS or CN.
Pepper spray is not a gas its an oily resin containing Capsicum.

Librarian
02-28-2012, 6:13 PM
I've always wondered about that outdated verbage. Mace was a "tear gas" aka CS or CN.
Pepper spray is not a gas its an oily resin containing Capsicum.

Remember that the Leg. can make up any definition it wants - PC 17240(a) (a) As used in this part, "tear gas" applies to and includes
any liquid, gaseous or solid substance intended to produce temporary
physical discomfort or permanent injury through being vaporized or
otherwise dispersed in the air.

Librarian
02-28-2012, 6:17 PM
Hate to bug you again, Brandon, but am I reading this law correctly? Is the limit on the size of the containers, not on the total amount of OC carried?

Carrying multiple 2 oz containers of FOX OC (vs only one 2 oz container) is something I can do on my own and do tonite.

Yes. (e) (1) No person shall purchase, possess, or use any tear gas
weapon that expels a projectile, or that expels the tear gas by any
method other than an aerosol spray, or that contains more than 2.5
ounces net weight of aerosol spray.is per-container, not per-person.

SVT-40
02-28-2012, 6:25 PM
I'd much prefer just to stick my arm out the window (if safe), and squirt away at the thugs with OC and then split.

The problem with you doing as you indicated above is.

If you could just "split" then there would be no justification to spray anyone.

So instead of wasting the time to get your magnum can of OC out of the glove box and roll your window down and waiting for the "thugs" to get close enough to spray why would you not simply drive away?????

Or better yet have the situational awareness to not put yourself in the situation to begin with. It's really that simple.

See a violent "flash mob" forming while in your vehicle.....drive away.

You are excessing about a scenario which will not occur.

Paladin
02-28-2012, 6:28 PM
Yes. is per-container, not per-person.Thanks, Lib. That's the part I underlined in the OP.

With anything that might put me in legal peril, I don't want to trust my own interpretation since there might be other parts of the code that might modify it.

If nothing else, I'm a clean cut middle aged white guy w/o any criminal history who drives a Prius. I don't fit the profile of a typical BG, so I could get off w/a warning even if we're both wrong.... ;)

Paladin
02-28-2012, 6:36 PM
The problem with you doing as you indicated above is.

If you could just "split" then there would be no justification to spray anyone.

So instead of wasting the time to get your magnum can of OC out of the glove box and roll your window down and waiting for the "thugs" to get close enough to spray why would you not simply drive away?????

Or better yet have the situational awareness to not put yourself in the situation to begin with. It's really that simple.

See a violent "flash mob" forming while in your vehicle.....drive away.

You are excessing about a scenario which will not occur.Never said I could "just split" without OCing first.

Sometimes people have been blocked in by traffic and unable to "just split."

Some of the flash rob/mob attacks are totally unexpected, w/o any warning. Seemingly out of nowhere, a mob of thugs come running and rioting/mugging. IIRC, Chicago had that happen a couple of times last summer. This was in wealthy "white" shopping areas near the lake where black "youths" from other towns drove miles in to just partake of this "event." So, while situational awareness is necessary, it is not sufficient in itself to avoid this scenario. You don't always have a clear path to escape when you need it.

nicki
02-29-2012, 1:58 AM
If someone is standing in front of our car, most of us would hesitate to actually run someone over.

Typically a flashmob will attack a car where the person can't drive away, for instance some car stuck behind another car at a red light.

To the OP, pepper spray used to be banned, then it became licensed, then a few years back they did away with the license.

Why is there a 2 ounce limit, probably because no one has thought about sponsoring a bill to remove the limit.

While this is a "Gun Forum", other self defense tools, especially the non lethal ones should be more available.

Who knows, maybe this is a "second amendment issue" since this "burdens" the "right of self defense" by severly limiting functionality of a pepper spray arm for self defense.:eek:

Nicki

CrazyPhuD
02-29-2012, 3:02 AM
Just design a pepper spray gatling gun with each charge containing < 2.5 Oz of aerosol.

TheBest
02-29-2012, 6:29 AM
Why not just buy bear mace (8 oz) and use it on people? Only if you're in a life or death situation...

Quiet
02-29-2012, 10:25 PM
Why not just buy bear mace (8 oz) and use it on people? Only if you're in a life or death situation...

Bear mace is classified as an economic posion.
Hence the reason why it can be legally obtain in a container holding more than 2.5 oz.

Technically, the use of a posion aganist a person is deadly force.

So if it is determined the use of such aganist a person was not done in self-defense (fear for life or great bodily injury), the person using it may be charged with assault with a deadly weapon (depends on the responding LEOs and the DA's Office).

Whereas, pepper spray can be legally used in self defense where less-than-lethal force is being used.

SVT-40
03-01-2012, 2:42 PM
Never said I could "just split" without OCing first.

How are you going to spray someone in front of your car? That would mean you would have to roll the window down and reach outside and around the door pillar. That would give the "mob" the opportunity to grab your arm and pull you from the car.

Besides just because you sprayed them if they were in front of your car that would not make them move. They would still be in front of your car.

Besides it takes about ten seconds for pepper spray to actually have it's desired effect. Far to much time for them to "swarm" you as I said with your arem out the open window.

Sometimes people have been blocked in by traffic and unable to "just split."

If I were really attacked in that scenario and felt I was in fear for my life to heck with the cars around me. It would be pedal to the floor, back and forth drive to reverse. I seriously doubt any attackers would just allow themselves to be squished my my car. They would either flee or die.


Some of the flash rob/mob attacks are totally unexpected, w/o any warning. Seemingly out of nowhere, a mob of thugs come running and rioting/mugging. IIRC, Chicago had that happen a couple of times last summer. This was in wealthy "white" shopping areas near the lake where black "youths" from other towns drove miles in to just partake of this "event." So, while situational awareness is necessary, it is not sufficient in itself to avoid this scenario. You don't always have a clear path to escape when you need it.

Bull, people don't appear out of nowhere. If you're in your car and don't go about you business with your eyes closed it would be clear to anyone with the slightest bit of common sense as to what was happening.

Common you make your own "clear path" a 3,000 pound car will easily move just about anything from ones path. It only depends on just how motivated you are to survive.....

Only "sheeple" not have clear paths!!!

vantec08
03-01-2012, 3:01 PM
I have NEVER understood why 3 oz. is dangerous, evil, nasty, caca - - (you furnish the adjective) but 2.5 isnt.

TheBest
03-01-2012, 3:14 PM
Bear mace is classified as an economic posion.
Hence the reason why it can be legally obtain in a container holding more than 2.5 oz.

Technically, the use of a posion aganist a person is deadly force.

So if it is determined the use of such aganist a person was not done in self-defense (fear for life or great bodily injury), the person using it may be charged with assault with a deadly weapon (depends on the responding LEOs and the DA's Office).

Whereas, pepper spray can be legally used in self defense where less-than-lethal force is being used.
Good point, but when you're at the juncture of using any OC spray, isn't it already life/death, so using it would qualify self defense?

I know people discharge pepper spray willy-nilly (Black Friday 2011), but they were charged with a crime (I believe).

Paladin
03-01-2012, 6:05 PM
How are you going to spray someone in front of your car? That would mean you would have to roll the window down and reach outside and around the door pillar. That would give the "mob" the opportunity to grab your arm and pull you from the car.

Besides just because you sprayed them if they were in front of your car that would not make them move. They would still be in front of your car.

Besides it takes about ten seconds for pepper spray to actually have it's desired effect. Far to much time for them to "swarm" you as I said with your arem out the open window.



If I were really attacked in that scenario and felt I was in fear for my life to heck with the cars around me. It would be pedal to the floor, back and forth drive to reverse. I seriously doubt any attackers would just allow themselves to be squished my my car. They would either flee or die.




Bull, people don't appear out of nowhere. If you're in your car and don't go about you business with your eyes closed it would be clear to anyone with the slightest bit of common sense as to what was happening.

Common you make your own "clear path" a 3,000 pound car will easily move just about anything from ones path. It only depends on just how motivated you are to survive.....

Only "sheeple" not have clear paths!!!
Let's just respect each others' opinions and let this thread get back on topic re. how difficult it would be to change the law re. the 2.5 oz OC limit.

Or you can start a new thread re. scenarios where OC would be appropriate and the tactics and techniques for its use.

Fair enough?

Paladin
03-01-2012, 6:09 PM
Good point, but when you're at the juncture of using any OC spray, isn't it already life/death, so using it would qualify self defense?No, OC is legal to use for self-defense from both non-lethal and lethal/severe bodily injury threats

I know people discharge pepper spray willy-nilly (Black Friday 2011), but they were charged with a crime (I believe).IIRC, using OC is legal for self-defense ONLY. Otherwise, using it on someone is a crime.

Patrick Aherne
03-01-2012, 9:55 PM
The difference between a 2.5 oz and 4 oz can is moot. You don't really get that much more product in the bigger can. Both suck for a crowd like you describe. It takes a Mk-9 canister to spread the crowd joy. Even that is less effective than driving away. ALWAYS stop far enough back from the car in front of you to see their wheels; leave a spcae cushion to drive away when you come up to lights. If you are that concerned, get a vehicle that can hop curbs and sidewalks without blowing a tire. Even with multiple guns in the car, we teach officers to drive out of situations like this. Fighting in a car is bad for your health.

Quiet
03-01-2012, 9:57 PM
Good point, but when you're at the juncture of using any OC spray, isn't it already life/death, so using it would qualify self defense?

I know people discharge pepper spray willy-nilly (Black Friday 2011), but they were charged with a crime (I believe).

Pepper spray can only be used in self-defense, including non-lethal self-defense.

Examples...
Someone tries to stab you with a knife, you pepper spray them = legal
Someone tries to punch you, you pepper spray them = legal
Someone yells at you, you pepper spray them = illegal
Someone tries to stab you with a knife, you "bear spray" them = legal
Someone tries to punch you, you "bear spray" them = illegal
Someone yells at you, you "bear spray" them = illegal

cacop
03-01-2012, 10:11 PM
You know what someone wrote about in a gun rag a few years back?

Fire extinguishers.

He wrote about how he pulled over to the side of the road to help out with some sort of emergency. It wasn't clear what kind of emergency when he got out of the car. Shortly after the emergency was cleared he noticed two truckers carrying fire extinguishers even though there was no fire. He asked about it and they told him they were great for self defence for their jobs.

They blend it easily. They don't scream weapon. They are legal no matter where you go in the country. You can either spray someone with it or you can hit them with it.

Just saying why only rely on pepper spray?

BTW at work we use the dinky person use ones. Our theory if we use them we can pretty much junk them with no big loss immeidately after first use. They expire pretty fast for how infrequently we use them. Why waste money on a bigger container?

stix213
03-01-2012, 10:45 PM
Can you just tape two 2.5oz sprays together? So you have 5oz available from two different spray bottles side by side?

vantec08
03-02-2012, 3:40 AM
Can you just tape two 2.5oz sprays together? So you have 5oz available from two different spray bottles side by side?


I have no doubt CA would call that "defeating legislative intent" and charging you with -- felonious constipation or something.

el chivo
03-02-2012, 1:01 PM
I have no doubt CA would call that "defeating legislative intent" and charging you with -- felonious constipation or something.

since when is it illegal to defeat legislative intent?

vantec08
03-02-2012, 1:53 PM
since when is it illegal to defeat legislative intent?



. . .since anything that attempts to defeat legislative intent is prosecuted anyway.

Decoligny
03-02-2012, 2:11 PM
Well, the limit is 2.5 oz per pepper spray container.

You just need to find the correct size of spray cannister that will fit into a shotgun shell bandoleer.

Squeeze one dry and grab the next one. And if you have multiple passengers in the car, everyone can grab a cannister and spray from their own window.

http://www.cactustactical.com/osc/images/art/galati/shotgunbandolier.jpg

MudCamper
03-02-2012, 7:38 PM
Well, the limit is 2.5 oz per pepper spray container.

You just need to find the correct size of spray cannister that will fit into a shotgun shell bandoleer.

Squeeze one dry and grab the next one. And if you have multiple passengers in the car, everyone can grab a cannister and spray from their own window.

http://www.cactustactical.com/osc/images/art/galati/shotgunbandolier.jpg

Nice! :)

In all seriousness though, to the OP, let's get LTC first. Then let's get higher magazine capacity.

Dreaded Claymore
03-02-2012, 7:46 PM
If someone is standing in front of our car, most of us would hesitate to actually run someone over.
But evidently not all of us:
Common you make your own "clear path" a 3,000 pound car will easily move just about anything from ones path. It only depends on just how motivated you are to survive.....

Only "sheeple" not have clear paths!!!
:facepalm:

SVT-40
03-02-2012, 8:26 PM
Absolutely right!!!!! peddle to the metal. If you intend on doing me or my family serious harm you forfeit any obligation on my part to fight fair.

In any real fight the only thing that matters is winning.

G60
03-02-2012, 8:56 PM
How about concealed fixed blades first? :p

rugershooter
03-03-2012, 3:54 PM
But evidently not all of us:

:facepalm:

Absolutely right!!!!! peddle to the metal. If you intend on doing me or my family serious harm you forfeit any obligation on my part to fight fair.

In any real fight the only thing that matters is winning.

A vehicle, even a small car, is a very effective weapon if you can use it as such. I would not hesitate to run someone over with my vehicle in a self defense situation.

ETA. Anybody know about the BSIS OC/Tear Gas permits? I got one when I did private security and was able to buy +2.5 oz pepper spray. Can people carry/use them even if they're not on duty or (like me) don't work in security anymore? There is no expiration date on the permit.

Paladin
03-03-2012, 6:05 PM
How about concealed fixed blades first? :p

Best to ck in with....

I know there's Knife Rights (http://kniferights.org/), but I don't know of pro-OC political orgs.

Quiet
03-03-2012, 9:26 PM
ETA. Anybody know about the BSIS OC/Tear Gas permits? I got one when I did private security and was able to buy +2.5 oz pepper spray. Can people carry/use them even if they're not on duty or (like me) don't work in security anymore? There is no expiration date on the permit.

BSIS OC/Tear Gas permit allows the permitee to acquire/possess tear gas weapons that are greater than 2.5 oz for use while on duty.

Off-duty use is not legal.


Penal Code 22835
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a person holding a license as a private investigator pursuant to Chapter 11.3 (commencing with Section 7512) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code, or as a private patrol operator pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7580) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code, or a uniformed patrolperson employee of a private patrol operator, may purchase, possess, or transport any tear gas weapon, if it is used solely for defensive purposes in the course of the activity for which the license was issued and if the person has satisfactorily completed a course of instruction approved by the Department of Consumer Affairs in the use of tear gas.

rugershooter
03-04-2012, 12:53 AM
BSIS OC/Tear Gas permit allows the permitee to acquire/possess tear gas weapons that are greater than 2.5 oz for use while on duty.

Off-duty use is not legal.


Penal Code 22835
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a person holding a license as a private investigator pursuant to Chapter 11.3 (commencing with Section 7512) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code, or as a private patrol operator pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7580) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code, or a uniformed patrolperson employee of a private patrol operator, may purchase, possess, or transport any tear gas weapon, if it is used solely for defensive purposes in the course of the activity for which the license was issued and if the person has satisfactorily completed a course of instruction approved by the Department of Consumer Affairs in the use of tear gas.

Thanks. Good to know. I have a 4 oz can of pepper spray from when I was in security and have been thinking about keeping it in the door pocket in my car. Guess I can't do that...